3 minutes ago, TheCOV said:

Because nobody loves sweet sweet taxpayer funded socialism more than the wealthy.

A hotel would be built by the taxpayers? 

12 minutes ago, zsnyder said:

A hotel would be built by the taxpayers? 

The question was why don't the wealthy connected people bring forth the plan to get the hotel built. My answer is why should they. Just as with stadiums, if the wealthy connected folks just sit around and wait, the taxpayers end up footing at least a significant portion of the bill.

See Paul brown Stadium for just one example.

1 hour ago, TheCOV said:

The question was why don't the wealthy connected people bring forth the plan to get the hotel built. My answer is why should they. Just as with stadiums, if the wealthy connected folks just sit around and wait, the taxpayers end up footing at least a significant portion of the bill.

See Paul brown Stadium for just one example.

Aware of the question. My question stands. Why would the taxpayers build a hotel and what precedent indicates to the wealthy that if they wait, this will happen.

The stadia are not a precedent here. 

 

I'd imagine if developers wait long enough for the demand for a new hotel becomes even higher, they can get a better deal with building. Such as TIF, the city paying for part of it, or giving up some ROW.. Or if you wait long enough, such as paul brown stadium, you can get a say in what goes on around the hotel.

 

That being said, there's a point, such as the world cup, where I feel you wouldn't be able to play the waiting game for too long since you'll miss the boat on the event. But I'm not a insanely wealthy developer or real estate tycoon, and they probably have a different mentality towards all this that makes them that wealthy.

Are there models out there where headquarter hotels (800-1000 rooms plus) are built by private developers in mid-sized large cities? (asking legitimately)

 

 

Columbus and Cleveland both built publicly-owned headquarters hotels. These seem like easy models to replicate. 

43 minutes ago, ink said:

Are there models out there where headquarter hotels (800-1000 rooms plus) are built by private developers in mid-sized large cities?

 

Not sure. The City of Indianapolis paid roughly 10% of the cost ($48 million out of total $450 million) of the Marriott Place project next to their convention center.

17 hours ago, zsnyder said:

Aware of the question. My question stands. Why would the taxpayers build a hotel and what precedent indicates to the wealthy that if they wait, this will happen.

 

 

There are numerous ways that the city/county/state governments end up covering the costs, so even if the citizens don't end up "paying the bill" for the project itself, they are still ultimately paying in various ways. A few of these methods include:

 

• Having the city/county pay for the "infrastructure" (all of the necessary street/sewer/water/electrical improvements, and perhaps even site prep work) — this was the approach used for the FC Cincinnati stadium so that they could technically say that the stadium itself was privately funded
• Inserting the city into the chain of title so that all of the property tax money can be paid into a special TIF fund and essentially go right back to the project area, taking away property tax revenue that would normally be paid into the city's general fund and used across all 52 neighborhoods — this is why the former Macy's office building was sold to the city before being sold to the developer who will redevelop it into apartments
• Having the Port own the project during the construction phase so that they can avoid paying sales tax on building materials

Please don't misinterpret this post as my saying that all of these methods are bad/evil, because I believe that they can be used for good, if the project in question is a net positive for the city/region. I am simply explaining that these are various ways that a "privately funded" project can still be partially funded by taxpayers.

Updated demo photo from morning walk.

3 hours ago, savadams13 said:

Updated demo photo from morning walk.

What are the chances that 84.51 tries to buy this plot to expand their building and we see the new hotel on the parking lot across the street from the convention center?

22 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

What are the chances that 84.51 tries to buy this plot to expand their building and we see the new hotel on the parking lot across the street from the convention center?

Close to Zero. The county just spent 50+ million for acquisition and demolition of this site. No realistic sale price for the land could come remotely close to making up that financial lost. Also the 84.51 building was designed for the garage portion to be converted to office space, so it would be much cheaper to do that and find/build parking elsewhere.

 

The only way such a transaction would make sense would be if it was for a new Kroger Headquarters (Kroger owns 84.51)

Edited November 24, 20213 yr by 646empire

1 hour ago, 646empire said:

Close to Zero. The county just spent 50+ million for acquisition and demolition of this site. No realistic sale price for the land could come remotely close to making up that financial lost. Also the 84.51 building was designed for the garage portion to be converted to office space, so it would be much cheaper to do that and find/build parking elsewhere.

