2 hours ago, YABO713 said:

Honestly this isn't meant to be sarcastic - I'm genuinely asking... 

 

But have any of you ever booked a flight based upon the facilities at the airport of departure? 

 

I've certainly made that decision re: operations (i.e. Laguardia vs. JFK in the past), but never facilities. 

 

For sure people who pick where a company locates its offices, people who plan events and conferences, etc. pay attention to this. Also, just public opinion in general. Everybody knows the worst airports and we have a hard enough time convincing people Cleveland is a great place to be.

Edited January 7Jan 7 by coneflower

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

You're correct as far as booking flights.

 

But the facilities make a first impression on incoming travelers.

 

They can also impact corporate decisions vis a vis locating.  When Society and Key merged the tower was the main reason they located in Cleveland but Hopkins having better facilities at the time (than Albany) was also a factor.

Are you sure it's not the fact that Hopkins had a hub? 

3 hours ago, YABO713 said:

Honestly this isn't meant to be sarcastic - I'm genuinely asking... 

 

But have any of you ever booked a flight based upon the facilities at the airport of departure? 

 

I've certainly made that decision re: operations (i.e. Laguardia vs. JFK in the past), but never facilities. 

A good point.  

 

But--in a town like Cleveland where there have been decades of bad press, never miss a chance to make a great first impression.   

19 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Are you sure it's not the fact that Hopkins had a hub? 

 

That as well.

14 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

You're correct as far as booking flights.

 

But the facilities make a first impression on incoming travelers.

 

They can also impact corporate decisions vis a vis locating.  When Society and Key merged the tower was the main reason they located in Cleveland but Hopkins having better facilities at the time (than Albany) was also a factor.

Yeah, this I don't think this is really true... I've traveled to many places with terrible airports, and I end up coming away with the impression that x city has a terrible airport. It has no impact on my impression of the city itself, nor has it ever for any traveler I've ever talked to. Conversely if the airport is nice the airport is nice. For the city to be nice the city has to be nice. Airports are generally so far from cities that I consider the first impression of the city when I leave the airport. 

 

By that logic the city should instead use the money to invest in and upgrade the Red Line (and maybe also Tower City). Which would do far more to improve impressions of the city. 

You can get away with a bad airport like the old Laguardia and Newark facilities did - because they at least had good service and, well, it was NYC.. you quickly forget...

 

Or you could have mid-level service and build a palace of a modern airport like they did in Indianapolis (and are doing in Columbus) where their whole aim was to elevate the impression of the city... - because though it doesn't matter to everyone, as is clear from comments on this board, it does matter to many people.

 

But, a region like NEO can't afford to have both a dated airport AND bad non-stop service (top 50 service in a top 20 region) - and that's exactly what it has. Due to the cards we've been dealt, and local leaders slow action, peer cities, as well as those with a million or more fewer people, have dozens more non-stop flights and far better facilities and I don't get why the CLE region seems to be okay with that. 

Edited January 8Jan 8 by eyehrtfood

13 hours ago, eyehrtfood said:

But, a region like NEO can't afford to have both a dated airport AND bad non-stop service (top 50 service in a top 20 region) - and that's exactly what it has. Due to the cards we've been dealt, and local leaders slow action, peer cities, as well as those with a million or more fewer people, have dozens more non-stop flights and far better facilities and I don't get why the CLE region seems to be okay with that. 

Yes, and I don't know why there's not more information.  Last major news, I saw, about the master plan is that it was sent to the FAA for approval.  This was about 2-3 years ago.  Other than the Sheraton getting demolished and the 5900 Cargo Rd. conversion for the expansion project offices, I've heard very little.  I wish the Powers That Be (Bibb, Francis) would provide regular updates on the Terminal expansion plan.  A good place for posting updates, IMHO, would be here:  https://clevelandairportmasterplan.com/

 

These updates should be quarterly or at least twice a year.

Maybe, someone here (at UO) could get an interview with airport management, and write a a progress article, just sayin'.

5 hours ago, DHubb said:

A good place for posting updates, IMHO, would be here:  https://clevelandairportmasterplan.com/

There have been no updates on that web site since 2021. I have submitted a few questions since then via the site's comments page, but have received no responses.

