23 minutes ago, taestell said:

This doesn't necessarily mean that a new hotel or something else won't be built on the vacant lot south of the convention center at some point. Just that 3CDC is going to step back and not get in Hamilton County's way while they pursue a rehab of the Millennium. It's not a bad thing IMO.

 

It's not like the Millennium was going to be imploded after the new 3CDC hotel opens. Millennium would just sit there deteriorating and declining into a "budget" hotel. They might as well rehab it now and make it semi-nice. After the convention center expansion, there may be demand for an upper tier hotel (Conrad/JW Marriott/Park Hyatt) in the vacant lot.

 

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I would assume that whatever happens, 3CDC will still pursue some hotel on that parcel, the study that was done did say that the city could handle over 600 new rooms.  

Why did the County not coordinate with the City and 3CDC before they issued an RFP? Given the reputation Cincinnati has with out of town developers, a stunt like this- calling off an RFP after a much publicized release- just reinforces the idea that Cincinnati is a poor place to build projects. 

Oh, this is interesting: Potential developer of Millennium Hotel identified

 

This is a paywalled article, so I don't want to give too much away, but this sentence is important:

 

The existing hotel will be demolished as a part of any redevelopment plan.

2 hours ago, edale said:

Why did the County not coordinate with the City and 3CDC before they issued an RFP? Given the reputation Cincinnati has with out of town developers, a stunt like this- calling off an RFP after a much publicized release- just reinforces the idea that Cincinnati is a poor place to build projects. 

 

Same reason why it took one attorney, Mr. Gableman to get communication and meetings going between all parties to make The Banks a reality. The local powers that be, never communicate with each other until its too late or when the golden opportunity has passed. 

18 minutes ago, taestell said:

Oh, this is interesting: Potential developer of Millennium Hotel identified

 

This is a paywalled article, so I don't want to give too much away, but this sentence is important:

 

The existing hotel will be demolished as a part of any redevelopment plan.

So...why dont they say that in the headline? It seemed like it was going to be renovated, but this will be huge

Edited August 7, 20195 yr by seaswan

Probably because at this time, nothing has been officially announced. All we knew this morning is that 3CDC put their plans for a new hotel on hold, and then several readers contacted the Business Courier to anonymously share details about the Millennium project so they published a second article with that information. But Business Courier (probably) hasn't seen renderings yet and doesn't have any detailed information about the project.

I am a bit torn on this. 1) If they tear it down, there is a big hole in hotel rooms in the area for 2+ years until the new one is built and could hurt traffic during that time , whereas a new facility opening would not cause any interference with convention traffic.

2) The footprint seems small for a convention level hotel by today's standards and would they be able to support the convention center with additional meeting space in this footprint

 

On the flip side, if they don't build on the new lot, it gives a perfect spot for future convention center expansion in the coming years

but, is that really a great spot for convention center expansion (it would kill off anything west of that block from a street level standpoint (which makes a hotel a much better development for that spot)

 

Personally, I was all for building a new hotel in the lot, leaving the Millennium as a low price option in the city, and having a good 5* option on the west side of downtown. Also, giving people a reason to travel to that part of downtown beyond the residents who live there. and spurring development on that lot.

Tearing it down lets them expand the convention center across Elm St.  A city employee told me about five years ago that they had already explored the idea's feasibility and done preliminary design.  

The Oakley Station developers are going to tear down and redevelop the Millenium site? Oh my.

28 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

Tearing it down lets them expand the convention center across Elm St.  A city employee told me about five years ago that they had already explored the idea's feasibility and done preliminary design.  

 

Seems more likely they will go through with this terrible plan now. 

So convention center expands into the millennium lot site and then 3cdc will build a new convention hotel on the current large empty lot?

 

If that's the case, why did 3cdc remove the RFP? 

9 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

 

Seems more likely they will go through with this terrible plan now. 

 

Any elaboration as to why it's a terrible plan?

7 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Any elaboration as to why it's a terrible plan?

 

As I recall the plan was to sink Elm Street into a trench and build the convention center on top of it. Would be bad for street life and pedestrians and enlarge the psychological and physical barrier the convention center creates across the western half of downtown

Edited August 7, 20195 yr by thebillshark

47 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

Tearing it down lets them expand the convention center across Elm St.  A city employee told me about five years ago that they had already explored the idea's feasibility and done preliminary design.  

