March 11, 20241 yr ^^ i mean, its OK to feel like Cleveland historically has had a woe is me attitude, because it has, but what exactly is pointing to that right now? We have a mayor who is trying to sell that anything is possible, the very object that started this discussion (an outdated airport) is seeing tangible movement, having lived in several of Clevelands neighborhoods over 10 years ago and now visiting them, i would say there is quite an optimistic youthful energy in the city that follows what Bibb is selling. Which is exactly what you want out of a mayor.
March 19, 20241 yr WKYC reports that a member of the Irish Parliament said that loads on CLE-DUB have averaged 85% since the route began last May. 85% probably meets the revenue guarantee in the Aer Lingus service agreement; I'd say any subsidy payment for 2023 is a very small number. February numbers were pretty bad - under 50%; but Feb numbers are always bad. Aer Lingus isn't giving away their seats, however; so their February (un)profitability might not be as bad as the load factor makes it sound. https://www.wkyc.com/video/news/local/cleveland/95-e5091b5e-373b-4646-b905-89339f9bf817 Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
April 13, 20241 yr chisoxrox did this thread starter on ssp a couple years ago — any thoughts? US Metros by flight passengers The other day, I was startled to see Denver International make the top 5 busiest airports in the country even pre-COVID, which then got me musing on what US cities pull above (and below) their weight in air travel. For methodology, I am using the 2020 Census population for Primary Statistical Areas (CSAs and stand-alone MSAs), and 2019 enplanements from the FAA (PDF source) to explicitly ignore COVID. I am using CSAs where possible as airports have a regional draw and that prevents divisions like splitting BWI from IAD/DCA or having ONT be separate from the other SoCal airports. So the 37 PSAs over 2 million ranked by per-capita commercial air boardings: City........Enplanements........PSA........Ratio Las Vegas........24,890,213........2,317,052........10.742 Denver........33,592,945........3,623,560........9.271 Charlotte........24,379,675........2,822,352........8.638 Atlanta........53,505,795........6,930,423........7.720 Miami........43,345,189........6,868,652........6.311 Orlando........26,504,700........4,222,422........6.277 Dallas........43,859,079........8,121,108........5.401 Seattle........25,422,108........4,953,421........5.132 Chicago........50,953,004........9,986,960........5.102 Salt Lake City........12,967,284........2,701,129........4.801 Phoenix........23,315,407........4,899,104........4.759 Minneapolis........19,214,684........4,078,788........4.711 SF Bay Area........42,380,512........9,714,023........4.363 Nashville........8,935,654........2,118,233........4.218 Houston........28,974,923........7,312,270........3.963 San Diego........12,648,692........3,298,634........3.835 Tampa Bay........12,122,239........3,175,275........3.818 Austin........8,507,410........2,283,371........3.726 DC-Baltimore......36,793,363........9,973,383........3.689 Detroit........18,445,646........5,424,742........3.400 Raleigh........6,919,429........2,106,463........3.285 New York........72,016,532........23,582,649........3.054 Los Angeles........56,868,962........18,644,680........3.050 Portland, OR........9,797,408........3,280,736........2.986 Boston...........23,810,043........8,466,186........2.812 St. Louis........7,927,512........2,924,904........2.710 Sacramento........6,454,413........2,680,831........2.408 Kansas City........5,759,419........2,528,644........2.278 Philadelphia........16,536,162........7,379,700........2.241 San Juan........4,630,554........2,358,201........1.964 San Antonio........5,022,980........2,576,528........1.950 Cincinnati........4,413,457........2,316,022........1.906 Indianapolis........4,709,183........2,492,514........1.889 Pittsburgh........4,874,200........2,657,149........1.834 Columbus........4,325,917........2,544,048........1.700 Milwaukee........3,374,073........2,053,232........1.643 Cleveland........5,302,187........3,633,962........1.459 Below that cutoff, you get into 1M+ metros like Fresno and Chattanooga that have sub-1 ratios, but here are smaller metros that stay above a ratio of 2. (Cutoff is 300k to get