Seems closely related...
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/08/15/convention-place-building-demolished-converted-parking-lot/2017673001/

Hmm, that's interesting

Interesting, fingers crossed that this is a good sign and that it will remain a parking lot for a temporary period of time. 

So, as far as I am aware, the city/county now own a pretty significant swath of land adjacent to the convention center. Thoughts on how they expand this thing?

 

Edited August 15, 20195 yr by 10albersa

4 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

So, as far as I am aware, the city/county now own a pretty significant swath of land adjacent to the convention center. Thoughts on how they expand this thing?

 

 

That's alot of land wow!

My guess: south lot becomes convention center expansion, east lot hotel., north lots stay as is.

32 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

So, as far as I am aware, the city/county now own a pretty significant swath of land adjacent to the convention center. Thoughts on how they expand this thing?

 

 

 

Question:

Does the city own Whex garage? I was wondering will they tear it down or keep it if they own it. I work for building management at the Textile Building and the owners are in thought of using it for parking for the Textile Building renovations into Condos/Apartments in the next year or so

The south lot is the worst spot for convention center expansion.  They need continuous space in convention centers, so only being able to partly expand south isn't very helpful. 

 

I think expanding west is the best option but would probably be the most expensive having to go over the highway.  Plus the Brent Spence confusion will likely prevent that from happening. 

 

Expanding north would give them the most new space but you'd have to replace all that parking (or you could not replace them, because we already have plenty of parking.  Expanding east isn't giving you much new space.  I think south is best for a brand new convention center hotel while the Millennium can be upgraded but stay as a mid tier hotel.  Knocking the Millennium down and building a new hotel in it's place doesn't do anything to help the shortage of hotel rooms we currently have.  

Edited August 15, 20195 yr by Cincy513

It would be absolutely wonderful if we could cover up some of that spaghetti to the west, but it won't happen in a million years.

Also the Greater Cincinnati Foundation building right across the street from the Textile building and right next door to Whex garage is completely vacant as of last week

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/article/convention-place-building-to-be-demolished-converted-to-parking-lot/ar-AAFQLDp?fbclid=IwAR2iR9Tv1q6A2AEr5_glCxqqXt0z3NCxirvZFzB7EyLyG1p5WyeLrASF54I

 

I wonder what they will be planning for this site. Says temporarily, but how construction goes in Cincinnati, we prolly won’t be seeing anything for 5-10 years.

Just now, Ucgrad2015 said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/article/convention-place-building-to-be-demolished-converted-to-parking-lot/ar-AAFQLDp?fbclid=IwAR2iR9Tv1q6A2AEr5_glCxqqXt0z3NCxirvZFzB7EyLyG1p5WyeLrASF54I

 

I wonder what they will be planning for this site. Says temporarily, but how construction goes in Cincinnati, we prolly won’t be seeing anything for 5-10 years.

 

I'd have less confidence if this was not associated with the convention overhaul plans..being that it probably is, we will probably see that site developed fairly quickly. 

 

In my mind, assuming millennium is redeveloped, I imagine any type of movement with that lot will probably occur after 4th and Race is done...which is probably another year or so...

https://www.wvxu.org/post/multi-story-downtown-building-coming-down-what-remains-be-seen#stream/0

 

Thr commentary by the port CEO is interesting about future development plans for that lot...."Botique Hotel, apartments, and retail."

 

It would make the most sense for this botique Hotel to be constructed first by 3cdc as a way to gap the loss of hotel rooms by the millennium and then refocus towards building the new convention hotel. 

I know it's about twenty years too late to do this now, but what about building a new convention center next to the casino? You would have to rebuild or accommodate the existing parking garage and Greyhound station, but Eggleston to the Liberty St. ramps is about 2000 linear feet. There's already a large network of bars and restaurants nearby, and some pockets of land to support new development. The project would also make it easier to justify other game-changing infrastructure projects like expanding the subway or building a rail line along 71.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/08/22/millennium-backs-new-replacement-hotel-plan-local-developer/2007722001/

 

"Smyjunas said Hilton would bring to Cincinnati one of its new meetings-and-events-focused, Signia brand hotels, which have a minimum of 500 rooms. The planned Signia Hilton Indianapolis, for example, will have 800 guest rooms and 80,000 square feet of meeting space with an executive roof deck, restaurant, and bar when the hotel is expected to be completed in 2023."