But wasn't that the idea before the 84.51 building was built. It would have made sense then because you had the entire block to work with. Now, you would only have 1/3 of a block and it hardly seems worth the trouble then. If you expand across Elm street, you still are small and now you are boxed in that direction for further expansion. THe amount of space you get is pretty small for a large convention space. I just don't see that happening anymore. I could see going South over 5th street or more likely be better to go North over 6th.

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

But wasn't that the idea before the 84.51 building was built. It would have made sense then because you had the entire block to work with. Now, you would only have 1/3 of a block and it hardly seems worth the trouble then. If you expand across Elm street, you still are small and now you are boxed in that direction for further expansion. THe amount of space you get is pretty small for a large convention space. I just don't see that happening anymore. I could see going South over 5th street or more likely be better to go North over 6th.

 

The original idea was to expand over Central Ave. and then over I-75, but we're still waiting on the BSB rebuild.  The fact that they're moving in another direction, along with the Texas Turnaround in Covington, indicates that nobody thinks the new BSB is really going to happen in the next ten years.  

 

I'm not quite sure what specific future ramp and pillar is preventing the thing from being expanded over I-75, but it must be pretty significant or else they wouldn't be trying to make another configuration work.  

 

 

 

If they do tear it down they better have everything ready to start construction as soon as the demo is done. I don’t want some vacant lot for 10 years.  I really hope if they do that there will be a hotel to replace it in that lot or the 3CDC lot because if not it’ll leave a void in the skyline. 

3 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

The original idea was to expand over Central Ave. and then over I-75, but we're still waiting on the BSB rebuild.  The fact that they're moving in another direction, along with the Texas Turnaround in Covington, indicates that nobody thinks the new BSB is really going to happen in the next ten years.  

 

I'm not quite sure what specific future ramp and pillar is preventing the thing from being expanded over I-75, but it must be pretty significant or else they wouldn't be trying to make another configuration work.  

 

 

 

But Jake, is it even worth it to consider an expansion over Elm Street now that the 84.51 building takes up 2/3 of that block. It seems like an expensive expansion for not that much growth and no room for future expansion.

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

But Jake, is it even worth it to consider an expansion over Elm Street now that the 84.51 building takes up 2/3 of that block. It seems like an expensive expansion for not that much growth and no room for future expansion.

 

The millenium occupies slightly less than half of the block.  If they expand over Elm, they will be able to add roughly 300 feet to the building (200 feet of the block + 66 feet of Elm St. + about 50 feet of the lobby).  This is bigger than the circa-2006 expansion that took over the WCPO studio property. 

 

I don't think there are any good options.  Expanding to the north will require them to replace the parking garages that will be torn down, replace the loading docks, and presumably bury 6th St. in some sort of tunnel.

 

 

 

 

 They’re both bad options but If I had to pick expanding over 6th and and expanding over Elm I’d choose 6th. With 6th you’d be taking basically the end of the street at the edge of downtown in an area with existing structures hostile to street activity whereas with Elm you’d be taking the middle of a street in what otherwise could be a walkable active corridor especially if the Millennium was replaced with something that addressed the street better.

Exactly, the intersection of 6th & Plum is already so pedestrian hostile, and 6th basically serves as a "car sewer" west of Elm anyway. If they demolish the two deteriorating parking garages to the north (which were both purchased by the Port Authority a few months ago...), sink 6th down, and expand the convention center to the north over 6th, it looks like they can expand the current convention center footprint by at least 50%. The only negative impact that this would have on the street grid is that Plum would have to end at 7th (or perhaps George), so drivers that use Central Parkway-to-Plum-to-6th-to-the highway ramps would have to find another route. However you could just reconfigure Central Avenue as two-way (eliminating the one-way northbound configuration between 7th and 9th) to solve that problem... and go ahead and make Plum Street two-way while you're at it.

I look at this overall as a win, maybe it delays the new convention hotel a bit.

 

Sorry, I am pretty dumb about this project and planning, would the Lot 3CDC was working on still probably be a hotel when all is said and done? Or would that more likely be part of the convention center expansion?

21 hours ago, taestell said:

Oh, this is interesting: Potential developer of Millennium Hotel identified

 

This is a paywalled article, so I don't want to give too much away, but this sentence is important:

 

The existing hotel will be demolished as a part of any redevelopment plan.

