5 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

This is only going to be an incremental increase in the size of the center.  It's still going to be hosting youth gymnastics meets and cheer competitions every other weekend.  

 

 

 

I'm not sure what realistic solution you are proposing in that case?

Just now, troeros said:

 

I'm not sure what realistic solution you are proposing in that case?

 

I'm not sure that there is a problem with the current center, as-is.  Has the average citizen of Nashville benefited from their new convention center?  No.  Locals don't go to many conventions, and work at convention centers tends to be low-wage.  

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

6th street is a perfect example. You have the convention center on one side and parking garage on other and skywalks over top. There is never a need to walk down that street because you would only be there to go to a parking garage You would never have a walk up store that could make it because one side of the street is dead and the other is a parking garage.  Go to the 5th street side and you have a similar thing. The business or buildings that are there struggle because there is no activity on the other side of the street because of the hulking convention center takes the whole block. Your hope is that you get traffic from one side of the street only. It would work on 5th street side some, because of more of a critical mass of residents and businesses, but not on the 6th street side. There you have a couple garages, going North you have the Pure Romance building which is essentially a fortress with no street presence, and you have the Cincinnati Bell Building which is also a Fortress with no street level presence. YOU have the Shillitoes garage which is a dump too and does not have much of a street presence.

 

If I were a developer trying to develop housing, retail, etc to the blocks from 6th and Elm West to 9th and Elm and West, what is the draw? You have church at the end of Piatt park acting as a barrier for people from going further West as well. So you are left with City Hall and a bunch of parking on that quadrant. If you cut it off with the bigger convention center over Elm, it only exacerbates this problem.  Then, how do you connect it to the rest of the city? there needs to be something to tie that area back to the city and downtown.

 

The draw is your a few min walk to the Koger Court St District, Music Hall Washington Park/ FCC West End Stadium less than a 8 min walk to the new Hard Rock Casino...It shouldn't really be a hard sell for anyone living in that "quadrant" because our downtown has developed so much as of late. There is so much to see and do besides "the river" or fountain square. 

To bad we cant sink the whole thing below grade and have it open to the west with an allglass wall. Streets would be continued and the air rights could further the rent by constructing mixed use residential and offices and retail on top. Any way they could sink just the new part below grade, or is it all about the space being on one continuous level?

2 hours ago, troeros said:

 

The draw is your a few min walk to the Koger Court St District, Music Hall Washington Park/ FCC West End Stadium less than a 8 min walk to the new Hard Rock Casino...It shouldn't really be a hard sell for anyone living in that "quadrant" because our downtown has developed so much as of late. There is so much to see and do besides "the river" or fountain square. 

If the convention center does expand then there will have to be changes. If you don't change traffic patterns or loose a historic building,  then the only way to expand is up. A covered walk across 6th, Elm, or 5th may sound wrong but it may be the only answer. It could be that they become wind tunnels, but I've walked the Pogue garage many many times and never remember a wind tunnel. Many people are so attached to their cars that they drive until they find a "good" parking space. There is nothing wrong with walking. Anywhere is Europe you will find many people walking. Pasaggiatia (?)  And, there are lots of walkers in NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philly, DC. I see many people on the weekends walking all around the convention center. My guess is its starts on Thursday with the trucks and companies putting up the shows and on the weekends its full of people. And add Monday for stuff to be taken down. That leaves two days of no foot traffic. Viewed that way the convention area seems very busy. Cincinnati has plenty of attractions. I think the real problem is just a lack of interested people. Until suburbanites give up weekend sports, Cinema-plexes, shopping malls, and move closer to downtown there will be a need for more people. I think one of the major reasons there is a lack of people on the streets downtown, is because of the hills that surround the valley. Instead of expensive high-rises people can have beautiful views of the city center and still live in a house. 

6 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

I'm not sure that there is a problem with the current center, as-is.  Has the average citizen of Nashville benefited from their new convention center?  No.  Locals don't go to many conventions, and work at convention centers tends to be low-wage.  

 

Jake has a point. What if expanding convention centers were a waste of taxpayer money?

