Though the cruising is a bit out of control. Maybe they could designate an area where it's tolerated, instead of basically letting it run rampant throughout the park. In the Netherlands, they even put up signs for cruising areas, so families know to keep children out and men understand not to venture out of those spots. The idea being you aren't going to erase the problem by law enforcement alone.

 

 

^Yeah, that's definitely going to happen in Cincinnati...  :roll:

 

Kind of shocked that Cranley is interested in investing in the city. As a DAAP student, I've thought about the land bridge idea before and actually kind of like this whole park idea.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2014/03/could-burnet-woods-be-cincinnatis-next-great.html

 

Instead of an expensive pedestrian bridge, we should make MLK into a complete street that serves pedestrians, not just cars, and is easier to cross.

 

Totally agree with that, people (including me) fly down that street all the time.  Traffic calming to make it more pedestrian friendly would probably help alot.  There are already a lot of pedestrians around there, but this would make them feel safer and probably help to increase number of pedestrians.

I remember there was a plan floated around a few years ago to put a restaurant in the park.  I seem to remember the preliminary sketches showed it almost as a treehouse? There might have even been a poll to see what kind of restaurant was desired for the park. I think a restaurant in the park would really help bring some visibility into the park, and would probably take care of some of the creepy elements.

 

I think a biergarten would be really cool in the park. Though I don't know if it's really needed. I think if you create more hard surfaces and plantings near the southern end of the park to encourage students and faculty to go there to read, study, work on schoolwork, hanging out with friends, etc in an open area with plenty of facilities the rest of the park would flourish. Obviously incrementally improving the rest of the space (better lighting, for instance) but leaving it a wooded area with the same functionality as now.

 

As it stands now the southern end is kind of a dead zone where no one wants to hang out and if people got used to using that space regularly, the rest of the space would probably be better used too.

I went to a lecture of the history of some of the parks and they showed renderings of a Master Plan for Burnet Woods which included thinks like

1. Restoring/exposing the creek bed that would have run from the northwest corner to the pond

2. Removing some of the roadways including a plan to eliminate the entrance/exit nearest the HH Richardson/Chamber of Commerce sculpture.

Though the cruising is a bit out of control. Maybe they could designate an area where it's tolerated, instead of basically letting it run rampant throughout the park. In the Netherlands, they even put up signs for cruising areas, so families know to keep children out and men understand not to venture out of those spots. The idea being you aren't going to erase the problem by law enforcement alone.

^Yeah, that's definitely going to happen in Cincinnati...  :roll:

 

Well they seem to tolerate it implicitly now, which is in some sense a more extreme stance since it covers the whole park. I know some would disagree, but I don't see "Arrest the queers!" as an appropriate response, but the status quo is also not okay.

 

All of UC was once part of Burnet Woods.  The city sold over 80 acres of land to UC in 2 separate purchases.  The city should consider selling more of it and allowing UC to expand northward.

 

What would be the benefit of doing that? UC has plenty of room to build. I can just imagine the southern end of Burnet Woods becoming a big parking lot. What an improvement that would be (/s).

The benefit would be to open it up and make it more welcoming.  They wouldn't have to site clear it, or make it look like Calhoun and McMillan, they could blend the buildings with the landscape.  Who said anything about turning it into a parking lot?

Originally the DAAP building was in the park, at least what was left of it by the 1950s.  Wilson, Braunstein, and Old Chem were on the northern edge of campus and everything above that was Burnett Woods.  As they built the mega-arterial MLK and added onto DAAP (going from just the small Alms building to the much larger DAA then Wolfson then finally the Aronoff addition), plus the parking garages, Rieveschl and Crosley, there's not really any "park" left.  Having something be low-impact and integrated with a park is difficult at best in a dense urban neighborhood with institutions that want to grow and have lots of parking and automobile access at the same time. 

They should consider banning traffic through the woods altogether....

Didn't Burnet Woods oringally go all the way to McMillan? When U.C. (or its predecessor) moved out of Over-the-Rhine, they built in Burnet Woods, gradually expanding north, until MLK Drive finally provided a barrier. The Clifton neighborhood is very sensitive about any new construction of any kind in Burnet Woods. (Jefferson also provided a barrier on the east side of U.C., which now forms a "superblock".

 

Old maps remind one of Central Park in New York City: a massive rectangle of green space in the middle of a developed area.