 

Just a reminder that if you have a library card, you automatically have access to the Business Courier's subscriber content (along with all sorts of other great online resources - check out the resources listed on the library's home page if you haven't before).

 

You can use this link, login with your card number and pin, and read the article:

 

https://www-bizjournals-com.research.cincinnatilibrary.org/cincinnati/news/2019/08/07/exclusive-potential-developer-of-millennium-hotel.html

 

Edit: I think you have to go here first, click the link, login, and then click the link above for it to work:

 

https://www.cincinnatilibrary.org/resources/research.asp?group=5

 

 

Edited August 8, 20195 yr by Ram23

Interestingly enough, it still locks me out of the articles.  I may end up subscribing to CBC anyway given how much I read their stuff or follow Chris W's tweets.

1 hour ago, IAGuy39 said:

Sorry, I am pretty dumb about this project and planning, would the Lot 3CDC was working on still probably be a hotel when all is said and done? Or would that more likely be part of the convention center expansion?

 

We are all reading the tea leaves trying to figure that out. I have a feeling Hamilton County is going to propose demolishing the Millennium, expanding the convention center to the east over Elm Street, and building a new hotel on top of convention space where the Millennium exists now. Whether 3CDC eventually builds their own hotel on the south lot probably depends on how big the New Millennium hotel is and what hotel flag it flies. If the county builds a 600 room hotel and gets a Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt flag for it, 3CDC probably won't build their hotel, and the south lot could become some other mixed-use project. I doubt the convention center itself would expand south onto the 3CDC lot, as that configuration doesn't make a lot of sense.

17 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

Interestingly enough, it still locks me out of the articles.  I may end up subscribing to CBC anyway given how much I read their stuff or follow Chris W's tweets.

 

Try going here and clicking on the Business Courier site

https://www.cincinnatilibrary.org/resources/research.asp?group=5

22 minutes ago, taestell said:

 I doubt the convention center itself would expand south onto the 3CDC lot, as that configuration doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

I think its possible, but it would be more like Louisville's convention center where the main open exhibition space is on the upper floor spanning over the street. The first floor could remain, and a second floor equal in size to the existing convention center could be placed from 4th to 6th. The hotel would then take the place of the Millennium. This would be very expensive but would result in the largest open and uninterrupted floor plate. It could even extend all the way to George Street over top of the Port owned parking garage. 

Edited August 8, 20195 yr by ucgrady

23 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

We are all reading the tea leaves trying to figure that out. I have a feeling Hamilton County is going to propose demolishing the Millennium, expanding the convention center to the east over Elm Street, and building a new hotel on top of convention space where the Millennium exists now. Whether 3CDC eventually builds their own hotel on the south lot probably depends on how big the New Millennium hotel is and what hotel flag it flies. If the county builds a 600 room hotel and gets a Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt flag for it, 3CDC probably won't build their hotel, and the south lot could become some other mixed-use project. I doubt the convention center itself would expand south onto the 3CDC lot, as that configuration doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

That would be more ideal imo anyways.

 

Use that empty lot for a mixed use development and bring a cluster of commercial space that can directly serve the convention center guests. 

 

Bring office space/residential on top of the commercial space to really enhance pedestrian activity.

 

I complained about this a few months while visiting the convention center about how you have such a strong flow of pedestrians coming in an out for various conventions but a severe lack of retail/cafes/resturaunts to directly see these guests.

Well the problem with expanding east is that you completely kill the pedestrian activity on Elm. As soon as you make Elm an "underpass" below the convention center, people won't walk there. If you expand north across 6th (which is already a pedestrian dead zone) you keep the convention center blob more contained to the west side of downtown (east of Elm), and you have the potential to make Elm Street and Fifth Street into much more vibrant, pedestrian-oriented streets. Especially if 3CDC eventually builds a hotel or other mixed-use development on their south lot, bringing more pedestrian activity to Fourth and Fifth streets.

So maybe this is dumb question, but if the convention center needs to expand so badly, why doesn't it expand upward.  Add a new floor (third?) on top of the whole thing.

One big room is better than 3 small rooms even if the 3 small rooms end up adding up to twice the size. If someone isn't set up in the main area there's a much better chance of them seeing less traffic. Even separate-but-equal ends up with disadvantages.

49 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Try going here and clicking on the Business Courier site

https://www.cincinnatilibrary.org/resources/research.asp?group=5

 

That's annoying. You can't access the articles via the "Latest News" section, you have to go via the front page, which is probably a bug.  I hate the layout of the front page, it is so hard to find anything.

