Yeah, i'll believe it when I see it. Just like the high rise hotel announced on the McMillan and Vine site, this doesn't really pass the smell test for me.

 

It's happening, it just takes time...

Portune: ‘We are going to expand the Duke Energy Convention Center’

Mar 15, 2017, 6:37am EDT

Tom Demeropolis

Senior Staff Reporter

Cincinnati Business Courier

 

Hamilton County Commission President Todd Portune is throwing his support behind the effort to expand the Duke Energy Convention Center and get a first-class headquarters hotel in downtown Cincinnati.

 

“We leave this room with a firm commitment to one another that we are going to expand the Duke Energy Convention Center and build a first-class headquarters hotel,” Portune said during the Cincinnati USA Convention and Visitors Bureau annual meeting.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/03/15/portune-we-are-going-to-expand-the-duke-energy.html

The city making a move to improve the area around the the convention center, maybe... Buildings from the 80s are nearly as dreadful as the music from the 80s

City battles blight at front door of Duke Energy Convention Center

 

Convention Place Mall is an office and retail complex built on city-owned land at 435 Elm Street by developer Harvey Cohen in 1983.

 

The city of Cincinnati shut down a section of the Downtown skywalk near Duke Energy Convention Center this month after inspectors found “deteriorated steel” in the metal platform leading to Convention Place Mall.

 

It’s the latest in a series of legal skirmishes that could lead to an eviction, foreclosure or bankruptcy filing by two companies that control the office building and retail center across from the convention center’s main entrance at Fifth and Elm streets.

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/insider/city-battles-blight-at-front-door-of-duke-energy-convention-center

^Chip Hart is quoted in this article. Then I remembered he wrote an op-ed in the Enquirer about how the Convention Center DOES NOT need to be expanded in an article about the arena. Hart is owner of Hart Productions who hold tons of shows there.

 

Hotel tax ideal funding source for arena renovation

 

"...For many reasons, there is no need for an expansion of the convention center. First, there is no room downtown for any measurable expansion that would enable DECC to compete even with Columbus or Indianapolis. There is a glut of buildings nationwide that will not likely be filled anytime in our lifetime.

 

There also is a complete lack of post-convention and trade show economic impact studies of those events held in Cincinnati that would justify any further expansion. They just don’t exist. Every study (if you want to call them that) available is purely speculative and based completely on projections of attendance, individual spending using homogenized national spending models, and projected length of stay for every delegate.

 

The last two expansions of our convention center were based on projections and speculation. Convention and trade show economic impacts are not mentioned anymore, rather projected hotel room nights are used in their place...

 

...Our company has used the convention center since 1967 and has always been the single-largest user. We’ve paid millions of dollars in rent over the past 60 years. We’ve put millions of people through the doors of the DECC. Our shows have generated real quantifiable billions in economic impact with high-profile consumer trade shows.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/contributors/2017/07/21/hotel-tax-ideal-funding-source-arena-renovation/491095001/

Sounds like 3CDC wants to build a new hotel on the parking lot south of the convention center. Probably bad news for the Millennium Hotel.

 

3CDC, GCRA to acquire parking lot near Duke Energy Convention Center

 

“What it really is, the best use of the site, it’s a great convention center hotel site,” Leeper said. “A real convention center hotel is going to be critical to our convention center business.”

 

Leeper said 3CDC has already started discussions with potential hotel developers for the property.

Sounds like 3CDC wants to build a new hotel on the parking lot south of the convention center. Probably bad news for the Millennium Hotel.

 

3CDC, GCRA to acquire parking lot near Duke Energy Convention Center

 

 

 

“What it really is, the best use of the site, it’s a great convention center hotel site,” Leeper said. “A real convention center hotel is going to be critical to our convention center business.”

 

Leeper said 3CDC has already started discussions with potential hotel developers for the property.

 

There has been conversations for a couple months with hotel operators, and working on securing a brand flag locally. When you look at the grand scheme of things downtown you think what major hotel brands don't exist downtown that could work as a convention hotel...

 

Loews Hotel

Intercontinental - IHG has very little presence in Cincinnati, only the two Holiday Inns in the basin.

