On 9/18/2021 at 10:33 AM, thebillshark said:

i am concerned this option will be presented to the public and council as the only way “forward”, possibly with some kind of constrained time frame for approval.  No doubt in my mind if they block Elm with convention center expansion, in one generation or less we will be talking about how to go back and fix that mistake. 

 

Oh, absolutely. That's how we do things in this city. There is going to be some sort of fake "community engagement" process where all the urbanists tell the city that shutting down Elm Street is a huge mistake, but ultimately the business community is going to push it through and we're going to get steamrolled. It's going to be presented as a black and white decision (are you for or against the Convention Center expansion?) and the notion that there could be another option (yes, let's expand the Convention Center, but do it in a way that does harm Downtown Cincinnati's street grid and connectivity) will never be acknowledged.

On 9/18/2021 at 10:33 AM, thebillshark said:

i am concerned this option will be presented to the public and council as the only way “forward”, possibly with some kind of constrained time frame for approval.  No doubt in my mind if they block Elm with convention center expansion, in one generation or less we will be talking about how to go back and fix that mistake. 

I could live with an expanded center over Elm if 

1) It is also the site of the new hotel on top of it and you have the hotel to give it some street presence on the Eastern part of those blocks. 

2) It does not close down Elm and you have a tunnel underneath and maybe 1-2 Skywalks over it for connectivity (there is not going to be other action on those blocks so I am fine with a Skywalk there in that case.

 

35 minutes ago, taestell said:

Oh, absolutely. That's how we do things in this city. There is going to be some sort of fake "community engagement" process where all the urbanists tell the city that shutting down Elm Street is a huge mistake, but ultimately the business community is going to push it through and we're going to get steamrolled. It's going to be presented as a black and white decision (are you for or against the Convention Center expansion?) and the notion that there could be another option (yes, let's expand the Convention Center, but do it in a way that does harm Downtown Cincinnati's street grid and connectivity) will never be acknowledged.

 

Closing off 2 of the 9 north/south streets that exist between the highways seems pretty nuts. That's from a walking or driving standpoint. The break in Plum is bad enough by itself. I work down in the southwest corner of downtown and find myself walking an extra block to get around the convention center more often than one would think.

 

However, if the convention center expanded to the north and 6th street was put in a tunnel below it - that might work. The tunnel could continue under Central and connect directly to the onramps.

2 hours ago, taestell said:

 

^ My understanding is that expanding west was the preferred option, but with the BSB project effectively stalled, the Convention Center was forced to start looking at other options.

 

 

They should wait and do this option.

29 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

 

They should wait and do this option.

That would be waiting another 5 years, if not longer.  I'll believe they actually start building the new bridge when I see it. 

2 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

That would be waiting another 5 years, if not longer.  I'll believe they actually start building the new bridge when I see it. 

Agreed.

 

They can add on to the current footprint. Just build up or down!

 

Why not expand under 6th street to the north? The City owns a garage at 6th and Central and the Port owns a garage at 6th and Elm. From Central Ave to Elm is 880’ and from the convention center north to George Street (which runs along the north side of Port owned garage) is 200’ wide.

 

Here’s a quick look at this area vs. the Millenium site.

 

12 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

Why not expand under 6th street to the north? The City owns a garage at 6th and Central and the Port owns a garage at 6th and Elm. From Central Ave to Elm is 880’ and from the convention center north to George Street (which runs along the north side of Port owned garage) is 200’ wide.

I like this idea... but my understanding is that the main issue/goal of expansion is to get all of square footage on the same level. So, expanding north under 6th Street doesn't really solve that. If they are willing to expand by using multiple levels (which is by far my preference), then I think going up would be the simplest/cheapest/best option. 

1 hour ago, jwulsin said:

I like this idea... but my understanding is that the main issue/goal of expansion is to get all of square footage on the same level. So, expanding north under 6th Street doesn't really solve that. If they are willing to expand by using multiple levels (which is by far my preference), then I think going up would be the simplest/cheapest/best option. 

