Here we go....

 

$5M lawsuit claims The Port stiffed local developer over redevelopment of Millennium Hotel site

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2020/02/25/5-m-suit-claims-port-stiffed-local-developer-millennium-deal/4866181002/

Edited February 25, 20205 yr by oakiehigh

On 1/27/2020 at 10:21 AM, taestell said:

The latest Business Courier article doesn't make it clear whether Vandercar will be involved in the eventual redevelopment of that site or not. If a way, it makes it even more shady if Vandercar doesn't even have any part in the redevelopment and simply got paid off for their "help" in acquiring the Millennium.

 

Enquirer story:

 

Quote

Smyjunas received a $2.5 million fee from The Port after it closed on the $36 million purchase of the property at 150 W. Fifth St. on Feb. 14. [...]

 

But The Port also agreed to pay him an additional $5 million when it issued bonds to redevelop the hotel site, according to a copy of the contract between The Port and Vandercar obtained by The Enquirer.

 

So, yeah, he will not be involved in the development in any way and made $7.5 million for simply playing "matchmaker" in this deal.

Smyjunas and Cranley, sitting in a tree...

On 1/15/2020 at 10:17 AM, Ucgrad2015 said:

If it’s going to take a year I am assuming that it will not be imploded but basically disassembled? 

 

The Port now says that a portion of the building will be imploded. The article doesn't have many specifics beyond, "the portion closest to 84.51 will be demolished by hand and the rest of the building will be imploded."

The whole thing keeps getting fishier and fishier.  The heating system has been "compromised"?  Despite the fact the building was occupied by guests just five weeks ago?  

36 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

The whole thing keeps getting fishier and fishier.  The heating system has been "compromised"?  Despite the fact the building was occupied by guests just five weeks ago?  

Not sure what that means but i think for at least the last 2 years there was a few portable HVAC units under the vehicle entrance with vents running through holes cut into the windows. Something was wrong with it.

On 1/15/2020 at 2:44 PM, taestell said:

The Convention Center isn't even sure if they need to expand -- they just started studying it in October and probably won't know the answer for a few more months.

 

Serious question. What impact is Covid-19 going to have on the convention center's expansion plans, and for that matter, the future plans of convention centers across the country? Virtually every medium to large conference or convention is being cancelled this spring, which will have an immediate financial impact. But I wouldn't be surprised if people remain hesitant to travel to big conventions, and convention centers see a measurable decline for the next few years.

On the bright side, with this Covid 19 stuff, the city is not going to miss any of the hotel rooms from the closed soon to be demolished Millennium 

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

On the bright side, with this Covid 19 stuff, the city is not going to miss any of the hotel rooms from the closed soon to be demolished Millennium 

 

This is a crazy stroke of luck.  On another forum somebody reprimanded me for saying I had a "loser mentality" because I acknowledged the existence of luck. 

Back in 83-84 when the convention expansion began and 2000 new jobs were just around the corner .

 

 

On 3/11/2020 at 9:23 PM, taestell said:

 

Serious question. What impact is Covid-19 going to have on the convention center's expansion plans, and for that matter, the future plans of convention centers across the country? Virtually every medium to large conference or convention is being cancelled this spring, which will have an immediate financial impact. But I wouldn't be surprised if people remain hesitant to travel to big conventions, and convention centers see a measurable decline for the next few years.

 

It should lead to cheaper construction costs if the building industry implodes (pardon the pun) and real estate development slows.

1 hour ago, Miami-Erie said:

 

It should lead to cheaper construction costs if the building industry implodes (pardon the pun) and real estate development slows.

From what I remember they’re currently evaluating different options for size of the hotel and whether to expand the convention center. I’d guess that with the near term uncertainty in the convention and tourism industries, they go with a conservative approach.

Maybe this is shortsighted and a few years from now people have totally moved past this scare, and we’d regret not going bigger, but I could also see this changing how conventions function in general so it’s a tough call to make.