Anchorage.) City........Enplanements........PSA........Ratio Honolulu........9,988,678........1,016,508........9.826 Anchorage........2,758,507........398,328........6.925 New Orleans........6,874,111........1,506,610........4.563 Fort Myers........5,044,024........1,176,193........4.288 Reno........2,162,250........657,958........3.286 Charleston, SC........2,375,868........799,636........2.971 Spokane........1,944,393........757,146........2.568 Savannah........1,461,360........597,465........2.446 Omaha........2,455,274........1,004,771........2.444 Boise........2,057,750........850,341........2.420 Albuquerque........2,784,224........1,162,523........2.395 Myrtle Beach........1,285,200........551,126........2.332 Hartford........3,323,614........1,482,086........2.243 Buffalo........2,581,264........1,243,944........2.075 Pensacola........1,098,889........546,662........2.010 Jacksonville........3,479,923........1,733,937........2.007 So in the main list the two main factors for high air ridership are in full display: be a tourist destination (especially in a far-off corner) like Las Vegas or Orlando, or be a key airline hub (Denver, Charlotte). Indeed, Denver nearly matches Honolulu for air travel per capita! A neat coincidence is New York and Los Angeles (CSAs) having less than a 1% difference in their flights per-capita. On the other extreme, Cleveland gets a perfect storm of losing hub status with the Continental/United merger, having a large CSA with Akron and Canton (CAK is included but has tiny ridership), being within reasonable driving distance of a huge chunk of the country's population (unlike Vegas or Florida), and it's not exactly a major tourist draw. Edited April 14, 20241 yr by mrnyc
April 14, 20241 yr 16 hours ago, mrnyc said: chisoxrox did this thread starter on ssp a couple years ago — any thoughts? US Metros by flight passengers The other day, I was startled to see Denver International make the top 5 busiest airports in the country even pre-COVID, which then got me musing on what US cities pull above (and below) their weight in air travel. For methodology, I am using the 2020 Census population for Primary Statistical Areas (CSAs and stand-alone MSAs), and 2019 enplanements from the FAA (PDF source) to explicitly ignore COVID. I am using CSAs where possible as airports have a regional draw and that prevents divisions like splitting BWI from IAD/DCA or having ONT be separate from the other SoCal airports. So the 37 PSAs over 2 million ranked by per-capita commercial air boardings: City........Enplanements........PSA........Ratio Las Vegas........24,890,213........2,317,052........10.742 Denver........33,592,945........3,623,560........9.271 Charlotte........24,379,675........2,822,352........8.638 Atlanta........53,505,795........6,930,423........7.720 Miami........43,345,189........6,868,652........6.311 Orlando........26,504,700........4,222,422........6.277 Dallas........43,859,079........8,121,108........5.401 Seattle........25,422,108........4,953,421........5.132 Chicago........50,953,004........9,986,960........5.102 Salt Lake City........12,967,284........2,701,129........4.801 Phoenix........23,315,407........4,899,104........4.759 Minneapolis........19,214,684........4,078,788........4.711 SF Bay Area........42,380,512........9,714,023........4.363 Nashville........8,935,654........2,118,233........4.218 Houston........28,974,923........7,312,270........3.963 San Diego........12,648,692........3,298,634........3.835 Tampa Bay........12,122,239........3,175,275........3.818 Austin........8,507,410........2,283,371........3.726 DC-Baltimore......36,793,363........9,973,383........3.689 Detroit........18,445,646........5,424,742........3.400 Raleigh........6,919,429........2,106,463........3.285 New York........72,016,532........23,582,649........3.054 Los Angeles........56,868,962........18,644,680........3.050 Portland, OR........9,797,408........3,280,736........2.986 Boston...........23,810,043........8,466,186........2.812 St. Louis........7,927,512........2,924,904........2.710 Sacramento........6,454,413........2,680,831........2.408 Kansas City........5,759,419........2,528,644........2.278 Philadelphia........16,536,162........7,379,700........2.241 San Juan........4,630,554........2,358,201........1.964 San Antonio........5,022,980........2,576,528........1.950 Cincinnati........4,413,457........2,316,022........1.906 