 

The only way such a transaction would make sense would be if it was for a new Kroger Headquarters (Kroger owns 84.51)

Agree with you there. Id rather they take over there parking garage spaces make the building less dead, or become an expansion tenant at the proposed foundry tower next door. We can only hope though. I just hope the Port, CVB, City and County get there sh*t together on a new hotel project. 

Looks like 3CDC has pitched taking over the whole thing and the city is on board 

 

https://cincinnatioh.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=5379063&GUID=11AA4173-5BBC-41CC-9186-75311343CE9E&Options=ID|Text|&Search=

*galaxy brain idea* renovate the Terrace Plaza Hotel as part of this “convention center district” project 

3 hours ago, Pdrome513 said:

Looks like 3CDC has pitched taking over the whole thing and the city is on board 

 

https://cincinnatioh.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=5379063&GUID=11AA4173-5BBC-41CC-9186-75311343CE9E&Options=ID|Text|&Search=

best outcome ever.

15 hours ago, thebillshark said:

*galaxy brain idea* renovate the Terrace Plaza Hotel as part of this “convention center district” project 

I am afraid to know what the status or deterioration of the building has become now. I was inside every bit three years ago and it was bad on the guest room floors then. I cant imagine the roof has been properly patched to at least seal the building from moisture penetration. I want to see this building saved, but i think greed has killed this building...

On 1/13/2022 at 4:13 PM, Pdrome513 said:

Looks like 3CDC has pitched taking over the whole thing and the city is on board 

 

https://cincinnatioh.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=5379063&GUID=11AA4173-5BBC-41CC-9186-75311343CE9E&Options=ID|Text|&Search=

It’s about time. I can’t wait to get some finalized details. I hope they get a great hotel flag

I really hope 3CDC works with ODOT to narrow down the I-75 ramp spaghetti and get some land back for convention expansion and new developable land in that corner of downtown. It seems like such a no-brainer but the power's that be don't seen to be motivated, maybe getting a developer like 3CDC involved will help coalesce the ideas in the surrounding area into one vision. 

There is a group pushing for reducing the size and cost of the BSB project and going toward an alternative that reduces the size of the spaghetti junction. It's just a matter of whether this idea gains traction with the business community, local and state politicians, and ODOT/KTC.

At the very least, and it's admittedly an ugly option, build out over the interchange.

My concern at this point is that the pandemic and the fact that traffic levels never manifesting as they claimed MAY have meant a shift naturally towards a smaller scheme, but now that there's federal transportation money, it's going to be positioned as a "once in a lifetime opportunity" to "improve" (read: enlarge unnecessarily) an aging piece of infrastructure.

 

I really hope this movement gains traction. I'm still a firm believer that shifting the bridge and its approach westward and extending the Downtown grid is the best option for nearly everyone.

1 hour ago, jmicha said:

My concern at this point is that the pandemic and the fact that traffic levels never manifesting as they claimed MAY have meant a shift naturally towards a smaller scheme, but now that there's federal transportation money, it's going to be positioned as a "once in a lifetime opportunity" to "improve" (read: enlarge unnecessarily) an aging piece of infrastructure.

 

This is my fear as well. We already have a completed design for a new mega-bridge, which is essentially "shovel-ready", and the easiest path forward is to just build that.

 

I think one of the major blockers with the current plan is that it is so outrageously expensive it will require federal funding, state funding, and tolls. Kentucky remains completely opposed to tolls. So unless there is an avalanche of federal cash available for this project, it's going to have to be downsized so that the tolls can be eliminated in order for Kentucky to sign off on the project.

The bridge itself is only about 20% of the total cost ($600M out of $3B), so if we are spending the majority of the money on the ramps and approaches on both sides of the river, why not make it better and create usable/developable land. I mean it really seems like a no-brainer and my point was hoping that having developers, especially someone like 3CDC with all their connections to the local business community and decision makers on board with the convention center, it would help to push that idea further. 

 

https://www.bridge-forward.org/

 

The city has posted the 3CDC presentation which contains some more info

 

I could be reading it wrong, but at this point it does not look like a full-fledged convention center expansion is a priority for any of the parties. Rather, the emphasis would be on the hotel, the surrounding district, and a (comparatively modest) capital improvement program for the DECC. 