Edited March 16, 20205 yr by Guy23

On 3/16/2020 at 11:25 AM, Guy23 said:

From what I remember they’re currently evaluating different options for size of the hotel and whether to expand the convention center. I’d guess that with the near term uncertainty in the convention and tourism industries, they go with a conservative approach.

Maybe this is shortsighted and a few years from now people have totally moved past this scare, and we’d regret not going bigger, but I could also see this changing how conventions function in general so it’s a tough call to make.

 

Why would you build a multi-million dollar convention center with near term uncertainty as a driver?  Centers like this have a lifespan of decades, so building anything for the near term is shortsighted.  Projects like this are built with the long term in mind.  This virus will pass and things will get back to normal as they always do.  The convention industry won't be affected outside of a really bad quarter.

7 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

 

Why would you build a multi-million dollar convention center with near term uncertainty as a driver?  Centers like this have a lifespan of decades, so building anything for the near term is shortsighted.  Projects like this are built with the long term in mind.  This virus will pass and things will get back to normal as they always do.  The convention industry won't be affected outside of a really bad quarter.

I don’t think it’s as simple as ‘a really bad quarter.’ From talking to people in tourism related industries, it’s expected that the fallout from this could be years, and there’s a chance it ultimately changes the way we view conventions and large gatherings for a long time.

Its just an extremely uncertain time to be making projections about tourism and conventions.

18 minutes ago, Guy23 said:

I don’t think it’s as simple as ‘a really bad quarter.’ From talking to people in tourism related industries, it’s expected that the fallout from this could be years, and there’s a chance it ultimately changes the way we view conventions and large gatherings for a long time.

Its just an extremely uncertain time to be making projections about tourism and conventions.

 

^I am with you on this that it could be bad for a few years for sure, but I think things will be more "normal" than they are different, just my opinion.

 

I read where people are getting immune from this after full recovery, but I think the tamping down / social distancing is going to last something like over a year... 

31 minutes ago, Guy23 said:

I don’t think it’s as simple as ‘a really bad quarter.’ From talking to people in tourism related industries, it’s expected that the fallout from this could be years, and there’s a chance it ultimately changes the way we view conventions and large gatherings for a long time.

 

I am with you, and I think this will have big impacts far beyond even 1 year. The companies that cancelled their in-person conferences this year and moved to online-only ... they are going to reconsider whether they need to have huge, expensive in-person conferences in the future. Might take another 3 or 4 years before people are comfortable going to big, crowded events again.

Magic: The Gathering and youth sports will probably pick up again fairly quickly.

46 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

I am with you, and I think this will have big impacts far beyond even 1 year. The companies that cancelled their in-person conferences this year and moved to online-only ... they are going to reconsider whether they need to have huge, expensive in-person conferences in the future. Might take another 3 or 4 years before people are comfortable going to big, crowded events again.

 

Maybe I am completely wrong but I think it will be more like... once we know the virus is contained and there is a vaccine and and anti-viral, things will get back to normal again, or at least 80 or 90% of normal.

 

I am saying this based on the fact that these types of novel viruses show up once every 100 years. The coronavirus will probably mutate, etc. but once we have the vaccine and anti-viral, after this pandemic goes through, we will be back to normal fairly quick.

 

We are human beings, we are wired to be with other people, once people know they are safe, they will go back to old habits... maybe not all the way, but very close. Humans are meant to be in relationship and around each other socially. There will be some people I am sure which distance themselves for life, but for the majority of people that won't be the case, in my opinion.

38 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

Maybe I am completely wrong but I think it will be more like... once we know the virus is contained and there is a vaccine and and anti-viral, things will get back to normal again, or at least 80 or 90% of normal.

 

The thing is that so much of our economy is based on squeezing out every last tiny fraction of a percent that even 90% of normal can be a crushing blow to a lot of industries.  In construction for example, you can have multi tens of million dollar projects where they still scrimp and squeeze on every little detail so they can get that extra 2% out of it.  Even if vinyl baseboards, unfinished exposed concrete, and plastic lights aren't going towards a new Alfa Romeo for the developer, tiny fluctuations in interest rates or demand curves are enough for project finances to no longer pencil out.  With the way things are going, returning to 80-90% of normal would be a best case scenario, even if it's still objectively a disaster.  I guess it's more a question of what outfits will be able to weather the storm long enough to capture that market after all is said and done.  

