16 hours ago, jjakucyk said:

 

Huh, well would you look at that.  Chicago has an extensive chilled water utility in the Loop.  I remember reading a big spread in the Chicago Tribune about it sometime in the late 1990s.  Apparently the company that operates it now has utility service in several other large cities too.  A shame these systems fly so much under the radar, and their websites are useless corporate marketing drivel.  

 

Steam systems, very prevalent in NYC and college campuses, are very difficult and expensive to operate and keep working.  I think a lot of the district heating plants in Europe either were always hot water, or the older steams systems were converted to hot water.  Steam was useful before electric motors and pumps because it would just work its way through the pipes under its own pressure.  In fact, I think that many downtown buildings around the turn of the 20th century would use steam (district or from their own boilers) to generate their own electricity (especially for elevators), before electric companies came around.  Trouble is that steam requires complicated balancing, drains, traps, and heftier pipes and insulation than hot water. The amount of heat it provides isn't really needed either, certainly not these days.  Large downtown buildings rarely need as much heating as cooling, even in winter, so it's not so surprising to see district chilled water take the place of district heating.

 

 

My guess is that CoolCo was formed to provide chilled water for air conditioning for downtown buildings that were built with steam heat only.  CoolCo is not a geo-thermal plant.  It provides chilled water only using large chillers on the 6th floor roof.  Google Maps shows just 2 chillers, but I believe there is now a third.

 

Edited December 19, 20204 yr by thesenator
grammar

Maybe that's why the 4th and Walnut center can't get a hotel tenant, the guests could all get Legionnaires' disease.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/other/industrial/cooling_towers.html#:~:text=Cooling towers and Legionnaires' disease,-Cooling towers contain&text=Water within cooling towers is,water droplets containing Legionella bacteria.

 

 

In the past couple of days fencing has gone up around the front and rear of the Millennium Hotel, and this morning I noticed O’Rourke demolition signage being put up on the fencing. Has anyone heard anything about a new timetable for demolition/replacement? I know it was supposed to start last year, but I’m assuming those plans were yet another victim of COVID.

^ it’s about time. 
 

and last I heard (back around October 2020) they where firming up how much hotel they can get (# of rooms) in the current financial market. They also where In the middle of deciding whether to combine it with a convention center expansion. They should know the answers to those by now if I had to guess.

Also timeline wise I’m thinking a summer or fall 2022 groundbreaking possibly, Cranley may want to get this deal done under his watch so he can take credit on the way out the door.

Edited February 22, 20214 yr by 646empire

I'm so disappointed this building couldn't be spared and used to close the housing (affordable and market price) shortage we have.  It doesn't interface with the street well, but I actually really like the tower itself.

Is it safe to assume this project will be phased down profoundly from what we had talked about. And then in 10 years (when Covid is a distant memory try) it will be inadequate again.

30 minutes ago, Rabbit Hash said:

Is it safe to assume this project will be phased down profoundly from what we had talked about. And then in 10 years (when Covid is a distant memory try) it will be inadequate again.

Just remember though, in the end it isnt the results that matter, its all the friends we made through grift and influence peddling along the way.

31 minutes ago, Rabbit Hash said:

Is it safe to assume this project will be phased down profoundly from what we had talked about. And then in 10 years (when Covid is a distant memory try) it will be inadequate again.

I would be willing to go on a limb and say that this will be a vacant parking lot in 2025 awaiting stalled redevelopment efforts and the infighting on council on how to pay for it, what to build, who to use, and fighting over other petty matters like certain green design aspects and other carve outs that are irrelevant to the project. Why?? Because it is the council way. 

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I would be willing to go on a limb and say that this will be a vacant parking lot in 2025 awaiting stalled redevelopment efforts and the infighting on council on how to pay for it, what to build, who to use, and fighting over other petty matters like certain green design aspects and other carve outs that are irrelevant to the project. Why?? Because it is the council way. 

Well let’s hope not, because until this Hotel is built Cincinnati is pretty much irrelevant to large scale event planners.

Edited February 23, 20214 yr by 646empire

50 minutes ago, 646empire said:

Well let’s hope not, because until this Hotel is built Cincinnati is pretty much irrelevant to large scale event planners.

I'd like to see how the convention market is in 2022/2023 and have a cost/benefit analysis performed then.  It may be that the spending on convention center improvements and whatever public money is going towards the hotel will not be recouped.  In that case, the Millennium should stay and be converted to a large chunk of residential (that should be affordable even at market prices) and help support the efforts to improve the W 4th area of downtown, instead of having it live or die based on when conventions and events are happening in the city.

^ I think the wrecking ball papers have been signed so it does not appear that is an option anymore. They just said the Demo will start in 2 weeks. 