 

https://cincinnatioh.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=5386109&GUID=8C6D1E89-9EDF-424F-91F8-BBEADE1B7F23&Options=ID|Text|&Search=

 

 

Edited January 19, 20223 yr by Pdrome513

49 minutes ago, Pdrome513 said:

The city has posted the 3CDC presentation which contains some more info

 

I could be reading it wrong, but at this point it does not look like a full-fledged convention center expansion is a priority for any of the parties. Rather, the emphasis would be on the hotel, the surrounding district, and a (comparatively modest) capital improvement program for the DECC. 

 

https://cincinnatioh.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=5386109&GUID=8C6D1E89-9EDF-424F-91F8-BBEADE1B7F23&Options=ID|Text|&Search=

 

 

I hope these are bare minimums on the hotel. Only 600 rooms? up to 20k in ballroom space? This is going to be a once in a generational project for the area. 3CDC in this presentation is proposing the Chevy when the city needs the Cadillac...

I know the Hotel is the main focus, but if they are talking about a Convention Center district, hopefully they take down the two garages north of the Convention Center and replace them with something like what was built at 4th and Race.

16 hours ago, savadams13 said:

I hope these are bare minimums on the hotel. Only 600 rooms? up to 20k in ballroom space? This is going to be a once in a generational project for the area. 3CDC in this presentation is proposing the Chevy when the city needs the Cadillac...

600 rooms is about average. Same size as properties in Louisville and Cleveland. I’m hoping for 750/800 rooms. Let’s not forget this will come down to money (as always). 600 rooms is going to run about 300 Million which is not chump change. Also I’m sure they want to break ground asap. As mentioned before I’m more interested in the hotel flag and design, that’s what will make this a Chevy or Cadillac not really the size. My gut tells me 3CDC is going to really do this right. I think the city can get away with 600 rooms when looking at all the properties that have now come online downtown and are in planning.

36 minutes ago, JoeHarmon said:

I know the Hotel is the main focus, but if they are talking about a Convention Center district, hopefully they take down the two garages north of the Convention Center and replace them with something like what was built at 4th and Race.

 

With Pure Romance moving out of their current building, I wonder if there might be an appetite for redeveloping that entire block. I know the Pure Romance (former Delta) building is not that old, but it would really help liven up that side of downtown if there was some retail at street level.

I wonder where they would build the hotel? It looks like from the presentation they are looking at maybe the 5th and Plum Site and not necessarily the Millenium Hotel site, but maybe I am wrong... just reading through it.

 

I think the more rooms the better for sure, but how many were in the Millenium? Maybe what they are looking at is not only the hotel but the surrounding area needs to vastly improve to get it up to date, which means they start off at 600 while improving the whole area, then another 7 years down the line they add an additional hotel to bolster it. 

 

That said the potential is huge for Cincinnati. You go to Kansas City which I have a few times and the area is really nice. If we can improve the area they should be able to pull a lot of good conventions in and that hotel will help with everything downtown as well.

26 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

I wonder where they would build the hotel? It looks like from the presentation they are looking at maybe the 5th and Plum Site and not necessarily the Millenium Hotel site, but maybe I am wrong... just reading through it.

 

I think the more rooms the better for sure, but how many were in the Millenium? Maybe what they are looking at is not only the hotel but the surrounding area needs to vastly improve to get it up to date, which means they start off at 600 while improving the whole area, then another 7 years down the line they add an additional hotel to bolster it. 

 

That said the potential is huge for Cincinnati. You go to Kansas City which I have a few times and the area is really nice. If we can improve the area they should be able to pull a lot of good conventions in and that hotel will help with everything downtown as well.

I suspect the Millennium Hotel site will remain vacant for many years. I doubt this hotel will be built on that site. To answer your question tho the old hotel was around 900 rooms between both towers.

I wonder if they could move the ice skating from Fountain Square to either temporary space in this convention center district or into some kind of permanent outdoor space for the convention center. (The packet included some images of other convention centers’ outdoor space)
 

then put some kind of Christmas market or something on the Fountain Square to activate it in wintertime.  Nothing against the rink in general, but the way they construct the rink now totally blocks off Fountain Square from the street with big barricades. They also may be able to do something bigger and better in a different location 

Would be a good activation for future "parks" on caps for FWW 

 

*ducks

10 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Would be a good activation for future "parks" on caps for FWW 

 

*ducks

Speaking of the caps, I’ve had the thought that the FWW caps could be the site of a series of exhibition halls administered by the convention center, but the convention center seems to require a contiguous expansion. 

Regarding 3CDC, why did it take them until now to do this. Why not last year when they were tearing down the hotel. They could have been letting 3CDC get their plan in place a year earlier. Seems like a lot of time was wasted in this step?

