Does anyone know if this era of Covid has resulted in any sort of design requirements for airports? It does seem a larger building with more open space would be preferable for numerous reasons. 

On 4/20/2022 at 12:39 AM, marty15 said:

The potential new airport layout.

We should note that now former Director  Kennedy was clear that PAL5 was unlikely to be reached, and this particular version was anticipated to be too expensive to finance. The new A, B, and C would happen and perhaps also new E, but rather than a new D it is more likely that the existing C get renovated. And it’s all in phases. IIRC the new B is first (fortunately- that’s certainly the worst current concourse).

 

And overall I really like the design and direction. Everything will be new, but done in phases. (With the possible exception of concourse C.) Wide concourses, sufficient gate seating, and minimizing walking distances were points of emphasis. They recognize that upgrading customs and immigration are absolutely critical. They also repeatedly noted the importance of the Red Line direct to the terminal, and acknowledged that the main benefit of that was for airport employees to get to work. 
 

Based on watching him present at the planning meetings, I’m disappointed that Kennedy left. Things seemed to be better at Hopkins since he took over. Hopefully Bibb gets someone good - this project means it’s a critical time. 

Yes, Kennedy was a good director, but at 69 years old, I can understand his reason for stepping down.  I hope they can get started on phase 1 a little sooner.  Their plan was to wait until passenger numbers returned to pre-pandemic level (their guess was 2024, which was a bit pessimistic IMO) and start phase 1 in 2025.

 

Edited April 26, 20223 yr by LibertyBlvd

7 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Yes, Kennedy was a good director, but at 69 years old, I can understand his reason for stepping down.  I hope they can get started on phase 1 a little sooner.  Their plan was to wait until passenger numbers returned to pre-pandemic level (their guess was 2024, which was a bit pessimistic IMO) and start phase 1 in 2025.

 

Didn’t know his age - thx, that makes sense. 
 

Kennedy was clear that the primary reason for the delay was paying down debt (ie paying off the Continental D concourse). We’ll see if new management shares those concerns. Inflation and low interest rates would be a good reason to start sooner rather than later.

Permit submitted to the city today by Spirit Airlines that will make $200,000 worth of renovations to its ticketing counter and break room at Hopkins.

On 5/2/2022 at 2:22 PM, KJP said:

Permit submitted to the city today by Spirit Airlines that will make $200,000 worth of renovations to its ticketing counter and break room at Hopkins.

 

I wonder if employees need to pay to use the break room lol. In all seriousness, if you accept it for what it is, spirit is a good thing to have here.

Is Spirit still planning to merge with Frontier?

15 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Is Spirit still planning to merge with Frontier?

Who knows, JetBlue just sweetened the offer to buy Spirit. Those two don't make sense at all, but I am not an airline executive...

 

^The irony of “routes convention” being somewhere that EVERYONE has to connect to get to. 

I assume the non-stop service to Iceland is never coming back.

7 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

^The irony of “routes convention” being somewhere that EVERYONE has to connect to get to. 

Next session is in Lodz, Poland.  😁

On 5/21/2022 at 1:01 AM, Dougal said:

 

 

I just saw that Pittsburgh's new nonstop service to London starts June 3rd. What did they do that we haven't? 

 

23 minutes ago, KJP said:

I just saw that Pittsburgh's new nonstop service to London starts June 3rd. What did they do that we haven't? 

Pittsburgh has been more aggressive than CLE in pursuing international nonstop service. I believe it is still being subsidized by the city and/or state.

1 minute ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Pittsburgh has been more aggressive than CLE in pursuing international nonstop service. I believe it is still being subsidized by the city and/or state.

They have a very aggressive airport director, among other things... SHE has been relentless in getting and keeping service. 

4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

I just saw that Pittsburgh's new nonstop service to London starts June 3rd. What did they do that we haven't? 

 

I believe Pittsburgh civic parties put up $3 million for a four-days-a-week flight.  CLE has always been reluctant to do that. Now that Ohio is willing to chip in, CLE may get find a similar deal. 