Sheraton - Seems like a stretch with the Westin, Renaissance both downtown and now being the same Marriott corporate brands

JW Marriott - Same as above

Omni Hotels - Just built a massive property in Louisville

If the owners of the Millennium won't update it then the city needs to take it over somehow.  That place is disgusting and it's a joke that it's our biggest hotel downtown/connected to the convention center. 

If the owners of the Millennium won't update it then the city needs to take it over somehow.  That place is disgusting and it's a joke that it's our biggest hotel downtown/connected to the convention center. 

 

No the city/3CDC/Port Authority just build a new hotel, the owners of the Millennium will lose status as convention hotel and take the skywalk down that connects the two, they have had years to upgrade and choose not to do so. Time to cut them off.

^ Agreed. A new convention center hotel is desperately needed, and the Millennium ownership has shown that they are not interested in keeping up their property, so it's past time to move on. I think it would be ideal if the convention center itself could be expanded across the street, and have the hotel either built on top, or on the 4th street side of the lot. I know the city misses out on a lot of conventions because the facility is simply too small. A modest expansion, coupled with new meeting space in the hotel itself, could create enough new space to land some of the larger conventions.  But even if the convention center doesn't expand, having a new, modern convention hotel will help the city a lot. I just hope we can get a building with some height on that lot. Probably a bit of a long shot, but a 25-30 story building there would be great for the skyline.

^it maybe an “unconventional” set-up but I am wondering if the Fort Washington Way caps could be built out and used as auxiliary convention space? I’m thinking it doesn’t make financial sense to put ordinary development on the caps when we have so much other space for infill downtown. If they were some kind of flex/open hall space we could use them to really expand Oktoberfest as well.

^ You know, that's an interesting idea. My first reaction was to say no, as convention center space usually has to be contiguous. I still think that could be an issue for true convention business, but I could see some flex/convention space being used for a number of purposes. The trick would be designing the structure so it doesn't look like a big box, as that could serve as another mental barrier between the cbd and the banks. But if you could have a Columbus cap type of situation, where a restaurant fronts the street, you could perhaps tuck in the meeting space behind? Idk how this would all look or work together, but it does seem like an interesting idea for the caps. 

Isn't floor PSI limited on the cap? Could be trouble for forklifts.

I suspect that they're going to try to put the Millennium out of business with a new hotel so that they can buy the property for cheap and then expand the convention center over Elm St. and onto the Millennium property. 

 

Several years ago Michael Moore told me that they had done drawings for taking Elm St. into a dip under an expanded center. 

^ That is my bet as well.

Those drawings were posted somewhere here at some point and they're awful. Expanding across Elm is a street life killer. The convention center already sucks the life out of that part of town, that would just make it worse, unless they do something creative with the uses along the ground floor. Even so, bridging a building over a street is an awful idea and creates a terrible environment for pedestrians.

 

I really hope the Millennium isn't torn down, but is rather redeveloped into residential. Despite being horrible, they are a big part of that portion of the skyline and replacing them with a horizontally sprawling building would be disappointing in my mind. Maybe both can happen somehow...

 

I know the Mallory administration was in talks for a duel tower proposal on this lot until that fell apart and that money was used for other public/private projects. If I recall the details correctly it was something like one 35 story tower with provisions for a future 25 story tower. Though my skyline balance desires would love a Queen City Square sized building over there to expand the skyline horizontally, I think a duel tower scenario would do a lot to improve street life and impact the skyline in a nice way.

I already dislike how the current convention center breaks up Plum.  I would hate it spanning Elm as well. 

If you are going to expand over a city block, I would try and go North over 6th street and take up that block of garages and parking lots. That is a dead area of downtown anyway so you do not lose anything if you expand that direction.

^Yeah. You could easily expand that way with minimal impact. Pedestrian traffic is never going to be great over there since there aren't exactly a ton of people crossing over to plum at that point. You could also tear down some VERY dated garages, replace with convention space and integrate street facing retail and some sort of residential tower above along Elm to really integrate the expansion into the street and mostly benefit that side of Downtown at the sacrifice of a street that will likely never be lively anyway. Elm has the ability to be lively with some effort and expanding over it would kill that.