Well this sounds ugly, but just eliminate 6th street here, and expand northward. The main level increases significantly, all the loading docks can be off Plum Street at 7th. Anyway we all look at and talk about it, our convention center either needs to expand or the city needs to find another money generator. Columbus, Louisville, and Indy have all increased there convention centers over the years, do we need to get that big? No probably not but i have heard from a number of individuals that the convention center is getting passed over even with the interiors being more up to date, because the size just doesnt work for a number of shows and conventions. 

This will never happen, but I think it would be best if they moved it to the triangle shaped Parking lot on Eggleston next to the Casino.  Buy out the Pet Athletic Club and Solo Products, then they can take over that triangle as well, and take over Reedy street North of Eggleston.   Buy out the Greyhound station,  (I thought I saw they were trying to sell) so they can have that land as well.  They can take over that piece of E court street to connect the Greyhound lot.   Rip out the Gilbert Street over passes, and have Gilbert just dump out onto Eggleston. 

 

Then the Convention Center is attached to the Casino.  The Casino has talked about building a Hotel, so they can build a massive one there for both Casino and Convention Center.  I don't really know anything about the Convention Center business, but my guess is that having it attached to the Casino would likely make it much more appealing for various Conventions.

 

Losing that piece of Reedy Street and Court Street wouldn't hurt the walkability of downtown as that area is pushed up next to the Highway.

 

Then we could reclaim the current site, rebuild Plum street, and let 3cdc do their thing constructing some good urban buildings on the current site.

3 hours ago, JoeHarmon said:

but I think it would be best if they moved it to the triangle shaped Parking lot on Eggleston next to the Casino.  Buy out the Pet Athletic Club and Solo Products, then they can take over that triangle as well, and take over Reedy street North of Eggleston.   Buy out the Greyhound station,  (I thought I saw they were trying to sell) so they can have that land as well.  They can take over that piece of E court street to connect the Greyhound lot.   Rip out the Gilbert Street over passes, and have Gilbert just dump out onto Eggleston. 

Interesting idea. The footprint of the current convention center is ~8 acres. That layout you proposed is also ~8 acres, but in a more awkward shape... so your proposed moved wouldn't give them a larger contiguous footprint. But an interesting idea nonetheless!

 

 

 

 

 

In a world where I am King, we would build a new Greater Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky Convention Center on the former IRS site in Covington. The Duke Energy Center and the ugly garages to the north would be demolished and replaced by new mixed use development, and Plum Street would be reconnected.

^That would be preferable from an urban design standpoint, but would likely suck restaurants and hotels across the river.

North Tower is almost equal to the South Tower. Demolition finally moving quicker. It would be nice if the Port, City and County would get there sh*t together on the future of the convention hotel. 

3 hours ago, savadams13 said:

North Tower is almost equal to the South Tower. Demolition finally moving quicker. It would be nice if the Port, City and County would get there sh*t together on the future of the convention hotel. 

Well thankfully we’ll have a new mayor in the next few months. 

Given that the funding and plans for a new hotel are not in place, I would not doubt that this issue would jeopardize the World Cup bid taking place next week.

What about the following:

 

1.  Convention Center expands to the north by taking over Sixth Street ROW between Plum and Elm and the 609 Elm parking garage footprint.  This parking garage looks like its in rough shape anyways.  The convention center would get a roughly 67,000 square foot expansion (or more, if multiple stores tall) that would meet the existing building in a way to expand Exhibit Hall A without a lot of reconfiguration.  

2.  If this is not enough square footage for expansion this could be a Phase 1 project until westward expansion over the highway is possible  

3.  George St. is beefed up to handle redirected 6th street traffic

4.  Much opportunity for pedestrian activated street fronting uses is created in new buildings surrounding the convention center along Elm Street, Fifth and Sixth Streets, Plum Street south of Fifth

 

 

 

10 hours ago, thebillshark said:

What about the following:

 

1.  Convention Center expands to the north by taking over Sixth Street ROW between Plum and Elm and the 609 Elm parking garage footprint.  This parking garage looks like its in rough shape anyways.  The convention center would get a roughly 67,000 square foot expansion (or more, if multiple stores tall) that would meet the existing building in a way to expand Exhibit Hall A without a lot of reconfiguration.  