 

The trails in Burnet Woods are actually very well-used. And yes, although it doesn't have a reputation for crime, it does have a reputation for being sketchy, and not just in the way mentioned above.

 

When I was about 6 years old, my grandfather took me to Burnet Woods. He showed me the slide, and told me that when he was my age, he rode down the same slide. I always thought that was neat.

Yes, as I stated, the city sold over 80 acres to UC in 2 purchases in the 1800's.  The first 70 or so acres were from Calhoun north.  The 2nd 10+ acres were the south side of St. Clair Ave.  I don't know when St. Clair Ave. was first built.

 

All of UC was once in Burnet Woods.

I lived in the Clifton area for 10 years and never recall Burnett getting much use. Would be nice to be able to tailgate in there

for some Football games. It does seem very underutilized.

UC could start by making the side that faces the park more inviting for pedestrians. Giving UC carte blanche to build on Burnet Woods would be a disaster. If UC wants to build more, it can look at the Wilson Auditorium site, for one. Or the under-utilized Sigma Sigma Commons. It could also give some money to make some nicer entrances to the park.

 

If you think about it, the problem is more the streets around the park than the park itself. Only Ludlow/Jefferson has something resembling a human-scaled, pedestrian-friendly environment. But it happens to be right at that corner that the business district starts to drop off and density drops down. MLK is the worst offender. Bishop has some access, but there wouldn't be much reason to use it unless you're living on that street (and I bet people who live on Bishop use the park all the time). The hospitals and HUC are not exactly going to feed a lot of people into the park, nor invite park users to walk or enter from Clifton Ave.

 

I guess you could create an anchor business or something, but the more I think about it, the park isn't the park's problem. It's the streets that border the park. Though I do think making some nice entrances would help invite people to come in. A pedestrian bridge from UC is not a good "solution" to anything, and giving land to UC would create more problems than it solves.

 

1. Complete the streets around the park (especially MLK).

2. Landscaping, structures, programming at park entrances.

3. Address the public sex problem.

 

That's pretty much it. The playgrounds could be updated. Maybe put in a "splashground" or something.

I lived in the Clifton area for 10 years and never recall Burnett getting much use. Would be nice to be able to tailgate in there

for some Football games. It does seem very underutilized.

 

What is stopping people from doing that? The lack of surface parking?

 

Here we go with the "let's pave over Burnet Woods," which I guarantee would be the result of giving any of the property to UC.

Well they seem to tolerate it implicitly now, which is in some sense a more extreme stance since it covers the whole park. I know some would disagree, but I don't see "Arrest the queers!" as an appropriate response, but the status quo is also not okay.

 

All of UC was once part of Burnet Woods.  The city sold over 80 acres of land to UC in 2 separate purchases.  The city should consider selling more of it and allowing UC to expand northward.

 

What would be the benefit of doing that? UC has plenty of room to build. I can just imagine the southern end of Burnet Woods becoming a big parking lot. What an improvement that would be (/s).

 

Does UC want or need to expand West Campus? There are several places on campus they could build new buildings. They could also expand into Corryville like they have done with the Niehoff Studio, or build new buildings at East Campus. I also don't see UC having the budget to buy and maintain more land, even if they wanted to and the city was willing to sell.

I lived in the Clifton area for 10 years and never recall Burnett getting much use. Would be nice to be able to tailgate in there

for some Football games. It does seem very underutilized.

 

What is stopping people from doing that? The lack of surface parking?

 

Here we go with the "let's pave over Burnet Woods," which I guarantee would be the result of giving any of the property to UC.

There isn't any tailgating in Clifton. No surface parking anywhere. Utilizing the park would be good though.

Students might use the park more if there were campus buildings on the north side of MLK.  For example a hi-rise dorm at the NE corner of Clifton and MLK could use the park as its "yard". 

 

As-is the MLK streetscape is about as horrible as they come.  Zero buildings on the UC side front the street -- they all float in space with no reference point.  They don't face in any particular direction and they don't front a "natural" street.  Even though the 3 sisters are in line with the obliterated street grid, they too float ambiguously.  Sigma Sigma Commons gets zero use because it's not an inviting space.  It's a nebulous, oddly sloped space and the buildings that all face it have hostile characteristics.  Also I absolutely hate the University Ave. traffic circle.  The road should be re-extended to dead-end at the engineering building and future buildings should line it. 