17 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

I'd like to see how the convention market is in 2022/2023 and have a cost/benefit analysis performed then.  It may be that the spending on convention center improvements and whatever public money is going towards the hotel will not be recouped.

A metro the size of Cincinnati not having a large adjacent convention hotel is totally unacceptable and extremely detrimental to growth period. The money the city losses by not having the ability to host large events is tremendous. Now when it comes to an expansion of the Convention Center itself I think that’s debatable but the hotel is a must.

Edited February 23, 20214 yr by 646empire

5 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

^ I think the wrecking ball papers have been signed so it does not appear that is an option anymore. They just said the Demo will start in 2 weeks. 

Exactly. This building is definitely going bye bye. I also don’t believe this structure or location would make sense as affordable housing.

Millennium Hotel demolition timetable announced

 

The Port of Greater Cincinnati Development Authority has announced a timetable for the demolition of the Millennium Hotel.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/03/22/millennium-hotel-demolition-timetable-announced.html

 

I would really like to see the timeline and design for the replacement. 

17 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I would really like to see the timeline and design for the replacement. 

I would hope it will be a quick transition. The only real way I see it maybe going in the back burner is if the old convention place gets torn down and starts development before we know what the plan is for the millenium site. 

15 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

I would hope it will be a quick transition. The only real way I see it maybe going in the back burner is if the old convention place gets torn down and starts development before we know what the plan is for the millenium site. 

I was hoping they would have used the parking lot next to convention place for the hotel and then they would not have had to worry about the contingency of tearing down the millenium first and could have taken their time to figure out the millenium site.

6th and Elm Streets are both closed to traffic, both skywalks are gone as well. 

 

 

 

I will miss the height of this building in the skyline, but hope it is replaced with something more interesting. At any rate, it's awesome to see the awful street presence this monster created disappear. Especially along 6th street. I almost feel like we have an opportunity to repair this area of downtown. It's been ugly ever since the urban renewal days.

49 minutes ago, TheCOV said:

I will miss the height of this building in the skyline, but hope it is replaced with something more interesting. At any rate, it's awesome to see the awful street presence this monster created. Especially along 6th street. I almost feel like we have an opportunity to repair this area of downtown. It's been ugly ever since the urban renewal days.

Yes, I hope they build something tall enough to balance out the skyline. 

6th street already feels better without the huge skywalk crossing it and I almost don't care what the replacement hotel looks like, I just don't want the convention center to permanently close off Elm street or even bridge over it creating an even worse streetscape than Millennium had. 

3 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I just don't want the convention center to permanently close off Elm street

Understandable, although over Elm is the simplest and cheapest convention center expansion option. The other options: a big expansion to the north encompassing 6th street OR the one we’ve heard about forever would be to the west over 1-75 which would be hugely expensive and I’m not even sure if it’s feasible until The Brent Spense Bridge plan is finalized. A southern expansion isn’t going to happen they are definitely not cutting off 5th street

I don't know, even with the BSB rework in flux, I still think the west expansion has more potential and much more space. The ramps could stay where they are for now since they are already recessed below street level and the convention center could just build over it. This could give 350+ feet of space easily to expand west. The north bound ramp could move back to 3rd street instead of 4th to free up even more space in the ramp's radius. At most it could expand 250 feet to the east because 84.51 isn't going anywhere, and in the 250 feet you would still potentially be sharing that space with a hotel lobby, entrance, etc. 

9 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I don't know, even with the BSB rework in flux, I still think the west expansion has more potential and much more space. The ramps could stay where they are for now since they are already recessed below street level and the convention center could just build over it. This could give 350+ feet of space easily to expand west. The north bound ramp could move back to 3rd street instead of 4th to free up even more space in the ramp's radius. At most it could expand 250 feet to the east because 84.51 isn't going anywhere, and in the 250 feet you would still potentially be sharing that space with a hotel lobby, entrance, etc. 

 

I personally would love a westward expansion, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they went east and tried to incorporate a smaller* expansion into the hotel project and leave the westward option for the 2030s. Money is going to play the ultimate role as always

This is only a debate if one accepts “the convention center must expand with a contiguous floor plate” as a central axiom. It’s an axiom that completely ignores what happens outside the convention center walls, if Elm is blocked off that means creating a potential dead zone by breaking up the street grid and creating a barrier that extends from the western edge of downtown almost to Fountain Square. 
 

i think blocking off Elm would be a mistake that future generations would seek to correct

42 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

This is only a debate if one accepts “the convention center must expand with a contiguous floor plate” as a central axiom. It’s an axiom that completely ignores what happens outside the convention center walls, if Elm is blocked off that means creating a potential dead zone by breaking up the street grid and creating a barrier that extends from the western edge of downtown almost to Fountain Square. 
 

i think blocking off Elm would be a mistake that future generations would seek to correct

The problem is that entire area is already a dead zone. The giant walls of the convention center itself, the  huge 5th/plum street lot, the soon to be lot at 5th and Elm (convention place building), and now the huge millennium hotel soon to be lot. The city needs to really reimagine the whole area. I personally wouldn’t freak out if elm is closed but It would depend on the plans for all that empty space.

