This is a non-post.....

 

Per OAG 8/20/2010, there were no scheduled airline changes for CLE.

Looks like CLE will start to get some Delta mainline service finally!

 

I'm seeing 1x MD-88 starting on 8 Sept 2010, flight 1261 CLE-ATL (the first flight out of the day at 6:30AM, the rest are still CRJ)

 

MSP, DTW, JFK, CVG, MEM remain all CRJ

Interesting thread, mostly regarding regional/mainline service. I didn't realize I was the anomaly in preferring the smaller regional jet to mainline service. I've always found it much more comfortable, faster, and convenient to fly on small planes, and try to book my travel on them when possible. It's so much nicer when only 30-40 people are trying to board a plane. Plus you get the added perk of not having to worry about finding space to put your roller bag as they are all valet checked free of charge. That speeds up the boarding process even further as everyone just planes and sits down. Positive flip side is that deplaning is just as fast, everyone just gets up and walks out and your carry-on is waiting for you in the jetway. There's nothing worse than being stuck in the back of a mainline jet and waiting 10-12 minutes to finally deplane. And if you're lucky, you get a 1 seat aisle, roomy and comfortable.

 

I think that's what has always been great about CLE. You can land in on an ERJ, deplane in 5 minutes, walk 2 minutes to the rapid station, board and be Downtown for work in 25 minutes without ever stepping outside.

Per OAG 8/27/2010, the latest scheduled airline changes for CLE are below.

 

Read: airline, route, current frequencies per day to future frequencies per day, and the effective date of change:

 

WN: CLE-BNA 1.7>1.9, around Feb 2011

WN: CLE-BWI 3.7>2.8, around Feb 2011

WN: CLE-LAS 0.9>1.0, around Feb 2011

WN: CLE-MDW 6.0>5.7, around Feb 2011

WN: CLE-STL 1.4>0.9, around Feb 2011

 

Some slight decreases. Not a bad thing--the less yields are lowered by an LCC, the more attractive the city is to UA/CO, in this time of unknowns.

 

No other route or frequency additions/deletions from any of the other carriers at CLE.

Well here we go.......

Continental document suggests huge cuts in Hopkins flights

Published: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 11:10 PM    Updated: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 11:37 PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Documents presented in a federal court Tuesday suggest that Cleveland Hopkins International Airport could be in line for huge cuts in daily flights in the merger between Continental and United airlines.

 

A preliminary analysis by Continental said that flights on its mainline jets at Hopkins could drop by more than half, from 42 average daily departures to 20, under that scenario.

 

Share Also, the analysis suggests that flights on regional partners that serve Continental -- which today account for about four out of five departures -- would plunge from a daily average of 168 to 13.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/08/continental_document_suggest_h.html#incart_rh

 

I think we all knew this was coming, but that's far more drastic than I had imagined

Where would the regional jets go, Chicago?

Damn that's a huge hit...

worst case: who could fill the empty gates.  Jet Blue?  Southwest?

http://portal.cleveland-oh.gov/PRPortlet/document/download/Statement%20MFJ%20Continental%20Commitment%20final.pdf?id=7909

 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

September 1, 2010

A STATEMENT FROM MAYOR FRANK G. JACKSON

 

“I spoke with Continental President and CEO Jeff Smisek early this morning at which time he reaffirmed his commitment to our community and his support of our efforts to provide quality air service to Cleveland and the region.

 

The City of Cleveland, local business leaders and stakeholders have been working with Continental Airlines with one goal in mind; to retain jobs and to continue to provide quality air service.

 

While this is an important relationship to maintain, I have also said we will and must strategically position Cleveland Hopkins International Airport to be competitive regardless of what is happening in the airline industry.

 

We have made significant strides to ensure that we are a viable option to all airline carriers. As we continue our work in the coming months, we will continue to keep the public updated on our progress.”

 

- 30 -

worst case: who could fill the empty gates. Jet Blue? Southwest?

 

You won't be able to fill them all - without a hub, you won't have all the regional jets flying in and out.