22 hours ago, Ethan said:

Yeah, this I don't think this is really true... I've traveled to many places with terrible airports, and I end up coming away with the impression that x city has a terrible airport. It has no impact on my impression of the city itself, nor has it ever for any traveler I've ever talked to. Conversely if the airport is nice the airport is nice. For the city to be nice the city has to be nice. Airports are generally so far from cities that I consider the first impression of the city when I leave the airport. 

 

By that logic the city should instead use the money to invest in and upgrade the Red Line (and maybe also Tower City). Which would do far more to improve impressions of the city. 

 

We can all have different opinions, but I disagree with this. If you step off the plane and walk into a bathroom that is nasty or wait 45 minutes for your suitcase, it's not a good impression. But bigger picture, why can't we have a nice airport, nice rail service to the airport and nice downtown? That is what frustrates me around here. Of course let's be budget conscious but we shouldn't have to accept subpar services and amenities.

 

Edit: Whoops @eyehrtfood wrote the same thing and better than me. Count this as a super thumbs up to what he/she said.

Edited January 9Jan 9 by coneflower

On 1/7/2025 at 11:57 PM, eyehrtfood said:

You can get away with a bad airport like the old Laguardia and Newark facilities did - because they at least had good service and, well, it was NYC.. you quickly forget...

 

Or you could have mid-level service and build a palace of a modern airport like they did in Indianapolis (and are doing in Columbus) where their whole aim was to elevate the impression of the city... - because though it doesn't matter to everyone, as is clear from comments on this board, it does matter to many people.

 

But, a region like NEO can't afford to have both a dated airport AND bad non-stop service (top 50 service in a top 20 region) - and that's exactly what it has. Due to the cards we've been dealt, and local leaders slow action, peer cities, as well as those with a million or more fewer people, have dozens more non-stop flights and far better facilities and I don't get why the CLE region seems to be okay with that. 

We agree and also with the PD for once on their editorial this week that we need a regional approach for the airport and our coveted sports franchises (and please throw in social services and transit).  Let's hold our noses and find a way for a regional sales tax increase to settle these needs. 

 

C-bus region just launched an $8 Billion transit plan (and other items) via their half percent cent sale tax increase.  We need to be just as bold soon as we fall further behind our current peers, otherwise we will quickly fall to the next lower tier (where we will again be outdone by others in the that peer group like Grand Rapids).

 

After voters approved a half-percent sales tax increase in November to fund the $8 billion LinkUS initiative, 2025 is shaping up to be a significant year for the Central Ohio Transit Authority. 

 

https://columbusunderground.com/2025-to-bring-new-sales-tax-new-bus-service-work-on-brt-line-bw1/

 

17 hours ago, urb-a-saurus said:

Maybe, someone here (at UO) could get an interview with airport management, and write a a progress article, just sayin'.

If anyone has a connection to someone in airport management, I'd be glad to do it.

15 minutes ago, DHubb said:

If anyone has a connection to someone in airport management, I'd be glad to do it.

 

Contact city government, it's very much a patronage thing.   

35 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Contact city government, it's very much a patronage thing.   

Ok, thanks!

Air Wisconsin, with 63 50-seat CRJs on hand, and American Airlines have terminated their partnership as of April 25th.  Chicago flights end on April 13th.  AW says they will survive flying charters and Essential Air Services (US subsidized routes).  That path, however, has been the road to bankruptcy court is many cases.  I wonder if CLE might see some new Milwaukee flights out of this eventually.

3 hours ago, Dougal said:

Air Wisconsin, with 63 50-seat CRJs on hand, and American Airlines have terminated their partnership as of April 25th.  Chicago flights end on April 13th.  AW says they will survive flying charters and Essential Air Services (US subsidized routes).  That path, however, has been the road to bankruptcy court is many cases.  I wonder if CLE might see some new Milwaukee flights out of this eventually.

I would regularly use direct flights to MKE. No one serves that route today and it’s brutal for me.  Fingers crossed. 

10,173,861!

A 305k increase in passengers is great! Not the 10.25 mil initially predicted but certainly better than the 10.04 mil update we got. I think that means we've hit PAL 1 for the modernization project (10.1 mil) as well.