34 minutes ago, JoeHarmon said:

So maybe this is dumb question, but if the convention center needs to expand so badly, why doesn't it expand upward.  Add a new floor (third?) on top of the whole thing.

 

Convention planners don't value up, they rely heavily on their ability to assemble continuous space, the business just doesn't want stacked space or adjacent space unless its meeting rooms. If you look at the centers that score the bigger bookings and big name shows, it's the centers that have the large uninterrupted spaces and a ton of "break out" or meeting rooms... that and connected hotel rooms. 

 

Overall, the big convention business is hard and expensive to break into. The most recent I can think of is Nashville, but at a price of about $650 million. Large (200,000+ square feet) uninterrupted space, dozens of meeting rooms, ballrooms, and a thousands of connected hotel rooms are what drive the business and ironically those are some of the hardest things to achieve in an urban environment. 

Construct a super elevator platform that has the ability to transport thousands of guests at a tjme, and build the convention center suspended in the sky. All the free space imaginable. 

6 minutes ago, DevolsDance said:

 

Convention planners don't value up, they rely heavily on their ability to assemble continuous space, the business just doesn't want stacked space or adjacent space unless its meeting rooms. If you look at the centers that score the bigger bookings and big name shows, it's the centers that have the large uninterrupted spaces and a ton of "break out" or meeting rooms... that and connected hotel rooms. 

 

Overall, the big convention business is hard and expensive to break into. The most recent I can think of is Nashville, but at a price of about $650 million. Large (200,000+ square feet) uninterrupted space, dozens of meeting rooms, ballrooms, and a thousands of connected hotel rooms are what drive the business and ironically those are some of the hardest things to achieve in an urban environment. 

 

Nashville had to tear down quite a number of businesses (including the strip club where Kid Rock punched the DJ) to assemble that big piece of land.  Cincinnati quite plainly does not have that option in the downtown area.  

 

Expansion of the NKY convention center of the IRS site is the only big piece of land close to downtown with the potential to do something like what Nashville has.  

 

 

 

2 hours ago, taestell said:

 

We are all reading the tea leaves trying to figure that out. I have a feeling Hamilton County is going to propose demolishing the Millennium, expanding the convention center to the east over Elm Street, and building a new hotel on top of convention space where the Millennium exists now. Whether 3CDC eventually builds their own hotel on the south lot probably depends on how big the New Millennium hotel is and what hotel flag it flies. If the county builds a 600 room hotel and gets a Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt flag for it, 3CDC probably won't build their hotel, and the south lot could become some other mixed-use project. I doubt the convention center itself would expand south onto the 3CDC lot, as that configuration doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

I am trying to understand what a 3rd party developer has to gain in buying the property, demolishing the hotel then using that land for the convention space. Clearly the 3rd party developer wants a return on this investment, so I would assume they plan to develop the lot, which would mean it would be something other than the convention expansion. Unless it would be used as a land swap with the lot south of the convention center for them to develop?

 

If it were to be used for convention center space, I would think the county/port/etc would be buying the hotel directly. 

1 hour ago, Moonstruck0 said:

 

I am trying to understand what a 3rd party developer has to gain in buying the property, demolishing the hotel then using that land for the convention space. Clearly the 3rd party developer wants a return on this investment, so I would assume they plan to develop the lot, which would mean it would be something other than the convention expansion. Unless it would be used as a land swap with the lot south of the convention center for them to develop?

 

If it were to be used for convention center space, I would think the county/port/etc would be buying the hotel directly. 

 

Our city fathers are much, much smarter than we are. I'm sure they'll come up with something fantastic.  

 

 

 

Cities seem to chase conventions at all cost, but is it really worth the investment? It seems to be a bit like stadiums. Everybody wants to build one but they never really live up to the hype. In Philly, they destroyed 1/3rd of one of the largest Chinatowns in the country for their convention center. Chinatown is a huge tourist attraction and would be even better if it was still intact. They do a lot of convention business too, but was it worth this? 

1 hour ago, Moonstruck0 said:

I am trying to understand what a 3rd party developer has to gain in buying the property, demolishing the hotel then using that land for the convention space. Clearly the 3rd party developer wants a return on this investment, so I would assume they plan to develop the lot, which would mean it would be something other than the convention expansion. Unless it would be used as a land swap with the lot south of the convention center for them to develop?