I, too, am very sad about what might become of Cleveland. I grew up flying CO out of Cleveland and it's truly a great airline. I wish better for my hometown and for CO's generally great employees. I will say this though...at least CO is being upfront about it. Many people feel DL led Cincinnati on while gradually taking the floor out from underneath and refusing to acknowledge they were de-hubbing CVG. If the cuts are really as bad as it sounds, hopefully CLE leadership can be proactive and not put all their eggs in one basket here.

 

The other question is who will come in to pick up the slack and give Cleveland a chance....I do hope that we see more mainline DL metal in here, I think WN will do a little expanding on key routes (PHX and MDW) and I wonder what will happen with AirTran's ops at CAK. I mean, there's endless possibilities here and Cleveland is well positioned both in terms of location and RASM for new growth opportunities.

 

 

 

 

You're correct. It isn't just Cleveland. Delta de-hubbed CVG. USAir de-hubbed PIT. Just those two cities have seen their O/D flights drop by up to 30 percent since 2007. I'm sure some Clevelanders will blame our city and take it personally, as if we're somehow at fault. Instead this is reflective of a structural change in the airline industry.

Well here we go.......

Continental document suggests huge cuts in Hopkins flights

Published: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 11:10 PM   Updated: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 11:37 PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Documents presented in a federal court Tuesday suggest that Cleveland Hopkins International Airport could be in line for huge cuts in daily flights in the merger between Continental and United airlines.

 

A preliminary analysis by Continental said that flights on its mainline jets at Hopkins could drop by more than half, from 42 average daily departures to 20, under that scenario.

 

Share Also, the analysis suggests that flights on regional partners that serve Continental -- which today account for about four out of five departures -- would plunge from a daily average of 168 to 13.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/08/continental_document_suggest_h.html#incart_rh

 

 

What WASN'T mentioned is that this report was compiled BEFORE the merger talks even began.  What WASN'T mentioned is that this report ALSO contained scenarios where CLE stays the same and one where service is increased.

 

This report was obtained during the "discovery" process of a lawsuite and used by the litigator to his advantage.  The lawyer who leaked this report is suing to block the merger.  Take this leak for what it is.

 

I don't know CALs long-term committment to CLE but current yields and RASM indicate that the cuts stated are a worst case scenario and not the reality.

Amazing. This is why I hate the media these days. Their inability to provide context and instead go for the scare is infuriating.

Amazing. This is why I hate the media these days. Their inability to provide context and instead go for the scare is infuriating.

 

Hasn't that been the Plain Dealers MO for decades now?

It's been the MO for too many in the mainstream media (MSM) for a long time. I'm getting so angered by it I just changed my message signature in protest.

 

Back to Hopkins.....

^ Who is that quote by, Sarah Palin?

 

The report may have been taken out of context, but my bet is it turns out to be not far from reality.

^ Who is that quote by, Sarah Palin?

 

The report may have been taken out of context, but my bet is it turns out to be not far from reality.

 

Sarah Palin??? Don't be a jackass. The media is too smart, open-minded and worldy even for a twit like her. And considering how narrow the media is getting, let alone incapable of finding the heart of a story, that's saying a lot. I used to work as a reporter for 15 years so I've got a little bit of experience here with this. My new job attracts media coverage and I have never been so frustrated with the media in my life. It's become increasingly clear to me that I'm going to have write all my quotes myself and the media is going to have to take them or erroneously attribute a no-comment to me.

You have to admit it sounds like something SP would say. :-)

 

Not saying you're wrong.

I wouldn't know. I don't pay attention to her.

 

Hopkins, Hopkins....

OK, now the PD is being comically inept rather than just admitting it f$&ked up. Continental's CEO doesn't have to clarify a damn thing, the PD does. It needs to acknowledge that it oversold the big cut in flights as a done deal, rather than this being just one of many options...

 

Continental Airlines CEO Jeff Smisek told to clarify testimony about possible Cleveland flight cuts

Published: Wednesday, September 01, 2010, 9:34 PM

Alison Grant, The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Potentially conflicting statements from Continental Airlines left a haze Wednesday over the future of air service in Cleveland.