Or if the Brent Spence Bridge project actually moves forward, they can expand west over Central Avenue as they have wanted to do for many years. There's a big grassy lot sitting there waiting for them in this rendering.

That image gives me anxiety...

Agreed, that still just looks like a giant spaghetti mess.  Woof

I don't think you could get it to look much better than that unless you start removing access points or putting sections underground.  Speaking of that rendering, I thought the reason cited for demolishing the old Dunnhumby building was that the space was needed for the Brent Spence bridge project.  I guess that onramp to the north of the building could be brought in slightly closer, but it's still a shame they felt it needed to be demolished.

^they should remove access points and put sections underground.

^they should remove access points and put sections underground.

 

What access points could be removed?  We're dealing with three bridges plus Rt. 50.  It would be a traffic nightmare to have everything funneled into/from 2nd and 3rd streets.  As far as putting sections underground, there wouldn't be a noticeable benefit unless all sections were put underground.  That part of downtown is never going to have a lot of activity unless you're able to hide all of the ramps. 

I'm guilty of starting this tangent, but please keep deeper discussions about the spaghetti junction in the Brent Spence Bridge thread. Thanks!

Thinking about the site, with the awful convention place development. Correct me if I am wrong but didnt Chinedum Ndukwe buy this building for future development? I mean with the parking lot and the prime corner spot of Fifth and Elm there could really be a great convention center hotel built, with another 3CDC apartment tower.

The whole convention center expansion talk is just ridiculous to me.  Cincinnati's not going to compete for top conventions, ever, even if we had a giant convention center and new convention hotel or two AND a bunch of strip clubs.  We've got a casino now and nobody cares. 

 

 

It's similar to the US Bank Arena argument. Cincinnati is always going to struggle with these sorts of things when you have these massive convention and arena facilities in two different state capitals two hours away. The best bet would be to accept this fact and focus on attracting niche talent and conventions to keep the current facility programmed more often, but that'll bruise a lot of peoples' egos.

^ Why do you think that? I admit I'm not all that knowledgeable about conventions, as I just recently attended my first real, big convention- the American Planning Association in New Orleans. Other than the lack of meeting space, and possible lack of hotel rooms, what would keep Cincy from hosting such an event? Do you think it's just not seen as a desirable enough location to entice people to come? I know the APA organizers said that New Orleans has historically been their best attended conference, because people want an excuse to visit. The set up of having a big, basically intact historic neighborhood right next to the CBD is very similar to what New Orleans has with the French Quarter and their CBD. I know New Orleans has a whole history of tourism that we don't have, but the revival of OTR could really put Cincy on the map for tourism, I think. The impact of having thousands of planners in town, walking around exploring the neighborhoods, eating at restaurants, going out to the bars and what not no doubt had a big impact on the NO economy for those 4-5 days. The conference also gave me a reason to go to New Orleans, which I had never been to before, and (shamefully) had little interest in going to previously. Now I'm a huge fan of the place, and I can't wait to go back. Cincinnati would benefit immensely from that type of exposure, and conventions are one vehicle to achieve it.

The whole convention center expansion talk is just ridiculous to me.  Cincinnati's not going to compete for top conventions, ever, even if we had a giant convention center and new convention hotel or two AND a bunch of strip clubs.  We've got a casino now and nobody cares. 

 

 

 

 

 

Jake, if Indy and Columbus had that mindset, they would never land the convention traffic they have had over the last 30 years. Those cities don't offer half of what Cincy has to offer yet they succeed in bringing in higher scale events on a more frequent basis.

 

 

 

I wonder how much of the economic benefit of conventions actually goes to the City, though. The City doesn't benefit from the hotel & rental car taxes or the sales tax on the additional restaurant and bar spending. Most of the rental car taxes go to Kentucky, and hotel/sales tax goes to Hamilton County.

Yeah I just don't think that getting an NBA, NHL, or soccer(!) team, or a big convention business, is something that is going to help this city gain notoriety and create a climate where business retention and the attraction of talent is an issue.  It's not a chicken or egg question.  The reputation can come before the reality.  Nashville is the perfect example of that -- a totally nondescript city that is still significantly smaller than Cincinnati but with a positive national reputation. 