 

If it were to be used for convention center space, I would think the county/port/etc would be buying the hotel directly. 

 

I think they are going to propose building a new hotel over the expanded convention space. So the Millennium would be demolished, the convention center itself will be expanded east onto to that site, and a new hotel will be built on floors 3+ above that expansion.

8 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

I think they are going to propose building a new hotel over the expanded convention space. So the Millennium would be demolished, the convention center itself will be expanded east onto to that site, and a new hotel will be built on floors 3+ above that expansion.

 

Would this concept presumably impact the skyline more than the millennium hotel did?

Philadelphia's is another example of the main exhibit space being on the second floor. I just think if we need a huge open space it has to go up, because adding piecemeal spaces won't really do anything to improve the conventions and the only other option is having to tunnel a downtown road underneath the expansion.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/08/08/local-developer-rob-smyjunas-negotiating-contract-buy-millennium-which-would-demolished-future-devel/1953646001/

 

This latest article makes it sound like the plan is indeed to expand the convention center with the millennium lot and then build a new convention hotel above the expansion. 

So fingers crossed for mixed use "tower"  in the lot to the south? Who technically owns that land?

Edited August 8, 20195 yr by seaswan

11 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

I think they are going to propose building a new hotel over the expanded convention space. So the Millennium would be demolished, the convention center itself will be expanded east onto to that site, and a new hotel will be built on floors 3+ above that expansion.

 

If so the end layout will be a huge compromise.  The main benefit of expanding eastward is that the entrance to the center will move closer to the center of downtown, but the expansion will not be very significant.  A westward expansion over Central Ave. and I-75 enables a much larger exhibition hall, ostensibly the purpose of the center.  

 

They could have built an all-new convention center on the Kahn's site that could have been huge.  They could have had cab access off the Hopple St. viaduct.  

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, troeros said:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/08/08/local-developer-rob-smyjunas-negotiating-contract-buy-millennium-which-would-demolished-future-devel/1953646001/

 

This latest article makes it sound like the plan is indeed to expand the convention center with the millennium lot and then build a new convention hotel above the expansion. 

 

The money quote

"The hotel would be demolished for a new development, which could include a hotel"

 

Or it could include the new downtown Super Wal-Mart and Meijer. I know Vandercar has lots of experience with that type of development.

Now that I look at it, Philadelphia's is actually kind of what I was picturing. It looks 'L' shaped in plan, but has a large open hall on the upper floor spanning multiple blocks. I just really hate the idea of either making a dead end street - like Plum - or burying a street in a tunnel - like would need to be done to Elm. 

23 minutes ago, seaswan said:

So fingers crossed for mixed use "tower"  in the lot to the south? Who technically owns that land?

 

I believe if I'm not mistaken its 3cdc and the Port Authority.

 

Im fairly confident that what might happen in that 3cdc builds a mixed use development with a smaller capacity name brand hotel...They complete that project and then the Millennium Hotel would be demolished for the expansion of the convention center and the new convention hotel. 

 

 I just don't think it would be in the convention best interest to go 2 plus years without an immediate replace for the hotel capacity lost by the millennium. 

3 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 

The money quote

"The hotel would be demolished for a new development, which could include a hotel"

 

Or it could include the new downtown Super Wal-Mart and Meijer. I know Vandercar has lots of experience with that type of development.

 

Let's be honest, a downtown Walmart would be the biggest development seen in the downtown urban core in the past 15 years.

12 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Let's be honest, a downtown Walmart would be the biggest development seen in the downtown urban core in the past 15 years.

Lolwut.

 

Vandercar is concerning. They inspire zero confidence.

Although the Millennium is a terrible hotel, it would have been nice to have an adaptive reuse of the existing structures, new hotels built on the vacant lot, and a westward expansion of the convention center. I feel like that would have added the most life to western downtown.

 

This current plan will remove a chunk of the skyline for a big question mark. That's concerning to me.

Elm St. between 5th and 6th will be renamed Vandercar Way.  Wait - there already is a Vandercar Way:

 https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/Vandercar-Way-Cincinnati-OH/13115756/

9 minutes ago, jmicha said:

This current plan will remove a chunk of the skyline for a big question mark. That's concerning to me.

 

Agreed.

 

And I actually like the design of the building too, I much prefer the adaptive reuse idea