 

Documents introduced in federal court in San Francisco indicate that flights at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport could be dramatically curtailed after Continental merges with United Airlines.

 

But Wednesday, Continental's chief executive officer affirmed the airline's commitment to Cleveland and explained that Continental also analyzed several other scenarios before deciding in May to merge.

 

"Other simulations showed Cleveland maintaining its size and others showed it growing," CEO Jeff Smisek said in a statement released by the airline.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/09/continental_airlines_ceo_jeff_smisek_told_to_clarify_testimony_about_possible_cleveland_flight_cuts.html

KJP, you are a newspaper man, newspapers like all media companies are about 1 thing, profit. With this headline "Continental document suggests huge cuts in Hopkins flights" do i feel the PD "f$&ked up", no. Any educated person can deduct from the "suggest" portion of the title that the ensuing article is pure speculation and "hype" driven. I'm sorry, I understand that Cleveland.bomb typically represents a negative POV in what it reports, however, as one who deplores that style of reporting, you don't need to "hop on that bandwagon to defeat it". In the long run it makes YOU lose credibility. Keep in mind, PD reports that way because they know that's the tone the majority of their readers wanna hear, whether right or wrong. And this is from a constant PD critic.

incidentally, none of the major financial publications/blogs are even reporting this story......, yet

I was going to say it, but thank you ogibbigo, I agree TOTALLY. 

Ogibbigo, what you don't know is that some of us who were in the media actually tried to be responsible and in-depth in pursuing the truth when researching and writing articles. There were some of my colleagues who followed the "if it bleeds, it leads" mantra, but when I started out, it was pretty rare. And I've been in transportation advocacy even longer than I was in the media, so I watched media stories about transportation pretty closely and was a pretty tough customer to satisfy in the 80s and 90s, too. But still I thought most media tried to be fair and dug deeper into a story. I respected journalists.

 

MD88PILOT got it right that the more respected publications which have professional, interested and broad-minded journalists and which deal with complicated news stories like this haven't touched this story. They are likely taking some time to see what the real story is, or even if there actually is a story, rather than extracting some small part of it out of context.

 

And willyboy, of course you would find fault with my premise. You stalk me here, wait to pounce and then take a contrarian view. If you were tedolph, I'd be Mayor Frank Jackson to you. You are really creepying me out, girl.

Glad you brought up Mayor Jackson JKP. 

 

Indeed this is another example of Mayor Jackson's failed leadership. 

 

I am not sure how but am sure that it must be! 

Its cloudy today

 

Indeed this is another example of Mayor Jackson's failed leadership. 

 

I am not sure how but am sure that it must be!

Apparently it's jackass day today. Another locked thread, folks.

Breaking news from Crain's Cleveland Business...

 

Continental agrees to keep Cleveland Hopkins hub for at least five years

 

The airline, which is in the process of merging with United Airlines, would have to pay $20 million in damages should it not keep its agreement with the Ohio Attorney General's office.

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20100913/FREE/100919958

A little more from Ideastream:  http://www.wcpn.org/WCPN/news/32016

its good news!

90% of current flights for two years, or cuts roughly equal to what other hubs are cutting

 

Cleveland.com

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/09/continental_united_airlines_agree_to_keep_at_least_90_of_flights_at_cleveland_hopkins_for_2_years_after_merger.html

 

its good news!

90% of current flights for two years, or cuts roughly equal to what other hubs are cutting

 

Cleveland.com

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/09/continental_united_airlines_agree_to_keep_at_least_90_of_flights_at_cleveland_hopkins_for_2_years_after_merger.html

 

 

This what CAL would have done anyway....  The fact that they signed any kind of agreement tells me that they had no intention of systematically drawing the hub...

 

Now it's up to Clevelanders to use it.

 

The sched was cut back in 2008 and hasn't really been touched much since.  What does that tell you???  They make money in CLE despite a recession.  They are not going to give up captured revenue.  True, they could increase capacity by using larger aircraft and decreasing sched's somewhat.