And Pittsburgh airport has a $1.4 billion modernization underway.   I'm not sure what's happening with the CLE master plan.  I have sent a few emails recently, but have received no response.  😟

13 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

And Pittsburgh airport has a $1.4 billion modernization underway.   I'm not sure what's happening with the CLE master plan.  I have sent a few emails recently, but have received no response.  😟

Worse yet, PIT will have built.... operated for 30 years... and replaced their airport facilities completely before CLE builds...

17 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

And Pittsburgh airport has a $1.4 billion modernization underway.   I'm not sure what's happening with the CLE master plan.  I have sent a few emails recently, but have received no response.  😟

Cleveland's master plan revision is in the hands of the FAA for approval; there is no deadline for the FAA to act.  Assuming the FAA approves, any actual design and construction is driven incrementally and solely by the achievement of rising passenger levels at the airport.

On 5/23/2022 at 11:03 AM, Dougal said:

Cleveland's master plan revision is in the hands of the FAA for approval; there is no deadline for the FAA to act.  Assuming the FAA approves, any actual design and construction is driven incrementally and solely by the achievement of rising passenger levels at the airport.

Right. As I recall from the last workshop, phase 1 of the master plan will not get started until after passenger numbers return to the pre-pandemic level of 10 million.  They estimate that will not happen until 2024, with construction starting in 2026. That is unfortunate since phase 1 addresses issues that should have been addressed years ago.

 

Edited May 27, 20223 yr by LibertyBlvd

1 hour ago, eyehrtfood said:

Worse yet, PIT will have built.... operated for 30 years... and replaced their airport facilities completely before CLE builds...

I mean, that is accurate, but let’s not forget the context. 
 

The other way of looking at it is that PIT is tearing down the massive over-capacity that is a legacy of the USAir hub, built just 30 years ago for (inflation adjusted) a billion+ dollars, and having to spend another $1.4 billion just to right size for its post-hub existence. Which airport is a better long-term example of investment, looking at it through that optic?

Neither airport necessarily got it right or wrong, they are both responding to the 21st century US aviation market (e.g a few fortress hubs on the coasts and the largest of interior markets) as best as their respective economics will allow. 

 

Edited May 23, 20223 yr by brtshrcegr

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/05/cleveland-hopkins-has-deal-to-pay-12m-for-sheraton-airport-hotel-will-likely-become-parking-lot.html

8 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/05/cleveland-hopkins-has-deal-to-pay-12m-for-sheraton-airport-hotel-will-likely-become-parking-lot.html

 

If the plan is to tear down the hotel for additional parking in the short-term, hopefully it's to provide planners a blank slate so they have more flexibility with the master plan. 

 

Maybe being a Clevelander the idea of another surface lot is just triggering and it isn't such a poor use of land at an airport, but I think we could still do better. Rental car facility/garage? 

Edited May 27, 20223 yr by Luke_S

1 hour ago, Luke_S said:

 

If the plan is to tear down the hotel for additional parking in the short-term, hopefully it's to provide planners a blank slate so they have more flexibility with the master plan. 

 

Maybe being a Clevelander the idea of another surface lot is just triggering and it isn't such a poor use of land at an airport, but I think we could still do better. Rental car facility/garage? 

Would be alot nicer than the sad, bus terminal, and arduous ride to the forgotten offsite car rental facility. If and when i have to travel into CLE, its always interesting to hear peoples commentary about how sad and neglected the car rental facility is approaching and leaving. 

3 minutes ago, savadams13 said:

Would be alot nicer than the sad, bus terminal, and arduous ride to the forgotten offsite car rental facility. If and when i have to travel into CLE, its always interesting to hear peoples commentary about how sad and neglected the car rental facility is approaching and leaving. 

 

I've flowing in and out of the Milwaukee airport a few times for work; its not the newest or nicest airport I've been through, but having the rental car facility attached directly to the terminal was one of the best amenities of any airport I've been through. I even enjoyed it more than O'Hare's new facility which is very nice.

