1 hour ago, 646empire said:

 

Leeper isn't Black tho, she describes the person as African American, but I get your point

 

I think her quote was meant to start with the word "If" so it what she actually said was "If an African American had behaved in such a way they probably would have been escorted out of here..."

2 hours ago, Miami-Erie said:

Those are not pointed questions. If anything, they are project fundamentals that were established long ago. 

I thought the same thing; I've given presentations to government officials and it can be frustrating to repeat yourself or focus on details that seem obvious to an architect/contractor but may be more difficult for a lay person to digest and fully understand. I would be shocked if someone from the development team was rude or snippy however, because at the end of the day if it's your paying client you answer the same question a dozen times in a row if that's what you need to do, so I agree it would be more likely to be with someone from 3CDC or the city or someone who feels more entitled to just kind of be ready to move on and might've gotten impatient. 

2 hours ago, 646empire said:

 

Leeper isn't Black tho, she describes the person as African American, but I get your point

I thought she said "If an African American behaved in such a way" 

51 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

 

I think her quote was meant to start with the word "If" so it what she actually said was "If an African American had behaved in such a way they probably would have been escorted out of here..."

Very interesting point! I think your right!

Edited September 18, 20231 yr by 646empire

What's the point of putting this out in the media if you won't actually talk about any of the supposed issues?  This just makes Reece look further incompetent.  

Yeah if Portman and 3cdc arent going for 800 rooms thats unacceptable to me. 

 

And it looks like as we hunched it was 3cdc and not portman who was hostile.

 

Quote

Reece said she wants to know how much exhibit space the expanded convention center will have and how many rooms the new hotel will have. She wants a guarantee in writing the new hotel will have 800 rooms, the same number of rooms the now-demolished Millennium Hotel had.

"We've got to get 800 rooms back," Reece said. "That just puts us even-steven."

She said her questions were met with anger that she would even ask them.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2023/09/19/what-did-alicia-reece-say-happened-in-meeting-with-3cdc/70889252007/

Edited September 19, 20231 yr by stashua123

Quote

 

Reece said she wants to know how much exhibit space the expanded convention center will have and how many rooms the new hotel will have. She wants a guarantee in writing the new hotel will have 800 rooms, the same number of rooms the now-demolished Millennium Hotel had.

"We've got to get 800 rooms back," Reece said. "That just puts us even-steven."

 

 

I mean, she's not wrong...

She's definitely not wrong and she's nothing if she's not a savvy politician. Who said the hotel will have less than 800 rooms?

9 hours ago, stashua123 said:

Yeah if Portman and 3cdc arent going for 800 rooms thats unacceptable to me. 

 

And it looks like as we hunched it was 3cdc and not portman who was hostile.

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2023/09/19/what-did-alicia-reece-say-happened-in-meeting-with-3cdc/70889252007/

Interesting, wouldn’t 3cdc want as many rooms as possible too? Did the financing and or hotel flag come back reflecting a hotel in the 600-700 room range like Louisvilles Omni or Cleveland’s Hilton? We need to do some digging!

Edited September 19, 20231 yr by 646empire

I did digging on the Commissioners meeting last week and this is her quote. 

 

"If we say 800 rooms we shouldn't be applying for grants and we write down 600 rooms"

 

This seems to be what sourced her concerns. And if that's what they're writing on grants is 600 rooms it makes sense why she wants 800 rooms as a written agreement. 

20 hours ago, 646empire said:

Very interesting point! I think your right!

She came out on the radio today and reluctantly admitted it was Leeper she was talking about. She was a bit hesitant to do so but she said it anyway.

2 hours ago, stashua123 said:

I did digging on the Commissioners meeting last week and this is her quote. 

 

"If we say 800 rooms we shouldn't be applying for grants and we write down 600 rooms"

Agreed that is a fair concern, if they said we can't fit 800 rooms in our proforma but we have 778 that's a rounding error, but 600 is only 3/4 the size of the Millennium it's supposed to be replacing. 