The new convention center hotel was 3CDC's project before the Port stole it from them. By handing it back to 3CDC the city is admitting that the Port was unable to get the job done.

Why is the port so incompetent? Was it always this way? 3cdc is the most reliable and competent developer in this city and in glad that it appears they are taking the reigns. 

The Port has been successful with a lot of projects but revitalizing and energizing urban spaces is more of 3CDC's thing, and it makes more sense for them to run this project.

600 rooms is about average. Same size as properties in Louisville and Cleveland. I’m hoping for 750/800 rooms. Let’s not forget this will come down to money (as always). 600 rooms is going to run about 300 Million which is not chump change. Also I’m sure they want to break ground asap. As mentioned before I’m more interested in the hotel flag and design, that’s what will make this a Chevy or Cadillac not really the size. My gut tells me 3CDC is going to really do this right. I think the city can get away with 600 rooms when looking at all the properties that have now come online downtown and are in planning.

I think it will be 800+; reading that report there was demand of 600 additional rooms in 2019 while the millennium(900 rooms) was still in service. I don't think it will be 1,500 but the demand push it larger than the previous building.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Interesting article, it sounds like 3CDC will not be building/developing the hotel itself but instead act as a master planner of the entire area? 

https://www.wvxu.org/politics/2022-01-20/convention-center-district-could-be-coming-to-cincinnati?_amp=true

 

also…..

 

"Let me underscore the importance of the hotel," Berding said. "Without it, it will be nearly impossible for us to host the 2026 FIFA World Cup. And that is the single biggest tourism event in the history of our city."

 

The United States is jointly hosting the 2026 World Cup with Canada and Mexico. Cincinnati is one of 17 cities vying for 10 U.S. spots.

Berding says they can submit information to FIFA officials until Jan. 31, and he hopes to have the resolution finalized by then so it can be included.

Full council is expected to vote on the resolution next week. County commissioners are expected to pass a similar resolution soon.

You can watch Jeff Berding (in his capacity leading Cincinnati's push to be a host city for the 2026 World Cup) and Steve Leeper's presentation to the Equitable Development & Housing Committee, starting at 1:08:30: https://archive.org/details/18220119-egh

19 minutes ago, 646empire said:

"Let me underscore the importance of the hotel," Berding said. "Without it, it will be nearly impossible for us to host the 2026 FIFA World Cup. And that is the single biggest tourism event in the history of our city."

I know Berding has been known to make things seem more urgent and important than they may actually be, both dating back to Paul Brown Stadium and recently with FCC's stadium, but I do think a new major flagship hotel would certainly help to get the World Cup.

 

EDIT: And I'm not against creating a deadline, whether it's real or not, having a target date is much better than letting the millennium site sit vacant for years. 

Edited January 21, 20223 yr by ucgrady

Berding said that FIFA will be picking the host cities "by the end of the first quarter of this year". So we'll know pretty soon whether or not Cincinnati will be a host city. 

I would say that Cincy would have to have a new convention center hotel ready by the World Cup in Summer 2026 in order to host any games. I don't see any way we get it without that commitment, honestly. That's a lot of rooms.

I hope we get the World Cup games, and I hope that announcement creates the impetus for a new hotel. However, and this is coming from a place of complete ignorance, but let's say 3/4 of the people in a full Paul Brown stadium are from out of town. That's 49,000 people, obviously a new 900 room hotel would help but it's not like there are enough rooms in downtown to hold 49,000 people anyway so I just don't see how one hotel creates a make or break situation.

33 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I hope we get the World Cup games, and I hope that announcement creates the impetus for a new hotel. However, and this is coming from a place of complete ignorance, but let's say 3/4 of the people in a full Paul Brown stadium are from out of town. That's 49,000 people, obviously a new 900 room hotel would help but it's not like there are enough rooms in downtown to hold 49,000 people anyway so I just don't see how one hotel creates a make or break situation.

 

A 900 room hotel will probably host 1500+ people (I admittedly don't know the typical person/room count for this situation). It would be one of the closest hotels to the stadium. That's a lot of people that would otherwise have to book rooms in the suburbs and drive in or take a shuttle from a park and ride or something. Logistically that's a huge difference IMO.