 

Disclaimer: I haven't been through that many airports and have rented cars at fewer. 

12 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

I've flowing in and out of the Milwaukee airport a few times for work; its not the newest or nicest airport I've been through, but having the rental car facility attached directly to the terminal was one of the best amenities of any airport I've been through. I even enjoyed it more than O'Hare's new facility which is very nice.

 

Disclaimer: I haven't been through that many airports and have rented cars at fewer. 

Based out of CVG I am biased because of our new facility, but our old situation was worse than CLE. However every once in awhile during a week of travel I have had to make a stop in CLE. So I have observed business and some leisure travelers on the car rental bus and the comments they make. 

13 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

I've flowing in and out of the Milwaukee airport a few times for work; its not the newest or nicest airport I've been through, but having the rental car facility attached directly to the terminal was one of the best amenities of any airport I've been through. I even enjoyed it more than O'Hare's new facility which is very nice.

 

Disclaimer: I haven't been through that many airports and have rented cars at fewer. 

 

Having a rental car facility attached to the terminal is such a great feature, especially for people traveling for business. It always sucks when you finally land, get off the plane, get your bags (if you checked), and then have to wait at a bus stop for 5 minutes and then take a 10 minute bus ride in a cramped rental car shuttle bus. I know it doesn't really add a ton of travel time, but it's such an annoyance. 

 

I always liked the fact that our former rental car facility here at CMH was directly attached to the terminal, and I'm even happier that the new rental car facility will be directly attached to the new terminal once it is built. 

4 hours ago, Luke_S said:

 

If the plan is to tear down the hotel for additional parking in the short-term, hopefully it's to provide planners a blank slate so they have more flexibility with the master plan. 

 

Maybe being a Clevelander the idea of another surface lot is just triggering and it isn't such a poor use of land at an airport, but I think we could still do better. Rental car facility/garage? 

I believe the first phase of the master plan includes moving the rental car facility back on-site.

On 5/19/2021 at 2:44 PM, NorthShore647 said:

* Cleveland.com Subscriber Exclusive Article *

$2 billion plan to rebuild Cleveland Hopkins International Airport includes four new concourses, I-71 interchange, more

Susan Glaser - Cleveland.com - May 19, 2021

 

"Airport director Robert Kennedy outlined the key features of a $2 billion plan to rebuild Hopkins to members of Cleveland City Council’s Transportation Committee on Wednesday. ... When completely finished, the airport would feature one renovated concourse (concourse A), and four new concourses (B, C, D and E). About 29% of the airport would be renovated, with 71% brand new. ... Realistically, Kennedy said construction on the first phase of the plan, which would cost an estimated $780 million, wouldn’t begin until 2026. ... Now, the plan goes to the Federal Aviation Administration for approval, and then back to the community for financing and implementation."

 

Phase 1:

 

Final Phase:

 

 

Here is the presentation to the Transportation Committee from today:

 

Yes, moving the Rental Car facility back to on site is part of phase 1. Along with replacing Concourses B and A (in that order), replacing FIS (Customs and Immigration), and new security screening.  One note on the quoted post above - there are intermediate phases between the first phase and the "final phase". How many of those phases would be built is dependent on passenger traffic (PAL = Passenger Activity Level, IIRC).

On 5/27/2022 at 10:47 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

Yes, moving the Rental Car facility back to on site is part of phase 1. Along with replacing Concourses B and A (in that order), replacing FIS (Customs and Immigration), and new security screening.  One note on the quoted post above - there are intermediate phases between the first phase and the "final phase". How many of those phases would be built is dependent on passenger traffic (PAL = Passenger Activity Level, IIRC).

I believe passenger traffic is nearly back to pre-pandemic level.   It sure would be nice if they could get started on phase 1 sooner than their estimated start of 2026. 

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I believe passenger traffic is nearly back to pre-pandemic level.   It sure would be nice if they could get started on phase 1 sooner than their estimated start of 2026. 

I completely agree with starting sooner. Kennedy talked about paying off the Concourse D debt before borrowing for this project. We’ll see if a new airport leader and the new city administration have a different opinion on when to begin. 