Am I missing something? I have some pretty good connections on the renovation project and none have mentioned an expansion but the media and Alicia keeps referring to a Hotel and Convention Center expansion. I assume they are talking about the added outdoor and potential rooftop space???

 

“Reece said she wants to know how much exhibit space the expanded convention center will have and how many rooms the new hotel will have.”

 

Grant apparently said 675 rooms instead of 800 according to Commissioner Reece on Scott Sloans show. 

 

That's still quite a difference and one that is below the minimum needed as sold to us from the hotel study before they decided to tear down the millennium. 

 

World Cup officials wanted us to have a headquarter hotel with at least 800 rooms. 

Edited September 19, 20231 yr by stashua123

15 minutes ago, stashua123 said:

Grant apparently said 675 rooms instead of 800 according to Commissioner Reece on Scott Sloans show. 

 

That's still quite a difference and one that is below the minimum needed as sold to us from the hotel study before they decided to tear down the millennium. 

 

World Cup officials wanted us to have a headquarter hotel with at least 800 rooms. 

I thought the hotel was going to have 800 rooms based on what they said in the renderings. Did it get scaled down recently?

 

 

Shouldn’t there be a public record of this meeting?

Downtown Columbus Hilton has 1,000 beds.

Downtown Cleveland Hilton has 800 beds.

 

800 was the minimum mentioned for major conventions (RNC recently) and events like the World Cup.

 

Let's hope Cincinnati doesn't screw this up.

7 minutes ago, ZoeBarnes said:

Shouldn’t there be a public record of this meeting?

Im hoping this was the CFA meeting as there would have to be records of such.

 

this sounds like it was a meeting between the hamilton county administrator and 3cdc, then the administrator invited Alicia..... 

2 hours ago, Miami-Erie said:

Downtown Columbus Hilton has 1,000 beds.

Downtown Cleveland Hilton has 800 beds.

 

800 was the minimum mentioned for major conventions (RNC recently) and events like the World Cup.

 

Let's hope Cincinnati doesn't screw this up.

I think there is some confusion about these numbers for example Cleveland may have 800 beds but it’s Hilton is a 600 room hotel. So if Cincy will be at 675 rooms for example it would probably be 800+ beds. So this all could be a big misunderstanding 

Edited September 20, 20231 yr by 646empire

That would be my hope that it's simply confusion. Press releases do state 800 rooms consistently when Portman design came out. 

 

I hope this is addressed at the county commisoners meeting this week. I do think a weeks long cooling off period would be a mistake as it would crunch the timetable

8 hours ago, 646empire said:

Am I missing something? I have some pretty good connections on the renovation project and none have mentioned an expansion but the media and Alicia keeps referring to a Hotel and Convention Center expansion. I assume they are talking about the added outdoor and potential rooftop space???

 

“Reece said she wants to know how much exhibit space the expanded convention center will have and how many rooms the new hotel will have.”

 

Maybe the fact the CFA didn't have a meeting until last week, meaning April - September without a meeting, caused some large communications gaps?

 

There hasn't been an update since like May on either Convention Center or Hotel, which I'm assuming will be updated soon. 

10 hours ago, stashua123 said:

Maybe the fact the CFA didn't have a meeting until last week, meaning April - September without a meeting, caused some large communications gaps?

 

There hasn't been an update since like May on either Convention Center or Hotel, which I'm assuming will be updated soon. 

Yeah the convention Center plan was to go public this week from what I heard with a work shop next week. But this whole Alicia thing might have put a damper a bit. 

Messer, Jostin, Triversity to lead construction on $200M Duke Energy Convention Center overhaul

By Chris Wetterich – Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

Sep 25, 2023

Updated Sep 25, 2023 5:50pm EDT

 

The Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. has selected three firms to manage the Duke Energy Convention Center redevelopment project and announced an event for potential subcontractors on Wednesday, Sept. 27.

 

Messer Construction, Triversity Construction and Jostin Construction will manage construction on the redevelopment, with Triversity and Jostin being minority business enterprises and accounting for 40% of the project.