46 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I hope we get the World Cup games, and I hope that announcement creates the impetus for a new hotel. However, and this is coming from a place of complete ignorance, but let's say 3/4 of the people in a full Paul Brown stadium are from out of town. That's 49,000 people, obviously a new 900 room hotel would help but it's not like there are enough rooms in downtown to hold 49,000 people anyway so I just don't see how one hotel creates a make or break situation.

What’s also important to big event planners such as FIFA is having a large up to date hotel adjacent to a convention center that can host lots of VIPs, media, teams etc all on one site. Planners don’t like when they have to split delegations amongst too many properties. Right now the Hilton is too small tho beautiful but outdated and the Hyatt is way too small and in average condition at best. So at this moment Cincinnati would have split the FIFA VIPs up at many different hotel properties. We need to be able to consolidate. As a side note I’ve been hearing recently that The Westin is also in need of a revamp. Cincys big hotels are in need of investments while the smaller properties are really nice downtown. If Cincy wins this bid you better believe all these hotels will see renovations tho.

Edited January 21, 20223 yr by 646empire

That makes a lot of sense, I know when NFL/MLB teams come into town they tend to stay in the Westin but that's one team and not a whole damn national delegation so I can see how getting all the FIFA representatives and the participants themselves under one roof is a priority. Didn't think of that aspect. 

Interesting quotes from Leeper's presentation:

• "We have plenty of land down there, much more than we need just to house a convention center hotel. So we need to think boldly about that."
• "I will tell you that the condition of the Duke Energy Center is... uh... not great. It is twenty years old and I'll say that's about as nice a point as I can make, both from an interior, exterior, from an aesthetics point of view, from a technology point of view. We are behind the eight ball."
• "Surrounding lack of amenities is a challenge."
• "We need to all think about the costs/benefits, if it makes sense at all, either short-term or long-term, whether or not we expand the convention center. With the work the Port and County did, we have options. One of the obvious options is to expand the convention center eastward where you'd have contiguous exhibit space. But in the meantime, because the significant cost of that effort, do we try to do something in the interim on that site that complements the existing Convention Center and allows us to have a vibrant, maybe programmed area that can bring some excitment to that part of the CBD.
• Regarding the 2019 study (when Millenium was still operational): "Is there a market for a convention center hotel if the Millenium stays, and is there one if it goes? What are the sizes of those hotels? The study came back and because we still had the Millenium in play, we focused on the answer that said yeah, even with the Millenium in play, we believe there's a market for at least 600 rooms."
• "As part of whatever deal we cut... we need to make sure the Convention and Visitors Bureau is protected in a way ... that we have the ability to reserve rooms in blocks that have preferential rates. We need to real smart about that as we get into this and discuss it further with any developer. ... We need Julie (Calvert, President of CVB) to be able to use that as an incentive. Now what is the proper mix of restriction versus subsidy? That's an algebraic equation we're going to have to work on with this council, and the County, and everybody else that has a say in this." 
• Regarding the challenge of having numerous stakeholders: "The good news here is I think ... for the first time we really do both have the staff and the elected officals on the same page that we've got to do something here. ... As long as we come up with a plan that's not mediocre, that really reaches high, and is done so in a timely fashion, then I think we can manage that. 
• Immediate priorities (to be pursued in parallel):
  • pursue developer for hotel
  • evaluate capital improvements to existing DECC
  • mixed-use development around DECC
  • Interim use for Millenium site, if necessary, while preserving ability to expand DECC in the future
  • Commitment to economic inclusion (hiring women- and minority-owned contractors)

Demolition update, down to the last couple floors of the Millennium/ Stouffer's Inn

If you can tolerate the infighting (good lord) Tuesday's presentation to the HamCo BoC is worth watching. This link is timestamped for when they start talking about it. Takeaways:

 

 

-There's Jan. 31 deadline to signal to Fifa a commitment to build a new hotel;

-The Plum Street site south of the DECC is the overwhelming favorite for the new hotel;

-That site may or may not require acquisition of the 5th St. garage, which is privately owned (and had an air lot created above it for an unspecified purpose a few years ago, if memory serves..); 

-The Millennium site will remain vacant as a programmable space with the idea that an eventual DECC expansion would cross Elm Street, but that feels more than a decade off; and

-Alicia Reece needs.to.calm.down. 

 

 

Edited January 25, 20223 yr by Pdrome513

I'm hoping we can move forward with the new hotel south of the Convention Center and the expansion itself gets tabled; then, simultaneously, the new BSB moves forward, and by the time the Convention Center is ready to expand a decade from now, they're able to expand west like they previously wanted.