N. Ky. riverfront cities use divide approach to conquer growth

By Jeffrey McMurray, Associated Press | July 6, 2007

 

With business, housing and entertainment each carving out its own niche in separate cities along the Kentucky side of the Ohio River, it would almost seem northern Kentucky's growth was following some master script written decades ago.

 

Not so. The building that started it all - a $40 million convention center - initially didn't seem to have a logical home anywhere among the riverfront communities of Covington, Newport and Bellevue when it opened in 1998.

 

"It was like the dead atheist - a project all dressed up but with no place to go," said Wally Pagan, who leads Southbank Partners, a group dedicated to resurrecting the Kentucky side of the river.  Ultimately developers settled on a crime-riddled Covington neighborhood dating back to the 1960s that featured a used car lot, a paper plates manufacturer, a few hotels and office buildings, but little else.

 

Read full article here:

http://www.kentucky.com/181/story/117121.html

There is a lot of energy down by the river these days. Sweetness...

Riverside Resurgence

The Ascent and Ovation projects are transforming Northern Kentucky into a regional capital

By Dennis O’Connor, The Lane Report | July 2007

 

Sometime in the not-so-distant future, visitors to the north tip of the state will be able to settle into elevated rapid-transit cars to cross the Ohio River from Cincinnati to Northern Kentucky. From that vantage point, they will see Covington’s magnificent new landmark structure, The Ascent at Roebling’s Bridge. The Ascent is architect Daniel Libeskind’s 21-story condominium tower that is redefining the skyline on both sides of the river and will serve as the epicenter of the spectacularly successful RiverCenter development at Kentucky’s apex.

 

To the east, just across the Licking River at its confluence with the Ohio, those future visitors also will catch a glimpse of rising towers interspersed with parklands that make up Ovation, Newport’s mixed-use community that will boast more than one million square feet of office space; 200,000 square feet of retail and more than 1,000 residential units. Ovation will be second only to the Greater Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport in terms of overall regional economic impact.

 

The glance into the crystal ball comes to you courtesy of Vision 2015, Northern Kentucky’s multi-discipline planning project that envisions 50,000 new Northern Kentucky jobs in just more than eight years and a resurgence in housing in the region’s urban core, among myriad other goals. But The Ascent and RiverCenter in Covington – and plans for Newport’s ambitious Ovation community – are pure Bill Butler.

 

Read full article here:

http://www.lanereport.com/articles/article.cfm?id=232

Well, before this article even mentioned Corporex or Bill Butler, I thought to myself it sounds like it was written by the Corporex PR department, then Voila! paragraph 3, Butler/Corporex.  I am all for urban success and I like Covington a lot, but this just sounds like a first class ass kissing to me.

 

“Covington today is considered the best place to live in Greater Cincinnati,” Butler said. “It’s certainly the place to live in the region’s urban sector. It feels like a real neighborhood here. It’s safe to walk around here at night.”

 

 

I am all for positive outlooks too, but come on, that is a pretty bold statement.  Covington is great, but I would say only as far south as maybe 9th St.  I know it is only one man's opinion, and "considered the best place to live" by whom?

Dear Mr Butler,

 

You're full of shi*t.  I have to assume that when the writer of this article mentions the "region" they are really only considering NKY....otherwise the're out of their mind.

 

Ovation will be second only to the Greater Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport in terms of overall regional economic impact.

 

The implication here is that Ovation would have a greater economic impact than downtown Cincinnati?

The regional capital is Cincinnati.  Always has been, always will be.  What a shit article.

A finished Banks project will have a greater economic impact for the region due to the amount of office and retail space in addition to the residential units.  Ovation is almost entirely residential, which it's great to get more people living in the center city, but residential units don't have nearly the same economic impact that office and retail have.

 

Office and retail force more residents into the area, they create a MUCH larger tax base, and have massive spin-offs (business travelers, visitor spending, etc).  This article was obviously written and edited by morons...do they know ANYTHING about economics and economic development processes!?!?

From the article --

 

"Nearly 1,000 housing units are planned for the site, including several townhouses perched atop the flood-control dikes all along the property. About 1.5 million square feet of office space will be peppered throughout the site in office towers, some 400,000 square feet of retail will be added, and plans are in the works for a hotel to anchor the office sector."