 

All three will have representatives to meet with subcontractors at the event, which is being held along with the Greater Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky African American Chamber of Commerce. The chamber is serving as an inclusion consultant.

 

MORE

Info coming out..

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/09/26/duke-energy-convention-renovation-hotel-tax.html

Edited September 26, 20231 yr by 646empire

I'm most curious about the "Add programmable outdoor space at the former Millennium site across Elm Street, east of the convention center." and how that will be connected/integrated into the design so it doesn't feel like a random fenced off field like it currently does. Removable bollards or something to temporarily close off Elm for big events would be interesting if the whole thing feels like a cohesive plaza and not just a vacant lot. The original waves/humps connected structurally across Elm but I'm guessing that was VE'd out along with those big undulating shapes. 

19 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I'm most curious about the "Add programmable outdoor space at the former Millennium site across Elm Street, east of the convention center." and how that will be connected/integrated into the design so it doesn't feel like a random fenced off field like it currently does. Removable bollards or something to temporarily close off Elm for big events would be interesting if the whole thing feels like a cohesive plaza and not just a vacant lot. The original waves/humps connected structurally across Elm but I'm guessing that was VE'd out along with those big undulating shapes. 

 

 

https://x.com/ChrisCinciBiz/status/1706720130581827602?s=20

Edited September 26, 20231 yr by tonyt3524

Is the presentation from which these images come publicly available anywhere?

Only ones I found are here: https://www.cincinnati.com/picture-gallery/news/politics/2023/09/26/heres-what-a-renovated-duke-energy-convention-center-will-look-like/70975097007/

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, ucgrady said:

I'm most curious about the "Add programmable outdoor space at the former Millennium site across Elm Street, east of the convention center." and how that will be connected/integrated into the design so it doesn't feel like a random fenced off field like it currently does. Removable bollards or something to temporarily close off Elm for big events would be interesting if the whole thing feels like a cohesive plaza and not just a vacant lot. The original waves/humps connected structurally across Elm but I'm guessing that was VE'd out along with those big undulating shapes. 

 

 

Food trucks. Shipping Containers.  String lights.  Big mural that doesn't make sense. 

 

Wow. 

 

What happens to the old Albee theater front at the end of Plum? Not seeing it in these renders.

Guess the rooftop terrace got nixed?

I still don't understand this.   All the original complaints were that the Convention Center wasn't large enough.  Slapping some lipstick on it isn't going to change that.    The Bridge Forward proposal looks to be getting more traction with ODOT, they are going back and forth and revising their plan.   Latest plans have a large block of open space.   Seems to me it would make the most sense to just wait the 10 years or how ever long it is, and build a new larger convention center there.    This update seems like a waste of Money.

47 minutes ago, tonyt3524 said:

Guess the rooftop terrace got nixed?

Yupp pretty much all the exciting stuff got taken out. 200 million on a building that big isn’t really much to do anything fancy.

19 minutes ago, JoeHarmon said:

I still don't understand this.   All the original complaints were that the Convention Center wasn't large enough.  Slapping some lipstick on it isn't going to change that.    The Bridge Forward proposal looks to be getting more traction with ODOT, they are going back and forth and revising their plan.   Latest plans have a large block of open space.   Seems to me it would make the most sense to just wait the 10 years or how ever long it is, and build a new larger convention center there.    This update seems like a waste of Money.

 

Cincinnati isn’t building a new center from scratch period. It’s not in the cards. The existing center is going to be apart of the future. No offense to you but I’m always amazed by the “let’s build a new one” chatter like we can just print money. A new convention center in 10-15 years would cost just about the same as a brand new stadium 1.5-2+ Billion Dollars lol it’s not happening. And the idea of just letting the old center rot for the next decade until a more expensive project can happen is silly. Whats the point of building the hotel if the center is trash and can’t book events???. This renovation will hold us over until we can afford a larger project .

Edited September 27, 20231 yr by 646empire

1 hour ago, JYP said:

What happens to the old Albee theater front at the end of Plum? Not seeing it in these renders.