2.  If this is not enough square footage for expansion this could be a Phase 1 project until westward expansion over the highway is possible  

3.  George St. is beefed up to handle redirected 6th street traffic

4.  Much opportunity for pedestrian activated street fronting uses is created in new buildings surrounding the convention center along Elm Street, Fifth and Sixth Streets, Plum Street south of Fifth

 

 

 

I do not know if that really does anything signficant as far as an expansion goes. It seems it would have to be larger. However, to piggyback off your idea, maybe take the expansion all the way across, close off 6th street and expand where the garage is on the other side of Plum. Expand George street all the way through to create the cutthrough where Plum and 6th served. It cuts off the 6th street artery downtown to the highway but it does not cut it off completely. It also pretty much just removes dead space North of the convetntion center anyway that is not used for much besides parking. 

i want to play too!

 

i really hate tunnels under these things, and that intersection at elm is not the best urban situation,  but i dont know a good way to access the western side and the pseudo interstate nonsense that we have over there...

parking would need to be under a lot of this as well since i took down a lot of the ugly garages on this side of town.

Hmmmm can someone see what this hearing is about?

 

On 10/18/2021 at 10:52 PM, stashua123 said:

Hmmmm can someone see what this hearing is about?

 

Here's a video of the short hearing which was held yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L84JlvUKvVQ

 

The hearing was about what happens to the site immediately after the Millenium demolition is completed. The Port is planning to plant grass and shrubs and install a perimeter fence. The landscaping and maintenance plan is required because The Port anticipates it being vacant beyond downtown's 6-month maximum for leaving a site vacant. 

 

In response to "are there any plans yet to redevelop the site?"

Chris Meyer from The Port responded: "The short answer to your question is no. The bigger picture is to examine the redevelopment or some kind of expansion of the convention center and then whatever should happen on this site shall be coordinated with those future plans. Maybe that means a hotel. If the hotel goes elsewhere, maybe that means some other form of complex that would complement the explansion plans." 

 

So... no real news here. Just that it's continuing to be a piece in the broader "convention expansion" puzzle. 

 

 

This sounds like it is going to be a grass field for years. Which is pretty wild considering this 'planning' has been going on for years and it appears it is years away still. 

9 minutes ago, wjh2 said:

This sounds like it is going to be a grass field for years. Which is pretty wild considering this 'planning' has been going on for years and it appears it is years away still. 

I don’t know…there a ton of wealthy city leaders and people of affluence that rely on a healthy convention center.

 

lack of a dedicated connected convention hotel will most definitely hurt business opportunities for many wealthy leaders of Cincinnati…so I don’t realistically see how this could remain a grassy lot for years…especially when the convention center is one of the key revenue generators for the city…..

6 minutes ago, Troeros2 said:

I don’t know…there a ton of wealthy city leaders and people of affluence that rely on a healthy convention center.

 

lack of a dedicated connected convention hotel will most definitely hurt business opportunities for many wealthy leaders of Cincinnati…so I don’t realistically see how this could remain a grassy lot for years…especially when the convention center is one of the key revenue generators for the city…..

What I’ve heard recently from folks I know is this:

 

- The Millennium Hotel site may in fact sit for a long time because the city can’t afford a hotel + Convention Center expansion combo at the moment. The city doesn’t want to “waste” the site on just a hotel, they view it as the only viable direction to expand the center.

 

- BUT on the flip side they recognize they can’t let a center expansion hold up a hotel,  So the focus is quietly shifting to a possible 3cdc led hotel project of some sort across the street.

8 minutes ago, 646empire said:

What I’ve heard recently from folks I know is this:

 

- The Millennium Hotel site may in fact sit for a long time because the city can’t afford a hotel + Convention Center expansion combo at the moment. The city doesn’t want to “waste” the site on just a hotel, they view it as the only viable direction to expand the center.

 

- BUT on the flip side they recognize they can’t let a center expansion hold up a hotel,  So the focus is quietly shifting to a possible 3cdc led hotel project of some sort across the street.

Possibly unrelated by how did the city get so broke? I thought the downtown tax base was increasing? 
 

a lot of comparable mid sized cities like Indy, Louisville, st.Louis, can get projects done like this with ease. 
 

Why are we in such a rough shape in comparison?
 