From Luvcbus in the John Glenn Columbus International Airport thread:

Airport sells $1.2B in bonds for new terminal

"The Columbus Regional Airport Authority has sold $1.2billion in bonds to help pay for a new terminal at John Glenn Columbus International Airport, the authority announced Monday.

 

The $1.2billion in general airport revenue bonds were sold to investors after the airport’s initial $1billion bond offering was met with 'overwhelming demand,' according to a CRAA press release.

The airport authority received orders over four times the initial $1billion amount, so the authority increased the bond offering to $1.2billion.

 

The CRAA broke ground on the airport’s new terminal in December and plan to open it by 2029, The Dispatch previously reported.

 

The new terminal will have 36 gates, including one that can accommodate large international flights, and will be able to handle 13 million passengers per year."

 

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/local/2025/02/03/john-glenn-columbus-airport-1-2-billion-bonds-sold-john-glenn-columbus-airport-new-terminal/78188273007/

 

Does anyone know as to whether or not something like this is proposed or actually being done for the Hopkins terminal expansion project?

Edited February 5Feb 5 by DHubb

This seems like the start of a good idea, but it seems to me that operational control should at least be merged with county airport operations. 

City Council exploring possibility of shifting Cleveland Hopkins airport governance to independent authority

Published: Feb. 16, 2025

By Susan Glaser, cleveland.com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Members of Cleveland City Council are exploring the possibility of turning over the management of Cleveland Hopkins International Airport to an independent authority, in an effort to improve the operation of the city-owned facility.

 

...

 

[Council member and chair of the Transportation & Mobility  Committee, Kerry McCormick,] and fellow council member Charles Slife, who is vice chair of the Transportation Committee, recently directed staff to research the possibility of establishing an independent authority to provide oversight to the airport.

 

The authority could be structured in a number of different ways, but the most likely scenario would involve the city maintaining ownership of the airport but without day-to-day involvement in operations.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2025/02/city-council-exploring-possibility-of-shifting-cleveland-hopkins-airport-governance-to-independent-authority.html

On 2/16/2025 at 8:13 AM, Luke_S said:

This seems like the start of a good idea, but it seems to me that operational control should at least be merged with county airport operations. 

City Council exploring possibility of shifting Cleveland Hopkins airport governance to independent authority

Published: Feb. 16, 2025

By Susan Glaser, cleveland.com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Members of Cleveland City Council are exploring the possibility of turning over the management of Cleveland Hopkins International Airport to an independent authority, in an effort to improve the operation of the city-owned facility.

 

...

 

[Council member and chair of the Transportation & Mobility  Committee, Kerry McCormick,] and fellow council member Charles Slife, who is vice chair of the Transportation Committee, recently directed staff to research the possibility of establishing an independent authority to provide oversight to the airport.

 

The authority could be structured in a number of different ways, but the most likely scenario would involve the city maintaining ownership of the airport but without day-to-day involvement in operations.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2025/02/city-council-exploring-possibility-of-shifting-cleveland-hopkins-airport-governance-to-independent-authority.html

It's about time!!

43 minutes ago, DHubb said:

It's about time!!

I can see it now:

 

First, they will commission a 24 month feasibility study. 

 

Then, they will convene a special committee to review the results of the study, which includes four mandatory, public meetings to take place every 90 days to discuss the findings.

 

Then, there will be a 6 month open RFP phase for consulting firms to design the organizational structure of the new authority. The winning bid will then be subject to a 3 month comment period. 

 

1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

I can see it now:

 

First, they will commission a 24 month feasibility study. 

 

Then, they will convene a special committee to review the results of the study, which includes four mandatory, public meetings to take place every 90 days to discuss the findings.

 

Then, there will be a 6 month open RFP phase for consulting firms to design the organizational structure of the new authority. The winning bid will then be subject to a 3 month comment period. 

 

This is not only funny, but spot on as far as the truth goes...maybe even a longer timetable than you mentioned! 

1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

I can see it now:

 

First, they will commission a 24 month feasibility study. 

 

Then, they will convene a special committee to review the results of the study, which includes four mandatory, public meetings to take place every 90 days to discuss the findings.

 

Then, there will be a 6 month open RFP phase for consulting firms to design the organizational structure of the new authority. The winning bid will then be subject to a 3 month comment period. 