 

Maybe it'll end up in a Cincinnati Park like the old Chamber of Commerce remnants?

Edited September 27, 20231 yr by Miami-Erie

44 minutes ago, 646empire said:

 

Cincinnati isn’t building a new center from scratch period. It’s not in the cards. The existing center is going to be apart of the future. No offense to you but I’m always amazed by the “let’s build a new one” chatter like we can just print money. A new convention center in 10-15 years would cost just about the same as a brand new stadium 1.5-2+ Billion Dollars lol it’s not happening. And the idea of just letting the old center rot for the next decade until a more expensive project can happen is silly. Whats the point of building the hotel if the center is trash and can’t book events???. This renovation will hold us over until we can afford a larger project .

I get the argument, and it makes sense. My only complaint is that they are doing a bad job selling this. Does it set them up for an expansion in the future? They don't seem to be clear about this, but if that's true, then this project will actually save money in the long run. I noted the utilities are being worked on so hopefully there's some future proofing in those renovations.

In either case, it feels like a lose-lose situation. If they don't do this, then the deal for the hotel might fall apart. To avoid the situation we are in, they could have kept the existing hotel but then people would be upset they'd be spending millions of dollars on renovations on an outdated hotel that would be demolished eventually.

57 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

 

Maybe it'll end up in a Cincinnati Park like the old Chamber of Commerce remnants?

That's my hope. Like a triumphal arch. Put it up at Bellevue or down at Smale framing the river.

Edited September 27, 20231 yr by dnymck

12 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

Only ones I found are here: https://www.cincinnati.com/picture-gallery/news/politics/2023/09/26/heres-what-a-renovated-duke-energy-convention-center-will-look-like/70975097007/

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing. These renderings are...uninspiring to say the least.

23 minutes ago, Dev said:

I get the argument, and it makes sense. My only complaint is that they are doing a bad job selling this. Does it set them up for an expansion in the future? They don't seem to be clear about this, but if that's true, then this project will actually save money in the long run. I noted the utilities are being worked on so hopefully there's some future proofing in those renovations.

In either case, it feels like a lose-lose situation. If they don't do this, then the deal for the hotel might fall apart. To avoid the situation we are in, they could have kept the existing hotel but then people would be upset they'd be spending millions of dollars on renovations on an outdated hotel that would be demolished eventually.

Any major expansion will come from the new land reclaimed from the 75 BSB project. That will take at least 10 years do complete. The center cannot wait 10 years at this point. You need to upgrade it now and build the hotel. Once you upgrade, then you begin to lay the groundwork for the expansion. Once they know how much land they will be able to reclaim to the west will determine how big the expansion can be (and how much they should plan for in an expansion.  

 

Remember the duke expansion opened in 2004/2005. It was already obsolete a couple of years into it. WIthin 10 years it was already in need of expansion/renovation to compete. If they do this renovation now, it will make it easier to expand in 10 years when the land becomes available. 

to my knowledge stone, steel and glass don't rot. To think that people won't come to conventions because it looks like 1980s seems a little far fetched to me. to put $200 mil. into and existing building that looks pretty good and not get additional space seems to me like a colossal waste. Although I do like the idea of a skating rink in the proposed park idea.  If they do go ahead with this facade, I would take the Albee frontis and put it where the new mural is in the new park. Then put the rink dead center in front of the Albee part and build the rest of the park around those two items. If presented right it could have an effect like the skating rink in front of Rockefeller Center in NYC. Just to add a bit more; include The Fountain "Genius of Water" as part of the Albee facade. How many people know to look to their right as they pass the only view of the Albee from a block away with traffic coming at you? And the fountain is lost where it is now. As the people of Cincy want to keep their past intact, which is impossible, the old buildings with beautiful facades are repurposed. this proposed park could not only be the resting place for sculptures but maybe their resurrection. At very least people will see Cincinnati past. 

Most conventions likely want large, uninterrupted spaces with customizable layouts and quality tech and amenities. They also want a good convention hotel and good restaurants/bars/activities nearby. I don't think they really care much about the facade or anything unless it's truly an iconic design (as long as it doesn't look dumpy).

