... there are plenty of malls doing fine, just that each metro area can support fewer malls than in the past and the losers lose big. In Cleveland Beachwood and Crocker Park are good, in Columbus you have Tuttle, Polaris, and Easton all are fine,

 

True, but taestell's original statement was

 

It's hard to find malls built in the 60s, 70s, or 80s that are still open and still have their original architecture.

 

(Emphasis added.)  Tuttle, Polaris, and Easton are all newer than that.

 

Yeah, I'm talking about this from a "I want to explore dead malls" perspective, haha. There are plenty of Ohio malls (and faux urban shopping centers) that are doing OK.

Tri-County looks like it's in real danger of closing.  It is anchored only by a Sears and Macy's, both of which are in decline.  I went there in December a week before Christmas and the place was deserted. 

 

Tri-County Mall has already started the conversion process into a strip mall. They started building out new strip mall buildings in their parking lot and stores that used to be in the mall have started moving to those new buildings.

 

It was a really awful idea to have three shopping malls in the northwestern burbs of Cincinnati (Forest Fair, Tri-County, and Northgate). If Tri-County was the only one and the other two never existed, it might be doing okay.

 

 

And little Northgate came out the winner.

^Crocker Park is not a mall.

 

Yes it is LOL. Sure it's not the 60's-90's version, and is called a "Lifestyle Center", but come on. It's still a shopping centered anchored by large format retailers with some residential on its own isolated property.

 

Lifestyle center is just a real estate term meant to make people think they are getting something new, when all they are getting is a repackaged mall.

 

In the Cleveland area most of the malls in the stable middle class areas are doing fine. That includes the two mentioned above as well as the three others in the area. So we are down to five or six, when as late as 2001 we had around 10 malls.

In Ohio you need both enclosed and open-air in your portfolio since one does really well when the weather is crappy and the other does well when it's nice.

^Crocker Park is not a mall.

 

Yes it is LOL. Sure it's not the 60's-90's version, and is called a "Lifestyle Center", but come on. It's still a shopping centered anchored by large format retailers with some residential on its own isolated property.

 

Lifestyle center is just a real estate term meant to make people think they are getting something new, when all they are getting is a repackaged mall.

 

In the Cleveland area most of the malls in the stable middle class areas are doing fine. That includes the two mentioned above as well as the three others in the area. So we are down to five or six, when as late as 2001 we had around 10 malls.

 

I almost didn't put Crocker, but I don't know anything about the other west side malls so I couldn't comment on them lol. Is Great Northern still going or is South Park the main one? I heard Parmatown is like the West Side version of Richmond. Never been to any of them except Crocker so that's why I put it. I recognize that even if it's a mall, it's not the type of mall that's going "dead."

Summit Mall seems to be still going reasonably well with largely its original floorplan.  But I get that that certainly might be an endangered species considering all the other Summit County malls that have closed since the 1980s (and Chapel Hill is certainly struggling and probably in an unrecoverable downward spiral).

 

Sorry you never got to experience Quaker Square mall. It was once quite awesome, especially at Christmas.

I think I got to experience it as ... well, as the topic of this thread.

Summit Mall seems to be still going reasonably well with largely its original floorplan.  But I get that that certainly might be an endangered species considering all the other Summit County malls that have closed since the 1980s (and Chapel Hill is certainly struggling and probably in an unrecoverable downward spiral).

 

Sorry you never got to experience Quaker Square mall. It was once quite awesome, especially at Christmas.

 

Wait, was there a mall there?  I was only at Quaker Square once years ago and only remember a hotel.  Did I miss something?

In Ohio you need both enclosed and open-air in your portfolio since one does really well when the weather is crappy and the other does well when it's nice.

 

I'm not so sure about that.  In most open-air centers you can park close to the door of your destination store.

 

It speaks volumes that Randall Park Mall was supposed to put Southgate out of business but it's the latter that is still a going concern, albeit on a smaller scale.

^Crocker Park is not a mall.