Indianapolis........4,709,183........2,492,514........1.889 Pittsburgh........4,874,200........2,657,149........1.834 Columbus........4,325,917........2,544,048........1.700 Milwaukee........3,374,073........2,053,232........1.643 Cleveland........5,302,187........3,633,962........1.459 Below that cutoff, you get into 1M+ metros like Fresno and Chattanooga that have sub-1 ratios, but here are smaller metros that stay above a ratio of 2. (Cutoff is 300k to get Anchorage.) City........Enplanements........PSA........Ratio Honolulu........9,988,678........1,016,508........9.826 Anchorage........2,758,507........398,328........6.925 New Orleans........6,874,111........1,506,610........4.563 Fort Myers........5,044,024........1,176,193........4.288 Reno........2,162,250........657,958........3.286 Charleston, SC........2,375,868........799,636........2.971 Spokane........1,944,393........757,146........2.568 Savannah........1,461,360........597,465........2.446 Omaha........2,455,274........1,004,771........2.444 Boise........2,057,750........850,341........2.420 Albuquerque........2,784,224........1,162,523........2.395 Myrtle Beach........1,285,200........551,126........2.332 Hartford........3,323,614........1,482,086........2.243 Buffalo........2,581,264........1,243,944........2.075 Pensacola........1,098,889........546,662........2.010 Jacksonville........3,479,923........1,733,937........2.007 So in the main list the two main factors for high air ridership are in full display: be a tourist destination (especially in a far-off corner) like Las Vegas or Orlando, or be a key airline hub (Denver, Charlotte). Indeed, Denver nearly matches Honolulu for air travel per capita! A neat coincidence is New York and Los Angeles (CSAs) having less than a 1% difference in their flights per-capita. On the other extreme, Cleveland gets a perfect storm of losing hub status with the Continental/United merger, having a large CSA with Akron and Canton (CAK is included but has tiny ridership), being within reasonable driving distance of a huge chunk of the country's population (unlike Vegas or Florida), and it's not exactly a major tourist draw. As you said, CLE's flights per capita number is low because so many of its major destinations are quite driveable. A second reason is that the aftermath of 9/11 (TSA and air traffic delays) made short-haul flying much more costly per mile and less time-efficient overall. Even without the hub, CLE to Detroit, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis. etc used to generate significant local traffic. That traffic is a reason for today's need for rail. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
April 14, 20241 yr How do city/regional economic mixes affect demand? For example, manufacturing, consulting, government, leisure, education, services, military.
April 14, 20241 yr I played golf with an acquaintance this morning who works at the airport who told me that Frontier has it's eyes on the D concourse and United is talking to them. Anyone else hear any rumours?
April 14, 20241 yr ^ Frontier would have to spend a lot of $ to convert the D gates to handle their jets. And accessing D concourse from the terminal is no picnic currently. Seems like it would make more sense for Frontier to acquire additional gates on A. Edited April 15, 20241 yr by LibertyBlvd
April 14, 20241 yr Can the jet bridgea on the west side of D not handle A320/A321's? I thought D could handle 737's. I do believe the A320's are a bit higher off the ground.
April 14, 20241 yr 12 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said: Can the jet bridgea on the west side of D not handle A320/A321's? I thought D could handle 737's. I do believe the A320's are a bit higher off the ground. I swear I took a 737 out of D back in the day En route to Miami.
April 14, 20241 yr 51 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said: Can the jet bridgea on the west side of D not handle A320/A321's? I thought D could handle 737's. I do believe the A320's are a bit higher off the ground. If memory serves, it's not as much Airbus vs Boeing, as much as it would be requiring taking every other jet bridge (and jet bridge gate door) out to retrofit the jet bridge side in order to have wingspan clearance for a mainline jet. As for the other side, the hardstand side would need a complete overhaul.
