this quote is very important and speaks to exactly what MC88pilot has been saying all along

Weve always thought that Cleveland was a stronger market than Cincinnati, Smith said. More than 70 percent of Cleveland air traffic is driven by passengers starting or ending a trip there, compared with 15 percent for Cincinnati, he said.

 

It's that guy's job to talk out of his ass and hype up CLE. Those numbers are outdated, anyway.

 

http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/business/stories/2010/09/19/ohio-airports-art-g239trvv-10919gfx-ohio-airports-chart-eps-large.jpg

 

CVG now has 14% greater O&D, and yet still has 9% more costly fares.

 

Not seeing O&D in that figure. I'll post it for everyone to see.

 

Isn't the 80% at CVG the percentage of passengers carried by Delta? The 64% at CLE the percent carried by Continental? I mean... I don't think Dayton has only 25% O&D...

 

this quote is very important and speaks to exactly what MC88pilot has been saying all along

“We’ve always thought that Cleveland was a stronger market” than Cincinnati, Smith said. More than 70 percent of Cleveland air traffic is driven by passengers starting or ending a trip there, compared with 15 percent for Cincinnati, he said. 

 

It's that guy's job to talk out of his ass and hype up CLE. Those numbers are outdated, anyway.

 

http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/business/stories/2010/09/19/ohio-airports-art-g239trvv-10919gfx-ohio-airports-chart-eps-large.jpg

 

CVG now has 14% greater O&D, and yet still has 9% more costly fares.

 

Not seeing O&D in that figure.  I'll post it for everyone to see. 

 

Isn't the 80% at CVG the percentage of passengers carried by Delta?  The 64% at CLE the percent carried by Continental?  I mean... I don't think Dayton has only 25% O&D...

 

 

(the total number of) Originating and departing passengers and percent of passengers for said carrier are two different things.

“To an economy like Cleveland, that kind of stability is critical in terms of helping us rebound from this economic downturn,” Ricky Smith, the city’s airport director, said today in a telephone interview.

 

He doesn't. He's the city's airport director.

 

Not him...i thought you were talking about MD88PILOT

 

In that case, RS is right to say that.  In the chart you post please point to O&D passenger figures.

 

Yeah, I misread the chart. I realized when I saw the 28% for CMH and that was obviously not O&D. My apologies.

 

Anyway, all of MD88's conclusions hinge on his own personal analysis of proprietary data which he can't share. He might have insider info, but when we can't check for ourselves, it's hardly convincing. Meanwhile, I've pointed to Googleable data which would seem to say the opposite, without making the assumption that an average-fare data plot would suddenly get much denser right where said Googleable data ends. (This is what he claims his proprietary data shows.) That's entirely possible, but it's not what one would logically predict from the data available.

 

As for Ricky Smith...who wouldn't take his words with a grain of salt?

“To an economy like Cleveland, that kind of stability is critical in terms of helping us rebound from this economic downturn,” Ricky Smith, the city’s airport director, said today in a telephone interview.

 

He doesn't. He's the city's airport director.

 

Not him...i thought you were talking about MD88PILOT

 

In that case, RS is right to say that.  In the chart you post please point to O&D passenger figures.

 

Yeah, I misread the chart. I realized when I saw the 28% for CMH and that was obviously not O&D. My apologies.

 

Anyway, all of MD88's conclusions hinge on his own personal analysis of proprietary data which he can't share. He might have insider info, but when we can't check for ourselves, it's hardly convincing. Meanwhile, I've pointed to Googleable data which would seem to say the opposite, without making the assumption that an average-fare data plot would suddenly get much denser right where said Googleable data ends. (This is what he claims his proprietary data shows.) That's entirely possible, but it's not what one would logically predict from the data available.

 

As for Ricky Smith...who wouldn't take his words with a grain of salt?

 

My previous thread today wasn't based on anything proprietary.  CVG has "relatively" higher fares because its O&D is lower.  Plus the avg CVG consumer is obviously more price elastic if they are travelling to SDF or CMH to catch a flight.  Don't forget you incur actual and opportunity costs if you drive 100 miles to catch a flight.  Keep in mind that this all relative. If you take the mean and not the average I suggest that you will find that CVG's airfares were not all that out of whack.  In other words, throw out the highest and lowest CVG airfares and then take the average.  CLE's airfares are relatively lower because of a higher O&D and nearby airport with not an insignificant level of LCC traffic.  Indeed the actual and opportunity cost for an eastside CLE resident is probably equal if they decide to use CAK. 