Edited October 28, 20213 yr by Troeros2

2 minutes ago, Troeros2 said:

Possibly unrelated by how did the city get so broke? I thought the downtown tax base was increasing? 
 

a lot of comparable mid sized cities like Indy, Louisville, st.Louis, can get projects done like this with ease. 
 

Why are we in such a rough shape in comparison?
 

Cincinnati-Hamilton county still has a lot on its *future plate* including a new bengals lease/paul brown stadium renovation that’s not on the public radar but will be soon and one of the most dated and run down arenas of any major city.
 

Also Cincy can find a way to do the hotel but it’s the expansion plus a hotel on top that seems a bridge too far, this is just a guess but 3CDC could get 600-700 rooms for around 300 million (which I think will happen). The “combo” expansion idea your looking at 450+ Million? The city-county can’t finance that without going to voters which I don’t think they want to do.

44 minutes ago, 646empire said:

What I’ve heard recently from folks I know is this:

 

- The Millennium Hotel site may in fact sit for a long time because the city can’t afford a hotel + Convention Center expansion combo at the moment. The city doesn’t want to “waste” the site on just a hotel, they view it as the only viable direction to expand the center.

 

- BUT on the flip side they recognize they can’t let a center expansion hold up a hotel,  So the focus is quietly shifting to a possible 3cdc led hotel project of some sort across the street.

And things could drastically change with a new mayor and city council. I’d assume this will be a big issue in their plate when they come into office. 

27 minutes ago, 646empire said:

Cincinnati-Hamilton county still has a lot on its *future plate* including a new bengals lease/paul brown stadium renovation that’s not on the public radar but will be soon and one of the most dated and run down arenas of any major city.

 

Is there going to be any public input on the lease renewal and stadium renovation? I didn't know it was finalized.

Just now, RealAdamP said:

 

Is there going to be any public input on the lease renewal and stadium renovation? I didn't know it was finalized.

It’s far from finalized. Like everything that is sports venue related in this city expect some drama ahead. If the Bengals are competitive with a good team over the next couple years that may actually help the process believe it or not.

2 minutes ago, 646empire said:

It’s far from finalized. Like everything that is sports venue related in this city expect some drama ahead. If the Bengals are competitive with a good team over the next couple years that may actually help the process believe it or not.

I wonder how much (or how many times over) the convention center expansion/hotel could be paid for instead of spending it on the stadium.

26 minutes ago, RealAdamP said:

I wonder how much (or how many times over) the convention center expansion/hotel could be paid for instead of spending it on the stadium.

In my opinion Paul Brown Stadium is nice to look at outside and in the seating bowl, but it’s the ugly plain grey concourses that needs redo. Maybe 200-300 million will be negotiated? Including new tech, seat replacement, restrooms, concessions, Suite upgrades ?. Not sure just a guess. A Convention Center project gets the region more bang for the buck over PBS that’s for sure. But we definitely don’t want to lose an NFL team. This will all work out tho.

Edited October 28, 20213 yr by 646empire

The bengals can extend their completely free lease for another 15 years if they want.  They have three 5 year extension options.  So it's just a matter of can they come to an agreement on a new lease with the county in the next couple of years.  Or if talks stall they'll try again after another 10+ years of the current lease.  

2 hours ago, 646empire said:

So the focus is quietly shifting to a possible 3cdc led hotel project of some sort across the street.

 

So basically, we should have just let 3CDC move forward with their original plan to build a new hotel south of the convention center? And that the Port swooping in and trying to steal the show was a total failure?

On 7/26/2021 at 12:06 AM, taestell said:

3CDC was trying to build a new hotel on the lot south of the convention center...

 

On 5/15/2018 at 1:18 PM, taestell said:

Sounds like 3CDC wants to build a new hotel on the parking lot south of the convention center. Probably bad news for the Millennium Hotel.

 

3CDC, GCRA to acquire parking lot near Duke Energy Convention Center

 

“What it really is, the best use of the site, it’s a great convention center hotel site,” Leeper said. “A real convention center hotel is going to be critical to our convention center business.”

 

Leeper said 3CDC has already started discussions with potential hotel developers for the property.

 

...before the Port starting buying up all the other lots surrounding the convention center and eventually the Millennium Hotel itself.

