Will we have height confirmation tomorrow?

1 hour ago, ColDayMan said:

Will we have height confirmation tomorrow?

 

Museum Plaza.  

Like as in the failed museum plaza in Louisville? That thing was planned at 700' plus feet

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

 

Museum Plaza.  

I was so jealous when that project in Louisville was announced but silly for thinking it would actually be built lol.

Edited January 19, 20232 yr by 646empire

3 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

Will we have height confirmation tomorrow?

Hopefully: 350-400ft

Will prolly be more in the range of 275-325ft. 
 

With a quicker start time hopefully won’t end up like the convention hotel in Kansas City with the reduction in height. 
 

I hope they chose the Matthews or Inland designs ngl 

Part of me really likes the Portman design, although I think it would be best if it were taller, I like how it integrates with the street on the lower levels. Second I like the Inland design I think

Does our group have a mutual design we all hope wins? I'm all about the height too, how tall are we talking?

5 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

Museum Plaza.  

 

Sounds like a dog whistle for Matthews. I think that one seemed to be the rank-ordered winner based on a quick scan of posts right after the renderings were shared. It would be my fave...

Any updates on the rumored announcement?

I was wrong about the hotel developer being announced today, they must still be working out the details of the contract with the winner. The Whex garage is to be purchased by 3CDC for the hotel to use to avoid having to build new structured parking. The renderings 3CDC shared a few months back for the convention center will be significantly VE'd (no surprise) due to rising interest rates and construction costs. The wing over Elm is no more and the "hills" will be scaled back significantly, if not entirely. ~12,000 sq ft of additional exhibition space will be added on to the east side, and the outdoor area which they showed in the renderings will be a public plaza when not in use by the convention center. The ice rink will move here from Fountain Square, and presumably a few other programs would shift to this new site. On the subject of expansion, they seemed more interested in a future expansion over Elm street rather than west towards I75.

 

As far as the district goes, details were sparse, but it was mentioned that the city is working to acquire the air rights which Saks held and redevelop that space, the Hyatt ballroom would remain on top. Port is working on facelifts/improvements on the garages to the north of the center. 

...but...but...the height of the new hotel tower?

 

17 minutes ago, dnymck said:

On the subject of expansion, they seemed more interested in a future expansion over Elm street rather than west towards I75.

I think this is short sighted and I hope as BSB moves forward with federal funding this changes because further destroying the downtown street grid is not the answer. 

 

The "hills" were the only distinguishing design feature from those 3CDC renderings so that's disappointing but not super surprising that the shape of the building is being VE'd

28 minutes ago, dnymck said:

 The ice rink will move here from Fountain Square, and presumably a few other programs would shift to this new site. On the subject of expansion, they seemed more interested in a future expansion over Elm street rather than west towards I75.

 

As far as the district goes, details were sparse, but it was mentioned that the city is working to acquire the air rights which Saks held and redevelop that space, the Hyatt ballroom would remain on top. Port is working on facelifts/improvements on the garages to the north of the center. 

Why move the ice rink?

 

I get the idea to create a vibrant convention district, but you still do not want to take away from Fountain Sq which is traditionally the gathering point of the city. They should keep the rink on the square as that still should be the focal point of downtown. They have already developed the infrastructure around that area that the convention district does not have. You dont have the streetcar access to the convention area like you do Ftn Sq, for example.

27 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Why move the ice rink?

 

I get the idea to create a vibrant convention district, but you still do not want to take away from Fountain Sq which is traditionally the gathering point of the city. They should keep the rink on the square as that still should be the focal point of downtown. They have already developed the infrastructure around that area that the convention district does not have. You dont have the streetcar access to the convention area like you do Ftn Sq, for example.

I think the reason is two fold: the current location is very tight and it's difficult to operate, and the second is that they know moving some events here can help activate this area of downtown and familiarize people with the district as it continues to be redeveloped.

4 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

You dont have the streetcar access to the convention area like you do Ftn Sq, for example.

 

The streetcar should be extended down Race, Elm, or split between the two (continue the current configuration that exists above 12th down to The Banks).  This way both the east and west sides of Downtown have easy public transportation access north to Washington Park and Findlay Market.