 

https://www.governing.com/blogs/bfc/col-convention-center-promised-benefits-rarely-materialize.html?AMP

 

http://tcbmag.com/news/articles/2017/july/what-s-the-roi-of-a-convention-center-event

 

https://www.citylab.com/solutions/2012/06/stop-building-convention-centers/2210/

 

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/20050117_conventioncenters.pdf

Fact is, statewide shows are always going to prefer Columbus; at least ones that don't make it a point to rotate.

30 minutes ago, JYP said:

 

Jake has a point. What if expanding convention centers were a waste of taxpayer money?

 

https://www.governing.com/blogs/bfc/col-convention-center-promised-benefits-rarely-materialize.html?AMP

 

http://tcbmag.com/news/articles/2017/july/what-s-the-roi-of-a-convention-center-event

 

https://www.citylab.com/solutions/2012/06/stop-building-convention-centers/2210/

 

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/20050117_conventioncenters.pdf

 

 

The original and most important reason for this project is now getting lost on this forum. This project was and is about THE HOTEL. The only reason why they are now trying to incorporate a convention center expansion is because it’s the most practical direction to expand. It’s obvious government officials now want to do a sort of “2 in 1” project which is smart. Much smarter than a crazy and expensive westward expansion over an express way or the idea of building a whole new convention center somewhere outside of downtown which is laughable. 

18 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Fact is, statewide shows are always going to prefer Columbus; at least ones that don't make it a point to rotate.

 

Statewide shows? I don’t think that’s the aim of this expansion.

Some people might not know that. That's why I wanted to keep expectations realistic by mentioning it.

1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

Fact is, statewide shows are always going to prefer Columbus; at least ones that don't make it a point to rotate.

State conventions are not going to Columbus, they go to Kallahari.

 

In all seriousness, not many state organizations are going to draw enough people to fill a convention center the size of Cincy, Cleve or Columbus. Many of them go to the smaller centers in Dayton, Toledo, Sharonville. Some will go to Columbus because the state agency is there.

Your post reveals that you don't know what a state show actually is. They don't consist of shows put on by state agencies but rather ones by state associations which are private entities.

3 hours ago, 646empire said:

 

 

The original and most important reason for this project is now getting lost on this forum. This project was and is about THE HOTEL. The only reason why they are now trying to incorporate a convention center expansion is because it’s the most practical direction to expand. It’s obvious government officials now want to do a sort of “2 in 1” project which is smart. Much smarter than a crazy and expensive westward expansion over an express way or the idea of building a whole new convention center somewhere outside of downtown which is laughable. 

 

You have a point that is widely being ignored.

 

Our convention center is a pile of utter crap. The millennium looks ugly and outdated as hell. It's bug bed infested and smells like mold and cigarettes. The fact that Dayton has a better Convention Hotel says everything about how bad the Millennium is, and how badly it needs a replacement. 

 

 

8 hours ago, troeros said:

 

You have a point that is widely being ignored.

 

Our convention center is a pile of utter crap. The millennium looks ugly and outdated as hell. It's bug bed infested and smells like mold and cigarettes. The fact that Dayton has a better Convention Hotel says everything about how bad the Millennium is, and how badly it needs a replacement. 

 

 

 

Millennium is in rough shape yes, but its not worse than the Crowne Plaza in Dayton. The Crowne Plaza is really old building with a ton of issues, it just has a veneer of lipstick on the interior at the moment. 

5 minutes ago, savadams13 said:

 

Millennium is in rough shape yes, but its not worse than the Crowne Plaza in Dayton. The Crowne Plaza is really old building with a ton of issues, it just has a veneer of lipstick on the interior at the moment. 

 

I stayed there 2 years ago for my gf dance competition and didn't have a problem with the Crowne Plaza.

 

Last time I stayed at millennium our non smoking room reeked of cigarettes, like embedded in the furniture...large patches of mold in the bathroom ceiling, seriously out dated rooms, and stains in the bed sheets that we discovered when we shined our flash light underneath. 

 

It's just a really crappy place and I'm glad to see it go. 

 

 

34 minutes ago, savadams13 said:

 

Millennium is in rough shape yes, but its not worse than the Crowne Plaza in Dayton. The Crowne Plaza is really old building with a ton of issues, it just has a veneer of lipstick on the interior at the moment. 