As a student, I was always upset when they tore up the central (cheapest) parking lot to install the ribbon of greenspace and Sigma Sigma Commons.  The campus, despite what the university might wish, is a commuter campus.  Taking away the cheapest parking to put in a greenspace no one uses was a slap in the face to the students.

As a student, I was always upset when they tore up the central (cheapest) parking lot to install the ribbon of greenspace and Sigma Sigma Commons.  The campus, despite what the university might wish, is a commuter campus.  Taking away the cheapest parking to put in a greenspace no one uses was a slap in the face to the students.

 

UC is no longer a commuter campus and hasn't been for over a decade. Removing a horrible surface of asphalt through the middle of prime campus space was a good move. As is, they should have put in some building space, or maybe a large underground parking deck and with a building over top. Unfortunately, the only part of the green that is ever much used is the lawn where lots of kids play frisbee or pick-up football/soccer.

... the problem is more the streets around the park than the park itself. ...

 

Totally agree.  This is the real problem with the park. 

That landscape urbanism between Linder and the sisters isn't doing anybody any good.

... the problem is more the streets around the park than the park itself. ...

 

Totally agree.  This is the real problem with the park. 

 

^ I would like to have trees and medians all the way down clifton like they have up by the law college, also the same thing on MLK.

A round -a-bout at the corner of MLK and clifton with a fountain in the middle would help slow the flow of trafic, and change the speed limit around campus to 25 from 35 (or enforce the posted speed limit)

That landscape urbanism between Linder and the sisters isn't doing anybody any good.

 

Once you get away from the old campus between Clifton Ave. and Nippert Stadium, UC is a total mess.  I get so upset when the "campus" wins architectural awards.  Everything is floating out there even more randomly than new colleges like NKU or Wright State, and what is floating is all B-sides to famous singles.  The Vontz Center is probably the worst Frank Gehry building in the world.  It floats at that corner like a half-filled helium balloon in a parking lot.  Nobody uses the green space and I don't think I've ever seen somebody walk in or out of the building.  The lights are never on at night.   

 

I remember when all that construction was underway in the late 90s and early 2000s hoping that I was wrong.  I'm just amazed that a decade removed from the bulldozers so few people are willing to say the campus sucks out loud. 

 

 

... the problem is more the streets around the park than the park itself. ...

 

Totally agree.  This is the real problem with the park. 

 

^ I would like to have trees and medians all the way down clifton like they have up by the law college, also the same thing on MLK.

A round -a-bout at the corner of MLK and clifton with a fountain in the middle would help slow the flow of trafic, and change the speed limit around campus to 25 from 35 (or enforce the posted speed limit)

 

I would like to see some motorists be ticketed for flying through crosswalks as pedestrians wait, as opposed to the occasional cop waiting to ticket students for jaywalking. But, you're very right, some legitimate traffic calming would do wonders for the entire area.

That landscape urbanism between Linder and the sisters isn't doing anybody any good.

 

Once you get away from the old campus between Clifton Ave. and Nippert Stadium, UC is a total mess.  I get so upset when the "campus" wins architectural awards.  Everything is floating out there even more randomly than new colleges like NKU or Wright State, and what is floating is all B-sides to famous singles.  The Vontz Center is probably the worst Frank Gehry building in the world.  It floats at that corner like a half-filled helium balloon in a parking lot.  Nobody uses the green space and I don't think I've ever seen somebody walk in or out of the building.  The lights are never on at night.   

 

I remember when all that construction was underway in the late 90s and early 2000s hoping that I was wrong.  I'm just amazed that a decade removed from the bulldozers so few people are willing to say the campus sucks out loud. 

 

 

 

I'll say it! I liked Shawnee State's and Marshall's campuses better even though they are considered "inferior" by the starchitecture and landscape urbanism crowd. I never connected with UC like I did my other schools.

 

And I can tell OSU was also way better before 1965 then it is now.

That landscape urbanism between Linder and the sisters isn't doing anybody any good.

 

Once you get away from the old campus between Clifton Ave. and Nippert Stadium, UC is a total mess.  I get so upset when the "campus" wins architectural awards.  Everything is floating out there even more randomly than new colleges like NKU or Wright State, and what is floating is all B-sides to famous singles.  The Vontz Center is probably the worst Frank Gehry building in the world.  It floats at that corner like a half-filled helium balloon in a parking lot.  Nobody uses the green space and I don't think I've ever seen somebody walk in or out of the building.  The lights are never on at night.   