The building at the NE corner of Elm and 6th is coming down too, I hope? 

2 hours ago, jebleprls22 said:

The building at the NE corner of Elm and 6th is coming down too, I hope? 

 

 

20 hours ago, 646empire said:

The problem is that entire area is already a dead zone. The giant walls of the convention center itself, the  huge 5th/plum street lot, the soon to be lot at 5th and Elm (convention place building), and now the huge millennium hotel soon to be lot. The city needs to really reimagine the whole area. I personally wouldn’t freak out if elm is closed but It would depend on the plans for all that empty space.

Why not just expand up? Yes, it poses some issues 1) no contiguous floor plans, 2) it makes staging certain events more difficult, but how many conventions have "everyone" in the same hall at one time. Running 2 large halls in the same place could add conventions and opportunities.

Has anyone thought of this? I thought I saw some cities had multi level convention halls.

3 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Why not just expand up? Yes, it poses some issues 1) no contiguous floor plans, 2) it makes staging certain events more difficult, but how many conventions have "everyone" in the same hall at one time. Running 2 large halls in the same place could add conventions and opportunities.

Has anyone thought of this? I thought I saw some cities had multi level convention halls.

I believe the preference by far among large scale event planners is for contiguous space. The big ballrooms and individual meeting rooms are commonly on the 2nd floor in conventions centers thats even the case in Cincinnati so it’s already kinda Multi leveled (although only a portion of cincys building is 2 floors, the west side), a 3 floor center is probably on the rare side. Also in Cincinnati’s case building on top of the existing center would be very expensive and probably not even worth the trouble.  

On 4/22/2021 at 10:52 AM, 646empire said:

I believe the preference by far among large scale event planners is for contiguous space. The big ballrooms and individual meeting rooms are commonly on the 2nd floor in conventions centers thats even the case in Cincinnati so it’s already kinda Multi leveled (although only a portion of cincys building is 2 floors, the west side), a 3 floor center is probably on the rare side. Also in Cincinnati’s case building on top of the existing center would be very expensive and probably not even worth the trouble.  

Seattle's gigantic convention expansion is all multi-level (taking a new city block), but their existing facility was already multi-level. The midwest really has an aversion to convention centers that aren't just blocks upon blocks of contiguous space. I want to know if it was ever floated that they expand westwards over the highway ramps -- just float over the ground in that direction.

6 minutes ago, jebleprls22 said:

Seattle's gigantic convention expansion is all multi-level (taking a new city block), but their existing facility was already multi-level. The midwest really has an aversion to convention centers that aren't just blocks upon blocks of contiguous space. I want to know if it was ever floated that they expand westwards over the highway ramps -- just float over the ground in that direction.

But to @646empire point, I do not think the current center would be designed to support a multi tiered structure. you essentially need to tear it down and start from scratch if you were going to do something like that. 

looks a bit fragile with the bottom removed 😬

^Oh I hate playing Jenga with people that immediately make a mess of the bottom like that

1 hour ago, dotunderscore said:

looks a bit fragile with the bottom removed 😬

 

Goodbye Stouffers Hotel and Restaurant! You were a shining diamond back in the day. Your time has come to a close. Thanks Millennium Copthorne Group, not. 

Cincinnati hoteliers want 800-room headquarters hotel to replace Millennium

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/05/03/cincinnati-hoteliers-want-800-room-hq.html

 

The new Loews Hotel at the Kansas City Convention Center is 800 rooms and 24 stories.  How many rooms/stories was the Millenium?

Edited May 5, 20214 yr by nicker66

11 minutes ago, nicker66 said:

Cincinnati hoteliers want 800-room headquarters hotel to replace Millennium

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/05/03/cincinnati-hoteliers-want-800-room-hq.html

 

The new Loews Hotel at the Kansas City Convention Center is 800 rooms and 24 stories.  How many rooms/stories was the Millenium?

The hotel was 872 rooms but that was across two towers. The Kansas City hotel hopefully is not what ours will turn out to be. It’s not tall enough. I’d assume that they would want something that will stand taller than the Hyatt  across the street ( I believe it stand around 260ft) so I’d guess a hotel height of around the same as the millennium at 350. I don’t think they’ll go higher than 400 but I hope they do. 