We'll see...I'm surprised you're so big on Bill Butler and Co. all of a sudden.  The project is out of touch with market demands of today, and especially what the market demands of 5-10 years down the road will be.  Let's recap:

 

The Banks wants to have 1-2 hotels...NOTL wants 1-2 hotels...Uptown is looking at 2-3 hotel locations.  Can the market really absorb another hotel on top of all that, because you must keep in mind that Ovation will be the last of all these projects to take place?  You can also see how successful the retail portion of NOTL has been, combine that with how much retail space (more highly desired space at that) will be coming with The Banks.  Can the same market absorb even more with this Ovation proposal?  Then there is the office...The Banks keeps upping the amount of office space in that proposal, then you have QCS II ready and waiting for any major tenants and former Convergys building for any smaller tenants.  What is the market that Ovation will tap into?

 

I'm sorry, but Ovation is basically a pipe dream...and if Newport/Bill Butler and Co. try to force this project down the throats of the region they will quickly find out that it will be a financial disaster!

 

I guess we'll wait and see...but with the projects in the pipeline this is the WORST and if you're a potential office/retail tenant wouldn't you want the best location and development?  I tend to think so, and that does not lead someone to Ovation, it leads them to The Banks and the other various projects going on in the center city (including Covington, Newport, Cincinnati).  Ovation is just total crap...and I don't see it being received very well.  Those individuals that would move to that type of project have already moved into the other auto-oriented mid/high rises in Nky.

I'm not. In fact, I haven't even read it through on UrbanOhio or elsewhere, and this is the first pieces that I've read personally that mentions the project (because it really didn't catch my eye).

 

I think that the retail sector of the Ovation proposal _can_ succeed if there is a total build out of up to 1,000 housing units, which can equate to 2,500 residents, going at a 2.5/unit rate (that's what we calculate down here in Lexington for urban developments, at least). Can the market absorb that? Perhaps if it is built in stages -- all depending on funding.

 

But the developer has had a successful track record so far, judging from their other projects. I wouldn't put it past them to actually develop this project in some form or fashion. While it may take years for the project to get off the ground, and while it may be different than originally proposed, it is not like other mega projects that have received similar treatment, such as The Banks. Most projects hit snags.

 

Digging up old articles about RiverCenter (which I found out was the Ashland Inc./office/restaurant complex along the river), the predictions were that the restaurant component would fail and that it would fail to generate any additional traffic for the downtown. It was also predicted by some to put a glut in the Class A office market and to shelve other projects due to this glut, but none of the predictions have come true. Some said the same thing ( and still do, sadly enough ) about Pullman Square in Huntington, that it would put too much retail glut in the market, and that it would be a financial disaster -- which also turned out not true.

 

Point being, this should not be a Cincinnati versus a Northern Kentucky debate. Who cares if this may saturate the office market for The Banks? Who cares if it may look like "crap"? That's your personal opinion, and I can find plenty in Cincinnati that looks like "crap" but I don't because that is counterproductive and defeats the point of these projects. Cities should work together on these projects, and as the first article I posted in this thread put it, northern Kentucky's cities are working together to better position themselves for future developments. One city focuses on residential projects, while another focuses on commericial properties, and so on. While the area around the Ovation project may not scream residential, it has certaintly become revitalized elsewhere with rehabilitations and new development projects, along with suburban sprawl to the south. There is not a lack of residents to fill these jobs and the growth will only continue.

 

It's just where to stick these new residents. Personally, I would like to see them come here -- to the riverfront -- in both cities.

 

BTW, this isn't a "force down the throat" type of deal. It's just another project like The Banks -- no different. I was wondering if the Ky. state legislature would take up the Ovation project at their special meet, but it looks like they will just be focusing on the Peabody Coal coal-to-gas project...

It's not just my personal preferance, but rather my educated opinion.  As a planner (who reviews development plans on a daily basis), this plan SUCKS!!!  Potential tenants can see that and often have consultants that help them with decision making on the best location (where will the best talent want to go, is the location walkable, what is parking like, crime, etc).

 

All in all, Ovation does not stack up well against The Banks...or QCS II....or NOTL hotel(s)...or anything for that matter.  Every other plan in the pipeline has a better plan and/or location than Ovation.  In my educated opinion I don't think that the market conditions will allow for all of it to happen.  With that said, it will be a competitive battle to attract the best tenants to each of these developments.  As I've said before if you're an ESPN Zone where would you like to be...if you're a potential hotel where would you go Cincinnati CBD/NOTL/Covington/Uptown/Ovation?  How about if you're looking for a new HQ...are you going to go to QCS II, The Banks, Covington, or Ovation?

 

With everyone of these scenarios I see Ovation coming up last, so as I was saying...they better build the Taj Mahal if they want to beat out some of these other superior projects.  I'm not worried about Ovation hurting The Banks' potential leasing chances...why, because phase 1 of The Banks will be under way in the next 6 months or so, and will have phase 1 complete by the time that Ovation will even be getting close to ground breaking.  I'm sorry, but these large projects just take time...especially if you want to do it right.