 

For that reason it wouldn't be out of the question for 3CDC to be involved in the project somehow, but isn't it a little weird for 3CDC and the Port to be working together? Aren't they basically competitors?

 

So now the full story is starting to come out. It's not that the Port and 3CDC are "working together" ... it's that the Port can't get it together, so they're asking 3CDC to come back and build the hotel they originally wanted to build.

15 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

So basically, we should have just let 3CDC move forward with their original plan to build a new hotel south of the convention center? And that the Port swooping in and trying to steal the show was a total failure?

That’s exactly what it’s sounding like! But now they have 10s of millions less to work with since they spent it on the acquisition and demo of the millennium. Sad. The only positives is we now have control of the site for the future and it’s demolition will help run up the downtown hotel occupancy number which will help in financing a new hotel.

1 hour ago, Cincy513 said:

The bengals can extend their completely free lease for another 15 years if they want.  They have three 5 year extension options.  So it's just a matter of can they come to an agreement on a new lease with the county in the next couple of years.  Or if talks stall they'll try again after another 10+ years of the current lease.  

 

I believe it's five individual two-year extensions for a total of 10 years. Unless that was renegotiated at some point.

18 minutes ago, 646empire said:

That’s exactly what it’s sounding like! But now they have 10s of millions less to work with since they spent it on the acquisition and demo of the millennium. Sad. The only positives is we now have control of the site for the future and it’s demolition will help run up the downtown hotel occupancy number which will help in financing a new hotel.

 

And Convention Place is also going to be demolished and remain a parking lot for the foreseeable future as well. Actually, the best outcome might be for 3CDC to buy them out and incorporate that land into their development.

2 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

And Convention Place is also going to be demolished and remain a parking lot for the foreseeable future as well. Actually, the best outcome might be for 3CDC to buy them out and incorporate that land into their development.

I agree. 

those horrible gray concrete walkways. that's what makes the bengals the team they are. what i would call a brand new stadium is in dire need of a $200 million paint job. i wouldn't go to the voters for that one.

8 hours ago, jwulsin said:

Here's a video of the short hearing which was held yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L84JlvUKvVQ

 

The hearing was about what happens to the site immediately after the Millenium demolition is completed. The Port is planning to plant grass and shrubs and install a perimeter fence. The landscaping and maintenance plan is required because The Port anticipates it being vacant beyond downtown's 6-month maximum for leaving a site vacant. 

 

In response to "are there any plans yet to redevelop the site?"

Chris Meyer from The Port responded: "The short answer to your question is no. The bigger picture is to examine the redevelopment or some kind of expansion of the convention center and then whatever should happen on this site shall be coordinated with those future plans. Maybe that means a hotel. If the hotel goes elsewhere, maybe that means some other form of complex that would complement the explansion plans." 

 

So... no real news here. Just that it's continuing to be a piece in the broader "convention expansion" puzzle. 

 

 

If people do not see the consequences of Cranley's mayoralship it is bright in picture here. If we had simply gone with the original developer, despite the issues with how we got there, Cranley then turned around and blew up the deal, similar to how he blew up the Banks Public Partnership in 2019 over the Music Center, over county to city squabbles. 

 

Now it is about to be 2022, and we are making a world cup bid, with NO CONVENTION CENTER HOTEL. And with no plan in site. It is simply terrible. 

 

This needs to be the number one priority of the next city administration, to go over and actually work with the Port, Hamilton County and perhaps stoke 3cdc into the deal. 

I may be reading the situtation wrong, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I recall Cranley blowing up the original deal with Vandecar

9 hours ago, 646empire said:

It’s far from finalized. Like everything that is sports venue related in this city expect some drama ahead. If the Bengals are competitive with a good team over the next couple years that may actually help the process believe it or not.

Very interesting that they're suddenly competitive, eh?

 

I mean, I've been all for the bengals getting the boot from the city/county for years...and even I've fallen in love with Joe Burrow.

Meanwhile in Seattle, the new Washington State Convention Center expansion is taking shape (via):

 

 

Remind me again why Cincinnati's needs to be a 1-story building spanning 3 blocks instead of going vertical ... ???

