Posted July 22, 200717 yr Got into a discussion the other night about which side of the river: Has the most buzz, Has the most potential, Does development right, Uses tax incentives/revenues more efficiently What got it all started was the remark that "NoKY gives everything away..." in relation to residential, commercial and entertainment developments. What are your insights? Does NoKY give things away...How does NoKY's leadership (business and gov't) approach differ from CIN? Is one better? What makes one worse? What are some good wins or losses for each? Post: I am all for regionalism but wish to suspend it for this discussion. Look at the two as competitors.
July 22, 200717 yr buzz- nky potential- cin does development right- neither taxes/revenues most efficiently- first to build streetcar wins
July 22, 200717 yr NOKY isn't what it is without Cincinnati, therefore can it even be compared if it is so reliant on the other?
July 23, 200717 yr I think Northern Kentucky has a lot more area to expand and develop (or atleast do so with the least effort and cost involved) but Id love to see Cincinnati step it up, get rolling on The Banks project and make downtown more friendly to consumers.
July 23, 200717 yr Is it a race? Did you read the post or just the title? I should clarify though - I want everyone to consider them separately and give analysis on which one has a better model for attracting development. Maybe this is a dumb question??? For Cincy-Rise: As a NoKYian, I can't remember the last time I relied on Cincy for anything. I know I am being rhetorical but what is it that NoKy relies on? Other than that beautiful view of the skyline. For thomasbw: Actually, first with casinos wins ;)
July 23, 200717 yr I'd assert that you've depended on Cincinnati for nearly everything you've done in NoKY - restaurants are open because Cincinnatians make up a large proportion of their clientele; businesses cater to Cincinnatians; or businesses cater to Kentuckians who are able to pay for services and products because their paycheck comes from a Cincinnati company, or from a company that itself relies on Cincinnatians for part of its revenue; etc., etc., etc. This isn't to diss NoKY - I'll take this further than many other forumers, I'm sure, but I don't think Cincinnati would be anywhere near as great a place as it is without NoKY - but to assert that you haven't relied on Cincinnati for anything is really pretty short-sighted, isn't it? Now, I don't think it's a dumb question - I mean, there's development, and some of it is in one jurisdiction, and some is in another, and one is probably doing a better job of incubating it than the other - but if the question is approached with the idea that there need not be inter-dependency, I can't imagine the discussion being the least bit fruitful.
July 23, 200717 yr We're going to have some gang warfare on here next. NKY vs. Nati! I think NKY is doing a better job on a timeline. It certainly doesn't take them as long to get things rolling. I can understand that Cincinnati is bigger and has to play by a tougher set of rules though (the Banks...). Even as far as potential goes, I'll give NKY a pretty high ranking. Newport and Covington have loads of beautiful old buildings just waiting to be rehabbed. Until recently I hadn't been too deep down into the two. It's been a mindblower for sure. Cincinnati has more buzz. How couldn't it? Especially recently as new clubs and restaurants have been opening downtown with lines going out the doors. The new Fountain Square is a hit as well. I love that they're playing movies on the huge screen on Saturday nights. There's good and bad development in each. The Banks will crush Ovation in looks though. I guess I have no clear "winner" here... They both go pretty hand-in-hand.
July 23, 200717 yr What Riverviewer said ... Look at it like this, Newport and Covington are going through what Cincinnati did in the mid 1800's. So, there really is no comparison. I think NOKY'ers try to view Cincinnati as downtown and nothing more. We are made up of 52 neighborhoods and have major development going on right now, not planned, but right now in Mt. Adams, Walnut Hills, East Walnut Hills, Clifton, Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, West End (hell, the West End probably has more development going on in the past 24 months then Newport and Covington combined), etc ... Another way to look at it is, Western Hills has almost the same amount of people as Covington and Newport combine, so this really puts things into perspective.