I agree that they will take time -- and let's hope the Banks will get started in six months. Seeing as how it was to start construction years ago, I gave up expecting a reasonable date. Hopefully the shakeup will allow it to progress faster and get that hole covered.

 

As for attracting "ESPN Zone" tenants -- is it really needed? Do we really need major "ESPN Zone"-esque attractors to Ovation? While I can understand big-ticket retailers, attractions, and restaurants at The Banks, seeing as it is between two major stadiums, the riverfront park, and downtown, Ovation is in a much more quiet neighborhood (if you call the vast lots that). I can see Ovation making do with tenants like Applebee's (not saying that is preferred, but something along those lines), dry cleaners, and other traditional tenants that can be supported without an escalated lease. If the state of Kentucky pumps money into the project, as it has with others, then it can become affordable to a wider range of tenants.

 

I'm still not 100% on the project Randy, so don't take me up on my giddyness to get this developed. _Anything_ that is more dense at that location is preferred, and if it can be mixed-use and provide new life into this deserted part of northern Kentucky, the better. It doesn't need to be the "Taj Mahal" by any stretch of the imagination, and neither does The Banks or any other development. They should work in harmony with each other, compliment each other, and work with each other. It doesn't necessairly need to be a competition or a race to the finish.

 

Newport on the Levee... now there is a project that is still relatively isolated. IMO, I would have constructed it as a mixed-use project with a residential component, and focus less on the mall-retail project which is now going downhill. I haven't been to the project in a while, but how is the retail component and restaurant component holding up? I read about a plan to convert some to offices, which would at least pump some money into the development.

Just to clarify...construction dates for The Banks have only been delayed within the past year or so.  Up until that point there was large amounts of political debate...where was GABP going to end up at...who got what revenues between the County/City...what did the Reds/Bengals/CBD tenants think about the project...how was the FWW reconstruction going to figure in...what about light rail...a transit hub...capping over the FWW...what does the park board think/how does it work into their Central Riverfront Park plans?!?!

 

I don't think that many people realize just how complex the issue of The Banks has been over the years.  Some of the complexity can be chalked up to poor leadership/bickering, but much of it was a process that was trying to please all/as many parties involved.

 

The same can be said for Ovation's future...how will it accommodate for a bike trail/riverwalk...how about another crossing over the Licking River...how will it be funded...who gets what revenues...will it affect the already struggling NOTL...does Newport want to bury one project in order to get another one going...how does it work into Covington's redevelopment plans along the Licking River...how about a future streetcar connection!?!?!?  These are important questions that need to be answered, and it does not go quickly.  Before you know it years have gone by...unless that you decide to bypass some or all of these issues, and if that's the case then I feel sorry for the future of Newport/Nky/Cincinnati Riverfronts.

 

I would love for it to be a fantastic project...I just don't see that happening.  Bill Butler is a jerk, and by his recent comments he is trying to "stick it" to Cincinnati (who basically told him to kiss off).  He has a massive ego, and Cincinnati city leadership pissed all over it (as they should).  When I asked the guy heading the Nky Vision Plan about what Bill's intentions were about a future bike trail/riverwalk or parkspace and so on...he wasn't able to give me a strong answer in either direction.  That should be worrisome to both Nky and Cincinnati; that Bill Butler might end up screwing the pooch on this important piece of riverfront property.

^ Well, I wasn't meaning per se the strict definition of a planned construction date. But I recalled articles long ago mentioning The Banks with estimated construction dates, but actual "we are going to do it" dates you are spot on with. And you are right -- it is a complex issue. There has been poor leadership due to the many involved parties, and then you have the whole minority issue which has been beaten to a bloody pulp. It's much the same with other projects, including some in northern Kentucky and across the U.S., so I wasn't trying to singlehandedly pick out The Banks.

 

And does Ovation need another Licking River crossing? The existing span was rehabilitated in the early 1990s, and it is a state route, so any modifications to the structure would need to go through the state. Seeing as how there are capacity restrictions to the west, any bridge widening would not be feasible. A wider walk/bike attachment, or one that follows closer to the Ohio River, would be ideal, though.