 

So you're basically saying that Jimmy's dome will be built next to the airport, will have outlived it's useful lifespan, and the Browns moved to Orange Beach Alabama before the airport management is ceded?  

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2025/02/frontier-airlines-announces-two-new-routes-from-cleveland-hopkins-airport.html

Frontier Airlines announces two new routes from Cleveland Hopkins airport

 

• Boston, begins May 22 (S/T/R)
• Nashville, begins May 23 (M/W/F)

Don't know why we aren't getting flights to unserved destinations but, whatever, I'll take an add any day

Edited February 18Feb 18 by Geowizical

I can't get too excited about new routes added by Frontier.  They don't seem to last very long.

20 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I can't get too excited about new routes added by Frontier.  They don't seem to last very long.

I like the low cost carriers, even though I don’t fly them, because they help keep prices in check on the airlines I prefer to fly. 

21 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I can't get too excited about new routes added by Frontier.  They don't seem to last very long.

Yupp! Frontier in particular has been a volatile hot mess all around the country with its routes.

I'm taking a chance and flying Frontier to Vegas next month.  It will be my first time on Frontier.

According to a poster on airliners.net via Frontier's flight schedule, F9 is adding back CLE-PHL starting June 2025, 3x weekly

 

No news reports yet on the resumption though. This would bring F9s total to 22 nonstop destinations.

Edited February 27Feb 27 by Geowizical

Flying out of CLE this morning--I see they have completely given up on the moving walkways on the bridge to the short term garage/orange lot.  They are being removed and filled with concrete.... 

 

 

On 2/17/2025 at 10:40 AM, YABO713 said:

I can see it now:

 

First, they will commission a 24 month feasibility study. 

 

Then, they will convene a special committee to review the results of the study, which includes four mandatory, public meetings to take place every 90 days to discuss the findings.

 

Then, there will be a 6 month open RFP phase for consulting firms to design the organizational structure of the new authority. The winning bid will then be subject to a 3 month comment period. 

 

 

Optimistic.

 

Airport management is too popular a place to locate the competency challenged friends and relatives of the powers that be.

6 hours ago, Cleburger said:

Flying out of CLE this morning--I see they have completely given up on the moving walkways on the bridge to the short term garage/orange lot.  They are being removed and filled with concrete.... 

 

 

My wife and I saw that traveling over the last few days. 

 

The walkways were only like 40 feet long and we both remarked how they were pretty pointless given their short length. Probably not worth the maintenance headache and likewise pointless to use given their brevity.

How are the restroom renovations coming along?

26 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

My wife and I saw that traveling over the last few days. 

 

The walkways were only like 40 feet long and we both remarked how they were pretty pointless given their short length. Probably not worth the maintenance headache and likewise pointless to use given their brevity.

I suspect that those walkways did not like the salt in their gears and the cold and moisture every winter.  A maintenance headache indeed.

2 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

How are the restroom renovations coming along?

I was on C concourse and the ones out on the banjo are still closed.   There is a sign near C11 (Ithink) for last restrooms, and of course, at 5:30 in the morning they had the mens room closed for cleaning.   No city union worker can make overtime to come in early...

cleveland.com says the parking lots are all full at the airport and that the off-site lots are close to full.  Spring break is said to be the reason.  It's good to see traffic at the airport holding up. February was down a little, but there was one less day in February this year, making the traffic flat.  Meanwhile, St. Louis reported a 7.6% decline in traffic for the same month. Ouch.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/2025/03/spring-break-headache-cleveland-hopkins-parking-lots-are-full-again.html

The proposed Dome site would be ideal for additional parking.  Just sayin'. 

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

The proposed Dome site would be ideal for additional parking.  Just sayin'. 

Jimmy won't let that happen around game days....lest the travelers pay $200 for that day... 

Someone has to park there the 350+ days of nonuse.

Terry Coyne's Linkedin has been a somewhat hot topic here vis a vis the approvals process in Cleveland.   I was showing someone the OPs and found this:

 

I hadn't heard that Moen moved because of the airport, but I'm not terribly plugged into the topic. Everything I've read is that the Chicago area gave tax incentives that the region couldn't match (nor were they really given a chance to by Moen's parent company). That being said, Terry is intentionally conflating several things to score easy social media points. Let's not sit here and pretend that O'Hare is any sort of objectively good airport to spend time in. It's a dump on par with old LGA. Large portions of it smell like sewage regularly, entire concourses have ceilings just falling apart and in desperate need of replacement. Gates have waiting areas that are far too small, so passengers regularly spill out in the main concourse while waiting and boarding. I could go on, but the fact is you, you fly in and out of O'Hare because you need to, not because you want to.