July 24, 200717 yr I'd say the Nky without a doubt has more buzz, but whether that buzz is warranted is another question. Newport has essentially leveraged their future on NOTL...which to many people's dismay isn't doing as peachy as it's made out to be. The TIF's used to finance the project aren't meeting the projected returns and the city is hurting from it as a result. They got a little to rosey with their projection model, because they just wanted to build the thing without actually thinking it through. The rest of Newport is the result of 'business poaching' and whether you think that's a good/sustainable economic growth model is up to you. I personally don't think so. The businesses at NOTL have no strong affiliation with Newport and could easily pack up and go as soon as the grass appears greener somewhere else (cough...The Banks...cough). What the hell would be the point to go to GameWorks at NOTL if there is an ESPN Zone at The Banks?? The movie theatres right now are the cash cows for NOTL...what if theatres open up at The Banks or Fifth and Race...who the hell is going to drive further to go to Newport when there is CLEARLY more to do with a better atmosphere in Cincinnati. Right now Newport simply capitalizes off of what others are lacking...they have not/and are not working to create a product that truly sells Newport. Sure The Banks isn't built yet, but surely you can understand my points that if/when The Banks is built...what happens to NOTL. Covington seems to be doing it's own thing (which is good). They're growing their existing businesses, doing lots of renovations, and adding many new residents to the center city. But with that said, they are hurt by the IRS and the western edge of Covington's riverfront. They don't have the land right now to redevelop that Cincinnati and Newport are progressing on. But they continue to plod along at their own game and are successful at that...kudos to Covington, and thanks for actually adding something to the center city (not just poaching it). Don't believe me...Newport Aquarium, Haufbrauhaus, Jefferson Hall are all places that Newport lured from Cincy (oh and don't forget about Newport trying to snag the potential USS Cincinnati Submarine Museum from Cincy). Now Cincinnati...Cincinnati has done/is continuing to do HUGE amounts of rehab/renovation projects within the CBD and OTR, they have the streetcar system lurking, the Central Riverfront Park will soon be underway, new construction is popping up (The Edge, One River Plaza, Parker Flats, potentially Fifth & Race), oh and don't forget about that silver bullet called The Banks. On top of all that, the Fountain Square rehab has completely rejuvenated that area of downtown and new clubs, bars, restaurants and retailers are filling in everywhere in the surrounding blocks of Fountain Square. Personally I think Cincinnati has the edge, but some might say I'm biased. I just think that the residents moving into the center city on the Ohio side are more so new to the region than the KY side. The new businesses (restaurants, clubs, bars, etc) that have opened up are also new/unique to the region...whereas the Nky one seem to be recycled products that simply switched sides of the river. On top of all this, Cincinnati is seeing it's major corporate players growing their presence and prowess downtown...and potentially have a new HQ in the region with the rumors surrounding QCS II. These things aren't necessarily as sexy as a movie theatre or beer garden, but economically speaking they are much more important and make for a more economically sustainable future.
July 24, 200717 yr An easy question to ask yourself is this ... Have you ever seen 471, or 75 NB at 7-9:00 a.m.? Most NOKY'ers rely on employment from Cincinnati. This affects jobs, cost of living, lifestyles, home prices, recreational activities, etc ... Most cities the size of Newport & Covington combined have nothing more than a mall, a park or two, and maybe one or two movie theaters. You would see no $1.5 or $3 million dollar condos (actually a $300K home would seem very steep) ... they couldn't afford it if it weren't for Cincinnati and it's economic impact. I know what's it's like to live in a city the size of Newport and Covington combined, they are missing a lot of what other large metros do get to enjoy.
July 24, 200717 yr Paul Tenkotte at NKU and Thomas More is the expert on the historical development of NKY. The challenge for NKY is that its engine of growth is on the far west side (the airport) but its urban areas basically hug the river. Newport had to come up with something to specialize in once it lost its sin city business. Besides the silly north/south stuff, there is a lot more potential in Covington and to a lesser extent Newport for the continued expansion of an urban conclave. The old housing in NKY is often cheaper and more accessible to a YP starting out than a brand-new condo in the CBD or Mt. Adams. It has all the wonderful potential that old housing provides. It is also often closer to downtown than nearly all the city 'burbs. One other key is that NKY has its own (much smaller) community that has seen quite a bit of growth and success over the last 3 or 4 generations, which has a greater commitment to the area than Cincinnati seems to be producing amongst its young.