 

After reading some articles concerning Bill Butler, you may be right about him "sticking it" to Cincinnati. The article had a huge slant to N. Ky., but let's not judge the projects as "sticking it" to Cincinnati. Hopefully we can get developers who will work together on projects, but it seems as if they are more interested in working with other northern Kentucky cities (per the first article). Do you think there is still this divide between the Cincinnati and northern Kentucky, influenced by political and geographical features, that draws in these types of developers and their "pushy" arrogance (i.e. N. Ky's projects will be better than Cinci's, and vice versa)?

Digging up old articles about RiverCenter (which I found out was the Ashland Inc./office/restaurant complex along the river), the predictions were that the restaurant component would fail and that it would fail to generate any additional traffic for the downtown. It was also predicted by some to put a glut in the Class A office market and to shelve other projects due to this glut, but none of the predictions have come true.

 

Restaurants in and around Rivercenter are doing very poorly.  A few remain, but many have folded including the entire complex that used to be the restaurant/nightlife hub of cvg on the river.  Butler has succeeded in creating the most lifeless "downtown" I've ever seen, and there's little room for improvement without a major redesign of the street level sections of every building.  This is the main reason I'm glad Corporex is no longer involved with the Banks and why I have bad expectations for Ovation.

I think the number 1 obstacle to Ovation is access.  There is no good way to get there.  The I-471 exit into Newport is already woefully inadequate, plus you have to wind your way all the way around NOTL on several very small neighborhood streets.

And does Ovation need another Licking River crossing? The existing span was rehabilitated in the early 1990s, and it is a state route, so any modifications to the structure would need to go through the state. Seeing as how there are capacity restrictions to the west, any bridge widening would not be feasible. A wider walk/bike attachment, or one that follows closer to the Ohio River, would be ideal, though.

 

After reading some articles concerning Bill Butler, you may be right about him "sticking it" to Cincinnati. The article had a huge slant to N. Ky., but let's not judge the projects as "sticking it" to Cincinnati. Hopefully we can get developers who will work together on projects, but it seems as if they are more interested in working with other northern Kentucky cities (per the first article). Do you think there is still this divide between the Cincinnati and northern Kentucky, influenced by political and geographical features, that draws in these types of developers and their "pushy" arrogance (i.e. N. Ky's projects will be better than Cinci's, and vice versa)?

 

It's not that Ovation needs another Licking River crossing, but rather that another crossing or redone crossing has been discussed...and how will Ovation play into that situation.

 

Secondly, I don't think that divide is as strong as it once was...but Bill Butler is a separate issue.  He couldn't do a project on the Cincinnati riverfront where he could just max out the site with little regard for any of it's surroundings.  So he takes his riverfront project to Newport; I hope that Newport will not allow him to dump all over their riverfront as I suspect he plans.  He's one of those developers that is all about profit and nothing else.  I am hesitant towards ANY projects tied to Bill Butler.  It is not a blanket Nky thing...just Bill Butler.

It's not that Ovation needs another Licking River crossing, but rather that another crossing or redone crossing has been discussed...and how will Ovation play into that situation.

 

Secondly, I don't think that divide is as strong as it once was...but Bill Butler is a separate issue.  He couldn't do a project on the Cincinnati riverfront where he could just max out the site with little regard for any of it's surroundings.  So he takes his riverfront project to Newport; I hope that Newport will not allow him to dump all over their riverfront as I suspect he plans.  He's one of those developers that is all about profit and nothing else.  I am hesitant towards ANY projects tied to Bill Butler.  It is not a blanket Nky thing...just Bill Butler.

 

Looks like I need to do some article digging. I'm now interested in this rebuilt/second crossing over the Licking. I wouldn't mind seeing the existing span demolished and a new, three-lane with bike lanes and _wider_ sidewalks constructed. Or if its rebuilt, then two-lanes with bike lanes -- there is little need for a two/one configuration.

 

I didn't realize that Butler had proposed another project in Cincinnati before Ovation. So you are saying that he just wanted to build a massive, overwhelming project that was out of character and not-in-harmony with the surrounding neighborhood, and was trying to stack as many units in for pure profit? In Newport at least, there isn't much surrounding character to go around -- it's filled with parking lots, government projects, and suburban lots. If it is across the Licking, that's another point, but I would almost say that the river itself is a good dividing factor, but the stark, rather uniform design might be enough to be a misfire for the city.

 

If you could provide some clarification on the "max out the site..." comment, that would be much appreciated :)

 

Looks like I'll be hitting UO and the newspaper archives today.

Restaurants in and around Rivercenter are doing very poorly.  A few remain, but many have folded including the entire complex that used to be the restaurant/nightlife hub of cvg on the river.  Butler has succeeded in creating the most lifeless "downtown" I've ever seen, and there's little room for improvement without a major redesign of the street level sections of every building.  This is the main reason I'm glad Corporex is no longer involved with the Banks and why I have bad expectations for Ovation.