 

I remember when all that construction was underway in the late 90s and early 2000s hoping that I was wrong.  I'm just amazed that a decade removed from the bulldozers so few people are willing to say the campus sucks out loud. 

 

 

 

I don't really think you can say UC's campus sucks, especially given what it looked like prior to all the construction.  Surface parking lots were everywhere.  The McMicken Commons and Main Street area are pretty cool, but I agree that much of the rest of the campus seems kind of oddly disjointed.  I've always hated Sigma Sigma commons, and feel like an 'Oval' type of lawn would have been a much better use of the green space. As it currently is, much of the green space is essentially unusable.  Maybe the college of business will get a new building that will help strengthen that side of campus, and better connect it to Sigma Sigma.  I'd say there are definitely areas of campus that could use improvement, but I don't think it's fair to say it sucks over all.

It doesn't suck, if simply for the fact it's compact and easy to get around. Plus the Main Street area really is quite nice after all the improvements. Not to say there isn't a whole lot that could be done to make it better.

 

I think it's interesting Ono is worried about Burnet Woods, when he could simply spruce up Sigma Sigma Commons. I guess he wants improvements on the city's dime. Sigma Sigma is far more of an activity void than Burnet, which sees a lot more activity than you would think based on the conversation in this thread.

UC campus is awesome. 

UC campus is awesome. 

 

I agree. Since most of what I do there is attend football-bball games, I can park for $5, and literally be in my seat in 10 minutes. Want to eat-drink prior to

or post game, no problem, again plenty of options in minutes. 5/3rd Arena is a train wreck though. I think the Main Street area turned out great.

Not a fan of the Medical Campus set up though. Is what it is. At least for me connectivity, in an Urban Campus, is a bigger deal than Individually

designed buildings.

 

Ono is on the right track with wanting Burnett improved and utilized. Seems like a wasted city asset.

 

Maybe UC should start holding some events in the park. If students became more familiar with it, rather than seeing it abstractly as some sketchy place they think they shouldn't go to, maybe they'd start going on their own. A lot could be done without any capital expenditures, if the goal is to get students interested in using the park. I mean...the park is there...and it's pretty nice, as is...if there is a demand for it that isn't being met, UC could do a little marketing.

 

Hold a frisbee golf day, have some bands play at the band stand, have a fishing day at the pond, do a scavenger hunt including some of the park landmarks (fountain, concrete slide, bandstand, etc.)... Lots of possibilities.

 

But, by god, if you're going to throw down a bunch of capital dollars, don't throw it at a bridge over MLK.

ninja produce good idea

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSqoyk9FenQ

Maybe UC should start holding some events in the park. If students became more familiar with it, rather than seeing it abstractly as some sketchy place they think they shouldn't go to, maybe they'd start going on their own.

Didn't M$oft shoot a Zune ad there?

I mean, the place has been established as cool.

Nothing involving Zune is cool.

That landscape urbanism between Linder and the sisters isn't doing anybody any good.

 

Once you get away from the old campus between Clifton Ave. and Nippert Stadium, UC is a total mess.  I get so upset when the "campus" wins architectural awards.  Everything is floating out there even more randomly than new colleges like NKU or Wright State, and what is floating is all B-sides to famous singles.  The Vontz Center is probably the worst Frank Gehry building in the world.  It floats at that corner like a half-filled helium balloon in a parking lot.  Nobody uses the green space and I don't think I've ever seen somebody walk in or out of the building.  The lights are never on at night.   

 

I remember when all that construction was underway in the late 90s and early 2000s hoping that I was wrong.  I'm just amazed that a decade removed from the bulldozers so few people are willing to say the campus sucks out loud. 

 

 

 

I don't really think you can say UC's campus sucks, especially given what it looked like prior to all the construction.  Surface parking lots were everywhere.  The McMicken Commons and Main Street area are pretty cool, but I agree that much of the rest of the campus seems kind of oddly disjointed.  I've always hated Sigma Sigma commons, and feel like an 'Oval' type of lawn would have been a much better use of the green space. As it currently is, much of the green space is essentially unusable.  Maybe the college of business will get a new building that will help strengthen that side of campus, and better connect it to Sigma Sigma.  I'd say there are definitely areas of campus that could use improvement, but I don't think it's fair to say it sucks over all.