 

The allowance for sched reduction makes sense.  If the economy takns further it gives them an exit. 

 

In other developments, there is some credible news that one of the CAL regional participants is going to open a Q400 maintenance base in CLE

 

In other developments, there is some credible news that one of the CAL regional participants is going to open a Q400 maintenance base in CLE

 

What does this mean exactly?

 

In other developments, there is some credible news that one of the CAL regional participants is going to open a Q400 maintenance base in CLE

 

What does this mean exactly?

JOBS!!!

 

right?

 

The Q400 is a turbo prop FYI. It would seem to me that the addition of a maintenance facility would indicate that we can expect the Q400 and other turbo props to begin taking over for the regional jets as has been discussed in other threads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q400

One other point to make about this Agreement....

 

While the financial viability of the CLE Hub is proprietary to CAL, the AG did see the financials.  While he cannot comment directly, he did say that based on Ohio's examination of the data, the hub is nowhere near the financial force majeur that would trigger drastic cuts or closure.

Good news.  But I just hope this is not prolonging the inevitable.  I hope that Cordray had the foresight to include a "me too" clause in the agreement since the deals with the other hubs are not finalized. 

 

Whatever happened to the plans to extend the terminal? 

 

Also, it makes me nervous that O'Hare is adding two runways that should be done by the time this agreement expires.

Good news. But I just hope this is not prolonging the inevitable. I hope that Cordray had the foresight to include a "me too" clause in the agreement since the deals with the other hubs are not finalized.

 

Whatever happened to the plans to extend the terminal?

 

Also, it makes me nervous that O'Hare is adding two runways that should be done by the time this agreement expires.

 

The O'Hare expansion makes me nervous as well.  Maybe MD88 or someone else with aviation experience can answer this question for me though.  With the additional runways and added terminal space O'Hare will be able to land more planes and handle more planes on the ground.  So one would expect that delays due to terminal/ground congestion would decrease, but will O'Hare reach the limit of what the FAA will allow them to handle in the Chicago airspace? 

^isn't adding more runways equivalent to expanding highway lanes to reduce congestion?  wouldn't this run into the same problem?

I have heard, though, that United has been hesitant about expansion at O'Hare in the past.  Plus, the new runway and terminal space is surely going to be sought after by the other airlines.

I have heard, though, that United has been hesitant about expansion at O'Hare in the past.  Plus, the new runway and terminal space is surely going to be sought after by the other airlines.

 

Apparently there are no airlines for the western terminal and UA and AA don't want to spend money on a terminal that other airlines will be using.

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/07/ohare-expansion-seeks-mor_n_707699.html

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20100616/NEWS02/200038587/uniteds-tilton-tells-congress-parts-of-ohare-expansion-still-worth-pursuing

http://www.cmemarkets.com/v3/2010/09/12/chicago-hopes-to-borrow-another-1-billion-for-ohare-expansion/

I have heard, though, that United has been hesitant about expansion at O'Hare in the past.  Plus, the new runway and terminal space is surely going to be sought after by the other airlines.

 

IF CAL keeps a hub at CLE it will be because there is a business case to have it.  O'Hare can expand all it wants.  The ability to absorb capacity doesn't mean hat it's needed.  Remember:  A hub works only works if the hub generates the O&D necessary at a yield to make money.  There's a reason that the fares at another hub were exceptionally high:  LOW O&D that had to be made up by increasing yields.

 

CAL has kept CLE open through some difficult economic times.  Simply put IT MAKES MONEY!!!!  It's not a releiver for EWR or ORD.  The concept of a "releif hub" is an urban ledgend lol.  IF CAL wanted out of CLE it could have closed it or really downsized it PRIOR to any merger announcement.  Or it could have simply paid Ohio the penalty of $20MM and left. 