 

Was Butler the primary developer of RiverCenter? I thought that the restaurants were doing quite nicely, but I was last there in the mid-evening hour and there was a crowd. I can't say the success for certain outside of the articles I've read -- and there is always bias in that.

 

As for lifeless corridors, the sterile nature of the RiverCenter was quite outstanding. There was little streetscape, and a more successful development would have much more street-level retail and restaurants, and more on-street parking. But for some, it's like driving through a suburban landscape: hard to find where you are going! The only real way I can see to correct that is to continue the infill, but add a wealth of residential units to support what's already there. Ovation may be a tad too far to walk, right?

Hamilton County (when controlled by Republicans) selected Corporex (aka Bill Butler) to develop the site.  However, the city was opposed to that idea and the Planning Commission quickly moved to put more checks/balances on the final project.  It was also the strong opposition of the City and it's Planning Commission that essentially turned off Bill Butler.

 

You can see how he is essentially maxing out the site for Ovation in the current plans.  The density is WAAAY to high, the buildings are out of context and open/public space is minimal and half-rate at best.  To me that quantifies as maxing out a site for profit.  That is exactly what Cincinnati city officials and Planning Commission feared, and thus why they drove him back across the river.

The biggest mistake Butler makes and all of Kentucky cities could make is to overload the immediate waterfront, because no matter how great NKY gets, they will not be building 15 to 20 story buildings five or six blocks north of the river. This is especially true since for urbanists, NKY great potential is bound up almost in entirely in the fact that the 19th century neighborhoods remain almost unaltered. It would have made more sense to stager the development deeper in the cities to allow for more valuable riverview land. This is especially the problem in West Covington and Bellevue and Dayton. Newport hasn't done it yet, but Ovation certainly seems to be heading in that direction.

So you are saying that he just wanted to build a massive, overwhelming project that was out of character and not-in-harmony with the surrounding neighborhood, and was trying to stack as many units in for pure profit?

 

Just wait till the latest phase of the baldwin complex is built out...you'll see exactly what hes talking about.

Developers hear pitch from N. Ky. river cities

By Greg Paeth, Cincinnati Post | August 25, 2007

 

On a day so hot that it might have made Death Valley seem like a more preferable place to build, Northern Kentucky officials, business leaders and the governor of Kentucky tried to convince developers to invest in five river cities with an innovative "Developers' Day" presentation Friday.

 

Whether the floating shopping mall for companies that build retail, commercial and residential projects pays off won't be known for some time.  There were no announcements Friday that anyone who attended the event had decided to make an investment in Covington, Newport, Bellevue, Dayton or Ludlow, cities that made their pitches aboard the Belle of Cincinnati.

 

But people who attended gave Southbank Partners, which organized the event, high marks for showing some ingenuity by assembling hundreds of developers, builders, sub-contractors, bankers, lawyers, real estate brokers, architects, engineers and city officials for an afternoon that might lead to "Let's Make A Deal."

 

Read full article here:

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070825/NEWS01/708250336

"I hope they're spying on this over there," said David A. Staun of Unit Building Services in Fairfax, referring to the city of Cincinnati and its long search for a riverfront developer for The Banks on the Cincinnati riverfront. "I've never seen this kind of thing done over there."

 

The simple fact that they are on a cruise to check out NORTHERN KENTUCKY and they are all talking about Cincinnati is enough to say that this kind of effort isn't as needed for Cincinnati.  It is the big dog, and doesn't have to strain to attract attention from these people (sure it wouldn't hurt), but it goes hand in hand...they are supposed to be checking out Nky, but they're talking about the Cincinnati riverfront and its various projects.

Southbank plans for new decade

By Scott Wartman, Cincinnati Enquirer | January 4, 2010

 

The planning has started for development in Northern Kentucky along the Ohio River in the next decade.  Southbank Partners announced it hired Covington resident Marshall Slagle, of Marshall Slagle Planning LLC, to work on the Southbank Imagination 2020 Plan for the river cities of Ludlow, Covington, Newport, Bellevue, Dayton and Fort Thomas.

 

The plan will be similar to the Southbank Strategic Development Plan of 1997 that helped guide development in the river cities, said Jack Moreland, president of Southbank Partners, a non-profit organization that works on economic development for the river cities in Northern Kentucky. That plan included the Southbank Shuttle, Purple People Bridge and Newport on the Levee, Moreland said.

 

Read full article here:

http://nky.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20100104/NEWS0103/1050353