April 15, 20241 yr Any updates on the toilet rehab project? I was in a men's room at the Jacksonville Airport last week; and I was impressed by how thoroughly planned the place was to make cleaning and upkeep easy. There were no traditional sinks, just a stone slab angled rearward; no faucets, just holes that fed a gentle but adequate and unadjustable flow of warm water; no overflowing trash bins, but holes in the wall that presumably emptied into a lower level of the building; no hard to clean corners or ninety-degree angles. It was impressive - and clean despite a constant flow of people using the place. I hope CLE's plan is as forward-looking. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
April 15, 20241 yr 17 hours ago, brownsfan1226 said: If memory serves, it's not as much Airbus vs Boeing, as much as it would be requiring taking every other jet bridge (and jet bridge gate door) out to retrofit the jet bridge side in order to have wingspan clearance for a mainline jet. As for the other side, the hardstand side would need a complete overhaul. How many gates would be available on the west side of D - maybe a half dozen? It seems like it would make more sense to acquire a few more gates on A. I would like to see D reactivated, at least temporarily. It is likely they will need to find some additional gates during the re-build of B concourse which is slated for phase 1 of the master plan.
April 15, 20241 yr Man, what is going on at Hopkins today? Line for the rental car bus going from shuttle shelters all the way back to baggage claim. Humiliating first impression. Is there an event in town or is this standard?
April 15, 20241 yr 33 minutes ago, BelievelandD1 said: Man, what is going on at Hopkins today? Line for the rental car bus going from shuttle shelters all the way back to baggage claim. Humiliating first impression. Is there an event in town or is this standard? Not sure what event there might be, but this is not the norm. I don't remember this many people ever seeking a rental car from the airport at any point. But this isn't any different from more than a couple times that I've been at DFW airport waiting for a rental bus.
April 16, 20241 yr On 4/15/2024 at 10:50 AM, LibertyBlvd said: How many gates would be available on the west side of D - maybe a half dozen? It seems like it would make more sense to acquire a few more gates on A. I would like to see D reactivated, at least temporarily. It is likely they will need to find some additional gates during the re-build of B concourse which is slated for phase 1 of the master plan. Without any engineering background whatsoever, I would guess that side could handle between 4 and 8 mainline jets, but that the hardstand walkways would have to be demolished and replaced by jet bridges. I question how worthwhile that kind of demo/reno would be. Even though D is by far the most up to date concourse of the 4 that CLE has, it'll be 30 years old sooner than later. It also would continue to have major faults...the worst being the lack of main terminal connector. Fortunately, United is on the hook for its debt the next several years, unless those Frontier rumors above are true and eventually consummated. Edited April 16, 20241 yr by brownsfan1226
April 16, 20241 yr Using Concourse D would contradict the new master plan, unless something has changed that I’m not aware of.
April 16, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, Enginerd said: Using Concourse D would contradict the new master plan, unless something has changed that I’m not aware of. Seems like some or maybe all gates on B will not be accessible when the new B is being built. Airlines using those gates will need to go elsewhere. That's why I think using D temporarily until the new B is completed might make sense, unless there are other gates that could be used. Edited April 16, 20241 yr by LibertyBlvd
April 16, 20241 yr How much will the renovation of concourse A affect the operations of airlines using it?
April 17, 20241 yr 23 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said: Seems like some or maybe all gates on B will not be accessible when the new B is being built. Airlines using those gates will need to go elsewhere. That's why I think using D temporarily until the new B is completed might make sense, unless there are other gates that could be used. Concourse B is first - at least half of B gates will be in use throughout the construction project (IIRC). Look at the diagram a few posts ago - the gates on the left (south) and the end will remain in use while the new B is built on the right (north). Once the new B is complete, the half of gates on the right (north) will open and they will demolish the old B. Once that is gone, they will open the other half of the new B. Seems like a good plan to me. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
April 18, 20241 yr And from what I've seen in Concourse C, particularly the non-banjo gates, I would think C can accommodate any carrier displaced by the B Demolition and A renovation. It would be crowded, but there seems to be enough common-use gates without the need to reactivate D.
April 18, 20241 yr It would have been nice if they could have built the new B concourse a few years ago when passenger numbers were down due to pandemic. Oh well.
April 18, 20241 yr On 4/16/2024 at 3:38 PM, BelievelandD1 said: Jamaica is already dead…ouch. That's the problem with Frontier. They are not very patient. If they don't see good numbers immediately, the route is dropped.
April 18, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said: That's the problem with Frontier. They are not very patient. If they don't see good numbers immediately, the route is dropped. There was a recent article in the WSJ that said that same thing. The ULCCs, at the fares they charge, can't wait for a new route to grow and mature. It must pay its way immediately or it gets cut. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
April 19, 20241 yr im not an expert in the industry and have no basis to suggest this, but if Cleveland was a focus city, why wouldnt they route passengers to Jamaica through Cleveland?