 

 

Cranleys comment near the end of the article hinted that it would an expansion of the convention center and hotel. 

I don't really like the plan of knocking down the millennium to then build a new hotel in it's place.  That would probably take 3-4 years and would cause a real shortage of hotel rooms in downtown.  

18 minutes ago, troeros said:

Cranleys comment near the end of the article hinted that it would an expansion of the convention center and hotel. 

 

How would you be able to accomplish both? Just build the hotel on top of the convention center? 

17 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

I don't really like the plan of knocking down the millennium to then build a new hotel in it's place.  That would probably take 3-4 years and would cause a real shortage of hotel rooms in downtown.  

 

That's why I think that 3cdc will move forward with the boutique hotel/mixed use development first (where the empty parking lot now sits by the convention center) and use that as a buffer to take on some of the lost rooms. 

I don't like the idea of tearing down an 800 room hotel, to replace it with, another 800 room hotel.  Creates so much waste.  Why not just renovate it one floor at a time. Then you can keep most of the rooms open as you go.

Just now, JoeHarmon said:

I don't like the idea of tearing down an 800 room hotel, to replace it with, another 800 room hotel.  Creates so much waste.  Why not just renovate it one floor at a time. Then you can keep most of the rooms open as you go.

Well, you can't just go a floor at a time, it would be extremely noisy for guests above and below, so you would have to close off multiple floors at a time and some of them wouldn't even have renovation work going on in them to create a buffer zone. Even if you did do this the access for workers into the floors being worked on via elevators/stairs would have to be limited in order to minimize dust and debris getting everywhere, which would likely mean that it would take a lot longer to complete renovation works. Not to say it's impossible, but it would definitely be more expensive and take longer.

27 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

That's why I think that 3cdc will move forward with the boutique hotel/mixed use development first (where the empty parking lot now sits by the convention center) and use that as a buffer to take on some of the lost rooms. 

That would be a good idea.  If 3CDC could build a boutique hotel above one of their typical garages with retail on the ground floor it would be a good stopgap and be a good long term addition to the area.  Usually I wouldn't be in favor of the garage but if they build parking with these two new potential hotels it would make it an easier sell to tear down the garages north of the convention center for future expansion.  

32 minutes ago, dnymck said:

Well, you can't just go a floor at a time, it would be extremely noisy for guests above and below, so you would have to close off multiple floors at a time and some of them wouldn't even have renovation work going on in them to create a buffer zone. Even if you did do this the access for workers into the floors being worked on via elevators/stairs would have to be limited in order to minimize dust and debris getting everywhere, which would likely mean that it would take a lot longer to complete renovation works. Not to say it's impossible, but it would definitely be more expensive and take longer.

 

Renovations like this have been done before. The hotel may close down altogether for some periods if they will revamp public spaces, exterior, etc. While it is a complicated and unpleasant process, the point remains that it's ungodly wasteful to demolish the current building. All the demolished building materials essentially go to the landfill. The CO2 release in concrete curing for the new structure is insane. Not to mention all the embodied emissions to completely construct a new building from the ground up. All thing considered, I think some headaches caused by an arduous renovation process would be worth it. Depending on the scope of the renovation, it would likely end up being cheaper as well. The most sustainable building is one that's already built. 

2 minutes ago, Largue said:

 

Renovations like this have been done before. The hotel may close down altogether for some periods if they will revamp public spaces, exterior, etc. While it is a complicated and unpleasant process, the point remains that it's ungodly wasteful to demolish the current building. All the demolished building materials essentially go to the landfill. The CO2 release in concrete curing for the new structure is insane. Not to mention all the embodied emissions to completely construct a new building from the ground up. All thing considered, I think some headaches caused by an arduous renovation process would be worth it. Depending on the scope of the renovation, it would likely end up being cheaper as well. The most sustainable building is one that's already built. 

It seems like they want to knock down the Millennium and use some of the space for a new hotel and some for an expansion of the convention center.  Your point is valid but the current setup of the Millennium is not a very good use of space.  With a high rise they could fit more rooms in much less space then the millennium currently takes up.  