Here is the latest on the Sheraton Hopkins acquisition.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/06/more-parking-coming-soon-to-cleveland-hopkins-as-city-acquires-and-plans-to-tear-down-sheraton-cleveland-airport-hotel.html

20 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Here is the latest on the Sheraton Hopkins acquisition.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2022/06/more-parking-coming-soon-to-cleveland-hopkins-as-city-acquires-and-plans-to-tear-down-sheraton-cleveland-airport-hotel.html

I ended up staying here last week due to a very late flight into Cleveland. Woke up the next morning to have breakfast in the restaurant. The waitress said they were all told, the hotel was closing and they were losing there jobs. So looks like the Sheraton is coming down. 

On 5/22/2022 at 10:41 PM, Dougal said:

I believe Pittsburgh civic parties put up $3 million for a four-days-a-week flight.  CLE has always been reluctant to do that. Now that Ohio is willing to chip in, CLE may get find a similar deal. 

Further info, Indy puts up $4 million ($2 million for 2 years) for transtlantic flight.

 

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/298164/indianapolis-targets-transatlantic-service/

CLE to Seattle 

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2022/06/bookings-to-seattle-outpacing-expectations-says-alaska-airlines-which-launches-from-cleveland-next-week.html

Welcome, Alaska Air!

 

On 6/3/2022 at 5:02 PM, savadams13 said:

I ended up staying here last week due to a very late flight into Cleveland. Woke up the next morning to have breakfast in the restaurant. The waitress said they were all told, the hotel was closing and they were losing there jobs. So looks like the Sheraton is coming down. 

Sad.  Another example of something Cleveland was first in her heyday, and now continues a slow regression into a tertiary market.  

I'd love to see the Port Authority include this in the master plan with some clever financing to put a hotel on top of one of the new short term garages or rental car facility in the future.   

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

Sad.  Another example of something Cleveland was first in her heyday, and now continues a slow regression into a tertiary market.  

I'd love to see the Port Authority include this in the master plan with some clever financing to put a hotel on top of one of the new short term garages or rental car facility in the future.   

 

Since CLE is no longer a hub and most trips begin or end here is there really a need for an on-site hotel? From the reporting it sounds like it was mostly flight crews at the end and unfortunately I don't think we're going to be gaining status as a hub again. 

 

When, and more likely if, Amtrak is able to successfully expand in Ohio and put a stop at Hopkins maybe it would make sense to have a hotel positioned somewhere between the two. 

58 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

Since CLE is no longer a hub and most trips begin or end here is there really a need for an on-site hotel? From the reporting it sounds like it was mostly flight crews at the end and unfortunately I don't think we're going to be gaining status as a hub again. 

 

When, and more likely if, Amtrak is able to successfully expand in Ohio and put a stop at Hopkins maybe it would make sense to have a hotel positioned somewhere between the two. 

 

CMH has 4 hotels onsite with another ~12 hotels at the entrance to the airport area. I have no idea what the occupancy rate is for the rooms, but they always seem full when I drive by and 3 or 4 of them are new within the last 5 or so years. If CMH can support that many hotels (granted not all rooms are specifically related to airport travelers), it seems like CLE could still support one. 

It is unfortunate that CLE is shoehorned into such a tight space surrounded by Ford, NASA, IX Center, 237, I-480 and Rocky River Reservation.  I don't know where any new hotel(s) could be built nearby, maybe around the IX Center. or perhaps near Brookpark and Grayton where there are already a couple hotels (and one more coming in the old NASA L building).

14 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

It is unfortunate that CLE is shoehorned into such a tight space surrounded by Ford, NASA, IX Center, 237, I-480 and Rocky River Reservation.  I don't know where any new hotel(s) could be built nearby, maybe around the IX Center. or perhaps near Brookpark and Grayton where there are already a couple hotels (and one more coming in the old NASA L building).

There was one planned in northern Berea where Front and Rocky River split, which was a casualty of the pandemic.  The former Ford site is now a huge blank slate, which I think would be a great spot for a new hotel or two.