The whole convention center expansion talk is just ridiculous to me.  Cincinnati's not going to compete for top conventions, ever, even if we had a giant convention center and new convention hotel or two AND a bunch of strip clubs.  We've got a casino now and nobody cares. 

 

 

 

 

 

Jake, if Indy and Columbus had that mindset, they would never land the convention traffic they have had over the last 30 years. Those cities don't offer half of what Cincy has to offer yet they succeed in bringing in higher scale events on a more frequent basis.

 

 

 

 

 

Indianapolis is still, despite it all, a very underwhelming place.  The comeback of Columbus's in-town neighborhoods has been the doing of residents, not visitors.  Indianapolis hasn't enjoyed the same revival of nearby neighborhoods. 

 

I remain unconvinced that conventions can be a significant economic driver for any but the very, very biggest convention cities like Las Vegas.  Nearly all of the money a convention brings in flows through the low-paying service industry.  Hotels.  Restaurants.  Strip clubs.  Casinos.

 

 

 

 

Yeah I just don't think that getting an NBA, NHL, or soccer(!) team, or a big convention business, is something that is going to help this city gain notoriety and create a climate where business retention and the attraction of talent is an issue.  It's not a chicken or egg question.  The reputation can come before the reality.  Nashville is the perfect example of that -- a totally nondescript city that is still significantly smaller than Cincinnati but with a positive national reputation. 

 

Cincinnatians need to hire the most qualified people, not just some guy because he went to the same 3000-student high school 17 years apart from them. That would attract more outsiders. Columbus doesn't do that... hell if you ask someone what high school they want to in Columbus you probably haven't heard of it. Guy 1: "So what high school did you go to?" Guy 2: "Northwest Local" Guy 1: "Never hear of it! I went to Dublin Scioto" Guy 2:"Never heard of it!"

Yeah I just don't think that getting an NBA, NHL, or soccer(!) team, or a big convention business, is something that is going to help this city gain notoriety and create a climate where business retention and the attraction of talent is an issue.  It's not a chicken or egg question.  The reputation can come before the reality.  Nashville is the perfect example of that -- a totally nondescript city that is still significantly smaller than Cincinnati but with a positive national reputation. 

 

What those do, especially with conventions more than sports teams is spur additional and new business and it brings capital into an area. With conventions, the money spent is new money that enriches the area because people earn it somewhere else and spend it in Cincy. It increases the area's overall wealth. That is the big benefit of conventions. With the Reds or Bengals or FC, the majority of money spent is local and does not increase the overall wealth of the region.

 

Yeah I just don't think that getting an NBA, NHL, or soccer(!) team, or a big convention business, is something that is going to help this city gain notoriety and create a climate where business retention and the attraction of talent is an issue.  It's not a chicken or egg question.  The reputation can come before the reality.  Nashville is the perfect example of that -- a totally nondescript city that is still significantly smaller than Cincinnati but with a positive national reputation. 

 

Cincinnatians need to hire the most qualified people, not just some guy because he went to the same 3000-student high school 17 years apart from them. That would attract more outsiders. Columbus doesn't do that... hell if you ask someone what high school they want to in Columbus you probably haven't heard of it. Guy 1: "So what high school did you go to?" Guy 2: "Northwest Local" Guy 1: "Never hear of it! I went to Dublin Scioto" Guy 2:"Never heard of it!"

 

I would not say that is the most accurate statement. Yes, Cincnnatians are parochial and love their hometown, but Columbus benefits a lot from people coming from other parts of Ohio not so much Chicago or the coasts, etc. As NE Ohio has struggled, many people have pushed south to Columbus.  If you look at the top companies in the region, they are hiring the top talent. P&G, Kroger, 5/3, GE; these companies all recruit nationally and hire the top talent available. Same with the law firms in town. It is really no different than any other big city. In fact, most of the leaders of businesses in town are not native Cincinnatians.

Right, the F500s in town aren't like that but they get flooded with applicants since everybody knows who they are.

The whole convention center expansion talk is just ridiculous to me.  Cincinnati's not going to compete for top conventions, ever, even if we had a giant convention center and new convention hotel or two AND a bunch of strip clubs.  We've got a casino now and nobody cares. 