 

Yes it is LOL. Sure it's not the 60's-90's version, and is called a "Lifestyle Center", but come on. It's still a shopping centered anchored by large format retailers with some residential on its own isolated property.

 

Lifestyle center is just a real estate term meant to make people think they are getting something new, when all they are getting is a repackaged mall.

 

In the Cleveland area most of the malls in the stable middle class areas are doing fine. That includes the two mentioned above as well as the three others in the area. So we are down to five or six, when as late as 2001 we had around 10 malls.

 

I almost didn't put Crocker, but I don't know anything about the other west side malls so I couldn't comment on them lol. Is Great Northern still going or is South Park the main one? I heard Parmatown is like the West Side version of Richmond. Never been to any of them except Crocker so that's why I put it. I recognize that even if it's a mall, it's not the type of mall that's going "dead."

 

Great Northern is still popular and doing fine as a "regular" mall - and the strip centers around it do very well. though Southpark always seems the liveliest of local malls (but sometimes more in a teens hanging out kind of way).  Parmatown has actually been remade into a surprisingly nice, new strip center - with big box anchors and on the perimeter restaurants like Mission BBQ (which I drive 40 minutes to enjoy...) and Piada.  It is now NOTHING like the disaster that is the Richmond mall.  (A decade+ or so ago, Westgate mall was dead and remade into an even nicer grouping of strip retail buildings... a poor man's Crocker)

Summit Mall seems to be still going reasonably well with largely its original floorplan.  But I get that that certainly might be an endangered species considering all the other Summit County malls that have closed since the 1980s (and Chapel Hill is certainly struggling and probably in an unrecoverable downward spiral).

 

Sorry you never got to experience Quaker Square mall. It was once quite awesome, especially at Christmas.

 

Wait, was there a mall there?  I was only at Quaker Square once years ago and only remember a hotel.  Did I miss something?

 

When the hotel was a Hilton the mall was thriving. It had a lot of specialty shops along with several unique bars and restaurants. During the holiday season they would go all out with vintage decorations, choirs and musicians. Then like a flash, it was gone. It went from vibrant to barely clinging to life in a matter of months.

 

Unfortunately a quick Google search isn't showing anything to provide evidence. The early 90's is sort of like the "dark ages" in some ways...more people need to get busy with their scanners lol.

Summit Mall seems to be still going reasonably well with largely its original floorplan.  But I get that that certainly might be an endangered species considering all the other Summit County malls that have closed since the 1980s (and Chapel Hill is certainly struggling and probably in an unrecoverable downward spiral).

 

Sorry you never got to experience Quaker Square mall. It was once quite awesome, especially at Christmas.

 

Wait, was there a mall there?  I was only at Quaker Square once years ago and only remember a hotel.  Did I miss something?

 

There was a grouping of small shops on multiple floors of the old Quaker Square building -  loosely a mall - with a nice restaurant in the basement level - as I recall. The Quaker Hilton was there with rooms in the old silos (or whatever the cylindrical storage areas were) - though I believe those are now dorms(?)  or apartments...?

There was a grouping of small shops on multiple floors of the old Quaker Square building -  loosely a mall - with a nice restaurant in the basement level - as I recall. The Quaker Hilton was there with rooms in the old silos (or whatever the cylindrical storage areas were) - though I believe those are now dorms(?)  or apartments...?

 

Dorms:

 

In Ohio you need both enclosed and open-air in your portfolio since one does really well when the weather is crappy and the other does well when it's nice.

 

I'm not so sure about that.  In most open-air centers you can park close to the door of your destination store.

 

 

That's fine if you are the destination store, but if you are the other stores that the person isn't familiar with it doesn't help. We want people walking slowly and looking around, not driving.

I don't use my phone's maps much, and my car doesn't have a link.  But I recently rented a car that automatically linked my phone, and noticed that various retailers show up unannounced on the car's screen.  This sort of thing has to be hurting the value of malls and even higher-value corner locations.  If a business that used to need premier visibility doesn't need it anymore then the value of retail nodes doesn't even matter so much.  Set up in an obscure strip mall (or even around back in those old strip malls with rear stores or a basement) and you're fine. 