So now we have another combination:  Airtran, which is not at Hopkins, and Southwest, which is. 

^That will likely have a bigger impact, good or bad, on CAK... I would guess.

A Continental news release dated 10/21 indicates that the merged airlines are adding new routes from their hub cities "in 2011."  I got excited (sound of fanfare).  Then I read further.  Cleveland Hopkins gets: restored service to (sound of buzzer) Cincinnati.  The big winners appear to be IAH and IAD.  Check it out at Continental.COM.

So now we have another combination: Airtran, which is not at Hopkins, and Southwest, which is.

Southwest is (has) taken over the old Northwest counters.  Could this be a sign of things to come? 

They are taking over the entire west, I tells ya

 

 

:)

So now we have another combination: Airtran, which is not at Hopkins, and Southwest, which is.

Southwest is (has) taken over the old Northwest counters.   Could this be a sign of things to come?

 

So they are now in concourse C? Concourse B is god awful.

I haven't been down Concourse B in years. I think it was the last time I flew to Chicago on SWA in 2004 or 2005.

Are you referring to the former NW ticket counters which are next to SW, as opposed to the gates?  I figure that the NW business would have moved to the DL counters with the merger, leaving them open.  Did CO take any of that space? 

 

IIRC, on  concourse C, there was one old NW gate left unused, and CO has everything else, for now (hehe).   

I dunno about SW "expanding" that much.  They pulled the one nonstop to STL starting after the holidays despite that those flights are almost always completely booked.

United Airlines CEO Smisek says Cleveland must 'earn its hub status every day'

By JAY MILLER

3:12 pm, November 10, 2010

 

United Continental Holdings Inc. CEO Jeff Smisek delivered a message to the business community of Cleveland today with warmth and affection for the city, which has had a long relationship as a hub for the pre-merger Continental Airlines.

 

...

 

See http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20101110/FREE/101119982

Here's the PD article on this...of course their lead into the story is a bit more negative:

 

Cleveland needs to prove that its airport can be profitable, United CEO Jeff Smisek says

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland needs to prove that its airport can be profitable for the newly merged Continental and United airlines, Executive Jeff Smisek said Wednesday.

 

"God does not come from on high and grant you hub status," he said in remarks to a luncheon gathering at the Jones Day law firm.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/11/cleveland_needs_to_prove_that_its_airport_can_be_profitable_united_ceo_jeff_smisek_says.html

Saw a blurb on Cleveland.Com this morning and confirmed with our Ops that the PIT-CDG flight will continue after the subsidy runs out this spring.  In fact, the frequency will go from 5X weekly to daily.  They must be selling premium seats well to continue the service considering it's all O&D.

 

 

What does that mean for Hopkins?

What does that mean for Hopkins?

 

Nothing.

 

Except we should be going after more carries with the MM/CC opening soon.

What does that mean for Hopkins?

 

Nothing.

 

What it means is that the biz community and individuals must step up and buy the premium seats.  CLE has transatlantic demand.  However, it seems even with a non-stop, people fly other airlines and make connections.  A hub comes with a premium price.  If you don't pay for it, you will lose it.  However, i think Smisek in the thread above is not being honest.  if CLE were not at least marginaly profitable, CAL would have left years ago.  He says that they lost alot of money here.  My guess is they lost alot of money at the other hubs too.

 

Except we should be going after more carries with the MM/CC opening soon.

I would take a direct flight at a premium any day over a connection. Who wouldn't? Unless the price gap is well over a hundred dollars, the trouble/risk of delay/luggage issues aren't worth it.

 

I'd like to see a direct flight added somewhere else overseas. Either restore London or add Hong Kong or something. (I confess I have no idea what the demand trends towards)

PIT wants CLE folks to drive there to use their trans-atlantic service, thus PIT benefits from CLE losing its service and can show better numbers at CLE's expense. DON'T DO IT!

Yes, why give Pittsburgh business anyway at the expense of our hub? True we don't have any transatlantic flights but, for the sake of keeping our hub, maybe connecting to NYC or elsewhere would be better for Cleveland as a whole.

Here's an interesting article regarding future changes to hopkins.

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/future-hopkins-plan-displayed-discussed

Here's an interesting article regarding future changes to hopkins.

