May 23, 201213 yr way off topic. The downtown center used to host both conventions and trade shows. Then technology changed and because our center was dated, shows like the International Car show skipped cleveland. The IX was built and things like the Home & Garder, Boat Show etc. moved there because of the space. Trade shows and convention should both be back in Downtown. There will be times where X amount of space is needed for a really large event, that the footprint of the current center wont fit. My stance on hotels, restaurants etc, is from a planners perspective I'd rather it be centered downtown to capture the most exposure and have the most opportunity to move more people in and out due to its centralized location. And if say someone came downtown to a movie, dinner they might stop into my show on a whim because it's something else to do nearby. At the IX center, its a one and done production. Understand now?
May 23, 201213 yr Before we get ahead of ourselves, we need capacity first, that cannot be done until the new convention center is operational. Once that is operational, the IX can be shut down. Not to get off topic, but it's worth noting that the CC and the IX Center are being touted as two completely different animals, with the former attempting to attract professional conventions and the latter going for the much larger trade shows (ie: auto show, home & garden show, etc.). The operators have said as much, that the two facilities are actually complimentary and that the new CC will not replace the IX. There's a reason the IX is in the middle of a $30M expansion. and why is the IX center renovating? They know that the downtown center will be were most trade shows will wont to go. Although new, the downtown center cannot host super large events, but will take away from the IX, since there has been no competition. Once more hotels, restaurants and venues open near the new MM/CC, the IX will hurt because it has no infrustructure. Most conventions and attendees perfer to be in the city not on the fringe. I dont see the IX staying open more than a decade no matter what they do. the Ix center and MMCC are not in competition with each other, the MMCC with only 300,000 Square fet cannot hold the event the 800,000 Sq/ft IX center can. 20 years ago it was an option to build a 350,000sq/ft new Convention center downtown, that could be expanded another 300,000-400,000 sq/ft but that time has passed. officially from theAirport staff, there is not need for anther pair of runways to handle any additional capsity. to be blunt the market has change dramitically the price of oil is high and you can operate international flights with smaller aircraft, like the 787 which can land here with out issue. if there is a need for a 12,000 ft run ways CLE has the space to do it. as of now there is no need and the airport is well under capacity. even the idea of a pair of runways that crossed antohr piar of runways is out of favor with theFAA. the IX center is safe
May 23, 201213 yr Don't forget about the competition' date=' there are Akron-Canton, Columbus, and Pittsburgh airports all within a couple hours drive to CLE. Denver doesn't have that competition to compete with.[/quote'] CLE is the biggest city/market of all of those---those places certainly should not influence CLE to not make it a better facility. Yes, Akron is working to kill the CLE UA hub, which is crazy by diverting as much passenger traffic as possible, but CLE certainly shouldn't let Akron guide its own plans.
May 23, 201213 yr crap i cannot believe i wrote two long responses and both were lost. UGH! pissed off now!