14 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

The streetcar should be extended down Race, Elm, or split between the two (continue the current configuration that exists above 12th down to The Banks).  This way both the east and west sides of Downtown have easy public transportation access north to Washington Park and Findlay Market.

realistically, that is not going to happen. Just think how hard it is to expand the streetcar already. There are higher priority projects for the streetcar that they would want to accomplish first before going down the Race/Elm corridor

9 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

realistically, that is not going to happen. Just think how hard it is to expand the streetcar already. There are higher priority projects for the streetcar that they would want to accomplish first before going down the Race/Elm corridor

 

The densest part of the city not served by the streetcar is the west half of downtown.  The new branch could be at least partially in its own protected lane and have the priority signaling that doesn't exist on Main/Walnut, meaning 2 streetcars might be able to achieve the frequency of 3 on the existing Main/Walnut tracks.  It'll take about 8,000 feet of single-track (4,000ft route length) to do this and it'll make the existing track north of 12th St. much more useful since people up there will have two route options.  It'll be really easy for visitors to understand. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

New twists in fight over key convention center-area building as Port seeks demolition

 

The Port of Greater Cincinnati Development Authority moved Tuesday to settle outstanding lease interests in a key downtown property near the convention center.

 

This, as the Port seeks permission to demolish the property over the objections of a local developer who says he has the right to redevelop the deteriorating building on the site.

 

The Port's board voted to spend $400,000 to settle leasehold interests companies have at 435 Elm St., the property formerly known as Convention Place Mall.

 

With the vote, the Port’s board changed the way the payments would be made. Instead of using the proceeds from an eventual, future bond sale to redevelop the property, it will make those payments soon out of its existing funds.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/01/25/port-435-elm-twists.html

 

Does anyone know when they will announce the developer? sOmeone mentioned that they have been chosen 

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Does anyone know when they will announce the developer? sOmeone mentioned that they have been chosen 

We won't be getting a Loews...

On 11/2/2022 at 9:42 AM, ColDayMan said:

3CDC reveals headquarters hotel developers as cost estimate rises

 

The Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. unveiled four potential developers for the new, 800-room convention center hotel on Tuesday, which 3CDC CEO Steve Leeper now estimates will cost $500 million.

That’s up from a number he floated in May — $360 million.

 

The potential developers are Atlanta-based Portman, Dallas-based Matthews Southwest, Westminster, Colo.-based Inland Pacific Company and Grapevine, Texas-based Newcrest Image. The region plans to put the new hotel south of the convention center in a vacant parking lot along Fifth Street.

 

3CDC got those four expressions of interest in the project from national developers and they were sufficient enough for all to be asked for a formal proposal, which the nonprofit developer received last week. All four will be interviewed this month by 3CDC, the city, the county, Visit Cincy, the Port of Greater Cincinnati Development Authority, the Cincinnati Business Committee, the Cincinnati USA Regional Chamber and the Greater Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky African American Chamber.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2022/11/02/convention-hotel-renderings-cost-estimate.html

 

Portman

 

Matthews

 

Inland

 

Newcrest

 

Do we think Matthews or Portman is the winner? Assuming Inland and Newcrest aren't in the running.

2 hours ago, dnymck said:

We won't be getting a Loews...

 

So a 3rd Hilton convention center hotel-brand in Ohio (behind Cleveland and Columbus).  Gotcha! 😋

2 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

 

So a 3rd Hilton convention center hotel-brand in Ohio (behind Cleveland and Columbus).  Gotcha! 😋

Money is on Signia by Hilton brand. I cant see Sheraton or JW coming from the Marriott side. We already have a Hyatt. Wont be Accor, Wyndham, or Choice. Maybe Intercontinental but they as a brand are just not strong in the Midwest. 

Agreed, Signia is my bet as well.

10 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

Agreed, Signia is my bet as well.

If it is I hope we get a design like the one they will be building in Indianapolis. 

It would be nice if the Cincy hotel were that tall. 

Seattle just cut the ribbon on its new 14 story convention center expansion which contains over 10 football fields worth of floor space. Why are we still talking about removing a block of Elm Street and further destroying our downtown street grid to expand our low-rise convention center instead of going vertical?

 

 

5 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

If it is I hope we get a design like the one they will be building in Indianapolis. 

 

Projects like this only happen in other cities...we will end ups with a Hyatt Regency clone.

Think bigger!  It'll be cute!

 

19 hours ago, savadams13 said:

Money is on Signia by Hilton brand. I cant see Sheraton or JW coming from the Marriott side. We already have a Hyatt. Wont be Accor, Wyndham, or Choice. Maybe Intercontinental but they as a brand are just not strong in the Midwest. 

 

Agree.  I'd say it helps that the Hilton downtown is a dump (guest rooms, not the iconic restaurant or ballroom) with an uncertain future.  Hilton needs a respectable flagship property.  