 

The thing O'Hare has that very few airports have is access and flight volume. Hopkins should and could keep working to bring in more flights, and sure the master plan will make it a better place to spend time, but until an airline decides to re-hub Hopkins, it will always face the same challenge vs hub cities.

1 hour ago, E Rocc said:

Terry Coyne's Linkedin has been a somewhat hot topic here vis a vis the approvals process in Cleveland.   I was showing someone the OPs and found this:

 

We like the regional sales tax idea as a moonshot to address the regions serious needs but should go big via 0.50% regional tax increase with 0.25% earmarked toward transportation and sports (airport, transit, browns, soccer, etc.) and let each county decide how to allocate the other 0.25% specific to each county's needs (ex., social services safety net, courthouse, etc.,).

I agree the relative lack of flights is the airport's actual problem. Everything else is a distraction. Very few people are choosing end destinations because of the airport, maybe layover points, but not the final destination. A company may make decision based on having a "good" airport, but good is always going to primarily have to do with number of direct flights and associated metrics. Other things like nice restrooms, plentiful outlets and good wifi help, and make some difference, but it's on the margins. 

 

Also, as an aside, I think our various levels of local government receive enough money, it's more of a question of priorities and effectiveness. That's more of a question for another thread, but I'm convinced that the powers that be could polish up our mid size airport with existing tax revenue. What they should actually be doing though in my opinion is subsidizing more flights like the one to Dublin. I think getting up to three daily transatlantic flights would make more of a difference in companies relocation calculations than polishing up the airport will. Or alternatively get a flight going to South America. 

 

In short, improving this map will make more of a difference than better terminals. 

 

Completely agree, Ethan.  I know several people who moved out of Cleveland because regular travel for their jobs meant they needed an airport with more nonstop destinations.  

 

When we get our remote workforce together in Cleveland a few times per year, at least half of the group has to connect somewhere.  

 

The airport has often touted "charging the airlines" for capital improvements, but that basically serves as a barrier to flight expansion by increasing prices and making route expansion more risky for airlines. 

39 minutes ago, ML11 said:

The airport has often touted "charging the airlines" for capital improvements, but that basically serves as a barrier to flight expansion by increasing prices and making route expansion more risky for airlines. 

I get what you’re saying, but that is the model at every airport in the US.
 

Flight subsidies, or rather minimum revenue guarantees, are the tool that’s typically used. Our problem is, I’m assuming, we’re not offering enough.

 

Aer Lingus for example (from CLE.com):

JobsOhio, which was largely responsible for putting together the incentive package, contributed the vast majority of the $11.8 million revenue guarantee (over three years), paying $9.4 million into the fund.

Cleveland, meanwhile, pitched in $600,000 and Cuyahoga County contributed $825,000. Destination Cleveland, the Greater Cleveland Partnership and Team NEO contributed the rest.

Meanwhile, Aer Lingus traffic on CLE-DUB is down from 5,025 last March to 4,352 this March - a 10% drop in load factors.  I wouldn't be surprised if the planned growth to 6 weekly flights in the summer gets trimmed.

^ Perhaps due to Easter being in March last year?

Since awkwardness in connecting from an incoming international flight to a US domestic flight has been a topic of discussion, I thought I would post this:

 

"U.S. Customs and Border Protection said this week it is working with American Airlines to test a new procedure that could save time and aggravation for inbound travelers who are connecting to a U.S. domestic flight at their international arrival airport. Called the International Remote Baggage Screening initiative, it would eliminate the need for arriving passengers to recheck their bags onto their domestic connection "unless specifically referred by CBP for further inspection," the agency said. Instead, the bags would be transferred directly from the international flight to the airline operating the domestic connection."

 

Source for the whole article:  An SFGATE article posted on MSN.com 

 

It also mentions another initiative to be tested that will eliminate the second TSA screening at the connecting airport.  Hope!