As someone who has lived in the Pacific NW … HUGE fan of Alaska Airlines.  Such good news. 
 

Side note.  Cleveland-Akron should be our own version of Seattle-Tacoma… where we would host 1-2 airline hubs for sure.  If only I had a time machine… or $20 billion dollars to build new somewhere new… Northfield or even Hinckley..

 

 

Edited June 17, 20222 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

39 minutes ago, MuRrAy HiLL said:

As someone who has lived in the Pacific NW … HUGE fan of Alaska Airlines.  Such good news. 
 

Side note.  Cleveland-Akron should be our own version of Seattle-Tacoma… where we would host 1-2 airline hubs for sure.  If only I had a time machine… or $20 billion dollars to build new somewhere new… Northfield or even Hinckley..

 

 

If I had $20B and a time machine, I would build out high speed rail in Ohio connecting the 8 largest metros plus Detroit, Chicago, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Indi, and Louisville. Much more utility than a hub airport. 

Encouraging timeline on new terminal........

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/cleveland-hopkins-airport-jet-bridges-need-replacing

 

"Kennedy said he believes negotiating with airlines about the terminal master plan can begin earlier than the city hoped.

“I think we're going to get it done by next spring,” he said. “So, that allows us to go out to the bonding market at the end of next year or beginning of the following year. What we need on that first phase is $780,000,000 and once we get that, then we can start designs. We could see a shovel in the ground in 2025 or 2026.”"

 

Edited June 30, 20222 yr by dski44

5 minutes ago, dski44 said:

Encouraging timeline on new terminal........

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/cleveland-hopkins-airport-jet-bridges-need-replacing

 

"Kennedy said he believes negotiating with airlines about the terminal master plan can begin earlier than the city hoped.

“I think we're going to get it done by next spring,” he said. “So, that allows us to go out to the bonding market at the end of next year or beginning of the following year. What we need on that first phase is $780,000,000 and once we get that, then we can start designs. We could see a shovel in the ground in 2025 or 2026.”"

 

Sorry Everybody, I cant figure out how to properly paste the link

Here is the full link:

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/cleveland-hopkins-airport-jet-bridges-need-replacing/95-afffd5e9-82b4-4d42-a051-12e8516cef9f

 

2025/2026 was the original estimated timeframe for the start of construction for phase 1.   I was hoping it would start sooner since passenger numbers are nearly back to pre-pandemic level.  Phase 1 addresses issues that should have been addressed years ago.

 

Edited June 30, 20222 yr by LibertyBlvd

This Simple Flying article mentions that Cleveland, St Louis, and a few other cities are right behind just announced Tampa in the size of unserved London/Heathrow non-stop demand. 

 

 

Heathrow's Largest Unserved US Market: Virgin Atlantic Reveals Tampa Flights

 

https://simpleflying.com/virgin-announces-heathrow-tampa/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=echo&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1657103982

Edited July 9, 20222 yr by eyehrtfood

56 minutes ago, eyehrtfood said:

This Simple Flying article mentions that Cleveland, St Louis, and a few other cities are right behind just announced Tampa in the size of unserved London/Heathrow non-stop demand. 

 

 

Heathrow's Largest Unserved US Market: Virgin Atlantic Reveals Tampa Flights

 

https://simpleflying.com/virgin-announces-heathrow-tampa/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=echo&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1657103982

 

I know this is an anecdote - but I had 4-5 people in Ireland - primarily in Counties Mayo and Galway - complain about the lack of non-stop flights from Ireland to Cleveland. 2 of these individuals worked at Cleveland-based companies with a presence in Ireland

53 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I know this is an anecdote - but I had 4-5 people in Ireland - primarily in Counties Mayo and Galway - complain about the lack of non-stop flights from Ireland to Cleveland. 2 of these individuals worked at Cleveland-based companies with a presence in Ireland

Interesting byproduct of the Ireland tax sheltering… 

What other Cleveland-based company besides Eaton is doing that?