 

Maybe UC has too many separate green spaces. McMicken Commons was used all the time. The true "quad" was not used by students as much. Sigma Sigma Commons (the big grassy area by the College of Business) was only really active during special events. College of Business definitely feels isolated from the rest of campus. A new academic building replacing the outdated Alumni Center would help bridge that gap.

I wish the campus would build a tunnel between the medical campus and the main campus and promote walking and/or biking between them.  It seems ridiculous that people take those shuttle simply because it's an impossible intersection to cross.  If people are walking between them the space would really get activated.

That landscape urbanism between Linder and the sisters isn't doing anybody any good.

 

Once you get away from the old campus between Clifton Ave. and Nippert Stadium, UC is a total mess.  I get so upset when the "campus" wins architectural awards.  Everything is floating out there even more randomly than new colleges like NKU or Wright State, and what is floating is all B-sides to famous singles.  The Vontz Center is probably the worst Frank Gehry building in the world.  It floats at that corner like a half-filled helium balloon in a parking lot.  Nobody uses the green space and I don't think I've ever seen somebody walk in or out of the building.  The lights are never on at night.   

 

I remember when all that construction was underway in the late 90s and early 2000s hoping that I was wrong.  I'm just amazed that a decade removed from the bulldozers so few people are willing to say the campus sucks out loud. 

 

 

 

I don't really think you can say UC's campus sucks, especially given what it looked like prior to all the construction.  Surface parking lots were everywhere.  The McMicken Commons and Main Street area are pretty cool, but I agree that much of the rest of the campus seems kind of oddly disjointed.  I've always hated Sigma Sigma commons, and feel like an 'Oval' type of lawn would have been a much better use of the green space. As it currently is, much of the green space is essentially unusable.  Maybe the college of business will get a new building that will help strengthen that side of campus, and better connect it to Sigma Sigma.  I'd say there are definitely areas of campus that could use improvement, but I don't think it's fair to say it sucks over all.

 

Maybe UC has too many separate green spaces. McMicken Commons was used all the time. The true "quad" was not used by students as much. Sigma Sigma Commons (the big grassy area by the College of Business) was only really active during special events. College of Business definitely feels isolated from the rest of campus. A new academic building replacing the outdated Alumni Center would help bridge that gap.

 

Orgins of what UC's campus is today, http://www.hargreaves.com/projects/Academic/UCinnMP/

 

Hargreaves is the firm/planner that Steger brought in a long time ago.

I wish the campus would build a tunnel between the medical campus and the main campus and promote walking and/or biking between them.  It seems ridiculous that people take those shuttle simply because it's an impossible intersection to cross.  If people are walking between them the space would really get activated.

 

We don't need a tunnel or a bridge. We just need the that intersection (and MLK in general) to be redesigned to be more pedestrian friendly and easier to cross. The traffic engineers went crazy and made it so "efficient" for cars that people can't cross.

I have to respectfully disagree with those who think the campus is bad.  I'm no professional but I have been a "user" for years. 

 

The easiest argument I can make is to remember what the campus looked and felt like in say, 1992.  It has been completely transformed for the better I almost every area.

 

It seems by nature of the topography that the campus was define to feel segmented. 

Goessling agrees to sell the old IGA building to a neighborhood coop

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/clifton/co-op-plans-to-open-grocery-at-former-kellers-iga-site-in-clifton

Now, we can wait 6 months....

So apparently the City closed Clifton Hills Avenue for traffic coming from Central Parkway over to Ludlow?  I saw someone mention this in the streetcar thread earlier today, and I also noticed it firsthand a couple weekends ago. 

 

I'd be curious to see what the Gaslight district business owners think of this.  For those folks coming from I-74, the Central Parkway exit to Clifton Hills to Ludlow route was the quickest way to the Gaslight District, and this is the route that I would take when I head toward those businesses.  By blocking off Clifton Hills, it appears this would have a decrease on the traffic on Ludlow?  Less traffic = few customers?  I know that the CP exit from I-74 eventually goes away with the interstate reconstruction, but with so many other bars/restaurants up in the Clifton area, this seems like it would have a negative impact on the Ludlow business district.

buncha yuppie b@stards probably petitioned the city for it.

Actually, it was the request of CTM & all of the (mostly) middle aged residents of Clifton Hills Ave. If you've ever been to Clifton Hills Ave you would know the homes are not owned by "yuppie bastards".