Hilton has already threatened to pull their flag from the Netherland Plaza, FWIW.

41 minutes ago, taestell said:

Hilton has already threatened to pull their flag from the Netherland Plaza, FWIW.

 

Makes sense.  I don't see how anyone can easily fix up that hotel.  It needs much more than just a facelift.  

The multi-floored Seattle expansion looks like it was horrendously expensive to build.  The parking garage appears to be supported on a truss structure above the convention hall.  

 

It's at least theoretically possible that a new convention hall could be built below-grade on the Millennium site *and* below Elm St., so as to preserve the street and to gain an extra 80' strip up to the current lobby.   Stuff would have to be loaded in/out via a truck elevator.  The Seattle expansion is on a slope and so the "basement" appears to be at ground level on one side of the building.  

 

 

 

 

 

So any news on when this will be announced? It seems like they picked the developer already? Any updates on the timeline?

8 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

So any news on when this will be announced? It seems like they picked the developer already? Any updates on the timeline?

 

I don't think they have any idea what they're doing.  

 

If they were going to expand the Convention Center east, they should have done it back before the Dunhumby project.  They should have left that half of the block empty in anticipation of getting the Millennium.  

 

Then, they planned for a minor expansion of the Convention Center eastward, using only half of the block, after the Dunhumby building went up.  

 

The late 2019 purchase of the Millennium predated Covid.  In fact, I went to the furniture auction which was in February or March of 2020, right before the Covid lockdown.   

 

At that time they had no way of knowing that huge federal aid was going to come to the Brent Spence project and free up the land west of Central Ave. that they've wanted since the 1990s.  

 

So now they have the unexpected option to expand BOTH east (a minor expansion) and west (a major expansion).  

 

 

 

 

Idea: expand east, but incorporate the Dunhumby building into a lobby facing Race St.  Remember how the garage was build level in anticipation of a future office conversion?  

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

So now they have the unexpected option to expand BOTH east (a minor expansion) and west (a major expansion).

 

It's good to have options, me thinks. I'll be curious to see how the short-term plan of using the former Millennium site as a programmable space for events works out. I'm not sure other cities have anything quite comparable. It could be a neat, unique selling point for events/conferences. The space is about the size of a football field (160'x 370'). I have no idea how many events/conferences actually want that much outdoor space, but I like the idea of being able to close that block of Elm St for special events and having people move freely back-and-forth. I could imagine various sporting events/competitions/conferences liking to have both indoor and outdoor spaces directly adjacent. 

One has to think this is all part of an effort to compete for bigger national events like political nominating conventions, the NFL Draft, etc. I wonder if we would have had a better shot at the World Cup 2026 if these issues were already resolved.

16 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

One has to think this is all part of an effort to compete for bigger national events like political nominating conventions, the NFL Draft, etc. I wonder if we would have had a better shot at the World Cup 2026 if these issues were already resolved.

It would have helped but I think we would still have fell short on the World Cup just because we were not as established as a soccer city yet. We were still the newcomers to the fold at that time. Kansas City had a history. If we had an additional 10 year runway as a soccer town things may have been different. Also, having the Hunt family as involved in soccer as they are helps out a ton from a political standpoint. 

The NFL draft, CopaAmerica in 2024/2025 could be big events that could come our way though if we get our act together on the hotel. 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

expand BOTH east (a minor expansion) and west (a major expansion).  

 

Plus, under Cranley, they moved the Union Terminal murals from the demolished CVG Terminals A and B to the west side of the Convention Center.  

 

So did they do this because they never had an intention to expand the center westward across Central Ave., or did they do it to MAKE IT LOOK LIKE they had no intention to do so?

 

Cranley has a long-established pattern of wasting money to throw people off his trail, so I suspect that latter.  

 

 

I don't think there anything to extrapolate from the placement of the murals on the convention center's west side. The terminals were going to demolished, we needed to put the murals somewhere, it was a blank wall, done. They can be moved to a more permanent location (where people might actually see them) if the convention center expands west.

37 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 we were not as established as a soccer city yet.

Is the bar for this MLS? Because Cincinnati, going back to the 1970s, was a leader in the popularity of soccer in the U.S. 
Youth soccer has been huge here (and in St. Louis, another newcomer to MLS) far longer than most everywhere else in this country. It's a leading factor in why FCC came screaming out of the gate.

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

It would have helped but I think we would still have fell short on the World Cup just because we were not as established as a soccer city yet.