April 19, 20241 yr ^Believe it or not, they sorta do. Just for fun, here is an example of a listed connection on Frontier's site: Montego Bay (MBJ) to Philadelphia (PHL) via Cleveland (CLE) for April 21st. MBJ. CLE. CLE. PHL 12:34 EST. >>>>>>> 17:08 EDT. OVERNIGHT 07:06 EDT>>>>>>> 08:26 EDT (Next Morning) Would you select this connection? $270 This says a lot about their ops.
April 19, 20241 yr They have not yet added any of the other new destinations which were previously announced. Once they do, they could be able to feed in connecting passengers.
April 24, 20241 yr https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2024/04/passenger-numbers-are-way-up-at-cleveland-hopkins-so-far-this-year-heres-how-much.html
April 25, 20241 yr 18 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said: https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2024/04/passenger-numbers-are-way-up-at-cleveland-hopkins-so-far-this-year-heres-how-much.html In light of this, I’m really wanting more information regarding the airport modernization. There really hasn’t been any info since the master planning sessions.
April 25, 20241 yr 19 minutes ago, Enginerd said: In light of this, I’m really wanting more information regarding the airport modernization. There really hasn’t been any info since the master planning sessions. Agreed. They were very pessimistic about passenger numbers returning to pre-pandemic levels. Their estimate was 2025 and thus was the beginning timeline for the first phase of the project. The master plan website is apparently not being monitored. I have received no response from several questions I sent over the last couple years.
April 27, 20241 yr On 4/25/2024 at 10:12 AM, Enginerd said: In light of this, I’m really wanting more information regarding the airport modernization. There really hasn’t been any info since the master planning sessions. As a contractor in the area, I know and have been invited to the info to bidders meetings they are hosting for the "Terminal modernization project." I say that to say the process is beginning. The first one was early this week. Don't have more info at the moment, but things are getting going with this.
April 29, 20241 yr 9.6% uptick in march — 👍 https://www.instagram.com/p/C6J5w2zSmlu/?igsh=MTNzeDZ3dGJ6enZjYg==
May 10, 20241 yr Hurry up and wait: TSA lines grow long as Cleveland Hopkins passenger numbers increase - cleveland.com What a ridiculous article. The lines at Hopkins should not be an hour long, that would suggest flow, process and efficiency issues. And instead of the airport/TSA folks saying "we will try to do better, ensure efficiency and try to minimize lines", she tells people to get there 2 hours in advance. Come on man
May 10, 20241 yr TSA Pre-Check costs around $80 for 5 years of far shorter line and far less hassle (shies, belt, etc stay on) than regular security. It's even free with many credit cards - as is Clear, the eye scanning, line jumping service. No one flying in 2024 should be without Pre-Check.
May 11, 20241 yr 14 hours ago, eyehrtfood said: TSA Pre-Check costs around $80 for 5 years of far shorter line and far less hassle (shies, belt, etc stay on) than regular security. It's even free with many credit cards - as is Clear, the eye scanning, line jumping service. No one flying in 2024 should be without Pre-Check. I flew out this morning the pre-check line was backed up all the way to the far counters outside the A security checkpoint. Thankful for Clear where there was only 10 people in line!
May 13, 20241 yr On 5/10/2024 at 7:04 PM, eyehrtfood said: TSA Pre-Check costs around $80 for 5 years of far shorter line and far less hassle (shies, belt, etc stay on) than regular security. It's even free with many credit cards - as is Clear, the eye scanning, line jumping service. No one flying in 2024 should be without Pre-Check. i do have pre check and use it. the only time i dont is with family vacation as my wife does now have pre check thats only once or twice a year. Largely the pre check line is efficient and quick....but ive even see that backed up with a 15-20 minute wait. feels like an opportunity to be better
May 21, 20241 yr Bathroom renovations start. 1 down 12 to go. https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2024/05/first-restroom-redo-complete-at-cleveland-hopkins-airport-12-more-to-go.html
May 21, 20241 yr 10 minutes ago, Ethan said: Bathroom renovations start. 1 down 12 to go. https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2024/05/first-restroom-redo-complete-at-cleveland-hopkins-airport-12-more-to-go.html I'll give it its first stress test next week after I eat 3 Cinnabons at my gate
May 25, 20241 yr I'm at CLE this morning. Thank god for Clear. Total $hitSh*w. North, South and central TSA checkpoint lines were entwined throughout the entire ticketing lobby. People couldn't get to airline counters. A complete mess. The city really needs to come up with a plan of addressing this. But in the meantime, there is a new restroom once you navigate security....