Edited May 5, 20214 yr by Ucgrad2015

25 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

The hotel was 872 rooms but that was across two towers. The Kansas City hotel hopefully is not what ours will turn out to be. It’s not tall enough. I’d assume that they would want something that will stand taller than the Hyatt  across the street ( I believe it stand around 260ft) so I’d guess a hotel height of around the same as the millennium at 350. I don’t think they’ll go higher than 400 but I hope they do. 

 

We care a lot about height, but I'm not so sure that the people building the hotel will. They'll probably care more about cost.

2 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

We care a lot about height, but I'm not so sure that the people building the hotel will. They'll probably care more about cost.

That and also the fact that the millennium site is actually pretty big and its unlikely to require much height for 800 rooms.

28 minutes ago, 646empire said:

That and also the fact that the millennium site is actually pretty big and its unlikely to require much height for 800 rooms.

If they add a convention center expansion it would add a little more height to it. I mean I’m not saying build a 800ft hotel, but if they really want it to be a signature hotel you’d at least want it to be recognized from the cut in the hill. 

47 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

If they add a convention center expansion it would add a little more height to it. I mean I’m not saying build a 800ft hotel, but if they really want it to be a signature hotel you’d at least want it to be recognized from the cut in the hill. 

Kinda. But height alone doesn’t make any building “signature” as I’m sure you know. I’m not too worried about height, I just want a luxury flag and at least 750 rooms. 

2 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

If they add a convention center expansion it would add a little more height to it. I mean I’m not saying build a 800ft hotel, but if they really want it to be a signature hotel you’d at least want it to be recognized from the cut in the hill. 

 

1 hour ago, 646empire said:

Kinda. But height alone doesn’t make any building “signature” as I’m sure you know. I’m not too worried about height, I just want a luxury flag and at least 750 rooms. 

To put it in perspective, the current hotel was give or take 800 rooms with two towers and lower floorplates than would be used today. The Hyatt is approx 20 stories and about 350 rooms I believe and the Westin is fairly comparable in size. 
So to build 800 rooms they would need to have some level of height you would think. Maybe not taller than now but that is still a noticeable building in the Skyline 

 

personally I would like them to build something like the jw in Indy

Edited May 5, 20214 yr by Brutus_buckeye

The 32-story, 600 room Hilton by the the Cleveland Convention Center seems like a pretty good model for Cincinnati. The site could easily accommodate 800 rooms. Let’s hope we get some height. 

44 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

The 32-story, 600 room Hilton by the the Cleveland Convention Center seems like a pretty good model for Cincinnati. The site could easily accommodate 800 rooms. Let’s hope we get some height. 

If I had to guess it will be in the 30-38 story range similar to one that is proposed in Indianapolis which is 38 stories and 800 rooms (pictured below). The Cleveland hotel looks fine, thankfully Cincinnati will most likely get a better flag than a standard Hilton tho. But I prefer the new Louisville convention hotel as a model for Cincinnati it’s the same size as Cleveland’s but it’s a Omni and is much nicer and has a residential component (pictured below in 2nd photo)

 

Edited May 6, 20214 yr by 646empire

16 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

The hotel was 872 rooms but that was across two towers. The Kansas City hotel hopefully is not what ours will turn out to be. It’s not tall enough. I’d assume that they would want something that will stand taller than the Hyatt  across the street ( I believe it stand around 260ft) so I’d guess a hotel height of around the same as the millennium at 350. I don’t think they’ll go higher than 400 but I hope they do. 

 

KC hotel also has an abysmal street presence, which I hope this could improve upon. I know that's not a priority with hotels but the KC one is genuinely unfriendly to walk by. 

Now that I think about it, there will have to be a large parking component to this project.  That will probably boost the total height to the 30+ story range.  

8 minutes ago, nicker66 said:

Now that I think about it, there will have to be a large parking component to this project.  That will probably boost the total height to the 30+ story range.  

 

It would be great if they could incorporate enough garage parking to eliminate the need for both of those garages north of the Convention Center and re-use that space for residential. 

1 hour ago, seaswan said:

 

KC hotel also has an abysmal street presence, which I hope this could improve upon. I know that's not a priority with hotels but the KC one is genuinely unfriendly to walk by. 

 

They should care though. That area is kind of the front door to the city and it is abysmal for pedestrians. They should take note of Philly's Rittenhouse Square neighborhood, which is full of high end hotels and is one of the most pleasant areas to walk around in any city in the US. This is partly because the hotels do a good job integrating into the streetscape.

23 hours ago, savadams13 said:

 

Goodbye Stouffers Hotel and Restaurant! You were a shining diamond back in the day. Your time has come to a close. Thanks Millennium Copthorne Group, not.