Not until every car and phone has had that for 15 years and everybody knows how to use it and uses it constantly.

I don't use my phone's maps much, and my car doesn't have a link.  But I recently rented a car that automatically linked my phone, and noticed that various retailers show up unannounced on the car's screen.  This sort of thing has to be hurting the value of malls and even higher-value corner locations.  If a business that used to need premier visibility doesn't need it anymore then the value of retail nodes doesn't even matter so much.  Set up in an obscure strip mall (or even around back in those old strip malls with rear stores or a basement) and you're fine. 

 

I was about to say exactly that to the post above.  Depending on what you sell, walk-by visibility in the internet age is overrated.

I found out today that GameStop in one of our malls is closing. Sales were fine at the location, but they and the mall got locked into a rent dispute. The mall is also doing pretty well for having lost Sears, but Sears wasn't really that important taken to the bare walls as they all are today. We shall see if being the only video game store in the mall is good for business or if we lose too many crossover customers. If interest in games in the mall drops too much due to GameStop's absence within a year or two I might be looking for something else to do with my life. 40 isn't a bad age to be seeking a major change to something more stable.

I found out today that GameStop in one of our malls is closing. Sales were fine at the location, but they and the mall got locked into a rent dispute. The mall is also doing pretty well for having lost Sears, but Sears wasn't really that important taken to the bare walls as they all are today. We shall see if being the only video game store in the mall is good for business or if we lose too many crossover customers. If interest in games in the mall drops too much due to GameStop's absence within a year or two I might be looking for something else to do with my life. 40 isn't a bad age to be seeking a major change to something more stable.

 

Surprise! Despite large signs posted all over the store a couple weeks ago saying that they were closing they have decided to stay. Much in the same way ESPN drags the customers into contract disputes by getting blacked out by DirecTV for a few days, GameStop has decided not to leave the mall. I bet they got what they wanted.

Video of Euclid Square Mall's  destruction

 

Of of my favorite photographers, Tag Christof, has a print of Euclid Square Mall's exterior pre-demolition available.

First the shopping mall, now the strip shopping center......

 

 

Even if the mall isn't dead, repurposing/diversifying/densifying the surrounding land can offer benefits of urbanity in suburban settings.....

 

 

Tale of two malls: One of the malls where my stores are located is near a larger Ohio city whereas the other is in a small city. The one near the larger city is located far away from significant residential while the one in the smaller town is much closer to the people. This has made the larger mall much less necessary to the modern local overall economy than the small town one. Lots of young people walk or take the 20 passenger bus to the smaller mall every day.

7 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

Tale of two malls: One of the malls where my stores are located is near a larger Ohio city whereas the other is in a small city. The one near the larger city is located far away from significant residential while the one in the smaller town is much closer to the people. This has made the larger mall much less necessary to the modern local overall economy than the small town one. Lots of young people walk or take the 20 passenger bus to the smaller mall every day.

 

Smaller towns away from large MSAs also tend to be more culturally uniform.   Is this one?

 

Culture clash has been a big factor in the decline of enclosed malls.

There has been little culture clash at the larger mall as well.

FWIW, online retailer Wayfair is sinking into the abyss.  They only have one brick-and-mortar store near Boston and an online returns outlet store in Florence, KY.  

This dead strip mall in Newport...

 

 

...is turning into this!

 

Here's a great 3-part series on the malls of Cincinnati. 

 

 

2 hours ago, jjakucyk said:

Here's a great 3-part series on the malls of Cincinnati.

 

 

The camerawork is...weird.  Why are we spinning at 9:48?  The narrator is the opposite of a morning shock jock.

 

 

I confess that I watched all three. 

 

They missed Gold Circle Mall on Colerain Ave. 

 

I remember going to Markets International once when I was a kid.  It was packed, but pretty hokey, like the Opryland Hotel. 

 

Tower Place was not vacant "by the turn of the century".  It and the Carew Tower atrium + skywalk stores were still going full-throttle until about 2005. 