May 26, 20241 yr All that TSA so as not to offend would-be subjects of behavioral screenings. Airports are proudly leading the charge to the race to the bottom with schools in second place.
May 29, 20241 yr largest increase in destinations hopkins has evern seen coming soon — ✈️ https://www.instagram.com/p/C7CejWotyp-/?igsh=MWJseXFodjAxMjRqZg==
May 30, 20241 yr On 5/25/2024 at 5:14 AM, Cleburger said: I'm at CLE this morning. Thank god for Clear. Total $hitSh*w. North, South and central TSA checkpoint lines were entwined throughout the entire ticketing lobby. People couldn't get to airline counters. A complete mess. The city really needs to come up with a plan of addressing this. But in the meantime, there is a new restroom once you navigate security.... The lines this past Saturday morning were insanity as well; Pre-Check Clear saved me too. But on my red-eye return Tuesday morning (unless my lack of sleep made me delirious) the pre-check and clear lines were both out the steps and down the hall at 5am.
June 1, 20241 yr On 5/25/2024 at 5:14 AM, Cleburger said: I'm at CLE this morning. Thank god for Clear. Total $hitSh*w. North, South and central TSA checkpoint lines were entwined throughout the entire ticketing lobby. People couldn't get to airline counters. A complete mess. The city really needs to come up with a plan of addressing this. But in the meantime, there is a new restroom once you navigate security.... It's like some head of TSA flew out of Cleveland and decided it was too fast last summer, or there weren't enough precheck/clear/global entry sales in NEO. There is absolutely no excuse for lines like we have seen recently at an airport serving the amount of passengers we do. In the last 6 months I've flown out of airports serving 3X, 7X, 3X, and 4X our traffic, and my 2 flights out of Cleveland have taken the longest to get from the front door of the airport to the gate areas, and its not even close. My Cleveland times were about 45 and 70 minutes. At those 4 other airports the longest time was about 20-25 minutes, and that included going through passport/customs as I was leaving the Schengen area.
June 1, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, PlanCleveland said: It's like some head of TSA flew out of Cleveland and decided it was too fast last summer, or there weren't enough precheck/clear/global entry sales in NEO. There is absolutely no excuse for lines like we have seen recently at an airport serving the amount of passengers we do. In the last 6 months I've flown out of airports serving 3X, 7X, 3X, and 4X our traffic, and my 2 flights out of Cleveland have taken the longest to get from the front door of the airport to the gate areas, and its not even close. My Cleveland times were about 45 and 70 minutes. At those 4 other airports the longest time was about 20-25 minutes, and that included going through passport/customs as I was leaving the Schengen area. Definitely a TSA issue, but it would help if the city of Cleveland were pro-active and figured out some way to make the queues make sense. Part of the problem is people who are not TSA pre getting in that line, and vice versa. It's well marked--if you are right at the entrance. But if the line stretches through the ticketing lobby, chaos ensues. Maybe they could form lines up through the bridge over to the short term parking garage?
June 1, 20241 yr The security checkpoint problem really seems to be caused by the layout of the terminal and how they have tried to shoehorn security between the gaps in the ticketing counters. The airport should build outward, over the current drop-off/pick-up lanes, to create more room for security operations between the ticket counters and the passenger terminals.
June 1, 20241 yr 5 hours ago, Foraker said: The airport should build outward, over the current drop-off/pick-up lanes, to create more room for security operations between the ticket counters and the passenger terminals. That is in the master plan, but I don't think it will happen until phase 2 or 3. Edited June 1, 20241 yr by LibertyBlvd
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