 

 

 

 

 

Jake, if Indy and Columbus had that mindset, they would never land the convention traffic they have had over the last 30 years. Those cities don't offer half of what Cincy has to offer yet they succeed in bringing in higher scale events on a more frequent basis.

 

 

 

Exactly.  Simply accepting we won't ever get any big conventions and never expanding the center will greatly hurt our city in the long run.  The convention center helps support the hotel and restaurant business downtown with all the visitors they bring to the city.  Some of those visitors may even come back on their own dime once they get here and see we have a great city.  We already have conventions that are outgrowing our space so we have tows options:  Stay as is and lose more and more events, or we could make our center bigger and try to attract events that wouldn't come here now.  You have to invest in your city if you want to make it better and letting our undersized convention center stay as is would do nothing to help. 

 

Btw in 2017 the casino had 2.5 million visitors and brought in $198 million in adjusted gross gaming revenue.  Obviously quite a few people seem to care about it, and quite a few people care about the conventions that come here as well.

^ and also remember that 100% of the money spent by conventioneers is out of down money that builds the wealth of a region instead of money that is recirculated in town.

Btw in 2017 the casino had 2.5 million visitors and brought in $198 million in adjusted gross gaming revenue.  Obviously quite a few people seem to care about it, and quite a few people care about the conventions that come here as well.

 

$198 million is chump change.  My employer does $110 million and nobody's heard of the place.  All of those no-name warehouses from Tri-County Mall up to Hamilton along Port Union Rd., etc., all do huge business and nobody has heard of any of them.  They sell to all over the world. 

 

Tourism business that employs 1,000 people is basically the same as a single Amazon warehouse that employs 1,000 people.  50 decent-paying management jobs, then 950 people making $11.50/hr with few or zero benefits.  The tourism money comes in from around the world, but so does the money that employs those Amazon elves. 

 

 

Btw in 2017 the casino had 2.5 million visitors and brought in $198 million in adjusted gross gaming revenue.  Obviously quite a few people seem to care about it, and quite a few people care about the conventions that come here as well.

 

$198 million is chump change.  My employer does $110 million and nobody's heard of the place.  All of those no-name warehouses from Tri-County Mall up to Hamilton along Port Union Rd., etc., all do huge business and nobody has heard of any of them.  They sell to all over the world. 

 

Tourism business that employs 1,000 people is basically the same as a single Amazon warehouse that employs 1,000 people.  50 decent-paying management jobs, then 950 people making $11.50/hr with few or zero benefits.  The tourism money comes in from around the world, but so does the money that employs those Amazon elves. 

 

 

 

You said no one cares about the casino, you didn't ask about how it compared to other businesses in the city.  Congrats on moving the goalposts. 

Btw in 2017 the casino had 2.5 million visitors and brought in $198 million in adjusted gross gaming revenue.  Obviously quite a few people seem to care about it, and quite a few people care about the conventions that come here as well.

 

$198 million is chump change.  My employer does $110 million and nobody's heard of the place.  All of those no-name warehouses from Tri-County Mall up to Hamilton along Port Union Rd., etc., all do huge business and nobody has heard of any of them.  They sell to all over the world. 

 

Tourism business that employs 1,000 people is basically the same as a single Amazon warehouse that employs 1,000 people.  50 decent-paying management jobs, then 950 people making $11.50/hr with few or zero benefits.  The tourism money comes in from around the world, but so does the money that employs those Amazon elves. 

 

 

 

You said no one cares about the casino, you didn't ask about how it compared to other businesses in the city.  Congrats on moving the goalposts. 

 

 

Our convention center, casino, and hospitality industry is a very minor part of the local economy.  If it doubled statistically, no citizen would notice.  They would still think it should double, even though it just doubled.  It's like how violent crime has gone down 50% since 1990 but everyone thinks "crime is getting worse". 

 

New Orleans has much, much more tourism than Cincinnati.  But delete all of the shipping and oil rig related jobs that we don't have in addition to those tourism jobs and there isn't much going on there.  All of the tourism has quite clearly NOT led to New Orleans landing Fortune 500 HQ's, small business growth, a tech industry, etc. 