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/future-hopkins-plan-displayed-discussed

 

this seems like a re-hash of the "Master Plan" some 20 years ago or so...  Quite simply, they should have lengthened 5R/24L to the 11,250 ft they originally talked about and built a new FIS facility.  Consourse upgrades also.

I'm wondering what the long-term effects of CAK siphoning business from Hopkins will be on our hub status. CAK actively advertises against Hopkins (whether directly or indirectly) even though they will flatly deny it.

 

Competition and a free-market economy is vital, of course. But I just hope that the folks in charge of CAK understand that maintaining a hub at Hopkins is vital not only for Cleveland but also for Akron, Canton, and all of NE Ohio.

I'm wondering what the long-term effects of CAK siphoning business from Hopkins will be on our hub status. CAK actively advertises against Hopkins (whether directly or indirectly) even though they will flatly deny it.

 

Competition and a free-market economy is vital, of course. But I just hope that the folks in charge of CAK understand that maintaining a hub at Hopkins is vital not only for Cleveland but also for Akron, Canton, and all of NE Ohio.

Much like the city of Cleveland, Hopkins needs to understand that it's customer's are not a captive audience, and that we live in Capitalism...  If they don't want to lose business, then make necessary investments (lengthen a runway, improve check-in area, concourse, etc.) to maintain or attract new business, it's really very simple..  CAK making improvements or advertising against them should be the least of their concern.

I'm wondering what the long-term effects of CAK siphoning business from Hopkins will be on our hub status. CAK actively advertises against Hopkins (whether directly or indirectly) even though they will flatly deny it.

 

Competition and a free-market economy is vital, of course. But I just hope that the folks in charge of CAK understand that maintaining a hub at Hopkins is vital not only for Cleveland but also for Akron, Canton, and all of NE Ohio.

Much like the city of Cleveland, Hopkins needs to understand that it's customer's are not a captive audience, and that we live in Capitalism...  If they don't want to lose business, then make necessary investments (lengthen a runway, improve check-in area, concourse, etc.) to maintain or attract new business, it's really very simple..  CAK making improvements or advertising against them should be the least of their concern.

 

What makes you think the airport director doesn't understand that?  The airport cannot just length a runway, the FAA determines if they can and cannot do that.  They can propose but the FAA has final say.

 

The other areas yes, but it comes at a cost and who gets passed on that cost?  Are you willing to pay more PSF's for that?

On the airport runway, what I remember reading is that, after all of the Abrams Creek brouhaha, they lengthened the original runway to almost 10,000' and delayed the extension to 11,250'.  When Director Smith came aboard, he revisited the extension, and threw it out at that time, because the cost estimates came in "too high."  I am thinking $38M?

 

On the Smisek lecture, whenever I saw articles about the LGW, CDG, and LHR non-stops, they would always say something to the effect that CO would not disclose the financial performance of these routes, but there were often anecdotal statements in the articles that said the routes were doing well.  This was the first time I remember a CO official saying point blank that the CLE hub lost money.  As MTS pointed out above, there is really not much context around that statement, so you don't know if Hopkins was unique in that.  As MD88pilot said above, CO can't be doing that badly, as they are still at CLE.  However, the financial numbers and business strategy that made CLE viable for CO alone, may not pan out for the CO-UA combination.  There may be better ways to do it.  The Smisek lecture was not unlike earlier lectures from Gordon Bethune, among other things, chastising local business people for running to CAK to fly to New York etc for a cheaper fare, and stating that NEO needed to support the hub.  Smisek also said that Cleveland had not made money, but CO "stood by" us.  If we were not performing before, it is hard to see, with the city not growing, how we would perform two years from now, especially in the larger world of the new United.  I keep thinking of that paper brought out in the San Francisco suit, the one they later said was a recession scenario.

 

By the way, do people here consider CLE a real hub, or a HINO?

 

PS that news that PIT is retaining the CDG flight sans subsidy with no hub felt like a punch in the gut.  If they can do it...............

Oh, CO announced service from ORD to FLL and PBI, and from DEN to FLL, routes that have to be covered by UA to "complement" service to those destinations from IAH, EWR, and CLE.  Not sure if this signifies anything other than some sort of pre-combination alignment.

Oh, CO announced service from ORD to FLL and PBI, and from DEN to FLL, routes that have to be covered by UA to "complement" service to those destinations from IAH, EWR, and CLE.  Not sure if this signifies anything other than some sort of pre-combination alignment.