 

They are both old Stouffer hotels.  Crowne Plaza's interior is certainly "better" than the Millennium but both are out-dated properties.

Removing Elm street should really be a non-starter. Central Ave was already partially removed for FC's new stadium, Plum was removed decades ago leaving Elm as the only northbound continuous road to get people from downtown up to OTR/Northern Liberties. All of the traffic coming off I-75/US50 off the 5th street exit will be funneled to Fountain Square and Vine street if this were to happen, and Vine street is already very congested between 4th and 7th. 

The willingness of our current city leaders to remove sections of streets in their attempt to chase the Next Big Development Of The Moment shows how short-sighted they are. It's like they learned no lessons from the urban renewal era and have no understanding of what makes fine-grained urbanism more appealing than megablock developments. And yet we keep doing it over and over again, mutilating our street grid whenever a developer asks us to.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/24/county-considers-whether-to-pony-up-1-3-million-in.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

 

Looks like they have a Friday deadline

This sounds like a classic hurry-up developer scam:

Quote

Commissioners now face a question: Do they put up the $1.3 million in hotel tax money and risk losing it and sustaining a black eye with the public if the due diligence shows fatal problems with Smyjunas’ proposed deal? If they don’t, they could lose a rare opportunity for local governments to revitalize a stagnating part of downtown.

 

Don't do it.  Don't fall for the trap.  

15 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

This sounds like a classic hurry-up developer scam:

 

Don't do it.  Don't fall for the trap.  

I disagree on this. 2 key reasons.

1) You get control of the site. even if the deal to redevelop the center into the new convention center falls through, you can still buy the hotel and control that block. You would have control of it, you can keep it open under a management agreement, tear it down, sell it to a better operator, etc. Getting that control would be powerful given the current frustration the city has with the Millennium operator.

2) The Port Authority is going to be the owner so if the Smyjunas plan does not work, the Port still owns the property and can figure out a plan B at that point. Right now the goal is to get control.

 

There may be debate about going over Elm Street with an expansion or doing something else. That wont change with the sale of this hotel. At the end of the day, the County will now have control of the property instead of the hotel company which will make it much easier for development down the line in whatever form it looks like. Control the asset, you have a lot of options with it at that point.

Either way it's a hell of a risk and if the commissioners do it, they better hope it pays off. 

Edited September 25, 20195 yr by cincydave8

If they do it, they will get lambasted in 2020 over their lack of fiscal responsibility... then again, they will get lambasted anyway

 

I honestly have no clue how to come down on this issue.  On one hand, what the seller is doing is annoying and ticks me off, on the other, it is a big opportunity.

50 minutes ago, cincydave8 said:

Either way it's a hell of a risk and if the commissioners do it, they better hope it pays off. 

Absolutely, but this is a chance to show true leadership. It is easy to say no.

 

I think Portune obviously wants to move forward. I think his experience in these types of issues gives him the reason why

 

Dreihaus is on the fence. She will likely side with Portune, but her West Side sensibilities probably give her pause, plus if it blows up it will not play well with voters.

 

Dumas, wants to delay because she is in over her head on these matters.

when its all said and done, the city will settle for an Artistry (6 story apartment complex).

 

 

22 minutes ago, RJohnson said:

when its all said and done, the city will settle for an Artistry (6 story apartment complex).

 

 

 

Kind of hard to settle for an Artistery when the whole reason this is being pushed hard in the first place is because Cincinnati badly needs an updated Convention Center Hotel.

57 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

If they do it, they will get lambasted in 2020 over their lack of fiscal responsibility... then again, they will get lambasted anyway

 

I honestly have no clue how to come down on this issue.  On one hand, what the seller is doing is annoying and ticks me off, on the other, it is a big opportunity.

Yet our city council is going to pay almost $600k to unnecessarily restructure the streetcar.  Give me a break on fiscal responsibility,  this is the first chance the county has gotten in decades to get control of the pile of garbage that is the Millennium.  If they don't jump on this now we'll end up like St. Louis with an empty and decrepit Millennium.  So we'd then have two empty hotels rotting away on prime downtown blocks.  