4 hours ago, Largue said:

 

Renovations like this have been done before. The hotel may close down altogether for some periods if they will revamp public spaces, exterior, etc. While it is a complicated and unpleasant process, the point remains that it's ungodly wasteful to demolish the current building. All the demolished building materials essentially go to the landfill. The CO2 release in concrete curing for the new structure is insane. Not to mention all the embodied emissions to completely construct a new building from the ground up. All thing considered, I think some headaches caused by an arduous renovation process would be worth it. Depending on the scope of the renovation, it would likely end up being cheaper as well. The most sustainable building is one that's already built. 

Sorry but having worked in hospitality design for a number of years I can tell you now the south tower is not going to be financially feasible to renovate and bring up to national convention standards. Environmentally speaking yes renovating is better but owners and lending banks are all about the almighty dollar than the environment. 

Hilton Signia is a high end luxury brand that will be a boon for the convention center and downtown. If they can secure the existing hotel and demo it for a new Hilton Signia it will be a major step in right direction for the region.

I've noticed a trend where people, even in the profession, overestimate the renovatability of a building.  Sure anything's possible, with enough money, but there's never enough money.  The old Donato's building at 8th and Main is a case in point.  The floor-to-floor heights were so low that at best you couldn't even get an 8 foot ceiling height in most of it (I think it was closer to 7'-6" in fact).  Even with 8 foot ceilings, there's nowhere left to run HVAC or plumbing without eating into that head height.  So what do you do?  Well you could remove every other floor to make each space double-height.  Clever, but very expensive and risky, especially for a 150+ year old unreinforced masonry building.  And for all the trouble you're taking a six story building down to only three or at best four stories.  If you wanted to get just three or four multi-million dollar condos out of the deal, then that might be feasible, but I think the tradeoff for a much larger 12(?) story apartment building with no parking was well worth it.  The Dennison Hotel, that's a whole other story.  

 

I bring that up because if the Millennium has rooms that are too small, ceilings that are too low, cramped hallways, and mechanical chases that are inadequate, that's a monumentally huge task to try to remedy.  Say everything is only 80% the size it needs to be.  Widen the halls and now you have less room for the rooms.  No problem, just double up the rooms.  But now they're too big, and you cut your occupancy in half.  Ok, instead take three rooms and make them into two.  Now your vertical chases don't line up anymore, even if they had a chance after widening the halls.  Oh, but there's columns buried in those hallway walls, so you can't move them anyway, and there's already too many holes in the floor slabs so you can't cut in new vertical chases. So now the only option is to double up those rooms again, but the rate of return doesn't work if the room count is cut in half.  There's no remedy to the ceiling height situation, no matter what else is doable.  

 

Hotels are so compartmentalized and regimented that making changes which aren't integer multiples gets very difficult.  Cramming hotel rooms into the Ingalls Building is a lesson in compromise and non-compliant prototype design, but it's an historic building with character that makes it worthwhile.  An outdated high rise hotel is a different ballgame because it's so hemmed in by its physical structure (both literally and figuratively).  The best analogy I can come up with is an egg carton.  You have one made to fit medium eggs perfectly, but now you want XL because that's what the demand is for.  You can't just stuff them in the old carton without modification, it won't work.  But to make the cells bigger you pretty much have to destroy the whole thing.  I know it's not great, but my brain is done for tonight.    

The  Millennium reminds me of the Indy Sheraton in downtown Indy. A luxury hotel in its day but it has become functionally obsolete.  It can still serve as a good hotel, but it can never be the 4* hotel you need to have for the convention market and a convention hotel. As stated above, the design is designed toward the traveler in the 1970s and 80s. Taste and style change. That is why you need to tear it down and rebuild it. Otherwise, you take a 2* make it a 3* only to have it go back to being a 2* ten years later. You need to build something that will last 30 years.

 

Personally, I am all for leaving it as a 2* hotel and then building the main convention hotel on the South lot. Why not have a cheaper option for leisure travelers? The only thing I can think of is that it could put the Millennium out of business and then you have an empty hotel tower that decays like the Terrace Plaza is currently doing now.

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 12:26 PM, cin614 said:

Also the Greater Cincinnati Foundation building right across the street from the Textile building and right next door to Whex garage is completely vacant as of last week

The Greater Cincinnati Foundation sold their building and moved. Tire Discounters bought it and they are turning it into their corporate HQ, so that space is not really vacant for the long term.

13 hours ago, savadams13 said:

Sorry but having worked in hospitality design for a number of years I can tell you now the south tower is not going to be financially feasible to renovate and bring up to national convention standards. Environmentally speaking yes renovating is better but owners and lending banks are all about the almighty dollar than the environment. 