Even by the earliest local workings of a formal World Cup bid (before the USSF even officially announced a three nation bid), Cincinnati was already drawing massive crowds at the lower division, and (arguably more intriguing) was one of the strongest markets for international soccer viewership in the US. 
 

What ultimately hamstrung Cincinnati’s bid (which still did relatively well) was the lack of rapid transit, minuscule available public transit, no substantial plans for improved transit, and a small (by available flights) airport. 
 

A convention center expansion would’ve looked nice in a power point, but I don’t think it would’ve moved the needle.

5 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

I don't think they have any idea what they're doing.  

 

If they were going to expand the Convention Center east, they should have done it back before the Dunhumby project.  They should have left that half of the block empty in anticipation of getting the Millennium.  

 

Then, they planned for a minor expansion of the Convention Center eastward, using only half of the block, after the Dunhumby building went up.  

 

The late 2019 purchase of the Millennium predated Covid.  In fact, I went to the furniture auction which was in February or March of 2020, right before the Covid lockdown.   

 

At that time they had no way of knowing that huge federal aid was going to come to the Brent Spence project and free up the land west of Central Ave. that they've wanted since the 1990s.  

 

So now they have the unexpected option to expand BOTH east (a minor expansion) and west (a major expansion).  

 

 

 

 

You have to keep in mind all of what you listed was before 3CDC took over the Convention planning. They know what they are doing now.

4 hours ago, Gordon Bombay said:

What ultimately hamstrung Cincinnati’s bid (which still did relatively well) was the lack of rapid transit, minuscule available public transit, no substantial plans for improved transit, and a small (by available flights) airport. 

Maybe against cities like Boston, Atlanta, Dallas, New York and LA. Yes, that would be true. 

However, Cincinnati is not in that peer group. We were competing against Nashville, Kansas City, Charlotte for spots. 

Kansas City essentially won that spot.  Compare Cincinnati to KC, you have a similar sized airport, but I would argue you have better connectivity out of CVG, neither city has great rapid transit. Both have a streetcar in their city center.

 

At least in Cincy, you are 15 minutes from the airport to Paycor and downtown, you have a very concentrated area where you have the hotels, stadium and other soccer amenities in a very concentrated area. In KC, the stadium is 15 minutes from downtown along the interstate. There is no walkability there, and certainly no transit beyond cars (or bus shuttles on gameday). There are no hotels by Burrowhead stadium (I know they lost, but it will be Burrowhead in 2023, just wait and see ;)). All the good hotels in KC will be downtown and not near the stadium.  

 

I do not doubt that transit plays a role in the matter, but that is not why Cincinnati lost out in the World cup. The biggest thing that KC had that separated itself was a convention hotel. I think that was a bigger matter than transit when you compare the two cities. KC also had better political connections to get the ball across the finish line. 

 

Now, if you were comparing the cincy bid to Philly or Boston or Atlanta, then, yes, they have better transit in those cities. But the Cincy bid was never competing with those cities. 

5 hours ago, zsnyder said:

Is the bar for this MLS? Because Cincinnati, going back to the 1970s, was a leader in the popularity of soccer in the U.S. 
Youth soccer has been huge here (and in St. Louis, another newcomer to MLS) far longer than most everywhere else in this country. It's a leading factor in why FCC came screaming out of the gate.

Popularity aside, Cincinnati was a newcomer on the MLS and US soccer stage. Cincy may be a very strong soccer city but with the World Cup, who were the power brokers? Robert Kraft, the Hunt Family, etc. are those that command the influence on the US soccer scene. Cincy does not yet have ownership that carries that cache. The Hunt family has a trophy named after them (both in football and US Soccer) so they carry a lot of influence with the US delegation before FIFA. 

15 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 

 

Kansas City essentially won that spot.  Compare Cincinnati to KC, you have a similar sized airport, but I would argue you have better connectivity out of CVG, neither city has great rapid transit. Both have a streetcar in their city center.

 

Not to mention, CVG Has a transatlantic flight to Paris And while not the case, at the time, the bed was won by Kansas City now has a flight to London starting in June. 

Any updates on the design chosen? Was supposed to be picked by New Years, taking longer than expected. 

2 hours ago, stashua123 said:

Any updates on the design chosen? Was supposed to be picked by New Years, taking longer than expected. 

 

Nope the whole Convention Place and Chinedum Ndukwe has everything tied up until further notice. The Port and 3CDC want that property, Judge Alan Triggs is allowing Ndukwe to prove he deserves and has ownership in the building. Its a total clusterfuck situation at the moment. 

Edited February 20, 20232 yr by savadams13