1 minute ago, RJohnson said:

To think that people won't come to conventions because it looks like 1980s seems a little far fetched to me.

Far fetched? Really? lol. Very few industries can sell a client on an outdated product from the 1980s. Especially when the competition has better (Louisville, Indy, Columbus etc.

32 minutes ago, RJohnson said:

to my knowledge stone, steel and glass don't rot. To think that people won't come to conventions because it looks like 1980s seems a little far fetched to me. to put $200 mil. into and existing building that looks pretty good and not get additional space seems to me like a colossal waste. Although I do like the idea of a skating rink in the proposed park idea.  If they do go ahead with this facade, I would take the Albee frontis and put it where the new mural is in the new park. Then put the rink dead center in front of the Albee part and build the rest of the park around those two items. If presented right it could have an effect like the skating rink in front of Rockefeller Center in NYC. Just to add a bit more; include The Fountain "Genius of Water" as part of the Albee facade. How many people know to look to their right as they pass the only view of the Albee from a block away with traffic coming at you? And the fountain is lost where it is now. As the people of Cincy want to keep their past intact, which is impossible, the old buildings with beautiful facades are repurposed. this proposed park could not only be the resting place for sculptures but maybe their resurrection. At very least people will see Cincinnati past. 

Conventions are about sizzle and pizzazz. You have to sell the venue, just as the trade group needs to sell the venue to their associates to attend.  Yes, ultimately, a big warehouse room for events is pretty low tech, but you still need to do signficant upgrades to the facility to keep it relevant. Installing the latest LED videoboards, adding terraces for meetings are all important. New skin makes the building attractive too. Also, windows are important. In the past maybe not so much. However, if people are spending a day inside the facility, it would be helpful to catch a glimpse of outside on occasion. This is why you always need to upgrade. Curb appeal is just as important as everything else.

34 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Most conventions likely want large, uninterrupted spaces with customizable layouts and quality tech and amenities. They also want a good convention hotel and good restaurants/bars/activities nearby. I don't think they really care much about the facade or anything unless it's truly an iconic design (as long as it doesn't look dumpy).

Exactly this renovation is very much tech based along with paint, lighting, carpet and such. The center will feel newish when completed. The Facade update is important too, having a convention client getting out of their Uber or walking towards a building that looks dated on the outside is not ok,  similar to why the packaging of your favorite snack in a grocery store is important humans buy with their eyes first. 3CDC is going to hit a lot with a relatively small budget. 

Edited September 27, 20231 yr by 646empire

52 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Conventions are about sizzle and pizzazz. You have to sell the venue, just as the trade group needs to sell the venue to their associates to attend.  Yes, ultimately, a big warehouse room for events is pretty low tech, but you still need to do signficant upgrades to the facility to keep it relevant. Installing the latest LED videoboards, adding terraces for meetings are all important. New skin makes the building attractive too. Also, windows are important. In the past maybe not so much. However, if people are spending a day inside the facility, it would be helpful to catch a glimpse of outside on occasion. This is why you always need to upgrade. Curb appeal is just as important as everything else.

And since they can't compete on space this time around, they are adding in the outdoor park as a unique amenity to attract more customers.

8 minutes ago, Dev said:

And since they can't compete on space this time around, they are adding in the outdoor park as a unique amenity to attract more customers.

And it is pretty unique, I can’t think of many convention centers that have that component, definitely none of the nearby competitors.

The facade of this building only matters because the center is in the downtown.  Many major convention centers are not in a traditional downtown, including the biggest and most successful centers like McCormick Place in Chicago, which has a shuttle bus to DT Chicago. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

The facade of this building only matters because the center is in the downtown.  Many major convention centers are not in a traditional downtown, including the biggest and most successful centers like McCormick Place in Chicago, which has a shuttle bus to DT Chicago. 

 

 

I never understood that place. It is so inconvenient to things and nothing is nearby. Indy has a good center because it is walkable to downtown. Columbus has always been meh in my opinion but the development of the Arena district over the last 20 years has really helped improve that area. Nashville has a good center and convenient to downtown.  