May 23, 201213 yr way off topic. The downtown center used to host both conventions and trade shows. Then technology changed and because our center was dated, shows like the International Car show skipped cleveland. The IX was built and things like the Home & Garder, Boat Show etc. moved there because of the space. Trade shows and convention should both be back in Downtown. There will be times where X amount of space is needed for a really large event, that the footprint of the current center wont fit. My stance on hotels, restaurants etc, is from a planners perspective I'd rather it be centered downtown to capture the most exposure and have the most opportunity to move more people in and out due to its centralized location. And if say someone came downtown to a movie, dinner they might stop into my show on a whim because it's something else to do nearby. At the IX center, its a one and done production. Understand now? I fully understand your stance on hotels, etc. and completely agree with the principle of it, (trying to get back on topic here) but I'm simply saying that those running the CC and the IX Center see both facilities serving distinct roles that will likely mean the IX remains in operation even after the CC opens. “The beauty of our facility and the Cleveland Convention Center is we really complement each other,” Mr. Peterson said. "We are really a B-to-C — business-to-consumer — venue, and they are primarily B-to-B. … The auto show can’t go downtown; they can’t handle that number of people.” http://www.crainscleveland.com/assets/pdf/CC74482624.PDF
May 23, 201213 yr way off topic. The downtown center used to host both conventions and trade shows. Then technology changed and because our center was dated, shows like the International Car show skipped cleveland. The IX was built and things like the Home & Garder, Boat Show etc. moved there because of the space. Trade shows and convention should both be back in Downtown. There will be times where X amount of space is needed for a really large event, that the footprint of the current center wont fit. My stance on hotels, restaurants etc, is from a planners perspective I'd rather it be centered downtown to capture the most exposure and have the most opportunity to move more people in and out due to its centralized location. And if say someone came downtown to a movie, dinner they might stop into my show on a whim because it's something else to do nearby. At the IX center, its a one and done production. Understand now? I fully understand your stance on hotels, etc. and completely agree with the principle of it, (trying to get back on topic here) but I'm simply saying that those running the CC and the IX Center see both facilities serving distinct roles that will likely mean the IX remains in operation even after the CC opens. The beauty of our facility and the Cleveland Convention Center is we really complement each other, Mr. Peterson said. "We are really a B-to-C business-to-consumer venue, and they are primarily B-to-B. The auto show cant go downtown; they cant handle that number of people. http://www.crainscleveland.com/assets/pdf/CC74482624.PDF That last comment was what I was talking about. Unfortunately I wrote a really long response to you and Pugu, and it's been lost. I'm too pissed to think about it again.
May 23, 201213 yr Don't forget about the competition, there are Akron-Canton, Columbus, and Pittsburgh airports all within a couple hours drive to CLE. Denver doesn't have that competition to compete with. Right. Most of the time I see CLE it's while I'm driving past it to fly out of Columbus or Akron instead. I typically save hundreds of dollars not flying CLE, even when I factor in gas mileage and parking at CMH/CAK vs. $2.50 RTA trip to CLE.
May 23, 201213 yr way off topic. The downtown center used to host both conventions and trade shows. Then technology changed and because our center was dated, shows like the International Car show skipped cleveland. The IX was built and things like the Home & Garder, Boat Show etc. moved there because of the space. Trade shows and convention should both be back in Downtown. There will be times where X amount of space is needed for a really large event, that the footprint of the current center wont fit. My stance on hotels, restaurants etc, is from a planners perspective I'd rather it be centered downtown to capture the most exposure and have the most opportunity to move more people in and out due to its centralized location. And if say someone came downtown to a movie, dinner they might stop into my show on a whim because it's something else to do nearby. At the IX center, its a one and done production. Understand now? I fully understand your stance on hotels, etc. and completely agree with the principle of it, (trying to get back on topic here) but I'm simply saying that those running the CC and the IX Center see both facilities serving distinct roles that will likely mean the IX remains in operation even after the CC opens. “The beauty of our facility and the Cleveland Convention Center is we really complement each other,” Mr. Peterson said. "We are really a B-to-C — business-to-consumer — venue, and they are primarily B-to-B. … The auto show can’t go downtown; they can’t handle that number of people.” http://www.crainscleveland.com/assets/pdf/CC74482624.PDF That last comment was what I was talking about. Unfortunately I wrote a really long response to you and Pugu, and it's been lost. I'm too pissed to think about it again. Probably for the better as I could feel the ax coming :wink:
May 23, 201213 yr Don't forget about the competition, there are Akron-Canton, Columbus, and Pittsburgh airports all within a couple hours drive to CLE. Denver doesn't have that competition to compete with. Right. Most of the time I see CLE it's while I'm driving past it to fly out of Columbus or Akron instead. I typically save hundreds of dollars not flying CLE, even when I factor in gas mileage and parking at CMH/CAK vs. $2.50 RTA trip to CLE. I always fly into PIT now as CLE has gotten too expensive. Although the car rental is much cheaper at CLE it is still cheaper to fly into PIT. When I'm in Youngtown, I regularly see commercials from both PIT and ACK. One not mentioning CLE by name but saying it is cheaper than "that other airport".