It's possible that regional convention centers like Cincinnati's and small ones like NKY and Sharonville might be fine, but the major ones like Moscone in San Francisco might feel the pain for several years. To me it still seems like a bad idea for Cincinnati to expand right now.

1 hour ago, IAGuy39 said:

 

Maybe I am completely wrong but I think it will be more like... once we know the virus is contained and there is a vaccine and and anti-viral, things will get back to normal again, or at least 80 or 90% of normal.

 

I am saying this based on the fact that these types of novel viruses show up once every 100 years. The coronavirus will probably mutate, etc. but once we have the vaccine and anti-viral, after this pandemic goes through, we will be back to normal fairly quick.

 

We are human beings, we are wired to be with other people, once people know they are safe, they will go back to old habits... maybe not all the way, but very close. Humans are meant to be in relationship and around each other socially. There will be some people I am sure which distance themselves for life, but for the majority of people that won't be the case, in my opinion.

All of this seems reasonable, but I think everyone here agrees that there is complete uncertainty here.
 

It makes the decision on how to invest 10s or even 100s of millions of public dollars really challenging when there is so much we don’t know on the future of the market so because of that it might make sense to either choose the conservative approach or hold off making any decisions for a little while and see how everything shakes out.

 

 

The DOW and Corona and election and finally no one is allowed out to buy anything,  will change this country and the world for the next 8 years. it will be ugly. Stocks should have never gone up this fast. checkout the last two weeks. There will be not convention center addition and there will not be a convention hotel for at least 8 years

Edited March 18, 20205 yr by RJohnson
clarification

3 hours ago, RJohnson said:

The DOW and Corona and election and finally no one is allowed out to buy anything,  will change this country and the world for the next 8 years. it will be ugly. Stocks should have never gone up this fast. checkout the last two weeks. There will be not convention center addition and there will not be a convention hotel for at least 8 years

LOL. Inhale and exhale. 

On 3/18/2020 at 10:30 AM, taestell said:

The companies that cancelled their in-person conferences this year and moved to online-only ... they are going to reconsider whether they need to have huge, expensive in-person conferences in the future.

 

One example: O'Reilly has made the decision to get out of in-person conferences permanently. Up until this pandemic, they had been holding over a dozen multi-day conferences each year in multiple cities across the US and around the world. They will pivot to focus on their online training programs and publishing business.

There will always be demand for in person conferences. There is a good portion of them that act as junkets and team building that you cant really do well on the internet. It will probably depress the demand for a while as more can move online, but there is a networking aspect that can never be truly replaced online vs in person.  For example, our business, while small, has a policy that given a choice, where we can, we will not do business with a vendor that does not care to meet us face to face. Often that means coming to us. It pushes us to do more business with local companies as opposed to someone in Cali, etc. and makes that vendor decide how much they want our business. If they are willing to come in from Cali or New York to earn our business, we take them seriously then. If they just want to have a Zoom conference, we listen but expect much more to earn the business.

The clock is still ticking down on their webiste - is the Victory of Light conference in Sharonville still on?!!!

https://victoryoflight.com/

 

 

If the corona virus has a lasting negative effect on the hospitality industry which I think it may for the next 12-18 months, The removal of the Millennium Hotels 800+ rooms from the market could be a big short term positive for Downtown Cincinnati. Especially with 300 or so new rooms scheduled to open this year (Lytle Place, Kinley and Ingalls). The millennium also used to offer dirt cheap rates too which would be more attractive to visitors in a slow economy but that other hotels would prefer not to have on the market.