 

Apparently, the majority of the people who use Clifton Hills as a cut through are Hospital employees who don't want to take MLK.  The City said the majority of the traffic on CH as a cut through occurs between 6-8AM and 5-7PM.  I don't think this is the best solution, but Clifton Hills is a strange street. It has no sidewalks and no street lights (was built post war).  Many students at DePaul Cristo Rey get dropped off on the bus stops on Ludlow and walk in the street on Clifton Hills to get to school.  Residents have asked for sidewalks, but City has said it's too expensive.

Am I the only one that thinks you're not allowed to bitch about traffic using your road as a cut through when it's designed as a cut through? It's not like the road was a dead end when they moved in and was modified. Their lack of observation when purchasing a house shouldn't affect others.

 

It's also absurd when I can guarantee these people have used other streets as cut-throughs at some point or another. Deal with it.

While I understand the resident's concerns, maybe they should have waited until the new I-75/MLK/Central Parkway/Hopple intersection is completed, then cars would have not reason to use this cut through.  But now traffic is such a cluster, all through streets should serve as emergency relief.

So with Clifton Hills closed to through traffic, is it possible to cut through Cincinnati State's campus from CP over to Ludlow? 

 

In looking at Google Maps aerials, I don't see any gates that would prohibit cutting through their campus. 

So with Clifton Hills closed to through traffic, is it possible to cut through Cincinnati State's campus from CP over to Ludlow? 

 

In looking at Google Maps aerials, I don't see any gates that would prohibit cutting through their campus. 

 

^

Yes this can be done.

So with Clifton Hills closed to through traffic, is it possible to cut through Cincinnati State's campus from CP over to Ludlow? 

 

In looking at Google Maps aerials, I don't see any gates that would prohibit cutting through their campus. 

 

Yes it can be done.  But the way REAL west siders do it is to simply pull a U when exiting from I-75. 

 

The Clifton Market seems to be doing pretty well in fundraising to purchase the old IGA and open a co-op. Shares are $200. If you have extra money lying around you can also choose to provide a loan to the market of $1,000 or more.

 

So far they have 696 shareholders and they have raised about 1/3 of the money needed to proceed.

While I understand the resident's concerns, maybe they should have waited until the new I-75/MLK/Central Parkway/Hopple intersection is completed, then cars would have not reason to use this cut through.  But now traffic is such a cluster, all through streets should serve as emergency relief.

 

Did you know that this intersection cannot be completed on the original timeline set by ODOT?  It is now in delay because Cinci State asked for the I-74 exit to Central Pkwy to remain open.  City pushed for this to support Cinci State.  ODOT has now added at least 3-4 more years to the project while City and Cinci State figure out a new connector road project.  This delay is preventing the new ramp from Hopple intersection to I-75 north from being installed.  Further, the protected bikeway on Central Pkwy cannot be extended all the way to Ludlow because of all these delays.

 

The residents were willing to wait until the original schedule, but the extra years ODOT now indicates was too much for residents to handle.  New traffic studies indicate Clifton Hills Ave was carrying several thousand cars per day.  Most of them during early morning rush and second big spike at evening rush.  It's a real mess.  Primary concerns are safety for all the kids walking from Ludlow to Cristo Del Ray school.  There are no sidewalks and way too many cars.

The Clifton Market seems to be doing pretty well in fundraising to purchase the old IGA and open a co-op. Shares are $200. If you have extra money lying around you can also choose to provide a loan to the market of $1,000 or more.

 

So far they have 696 shareholders and they have raised about 1/3 of the money needed to proceed.

 

The co-op is paying the mortgage for Mr. Goessling.  I don't know where they are getting the money to do that.  Seems to me that they are biting off too large a project.  They advise they need a total of around $4 million to buy, build out, stock, etc. the store.  Worse is they are overpaying for the building.  It is not worth $1.6 million.  Worth closer to $1 million.  So those loans are going towards overpayment of the building.  Why are they paying so much?  I guess they feel bad that Mr. Goessling is under water on his mortgage.  That's a bad business decision by the co-op, and this is not a good way to launch a new business.    I'm not anti co-op.  I think a co-op in a smaller building would be a smarter way to startup.  There's the old Jagdeep's Grocery spot that would work nicely.

The I-74/Central Parkway ramp is completely unnecessary.  Useful, of course, back when Lasalle High School held their five football games each fall at CTC.  Cranley is doing all of this based on that obscure cultural memory aimed at *county* voters who *might* vote for him in a congressional election *if* they're actually in his district, which LaSalle MOMS and alumni generally will not be.