 

I didn't look for an announcement, but are those flights on Continental metal or code shares?  Season routes change and will be this way until March.

American Airlines will resume mainline service to Cleveland, Little Rock and Milwaukee on April 5th, all from Dallas. Currently DFW-MKE and DFW-CLE have four daily Eagle flights. Effective April 5th, they will each have three daily mainline flights. DFW-LIT will go from 10x daily Eagle to 3x mainline/4x Eagle. Schedules of the new mainline services:

 

Cleveland

AA 586 DFW 0730-1055 CLE S80 Daily

AA 872 DFW 1445-1705 CLE S80 Daily

AA 1556 DFW 2005-2330 CLE S80 Daily

 

AA 1567 CLE 0700-0850 DFW S80 Daily

AA 665 CLE 1145-1340 DFW S80 Daily

AA 853 CLE 1815-2000 DFW S80 Daily

On the airport runway, what I remember reading is that, after all of the Abrams Creek brouhaha, they lengthened the original runway to almost 10,000' and delayed the extension to 11,250'.  When Director Smith came aboard, he revisited the extension, and threw it out at that time, because the cost estimates came in "too high."  I am thinking $38M?

 

On the Smisek lecture, whenever I saw articles about the LGW, CDG, and LHR non-stops, they would always say something to the effect that CO would not disclose the financial performance of these routes, but there were often anecdotal statements in the articles that said the routes were doing well.  This was the first time I remember a CO official saying point blank that the CLE hub lost money.  As MTS pointed out above, there is really not much context around that statement, so you don't know if Hopkins was unique in that.  As MD88pilot said above, CO can't be doing that badly, as they are still at CLE.  However, the financial numbers and business strategy that made CLE viable for CO alone, may not pan out for the CO-UA combination.  There may be better ways to do it.  The Smisek lecture was not unlike earlier lectures from Gordon Bethune, among other things, chastising local business people for running to CAK to fly to New York etc for a cheaper fare, and stating that NEO needed to support the hub.  Smisek also said that Cleveland had not made money, but CO "stood by" us.  If we were not performing before, it is hard to see, with the city not growing, how we would perform two years from now, especially in the larger world of the new United.  I keep thinking of that paper brought out in the San Francisco suit, the one they later said was a recession scenario.

 

By the way, do people here consider CLE a real hub, or a HINO?

 

PS that news that PIT is retaining the CDG flight sans subsidy with no hub felt like a punch in the gut.  If they can do it...............

 

Smisek's talk before the biz community was just that..... TALK!  He's trying to drum up business and what better way than to threaten the hub.

 

He says CLE lost money.  But for what period?  How did EWR and IAH preform?  My guess not well either.  CAL lost alot of money and it wasn't all in CLE.

AA is slowly building up service. Its recent announcement to return MD80's to CLE is on top of smaller increases as well:

 

"The equipment upgauge on DFW-CLE comes after other AA capacity increases in CLE. AA recently resumed its non-stop MIA-CLE service this month with two daily ER4 flights, and also added two more frequencies from Chicago O’Hare (ORD), to six daily departures.....As the Continental-United merger has many watching the airline with regard to whether or not it will keep its Cleveland hub, American is strategically building its presence there so in the event that the new United dehubs the city, it can move swiftly to capture market share with additional service."

 

http://www.airlinecity.com/2010/11/21/american-airlines-resumes-mainline-service-to-cleveland/

Interesting map of the US showing capacity changes year over year for November. Click on Ohio and see the list to the right, showing the changes per city. As a state, Ohio lost 5.2% of its seats, the second worst in the country--the first being Iowa. Cleveland is not so bad at -0.7%, but it is still negative while the national trend is up.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/airline-capacity-map.htm

It's a little unfair of USA Today to ascribe a 5.2% decline to Ohio when the bulk of the loss is attributed to Cincinnati, which is a regional airport serving a good chunk of KY's population.  (I love that KY is deemed to be up 8%.)  Also, while CLE is down 0.7%, it's noteworthy that Houston (Bush)--Continental's primary hub--is down 2%. 

It's a little unfair of USA Today to ascribe a 5.2% decline to Ohio when the bulk of the loss is attributed to Cincinnati, which is a regional airport serving a good chunk of KY's population.  (I love that KY is deemed to be up 8%.)  Also, while CLE is down 0.7%, it's noteworthy that Houston (Bush)--Continental's primary hub--is down 2%. 

 

Incorrect.

 

CVG is designated by the FAA as an Ohio airport.