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/26/hamilton-county-steps-up-on-millennium-hotel-deal.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

County Steps up and allows for Hilton Signia and Convention Center Expansion to move forward!

15 minutes ago, troeros said:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/26/hamilton-county-steps-up-on-millennium-hotel-deal.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

County Steps up and allows for Hilton Signia and Convention Center Expansion to move forward!

 

Thank God. They need to get going on this ASAP. 

17 minutes ago, 646empire said:

 

Thank God. They need to get going on this ASAP. 

 

Agreed. The convention center needs to be expanded and our current convention center hotel sucks plain and simple. We can debate all day if this the right way to expand the convention center but this opportunity to redevelop both the convention center and convention hotel are now. We might not have another chance after this. 

 

Btw when can we retitle the thread, Hotel Signia and Convention Center Expansion Development thread?

 

51 minutes ago, troeros said:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/26/hamilton-county-steps-up-on-millennium-hotel-deal.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

County Steps up and allows for Hilton Signia and Convention Center Expansion to move forward!

Surprise, Surprise, Stephanie Dumass votes against it and calls it the worst deal she has ever seen. She is completely over her head on this.

21 minutes ago, troeros said:

Btw when can we retitle the thread, Hotel Signia and Convention Center Expansion Development thread?

 

When it's actually a thing, then yes.  Until then, we'll keep this general thread.

On 9/23/2019 at 2:14 PM, jmecklenborg said:

 

This is only going to be an incremental increase in the size of the center.  It's still going to be hosting youth gymnastics meets and cheer competitions every other weekend.  

 

 

 

 

Don't forget Magic: The Gathering tournaments

5 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

 

 

Don't forget Magic: The Gathering tournaments

 

Two years ago, at Opryland, I stumbled on a clogging convention.  Clogging is big-time.  

I hate the idea of them blocking off Elm to expand the convention center.  Here is my idea.  Buy all the parking lots on Eggelston, Build a big new convention center there, under all the highway overpasses.  Then it is forced to be single story, just like they want.  The higways and ramps are never going away, and nothing else is likely to get built there.  It could stretch from 4th to Reedy.  Stick a new hotel tower on top of part of it, maybe say next to Columbia parkway.   I realize they would have to the close that little stub of 5th street and Sentinel Street, but since all that is on the other side is 471, I don't care as much about that.   Then it is also much closer to the Casino, which would probably be popular for some conventions.   Give the current convention center site to 3cdc, re-establish Plum, and let 3cdc re-invigorate the southwest quadrant of downtown.

 

I am sure you are probably not allowed to build directly under the highways, but hey, I can dream.

 

 

According to the Bus Courier article this morning the Port is exploring four options:

a 600-room hotel

a 600-room hotel with convention center expansion

an 800-room hotel with convention center expansion

a 1,000-room hotel with convention center expansion.

 

So at least they are leaving the window open for not messing up Elm Street. 

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/27/port-accepts-1-3m-for-millennium-hotel-purchase.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

3 hours ago, JoeHarmon said:

  Buy all the parking lots on Eggelston, Build a big new convention center there, under all the highway overpasses.  Then it is forced to be single story, just like they want.  The higways and ramps are never going away, and nothing else is likely to get built there.  It could stretch from 4th to Reedy.  Stick a new hotel tower on top of part of it, maybe say next to Columbia parkway.   I realize they would have to the close that little stub of 5th street and Sentinel Street, but since all that is on the other side is 471, I don't care as much about that.   Then it is also much closer to the Casino, which would probably be popular for some conventions.   

I had a very similar idea yesterday. Sometimes its better just say, this was a mistake and we need to just start over. And, if you really want to dream. take the convention center, the casino and a major new hotel then put them on the old hudephol site as the anchors for Queensgate. 

Thing is, the point of being one story is to have easy access and a big uninterrupted flat floor plate.  Building under highway bridges would lead to random columns in the space, which isn't a deal-breaker, but also there's a good 20' of elevation change between 4th and Reedy, so it can't really be single-story on the exterior, and that would complicate access for loading and people. 

22 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Surprise, Surprise, Stephanie Dumass votes against it and calls it the worst deal she has ever seen. She is completely over her head on this.

 

Of course you misspell her name on purpose because you have the maturity level of a 12 year old boy. 