 

 

It's not just Tower City. Granted, the first level of Washington Union Station is still pretty full but this level was full four years ago. Not anymore. Can we blame this on COVID? General trend away from brick-and-mortar retailing? But why are railroad stations in Europe and the Pacific Rim still doubling as busy shopping centers?

 

 

7 hours ago, KJP said:

But why are railroad stations in Europe and the Pacific Rim still doubling as busy shopping centers?

 

I would think it is because the majority of travel is still done by train in Europe. The US, even in DC is still super car focused and I would guess work from home is also a reason. 

Decline of run of the mill, 70's style shopping malls:

 1.  Hollowing out of the "middle class," shifting much shopping to outlets, big box, low end and high end stores.

 2.  Rise of outdoor lifestyle centers, and the time limited attraction to the "latest new trend/fad"

 3.  Indoor mall safety concerns

 4.  Rise of online shopping and changes in younger generation shopping and social habits.  Remember that malls were also social hangouts.  

 5.  Consolidation, closures, and homogenation of traditional department stores that anchored malls.

 

The Cleveland region had 11 traditional suburban malls and is down to 4.  (Westgate, Parmatown, Midway, Severance, Richmond, Randall, and Euclid are defunct;  Great Lakes, Beachwood, Great Northern, and Strongsville remain).

 

As for Tower City's decline, (it had been a destination experience when new):

 1.  The newness wore off, and suburbanites had other more accessible shopping options near their homes.

 2.  Higher end stores pulled out making the Avenue less unique

 3.  Perceived safety issues deterred would be visitors

 4.  The Casino did squat to generate shoppers

 5.   Downtown residency was just getting going, although the store mix might have declined to the point where there was little reason for downtown residents to go there.

 6.   Rail and bus commuters were not "lingering."  They could shop where they lived and not have to lug items home.

 7.   The movie complex closed.

 

Not sure how or how much the presence of (daylight hour) inter-city and commuter rail would impact The Avenue, or, in other words, what affect the additional people passing through would have on the stores.  Some malls have added non-shopping attractions to bring people in.

 

LOL, I believe the above is sufficient beating of that dead horse.

 

 

On 6/4/2023 at 7:34 AM, VintageLife said:

I would think it is because the majority of travel is still done by train in Europe. The US, even in DC is still super car focused and I would guess work from home is also a reason. 

 

16 percent of travel between European cities is by train.

 

Guess what? When we visit, 17 percent of Americans travel by train. Offer good train service and dense, rail-supportive land uses and guess what happens.

The primary reason indoor malls declined with respect to outdoor shopping centers is they could not control loitering gracefully.   Online shopping and the virus hit both indoor and outdoor about equally, but outdoor has survived better than indoor.

 

The classic NE Ohio example:  Randall Mall is gone, Southgate has survived on a limited basis.  The former was supposed to entirely supplant the latter.

Edited June 7, 20232 yr by E Rocc

1 hour ago, E Rocc said:

The primary reason indoor malls declined with respect to outdoor shopping centers is they could not control loitering gracefully.   Online shopping and the virus hit both indoor and outdoor about equally, but outdoor has survived better than indoor.

 

The classic NE Ohio example:  Randall Mall is gone, Southgate has survived on a limited basis.  The former was supposed to entirely supplant the latter.

LOL.  I don't think it's that simple.  But of course, mall owners -- please gracefully control loitering around your stores. 

 

I think urb-a-saurus had it right, it is just one of several factors -- "loitering" by young people perceived as a safety concern:

Quote

1.  Hollowing out of the "middle class," shifting much shopping to outlets, big box, low end and high end stores.

 2.  Rise of outdoor lifestyle centers, and the time limited attraction to the "latest new trend/fad"

 3.  Indoor mall safety concerns

 4.  Rise of online shopping and changes in younger generation shopping and social habits.  Remember that malls were also social hangouts.  

 5.  Consolidation, closures, and homogenation of traditional department stores that anchored malls.

I think #2 will suffer just as much as indoor malls as their newness and trendiness falls off over time.  And the construction of the next-big-thing at the next interchange...