 

USA today got it right. 

Well, that may be; but the FAA's classification doesn't tell the whole story.  But if it makes you feel better to know you're technically correct, then I capitulate.

Then what is the whole story?

It's a little unfair of USA Today to ascribe a 5.2% decline to Ohio when the bulk of the loss is attributed to Cincinnati, which is a regional airport serving a good chunk of KY's population. (I love that KY is deemed to be up 8%.)

 

That argument is a slippery slope.  We could argue on and on about "border airports" and where they draw from and who the losses / gains should be attributed to.  I mean, Toledo saw a 17% decrease, but much of Northwest Ohio sees Detroit as their primary airport.  So maybe that 17% decrease isn't truly indicative of Toledo's market strength.  More people may just be choosing Detroit for lower fares or more non-stop routes.

 

In any case, CVG is located in Kentucky but the majority of the regional population reside in Ohio so the FAA's classification is probably appropriate.

The focus on Chicago as -the- midwestern hub makes some sense, but the cascading effect of delays and cancellations seem to make a focus on any one airport very risky. Don't airlines absolutely hemorrhage dollars when they get multiple delays/cancellations? It's one thing if your hub is in a very arid, calm area, but Chicago is anything but. (not that CLE is an ideal alternative in terms of weather)

 

I think CLE could do a lot better for itself, but circumstances aren't lending themselves to helping Hopkins very much. If Cleveland turns around, the airport will follow. If the government wants to invest in subsidized routes (ie, an international route) to improve business travel, that's worth debating, but it's not a permanent solution.

All i know is I'm spending $350 (including $25 for one bag of luggage) to flight out to DC next week.  I swear that's almost double what I spent a few years ago.

 

All i know is I'm spending $350 (including $25 for one bag of luggage) to flight out to DC next week.  I swear that's almost double what I spent a few years ago.

 

 

When did you book your ticket?  Prices always go up between Thanksgiving and the first weekend in January.

CO/UA bringing back mainline on two of their CLE-ORD flights.

Beginning April, AA will increase JFK-CLE to 2 flts per day.  (Currently DL operates 3x/day and AA, 1x/day.)

Just got a ticket to Asia for a ridiculously cheap 800....with two connections. All United/Continental. Normally 1200 with one connection in Chicago or elsewhere.

 

What I would give for a direct flight. I guess that's unrealistic at this point, though.

^ You could have gotten that today--CO's Shanghai and HK flights to EWR were diverted to CLE due to the blizzard in NYC!

So now we have another combination:  Airtran, which is not at Hopkins, and Southwest, which is. 

Southwest is (has) taken over the old Northwest counters.   Could this be a sign of things to come? 

 

I wanted to clarify this post after flying Southwest for Christmas.  Southwest moved to the Northwest check-in/ticket counters, but they don't have any more space there than they did on the other side.  As far as gates go, they still only occupy B8-B11.

^ You could have gotten that today--CO's Shanghai and HK flights to EWR were diverted to CLE due to the blizzard in NYC!

 

That would have been a happy coincidence, haha.

I saw this the other day.  Forgot to post.  Hopefully someone here will win.

http://www.clevelandairport.com/Airport-Guide/News---Media-Relations/Top-Stories/Miami-Sweepstakes.aspx

 

 

All i know is I'm spending $350 (including $25 for one bag of luggage) to flight out to DC next week. I swear that's almost double what I spent a few years ago.

 

 

This could be another factor. And it's going to get uglier.....

 

Higher U.S. Airfares Loom as Oil Climbs Toward $100

By Mary Schlangenstein and Mary Jane Credeur - Dec 22, 2010 4:37 PM ET

 

Delta Air Lines Inc., American Airlines and other large U.S. carriers may be poised to boost fares with fuel surcharges as crude oil moves closer to $100 a barrel.

 

Every dollar that fuel rises erodes their earnings, said Jim Corridore, a Standard & Poors equity analyst in New York. Its not good news to see fuel prices back up. Once we start approaching $100 a barrel, youll start to see fuel surcharges come back.

 

Crude settled at a 2-year high today of $90.48 on the New York Mercantile Exchange, underscoring the pressure on an industry whose two largest costs are jet fuel and labor. The price will top $100 by 2011s second half, Goldman Sachs Group Inc. forecast in a report this month.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-22/higher-u-s-airfares-loom-as-crude-climbs-toward-100-a-barrel.html