Edited April 6, 20205 yr by 646empire

15 hours ago, 646empire said:

If the corona virus has a lasting negative effect on the hospitality industry which I think it may for the next 12-18 months, The removal of the Millennium Hotels 800+ rooms from the market could be a big short term positive for Downtown Cincinnati. Especially with 300 or so new rooms scheduled to open this year (Lytle Place, Kinley and Ingalls). The millennium also used to offer dirt cheap rates too which would be more attractive to visitors in a slow economy but that other hotels would prefer not to have on the market.

 

Just FYI.  The Marriott Courtyard in the Ingalls Building will not open until 2021.  I agree that taking some supply off the market will help these new hotels get off to a better start when the economy starts up again.

Can anyone give us a run down on this artical? It’s behind a pay wall.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/04/10/tri-state-hotel-boom-comes-to-sudden-stop.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

They're still moving forward with the Millennium demolition:

 

Quote

Laura Brunner, CEO of the Port, said the coronavirus is not yet impacting plans to build a new convention center hotel. Since the Millennium needs to be demolished, a process that will take about a year, the earliest construction would start is summer 2021.

 

 

oh how sad...the hamton inn on madison road on hold. you just hate to see it happen. 

^ But they've already demolished most of what was there.  

1 hour ago, seaswan said:

oh how sad...the hamton inn on madison road on hold. you just hate to see it happen. 

 Hopefully, by some miracle, this project gets cancelled and we can get back to a mixed use infill proposal.

 

My worry was that the Corryville Tru hotel would be paused.  Glad that is still happening to hide the Kroger crater there.

I'm most curious to see what happens with the Gwynne. If the hotel plan is cancelled, does it stay office or do they convert it to apartments?

World Peace Bell Hotel?  That site has been a 20-year Gong Show. 

On 4/10/2020 at 4:11 PM, taestell said:

I'm most curious to see what happens with the Gwynne. If the hotel plan is cancelled, does it stay office or do they convert it to apartments?

 

Not sure the Gwyne hotel plans are cancelled.  Nouvo RE is sitting out the C-19 period, but will likely be back when the world returns to normal.  Still going to be a huge undersupply of hotels in Cincinnati.

Edited April 12, 20205 yr by thesenator

Singapore was hit by the virus sooner and it was taken much more seriously there.  You have to wonder if the owners were eager to unload it, knowing that the hapless Americans would be facing a years-long slowdown in hotel stays. 

On 4/10/2020 at 2:03 PM, taestell said:

They're still moving forward with the Millennium demolition:

 

 

 

WHile the hotel will draw business to other hotels and help the overall hospitality industry in town, the bigger question is how they will have the money to build it. 

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

WHile the hotel will draw business to other hotels and help the overall hospitality industry in town, the bigger question is how they will have the money to build it. 

 

It's unclear at this point what shape the city, county, and port will be in one year from now.  All might be forced to raise a significant temporary tax to pay down debt. 

21 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Singapore was hit by the virus sooner and it was taken much more seriously there.  You have to wonder if the owners were eager to unload it, knowing that the hapless Americans would be facing a years-long slowdown in hotel stays. 

 

C'mon man... check your basic timeline before proposing theories like this. Singapore didn't have its first case until Jan 23, 2020. The very first reported cases were in Wuhan in December 2019. The Port entered the purchase agreement in early November. I usually just ignore your theories about other people's motivations, but this kind of misattribution is too much.  

Singapore is ethnically Chinese and was undoubtedly following the situation very closely in December if not earlier and took it much more seriously.  

 

We could have simply paid litigation to walk away from this contract.  Instead, we got played.  

Port selects Turner Construction, D.E. Foxx and Jostin to oversee former Millennium Hotel redevelopment

 

The Port of Greater Cincinnati Development Authority has awarded key contracts for the upcoming demolition and expected redevelopment of the former Millennium Hotel in downtown Cincinnati.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/09/25/port-awards-contracts-for-millennium-hotel.html

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/12/11/fizzle-goes-the-dynamite-port-unlikely-to-implode.amp.html
 

Cant read the details but it looks like no partial implosion. Seems like this demolition is dragging a bit. I would have thought they would’ve started by now.