July 24, 200717 yr >Most NOKY'ers rely on employment from Cincinnati. This affects jobs, cost of living, lifestyles, home prices, recreational activities, etc ... Well no doubt the number of people living in Kentucky who work in Ohio far outweighs the opposite. The problem is that with little easily developed land in the Cincinnati city limits so much of the job growth in Hamilton County has been at the latitude of Blue Ash or further north into Butler County meaning lots of people in NK aren't just driving across the bridge, they're driving 15-20 miles north of the river. Ten years ago I worked in a warehouse off of Mosteller Rd. and there were people who drove up all the way from Erlanger and Florence to make $8/hr and no doubt that's happening even more despite higher gas prices due to the development around Union Center Boulevard. The whole Cincinnati region has relatively little flat land that is off a flood plain, the only kind of land suitable for modern warehousing and manufacturing. 100 years ago multi-floor factories and warehouses were commonplace but primarily due to the invention of the forklift such activities are much more efficient in single-floor designs. It's standard across the country for warehouses to have four rack tiers which can hold entire 4x4x4 skids of product. What this means is for a warehouse to have a second floor the second floor would have to be 30ft. above the ground floor instead of 12 or so like how old warehouses were built. Look on aerial photos and you will see that all of the new warehouses being built in the country have a lot of space around them to expand. This is totally the opposite of the warehousing of the past, where companies often had to rent warehouse space dotted around the city. The company my grandfather worked for during most of his life in Camp Washington also had warehouse space down around 4th and 5th where the C&O viaduct is and up near Spring Grove cemetery. Obviously having trucks roving around every day taking materials back and forth is pretty inefficient compared to simply having things under one roof. Also before I-75 the traffic in Camp Washington and surrounding areas was apparently horrific because trucks were always loading and unloading right in the middle of the street. And even though some of those old warehouses are very imposing, their total square footage is pretty low compared to many new steel buildings along the nation's loop highways. As a result most recent warehousing and manufacturing development has either occurred around the airport and Florence or north of the General Electric plant. Office space is another matter though. Obviously most warehouses and manufacturing companies will have offices adjacent to their warehouse. However there's no excuse for the endless suburban office parks which could have been built in a much more efficient way in a traditional city context.
July 25, 200717 yr Dead on. I worked for ThomsonLearning for a while and they have a massive warehouse/distribution center at Mt. Zion road. They used to be up on Empire Drive in Florence and in Oakley at Southwestern Publishing hq. The new place on Toebben Drive is gigantic and flat since it acts as the warehouse, distribution center and does some cross-decking too. There is a bunch of other massive buildings. That will never be in the core (nor do we really want them there) however that means that the low wage jobs will be further out. And thus the Europeanification of American cities continues apace.
July 25, 200717 yr I don't think I've ever gotten off the highway at Mt. Zion but I am sympathetic to what must have been a ridiculously long and irritating drive. I think the big, big difference between the predicament of U.S. cities versus Europeans cities is that the population and economic activity in American cities has generally doubled or more in most of the top 20-30 American cities whereas few European cities have experienced that kind of growth. As a result there simply isn't as much suburban warehousing and manufacturing going on in Europe and that makes running buses out to their complexes more reasonable simply because the distances typically aren't as far. The task of running buses from Cincinnati & Norwood out to the Union Center and Tri-County areas, then buzzing in and out of all the various businesses on side streets is a tall one, since the bus rides will easily exceed one hour on these extreme distances. Also I shouldn't just pick on the NK counties since many people commute from remote parts of Hamilton County like Newtown and Delhi all the way up to the Tri-County and Union Centre areas. In fact I'm a bit suspicious that part of the effort for the new Red Bank --> Rt. 32 connector is to make the flat land on Rt. 32 east of I-275 much more accessible than it is now for those in central Hamilton County and industrial development of that area.
July 25, 200717 yr Also I shouldn't just pick on the NK counties since many people commute from remote parts of Hamilton County like Newtown and Delhi all the way up to the Tri-County and Union Centre areas. In fact I'm a bit suspicious that part of the effort for the new Red Bank --> Rt. 32 connector is to make the flat land on Rt. 32 east of I-275 much more accessible than it is now for those in central Hamilton County and industrial development of that area. The proposed US 50 improvements will also do this in the far western reaches...opening up the flat land in western HamCo and SE Indiana.
July 25, 200717 yr Talking about far drives. . . if you wander out 32 it is clear that Mt. Orab which to me is way out in the boonies is now the gateway to Greater Cincinnati. I've known more than a few people that commute daily from Brown and Highland Cty into Cincinnati for work. Crazy if you ask me. No doubt that the road expansion is heavily driven by the search for good flat land, especially since our location is pretty good for distribution centers. On the European issue, I think over time (decades) you will see the top urban areas dominated by the upper and middle classes, while the suburbs (mostly the post-WWII areas) will decline. They will become the core working class and poor areas. Europe and most of the rest of the world is rich in the middle and progressively poorer as you move further out (banlieus of Paris most famously). My sense is that this will be the general trend in the US. Manhattan, Boston, Chicago are leading the way. I actually think that if the US starts to expand its rail system that this will accelerate this development as higher wealth will accumulate where transportation costs are lower.