Hilton Signia is a high end luxury brand that will be a boon for the convention center and downtown. If they can secure the existing hotel and demo it for a new Hilton Signia it will be a major step in right direction for the region.

 

I agree, there is no way the Millennium could ever be renovated to meet modern luxury hotel standards. The most environmentally friendly outcome we could hope for is a new luxury hotel being built on the south lot, and then the Millennium undergoing a total rehab to turn into a nice Hilton Garden Inn or Courtyard Marriott.

4 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

I agree, there is no way the Millennium could ever be renovated to meet modern luxury hotel standards. The most environmentally friendly outcome we could hope for is a new luxury hotel being built on the south lot, and then the Millennium undergoing a total rehab to turn into a nice Hilton Garden Inn or Courtyard Marriott.

Well Hilton Garden Inn will be bottom half of Fourth and Walnut but there are a number of other limited service brands that would still be available. 

I hope that if we do get a Hotel Signia that it's as tall as the Indy version. 38 stories and 800 rooms.

 

Does anyone know how tall the Millennium Hotel is? 

28 minutes ago, troeros said:

I hope that if we do get a Hotel Signia that it's as tall as the Indy version. 38 stories and 800 rooms.

 

Does anyone know how tall the Millennium Hotel is? 

North Tower is 350' tall. South Tower 226' tall 

15 hours ago, savadams13 said:

Sorry but having worked in hospitality design for a number of years I can tell you now the south tower is not going to be financially feasible to renovate and bring up to national convention standards

 

12 hours ago, jjakucyk said:

I've noticed a trend where people, even in the profession, overestimate the renovatability of a building.

I also work in hospitality design @savadams13 we should grab a drink sometime lol. But I understand that depending on the scope of the renovation and the desired prestige level of the hotel, it could become more expensive to renovate. I've experienced first-hand the difficulty of renovating an older building up to newer hotel standards.

However, I fundamentally disagree that it's ever a good trade-off to destroy an existing structure. We honestly need comprehensive emissions/carbon taxes in place to remove the incentive of demolishing perfectly good buildings. The only exception should be if there is no way to renovate with the existing conditions (like the 8th and Main building). 

I still kind of don't get what is wrong with things that are '70s size? I mean people back then looked at larger things as outdated.

55 minutes ago, Largue said:

However, I fundamentally disagree that it's ever a good trade-off to destroy an existing structure. We honestly need comprehensive emissions/carbon taxes in place to remove the incentive of demolishing perfectly good buildings. The only exception should be if there is no way to renovate with the existing conditions (like the 8th and Main building). 

 

I totally agree that it's a massive waste of resources to throw an existing high-rise hotel tower in the landfill so that we can build a new one. However until we have serious incentives in place to encourage building reuse/discourage demolition (and I think you need both), I don't see how the Millennium would be saved. Our city doesn't even do a good job of preventing the demolition of buildings that are highly desirable and easily convertible to another use (e.g. Dennison Hotel).

I just don't get demolishing a tower over things inside being 1 foot too close to each other. I don't think people are going to be as fat as they are now forever. And people now have one kid at age 40 instead of 8 kids by 25 like they did in the '70s.

Wish someone with the authority had the forethought to work out a deal with 3CDC to allow for future expansion of the Convention Center into the 84.51 building.  Don't know if was possible logistically, but recall seeing where Columbus built a garage near their Convention Center that would allow for future expansion by converting some of the garage floors for the Convention Center. With the pending Millennium Hotel sale, the Convention Center could have picked up another block assuming an Elm St. closure was doable.

42 minutes ago, ArtChelle1 said:

Wish someone with the authority had the forethought to work out a deal with 3CDC to allow for future expansion of the Convention Center into the 84.51 building.  Don't know if was possible logistically, but recall seeing where Columbus built a garage near their Convention Center that would allow for future expansion by converting some of the garage floors for the Convention Center. With the pending Millennium Hotel sale, the Convention Center could have picked up another block assuming an Elm St. closure was doable.

 

The 84.51 building's parking garage was built the ability to convert the garage into more office space for 84.51. However 3CDC is making so much money from the garage that they're not going to allow those floors to be converted to office space, which is why 84.51 is likely going to expand into a different building downtown.