 

The hub is here.  USE IT

 

 

 

 

 

Some talk on Cleveland and Cincy changes/differences: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-14/cleveland-bids-to-avert-cincinnati-flight-cuts-with-ual-continental-accord.html

 

I like the last plug about Cleveland having a lower unemployment rate than the national average.

Some talk on Cleveland and Cincy changes/differences: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-14/cleveland-bids-to-avert-cincinnati-flight-cuts-with-ual-continental-accord.html

 

I like the last plug about Cleveland having a lower unemployment rate than the national average.

 

this quote is very important and speaks to exactly what MC88pilot has been saying all along

“We’ve always thought that Cleveland was a stronger market” than Cincinnati, Smith said. More than 70 percent of Cleveland air traffic is driven by passengers starting or ending a trip there, compared with 15 percent for Cincinnati, he said. 

Of course, the reporter then cites an absolutely irrelevant stat, the population of the center city, rather than the MSA, CSA, or DMA population

this quote is very important and speaks to exactly what MC88pilot has been saying all along

“We’ve always thought that Cleveland was a stronger market” than Cincinnati, Smith said. More than 70 percent of Cleveland air traffic is driven by passengers starting or ending a trip there, compared with 15 percent for Cincinnati, he said.

 

It's that guy's job to talk out of his ass and hype up CLE. Those numbers are outdated, anyway.

 

http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/business/stories/2010/09/19/ohio-airports-art-g239trvv-10919gfx-ohio-airports-chart-eps-large.jpg

 

CVG now has 14% greater O&D, and yet still has 9% more costly fares.

this quote is very important and speaks to exactly what MC88pilot has been saying all along

“We’ve always thought that Cleveland was a stronger market” than Cincinnati, Smith said. More than 70 percent of Cleveland air traffic is driven by passengers starting or ending a trip there, compared with 15 percent for Cincinnati, he said. 

 

It's that guy's job to talk out of his ass and hype up CLE. Those numbers are outdated, anyway.

 

http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/business/stories/2010/09/19/ohio-airports-art-g239trvv-10919gfx-ohio-airports-chart-eps-large.jpg

 

CVG now has 14% greater O&D, and yet still has 9% more costly fares.

 

Why would he hype of CLE when he works for DELTA?

“To an economy like Cleveland, that kind of stability is critical in terms of helping us rebound from this economic downturn,” Ricky Smith, the city’s airport director, said today in a telephone interview.

 

He doesn't. He's the city's airport director.

“To an economy like Cleveland, that kind of stability is critical in terms of helping us rebound from this economic downturn,” Ricky Smith, the city’s airport director, said today in a telephone interview.

 

He doesn't. He's the city's airport director.

 

Not him...i thought you were talking about MD88PILOT

 

In that case, RS is right to say that.  In the chart you post please point to O&D passenger figures.

To an economy like Cleveland, that kind of stability is critical in terms of helping us rebound from this economic downturn, Ricky Smith, the citys airport director, said today in a telephone interview.

 

He doesn't. He's the city's airport director.

 

Not him...i thought you were talking about MD88PILOT

 

In that case, RS is right to say that. In the chart you post please point to O&D passenger figures.

 

Comparing CVG to CLE  and the relationship of DAL and CAL to each city is like 

this quote is very important and speaks to exactly what MC88pilot has been saying all along

Weve always thought that Cleveland was a stronger market than Cincinnati, Smith said. More than 70 percent of Cleveland air traffic is driven by passengers starting or ending a trip there, compared with 15 percent for Cincinnati, he said.

 

It's that guy's job to talk out of his ass and hype up CLE. Those numbers are outdated, anyway.

 

http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/business/stories/2010/09/19/ohio-airports-art-g239trvv-10919gfx-ohio-airports-chart-eps-large.jpg

 

CVG now has 14% greater O&D, and yet still has 9% more costly fares.

 

Why would he hype of CLE when he works for DELTA?

 

I'm not hyping CLE in as much as I was trying to explain the why the fares at CVG will remain relatively high.  A lower O&D and price elastic consumers will see to that.  Having said that, CVG workd for DAL and while it may shrink a bit, the hub is there to stay.