July 25, 200717 yr Talking about far drives. . . if you wander out 32 it is clear that Mt. Orab which to me is way out in the boonies is now the gateway to Greater Cincinnati. Driving out to Athens a few years ago (after not having been there in a few years), I was horrified by what I saw at the US-68 interchange. And there were housing developments around there that looked like something you'd see at Kyles Station. I'm not that old, but I still remember when there were maybe three gas stations on Route 32 between the outskirts of Batavia and Athens County. About the biggest business on that stretch was that Amish place (Keim's?) by the highway. It's so true though that people are now living out there and commuting to Cincinnati. I could never stand that. I think Mt. Washington is far away because I have to cross the Beechmont Levee!
July 26, 200717 yr The only reason NKY has such a buzz is because generally, people don't care about much economic development other than the fun stuff, like retail, nightlife.
July 26, 200717 yr Here's the thing that has always confused me... NKY is a suburb of Cincinnati. Comparing NKY to Cincy is the same as comparing Blue Ash, Montgomery, and Loveland to Cincy. Yet, we always seem to debate NKY v Cincy and not Northern Suburbs v Cincy. If NKY wasn't a different state would we even have this discussion?
July 26, 200717 yr If NKY wasn't a different state would we even have this discussion? No, but people seem unable to understand that Newport and Covington are essentially extensions of Downtown Cincinnati, or that Nky and Cincinnati are the same metro. So onward with the biggest d!ck comparisons. :laugh:
July 26, 200717 yr Well, our riverfront is being redeveloped while Cincinasty has several square blocks of just concrete holes.
July 26, 200717 yr I don't know why people get all insecure about whats happening on the other side of the river. They don't have the tax base to subsidize their projects when they fail (which doesn't take too long).
July 26, 200717 yr Well, our riverfront is being redeveloped while Cincinasty has several square blocks of just concrete holes. Uh ... I'll take "our" riverfront any day over "yours", so na! What is it, like 2 or 3 miles of beautiful parkland?
July 27, 200717 yr If NKY wasn't a different state would we even have this discussion? No, but people seem unable to understand that Newport and Covington are essentially extensions of Downtown Cincinnati, or that Nky and Cincinnati are the same metro. So onward with the biggest d!ck comparisons. :laugh: I hope this isn't directed at me...Just to be sure, I see the connection and am all for regionalism. Now about that comparison thing...I only pull out enough to win :laugh:
July 27, 200717 yr ^No it wasn't directed at anyone specifically, it just always seems popular for people to compare the two and look at them as different entities. When in all reality isn't the case. I only pull out enough to win That's great!
July 28, 200717 yr Honestly, the majority of new construction on both sides of the river is pretty lackluster. I know most of my posts come across as pessimistic, but there's no reason we should be content with the projects that have actually been implemented in the past few years. We have every right to expect more, but local developers, architects, and builders only know suburban schlock. It simply doesn't translate well in established urban neighborhoods. Frankly, it doesn't work anywhere, but that's for another thread. People in Kentucky compare NKY with downtown Cincinnati only and have no clue of the other projects happening throughout the city. Hell, the amount of people in Ohio who think Oakley or Hyde Park or even Clifton are suburbs is embarrasing. That aside, even if we were to compare only the CBD with the 3 separate cities in NKY with a project here and there, we'd come up ahead. It's all about publicity and with local media, it's never going to favor Cincinnati. To delve into a deeper thought I've had for a while, I think we're witnessing quite the phenomenon here. What is "Northern Kentucky?" It's 3 counties that have had a ton of growth in the past 2 decades, almost entirely suburban. The entire concept of urban living has been forgotten on that side of the river for over 40 years, unless you were unfortunate enough to be among the working class that couldn't afford to climb the hill to Fort Wright or beyond to the now ridiculous Walton or Independence. If I may generalize, there are 2 types of Northern Kentuckians: Those who grew up in the suburban areas and associate urbanism with poverty and filth and want to stay away; and those who grew up in the urban areas who associate urbanism with poverty and filth and want to get out. The things happening south of the river are an entirely new concept to them and it excites them, either because they've seen it in other cities or they could never imagine Covington or Newport as actually being a place to hang out or, oddly enough, live. I'm tired of typing, but the attention put on NKY is because it's a completely new experience for so many people down there, whereas in Cincinnati, it's always been there. Extreme ups and downs notwithstanding, we've always had a project going on somewhere in the city. The idea of a new building going up in Covington is just as shocking to a 20-something raised in Hebron as it is to a 60-something raised in Covington. I was raised in NKY and spend way too much of my free time in the devastatingly underappreciated beautiful urban neighborhoods. Cincinnati is "winning the race."