 

Conventions/tourism do NOT automatically lead to a broad economic prosperity.  What major employers has Las Vegas landed?  Probably more than New Orleans, but its real economy is still a blip compared to what Cincinnati has. 

 

Columbus does way more convention and trade show business than Cincinnati yet lots of people still hate us

I think that the reason midwestern cities like Indy, Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, (with Indy and Columbus being more successful than the latter two) put so much effort into conventions is for marketing purposes rather than pure economic impact. Our region has lost much cachet to places with warmer weather. Add to that bad connotations that Ohio or Indiana brings. Cornfields etc, or mistake on the lake for Cleveland.

 

And I think the idea is, let's try to attract some people here and show them a halfway decent and interesting place, and maybe over time those reputations can start to change, which could pay dividends in the long, long term.

I wonder how much the Midwest's reputation would change over time if all cars were galvanized (like Porches have been for 40+ years) so that they don't rust. People come here and immediately see our terrible cars and see that there aren't any ones over 15 years left that aren't destroyed. In California there's lots of original cars from the '60s out on the roads every day.

Columbus does way more convention and trade show business than Cincinnati yet lots of people still hate us

 

I'm not sure who "us" is. I think many resent Columbus rather than hating it.

That is comparing apples to oranges. Does P&G locate here because of convention business or does Gen Mills go to Minneapolis because of the same convention business. Of course not. They go to where local talent is. They go to where there is a concentration in that industry.

 

But convention business helps attract secondary jobs and business. It offers employment to a trailing spouse or an opportunity to continue to develop a passion business like a café or art studio. It builds quality of life which in turn continues to attract talent.

 

NOLA and Vegas are much bigger tourism markets. But so are Minneapolis and Indy.  I would not call these towns anything exciting from a tourist standpoint. Heck, Minneapolis is only really inhabitable 3 months out of the year, yet people make a go there. I don't think people expect Cincy to play in the same field as NOLA or Vegas but they certainly should be in the game every time with Columbus, Nashville, Indy, Cleveland, Minneapolis, Charlotte and even Chicago.

I think that the reason midwestern cities like Indy, Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, (with Indy and Columbus being more successful than the latter two) put so much effort into conventions is for marketing purposes rather than pure economic impact. Our region has lost much cachet to places with warmer weather. Add to that bad connotations that Ohio or Indiana brings. Cornfields etc, or mistake on the lake for Cleveland.

 

And I think the idea is, let's try to attract some people here and show them a halfway decent and interesting place, and maybe over time those reputations can start to change, which could pay dividends in the long, long term.

 

The average person just sees what they want to see when they go places for work or pleasure, unfortunately. There are heroin needles and piles of garbage all over San Francisco, but it hasn't put a huge dent in tourism there. But if someone bumped into an aggressive panhandler in Cleveland, it would probably confirm their bias about Cleveland being a terrible place. I'd agree that things could eventually change in the long, long term, but I don't know if playing that long of a game is the most effective use of public funds.

I don't know if playing that long of a game is the most effective use of public funds.

 

Well, the convention business brings actual new dollars into the local economy, so that's probably the justification for it on that end.

The average person just sees what they want to see when they go places for work or pleasure, unfortunately. There are heroin needles and piles of garbage all over San Francisco, but it hasn't put a huge dent in tourism there. But if someone bumped into an aggressive panhandler in Cleveland, it would probably confirm their bias about Cleveland being a terrible place.

 

People judge different places by contradictory criteria.  They will go by what someone else says even when their own observations say otherwise.  They generally prefer imitations to the "real thing", and readily part with their money when fooled by fake authenticity. 

 

Hemingway's description of Paris in "The Wild Years" (a collection of feature articles he wrote for the Toronto Star in the 1920s before he became a novelist https://www.amazon.com/wild-years-Ernest-Hemingway/dp/B00005XYWC) are hilarious.  His eyes roll as he describes how American tourists sought out "Paris" and how enterprising Frenchmen were willing to create that for them.  At length he describes the phony artist cafes that attracted the Americans like moths while the actual artists/writers, etc., congregated in other neighborhoods. 

 

The same crap continues, 100 years later.  Travel is still a fool's paradise. 

 

Tourist itineraries don't include bars on West Sides that still let people smoke in them