1 hour ago, taestell said:

Meanwhile in Seattle, the new Washington State Convention Center expansion is taking shape (via):

 

 

Remind me again why Cincinnati's needs to be a 1-story building spanning 3 blocks instead of going vertical ... ???

Because I do not think they contemplate building an entire new facility and I do not know if the existing facility can support multiple levels of convention space. I think if you build from scratch it is a no brainer and you build up. Not sure about the currrent scenario

12 hours ago, taestell said:

Meanwhile in Seattle, the new Washington State Convention Center expansion is taking shape (via):

 

 

Remind me again why Cincinnati's needs to be a 1-story building spanning 3 blocks instead of going vertical ... ???

 

Hell we cant even get a new hotel planned, designed, and prepped for funding and approvals from the (port, city, county, cvb) you think they would actually be smart and forth coming like this? 

oop

Vandercar wins summary judgment against Port in Millennium redevelopment case - Cincinnati Business Courier (bizjournals.com)

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/11/04/vandercar-wins-summary-judgment-port.html

We always talk about the convention center hotel as it relates to the convention center, but losing the 900 rooms of the Millennium also affects things like our World Cup Bid. Maybe we can start construction on a new hotel on the south side of the convention center while Millennium is still being demolished, otherwise this will sit in limbo forever while convention expansion is discussed.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/11/16/berding-on-usa-mexico-s-impact-on-cincinnati-s-wor.html

 

"The match showed again how badly Cincinnati needs a downtown headquarters hotel. Government officials and developers have been working to replace the Millennium Hotel near the Duke Energy Convention Center.

“We must and we will have the headquarters hotel,” Berding said. “When you go from a 26,000 crowd to 65,000, we know we need more hotel capacity. I don’t know that it’s a new learning, but it certainly was affirmed.”

On 11/16/2021 at 10:42 AM, ucgrady said:

We always talk about the convention center hotel as it relates to the convention center, but losing the 900 rooms of the Millennium also affects things like our World Cup Bid. Maybe we can start construction on a new hotel on the south side of the convention center while Millennium is still being demolished, otherwise this will sit in limbo forever while convention expansion is discussed.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/11/16/berding-on-usa-mexico-s-impact-on-cincinnati-s-wor.html

 

"The match showed again how badly Cincinnati needs a downtown headquarters hotel. Government officials and developers have been working to replace the Millennium Hotel near the Duke Energy Convention Center.

“We must and we will have the headquarters hotel,” Berding said. “When you go from a 26,000 crowd to 65,000, we know we need more hotel capacity. I don’t know that it’s a new learning, but it certainly was affirmed.”

 

It really is a joke, considering there was plans developed by Elevar a couple years ago for this convention hotel. Someone needs to light a fire under the county, port, and city. Its embarrassing about the lack of future plan or development for the convention hotel 

12 minutes ago, savadams13 said:

 

It really is a joke, considering there was plans developed by Elevar a couple years ago for this convention hotel. Someone needs to light a fire under the county, port, and city. Its embarrassing about the lack of future plan or development for the convention hotel 

 

Im confused…the fcc group of owners are comprised of billionaires who have connections and access to many developers and ways of financing. 
 

If they think the convention center hotel will affect their bid, then why don’t they try to offer to add some of their financing to the equation? 
 

Cincinnati, for a city of its size, has a crap ton of wealthy families who are very intertwined with city politics and high level political city figures. 
 

why don’t they do anything about it?

It would be nice to see what happens with the reconfiguration of all the interstate spaghetti that will be affected by a new (or supplementary) Bridge across the Ohio. IMO the best option for the convention center is to push out over 75. Availability of this option would certainly affect the considerations for the block where a new hotel would go.

I'm being pollyannaish, though. 

2 hours ago, Troeros2 said:

 

Im confused…the fcc group of owners are comprised of billionaires who have connections and access to many developers and ways of financing. 
 

If they think the convention center hotel will affect their bid, then why don’t they try to offer to add some of their financing to the equation? 
 

Cincinnati, for a city of its size, has a crap ton of wealthy families who are very intertwined with city politics and high level political city figures. 
 

why don’t they do anything about it?

Because nobody loves sweet sweet taxpayer funded socialism more than the wealthy.