 

Anyway, I 100% support the hotel redevelopment--but I have to admit she raised some valid concerns here. There's very little evidence that convention centers are the economic engine that they are commonly believed to be. I would think someone who is supposedly a fiscal conservative would be happy that she's raising the issues. 

 

Also, I didn't vote for Dumas in the primary and I probably still wouldn't vote for her in a Democratic primary, but she seems to have gotten the hang of the job after a shaky start. She brings a different perspective to the county and that's refreshing. 

19 minutes ago, jjakucyk said:

Thing is, the point of being one story is to have easy access and a big uninterrupted flat floor plate.  Building under highway bridges would lead to random columns in the space, which isn't a deal-breaker, but also there's a good 20' of elevation change between 4th and Reedy, so it can't really be single-story on the exterior, and that would complicate access for loading and people. 

 

And that's exactly why a pedestrian "tunnel" is also not going to be built through the building. The whole point of eating Elm Street would be to have more continuous space, so they're not going to allow any kind of interruptions like that.

9 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

And that's exactly why a pedestrian "tunnel" is also not going to be built through the building. The whole point of eating Race Street would be to have more continuous space, so they're not going to allow any kind of interruptions like that.

 

Elm* street not Race. Race is far busier than Elm.

^ Yeah that's what I meant--fixed my post.

52 minutes ago, RJohnson said:

I had a very similar idea yesterday. Sometimes its better just say, this was a mistake and we need to just start over

 

Forming a bistate joint convention agency with NKY would enable retention of the existing Duke Energy Center and then expansion of the existing NKY center onto the IRS site.  

 

 

Take a look at Kansas City- they were facing this same dilemma and decided to expand over the highway. For now, the Brent Spence uncertainty prevents expanding over 75, but if you take Kansas City as a model there's still a lot of options.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0956349,-94.5886676,3a,75y,27.27h,87.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srG5k-peZ9AcJQFcZ2TXVxQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

The ideal option is to connect the casino to a new convention center and arena. Between Eggelston and Liberty, along 71, there's plenty of room for continuous convention space. Conventions would be in walking distance of some of Cincinnati's best assets- OTR, Mt. Adams, the casino, etc. The whole development could even be built on top of a transit center with connections to a 71 light rail line, streetcars/BRT on Reading and Gilbert, and the subway. 

 

Of course, all of this is impossible for countless reasons, but it's fun to dream.

I just looked at KC on google earth and their blocks are only 300 feet wide, not 400 like ours.  So that convention center is a lot smaller than it looks. 

Its a possible solution. Hotel overlooks city, casino grows, one floor continuous, and lose only one street. 

On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 2:36 PM, DEPACincy said:

 

Of course you misspell her name on purpose because you have the maturity level of a 12 year old boy. 

 

Anyway, I 100% support the hotel redevelopment--but I have to admit she raised some valid concerns here. There's very little evidence that convention centers are the economic engine that they are commonly believed to be. I would think someone who is supposedly a fiscal conservative would be happy that she's raising the issues. 

 

Also, I didn't vote for Dumas in the primary and I probably still wouldn't vote for her in a Democratic primary, but she seems to have gotten the hang of the job after a shaky start. She brings a different perspective to the county and that's refreshing. 

I share your concern that the convention center is not the economic driver that some claim it is. However, it does not underscore the fact that she is in over her head on this deal. Stating we need to wait to do a thorough property inspection on the building and determine the condition of the roof and systems shows she does not know anything about the deal,  has no clue about this type of financing and development in general.  It is a tear down, you don't need to do that.

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 2:44 PM, RJohnson said:

Its a possible solution. Hotel overlooks city, casino grows, one floor continuous, and lose only one street. 

While I think this would be a great option for the convention center, I have a feeling that it would be a challenge to turn over the convention business to a private casino who may not align with the rest of the hotel industry in the city.

^Not to mention the distance to the majority of the hotels on the 5th street corridor.

On 9/28/2019 at 9:59 AM, carnevalem said:

For now, the Brent Spence uncertainty prevents expanding over 75

It would be nice if preparing the highway spaghetti to be built over (or under, if necessary) were a part of the Brent Spence project.