July 28, 200717 yr CiNYC - you said, "the majority of new construction on both sides of the river is pretty lackluster" - I'm curious, what is an example of non-lackluster new construction that you've seen around here? Let me tell you what I'm pursuing - I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the lackluster appraisal, but I wonder if perhaps there's more of the non-lackluster-type stuff going on, but it's of a necessity on a smaller scale, and thus flies below the radar...if you pointed to something you think is good work, it might be that there's more of it going on than might immediately spring to mind. But I could be wrong - you might be up-to-date on all the assorted in-fill, and still find it lacking in luster...if so, that's cool, I just thought it would be worthwhile to pursue...
July 28, 200717 yr *sigh* Me versus you threads really suck. They encourage frivolous discussions and should be locked. Can't we all just get along? :)
July 28, 200717 yr Well, our riverfront is being redeveloped while Cincinasty has several square blocks of just concrete holes. *sigh* Me versus you threads really suck. They encourage frivolous discussions and should be locked. Can't we all just get along? :) ...quick question - which of your above comments was the sarcastic one? I'm guessing the first, but wanted to confirm with you, because it's pretty obvious you could not possibly have meant what you said in both of them!
July 28, 200717 yr If you're from Kentucky and Cincinnati sucks so bad; I have a hard time understanding why you post so much in Cincinnati threads :? :?
July 28, 200717 yr This topic is a little silly as there is so much more on the Ohio side already, more people, more business, more everything. Although Kentucky, being Kentucky, isn't exactly cool, leadership has done a good job of taking advantage of its location and views - but that energy quickly wanes as you go just a few blocks from the river. Even without the Banks being underway there is already over a billion dollars worth of investment in the stadiums and Freedom center. Add to this all the work being done by 3CDC with Fountain Square and OTR, not to mention City West and Riverside Drive and there is a lot of development already happening. I am also not convinced of the longevity of Newport on the Levee as there seems to be a fair amount of turnover - the Empire night club is gone, the IMAX theater is closed, a couple restaurants have closed, and the retail stores are very slow. Any development around the river is good though.
July 28, 200717 yr I'm going to be completely honest and unbiased in the following statement: I moved to Newport (near Mansion Hill district -if you can call it that) last fall. Before the move, I thought Newport was a pretty cool neighborhood. I was a little embarrassed at first to have the "KY" in my address, but after a few months I got over it. What I also found out was there was an enormous amount of white people. I'm white, but I can't stand living in areas where everyone is white. Too many whites create a weird "atmosphere". So, I got on the census site and realized Newport was made up of almost 93% white people. To give you a better understanding; Blue-Freakin-Ash is more racially diverse. Also, once you get past the levee, the OHIO plates phase out. No one in OH goes past the levee (of course I'm a exaggerating just a little here, but you get the point). Newport is not at all cracked up to what is reflected in the news media. It's not the neighborhood, it's it's residents. I love the architecture and the history is amazingly an attention grabber -but it's residents bug the shit out of me. So, all in all ... we bought a condo in Mt. Auburn (God, I am really tempted to refer to it as OTR ... it's so close).
July 28, 200717 yr Since we are talking about developments, if you get a chance, check out this month's Lane Report. Has information on riverfront developments in northern Kentucky, specifically, Oviation and the other blue thingy. Great read. The Lane Report has been on the ball lately with development updates.
July 28, 200717 yr So, all in all ... we bought a condo in Mt. Auburn (God, I am really tempted to refer to it as OTR ... it's so close). Oh, dude, ain't nothing wrong with Mt. Auburn! Be proud of your neighborhood - Mt. Auburn is a WONDERFUL place! It's not better or worse than OTR, it's just different!
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