Edited December 17, 20204 yr by 646empire

43 minutes ago, 646empire said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/12/11/fizzle-goes-the-dynamite-port-unlikely-to-implode.amp.html
 

Cant read the details but it looks like no partial implosion. Seems like this demolition is dragging a bit. I would have thought they would’ve started by now.

The article just says that it's a complicated building to demolish since so many things are nearby and it has numerous utilities/services running through it:

 

Quote

In addition to the complexity of demolishing a 350-foot tall hotel in a tight downtown site, the property has a number of telecommunications services that run through the building that will need to be rerouted, two skywalks will have to be removed and the Port is working through easements and rights of way as part of consolidating the parcels. Also, the CoolCo underground chilled water loop that services downtown runs through the hotel’s basement and must remain in service during demolition, Brunner said.

 

Is this one of the ones coming down due to our friends on Council's alleged corruption?

19 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

Is this one of the ones coming down due to our friends on Council's alleged corruption?

 

I think most of the shady dealmaking was around what will replace the Contention Place building at the SW corner of 5th & Elm, not specifically with the replacement of the Millennium. Although I'm sure the FBI is looking into the shady way that a private developer made millions for simply being the "dealmaker" in the Millennium redevelopment.

20 hours ago, jwulsin said:

The article just says that it's a complicated building to demolish since so many things are nearby and it has numerous utilities/services running through it

 

I was fascinated to learn from that article that we have a small independent chilled water utility operating in the Central Business District. I can't find any information about them other than the marketing blurbs on their website. Would love to know more about where their facilities are and which buildings they serve.

 

Lots of cities have steam utilities — in Detroit you will see stream plants around the city and actual steam escaping from manhole covers. Cincinnati used to have one but it doesn't anymore.

It is interesting that Cincinnati has one, I didn't know that either. Steam is being phased out for 'heated hot water' systems because it's just not as sustainable as systems that can be heated via geo-thermal and clean electricity. Miami university and Ball State both have large geo-thermal systems and are in the process of phasing out all steam piping. Centralized loops of chilled water (or glycol) and heating hot water are the future for systems like this. 

2 hours ago, ucgrady said:

It is interesting that Cincinnati has one, I didn't know that either. Steam is being phased out for 'heated hot water' systems because it's just not as sustainable as systems that can be heated via geo-thermal and clean electricity. Miami university and Ball State both have large geo-thermal systems and are in the process of phasing out all steam piping. Centralized loops of chilled water (or glycol) and heating hot water are the future for systems like this. 

CoolCo is located in the basement of the 4th & Walnut Center (SE corner) that has been otherwise vacant for more than a year.  The planned 2 Flag Hilton development has been canceled and the building is for sale.  Many lookers, no takers.

 

CoolCo has numerous cooling towers on top of the adjacent 6-story building  (also vacant) and a water loop through a fair portion of town.

11 hours ago, taestell said:

I was fascinated to learn from that article that we have a small independent chilled water utility operating in the Central Business District.

 

Huh, well would you look at that.  Chicago has an extensive chilled water utility in the Loop.  I remember reading a big spread in the Chicago Tribune about it sometime in the late 1990s.  Apparently the company that operates it now has utility service in several other large cities too.  A shame these systems fly so much under the radar, and their websites are useless corporate marketing drivel.  

 

Steam systems, very prevalent in NYC and college campuses, are very difficult and expensive to operate and keep working.  I think a lot of the district heating plants in Europe either were always hot water, or the older steams systems were converted to hot water.  Steam was useful before electric motors and pumps because it would just work its way through the pipes under its own pressure.  In fact, I think that many downtown buildings around the turn of the 20th century would use steam (district or from their own boilers) to generate their own electricity (especially for elevators), before electric companies came around.  Trouble is that steam requires complicated balancing, drains, traps, and heftier pipes and insulation than hot water. The amount of heat it provides isn't really needed either, certainly not these days.  Large downtown buildings rarely need as much heating as cooling, even in winter, so it's not so surprising to see district chilled water take the place of district heating.