Orlando and Vegas are semi similar in that they are not downtown, not overly walkable but in a resort town that overrides these concerns. People will go there no matter what the center looks like.

 

I liked what St. louis did many years ago when they integrated it with the Dome, but that obviously did not work out great with the football team. The one downside to both Indy and St. louis is that they create a wall on the edge of the city and discourage development on key blocks around the center outside of the front entrance block. Cincinnati has this same issue, but at least 75 blocks out one of those blocks already. The 6th street block wil be the hardest to activate though as it does not seem like much activity is North of the center

4 hours ago, 646empire said:

 

Cincinnati isn’t building a new center from scratch period. It’s not in the cards. The existing center is going to be apart of the future. No offense to you but I’m always amazed by the “let’s build a new one” chatter like we can just print money. A new convention center in 10-15 years would cost just about the same as a brand new stadium 1.5-2+ Billion Dollars lol it’s not happening. And the idea of just letting the old center rot for the next decade until a more expensive project can happen is silly. Whats the point of building the hotel if the center is trash and can’t book events???. This renovation will hold us over until we can afford a larger project .

 

Oh don't get me wrong.  As an environmentalist, I kills me every time some developer tears down a large build only to replace it with a similar building because that is somehow "cheaper", or there is no way you could possibly renovate the existing building to be nice enough, best to tear it down and start over.   And yet, that happens over and over.   For example, the convention center hotel we just tore down only so we can build a new one. 

 

I get everyone's arguments here as to why this is necessary.  I'm just skeptical it will be worth the investment

 

Also, from and urban planning perspective, I HATE how the current convention center blocks Plum street.  Expanding it west and blocking Central will be more bad urban design.  I'm looking at the new proposal from Bridge Forward, they have taken out the bridge connecting 4th since the grade would be to steep on 75.  So it creates a large double wide open space from 3rd to 5th.   Just dreaming from an urban planning perspective, that would be the perfect place for a large convention center.   Because who cares if the convention center is bordered by highways on two sides (75 and FWW).   Then reclaim the current space for residential/commercial, and reconnect plum.   ah, we can dream

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I never understood that place. It is so inconvenient to things and nothing is nearby. Indy has a good center because it is walkable to downtown. Columbus has always been meh in my opinion but the development of the Arena district over the last 20 years has really helped improve that area. Nashville has a good center and convenient to downtown.  

Orlando and Vegas are semi similar in that they are not downtown, not overly walkable but in a resort town that overrides these concerns. People will go there no matter what the center looks like.

 

I liked what St. louis did many years ago when they integrated it with the Dome, but that obviously did not work out great with the football team. The one downside to both Indy and St. louis is that they create a wall on the edge of the city and discourage development on key blocks around the center outside of the front entrance block. Cincinnati has this same issue, but at least 75 blocks out one of those blocks already. The 6th street block wil be the hardest to activate though as it does not seem like much activity is North of the center

My thoughts are as long as this can increase the amount of conventions to Cincinnati it's a win.

 

I've been to a lot of conventions mostly in Orlando and Las Vegas. For most people it is in and out mostly. With Vegas it's a bit easier to get to other spots and Orlando it's a bit harder except for nearby chains.

 

I think Cincy can be unique but for sure they got to get the district right. Hotel is key, as is the surrounding development and connecting it FS and the Banks. That whole area is walkable basically what you get with LV except in LV a lot of it is in malls and indoor in the vicinity, but you basically walk more than you could around Cincinnati.

 

Then, how does this blend into the rest of the downtown area as best as possible? I've only been to Duke twice for Beerfest lol but it always sucked leaving trying to find a place to go afterwards, dark and dingy in that area.

 

Basically for me, upgrade that whole area which is what they are trying to do and they will better be able to activate the convention center with the needed upgrades. It's not like Cincy is going to start beating out LV or Orlando for huge conventions anyways, be the best in your wheelhouse and I feel good about what we are doing here for the next 10+ years.