7 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

The 84.51 building's parking garage was built the ability to convert the garage into more office space for 84.51. However 3CDC is making so much money from the garage that they're not going to allow those floors to be converted to office space, which is why 84.51 is likely going to expand into a different building downtown.

84.51 has a terrible legal department if they didn't get the ability to expand in their own building written in a contract.  

1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

I just don't get demolishing a tower over things inside being 1 foot too close to each other. I don't think people are going to be as fat as they are now forever. And people now have one kid at age 40 instead of 8 kids by 25 like they did in the '70s.

It Is about what the public wants and is willing to pay more for. Will they pay for a room in a revamped Millennium, YES. Will they pay MORE for a room at the BRAND NEW HILTON SIGNIA. You Bet!  - The idea is that it is more than a hotel, it needs to be a statement. you cant make the statement reusing the old hotel.

Just a wonky angled pic fro the Carew Tower  to illustrate the blocks of low buildings surrounding the Millennium. Blocks & Blocks of ugly white roofs!  Such a shame that any expansion of the convention center would take up even more downtown real estate vs bridging the otherwise useless land above the expressways. I cropped out the Hyatt but it is the only direct neighbor with any height at all. No new info i just happened to be up there with the kids last weekend and noticed this.

I just looked up the plans for the Washington State Convention Center expansion in Downtown Seattle, and was surprised to see that the new building is six stories tall (most of the upper floors are meeting rooms or "flex" space, with the main exhibition space being on the ground floor), and additionally, the "expansion" is actually a separate building kitty-corner from the existing convention center building. I'm not sure if they intend to split very big conventions between the two buildings, or if the new building will be like the "new" convention center for bigger conventions and the old building used for smaller ones.

 

If other convention centers in the US are starting to build vertically instead of obsessing about how much continuous, uninterrupted floor space they have on a single level ... I am confused why we can't do the same.

 

Boston and San Francisco also have vertical convention centers (Hynes and Moscone Centers); I'm sure there are plenty of others.

Some interesting tidbits....

 

If Vandercar is able to move this project forward, the anticipated timeline would be to close on the purchase of the Millennium in late 2019. Demolition would then start in early 2020, with construction of the new hotel starting in the fourth quarter of 2020.

The expected opening for the new hotel would late 2022 or early 2023, depending upon the size and amount of meeting space.

“While many necessary details will naturally continue to be discussed as the project develops, the community won’t have the option of doing so if the deal is not completed,” the letter states. “We ask our local officials to help reach an agreement securing the necessary control in a timely manner."

 

The agreement would make Vandercar the developer of the hotel, Piper Jaffray the underwriter of the bonds and BradleyPayne the financial adviser along with PFM. Other members of the redevelopment team would include KMK Underwriters Bond Counsel, Skanska USA, Elevar Design Group and Hilton Corp., as the manager of the new proposed Signia or Hilton hotel.

 

Calvert said a new headquarters hotel would need to have 800 rooms and 60,000 square feet of meeting space. She is encouraging the county to continue to work with all parties involved to make sure the city has a headquarters hotel.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/16/city-state-hotel-associations-support-millennium.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

So i told my young sons that the Millennium may come down soon and they asked a question that stumped me. Ill ask here to see what you all think. Do you think it will be imploded? What was the last place that was? I remember the old Olestra plant in St. Bernard but before that was it all the way back to Sander Hall?

I would guess that, due to its proximity to other buildings, they won't be able to implode it. It will likely be taken down slowly with a wrecking ball, like the Pogue's Garage was.

Cinergy Field?

I think the most recent implosion was the Zumbiel Packaging plant near Xavier's campus back in 2008.  

5 hours ago, SleepyLeroy said:

So i told my young sons that the Millennium may come down soon and they asked a question that stumped me. Ill ask here to see what you all think. Do you think it will be imploded? What was the last place that was? I remember the old Olestra plant in St. Bernard but before that was it all the way back to Sander Hall?

 

Demolition, would be strip the building down to bare bones, and then wrecking ball very carefully. North Tower is so close to Elm and Sixth, so both streets would be closed. The south tower, big issue is the 84.51 building. 

Behind a paywall, if anyone pays for enquirer:

https://www.cincinnati.com/restricted/?return=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cincinnati.com%2Fstory%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fcolumnists%2Fpolitics-extra%2F2019%2F09%2F23%2Fmillennium-hotel-first-look-cincinnatis-planned-hilton-signia%2F2412664001%2F