May 23, 201213 yr I certainly feel that UA chooses not to route connecting traffic through CLE as much as possible - preferring to route to ORD instead. Also, the premium for non-stops from CLE is beyond what I will have my company pay that I have gotten WAY too familiar with ORD in recent years. When fares are already $600-$700 to west coast, via ORD in almost every case, I'm not going to pay $1100 to fly non-stop from CLE to save a few hours. And though am doing all I can to support UA and CLE (39 domestic flights and counting, YTD) - today's search for NEO-SEA flights for early June is common... UA from CLE is mostly $900-$1100+, AirTran and Frontier from CAK start in the $400s and US is $600-$700 both airports. PIT is more like $600-$700 - and only 1:45 from my Chagrin door. As for the terminal - though CLE has done much to improve the terminal card it's been dealt (Term D is especially "big cityish" in design and retail) - cities like Indianapolis have built $1B new terminals in recent years - in the hopes of becoming the next DEN - even though (here's population again) they have half as many people, far fewer flights and just as many nearby airport options as NEO. And isn't CLE still hindered by having two parallel runways too close together to operate simultaneous takeoffs or landings in all but the best weather (or something like that...)?
May 23, 201213 yr I certainly feel that UA chooses not to route connecting traffic through CLE as much as possible - preferring to route to ORD instead. Also, the premium for non-stops from CLE is beyond what I will have my company pay that I have gotten WAY too familiar with ORD in recent years. When fares are already $600-$700 to west coast, via ORD in almost every case, I'm not going to pay $1100 to fly non-stop from CLE to save a few hours. And though am doing all I can to support UA and CLE (39 domestic flights and counting, YTD) - today's search for NEO-SEA flights for early June is common... UA from CLE is mostly $900-$1100+, AirTran and Frontier from CAK start in the $400s and US is $600-$700 both airports. PIT is more like $600-$700 - and only 1:45 from my Chagrin door. As for the terminal - though CLE has done much to improve the terminal card it's been dealt (Term D is especially "big cityish" in design and retail) - cities like Indianapolis have built $1B new terminals in recent years - in the hopes of becoming the next DEN - even though (here's population again) they have half as many people, far fewer flights and just as many nearby airport options as NEO. And isn't CLE still hindered by having two parallel runways too close together to operate simultaneous takeoffs or landings in all but the best weather (or something like that...)? yes they route thru ord because they have an economy of scale there that doesn't compare with cle. high airfares vs. non stop convenience is an opportunity cost. the fact that you are willing to drive 2 hours to catch a cheaper flight (and is that flt non-stop?) shows that you (and or your company) value cost over convenience. cak is not trying to "kill" of cle. cak serves a different audience. predominately lcc. a hub at cle and lcc ops at cak can exist and even compliment one another. yes, ind and others have invested in unfastructure. but keep in mind places like ind, cmh, mci, bna are swa types. their primary mix is liesure fares. the runways at cle are now fine with a good approximation of simultaneous ops. simply put, a hub will have higher average fares because of the convenience factor. if you shop around and are a bit flexible with your itinerary you can get good fares, even in cvg. sorry i'm rambling here. just finished a long flight in atl and waiting to get a plane back to nyc.
May 24, 201213 yr I'm still a 90-95% CLE flyer - and will be.. Any fare restrictions that are placed on what I spend are mine, not my company's - but trying to make prudent expense choices... I think most business travelers are. I fly out of PIT about once a year - the last being a non-stop to BOS last May that was $150 US vs. $1050 CO non-stop from CLE. I think those savings speak for themselves... I fly 3-4x a year out of CAK - half probably due to schedule (like late ATL return flight - only one that worked with my schedule - on FL earlier this year) and the other half due to fares (US to CLT $450 from CAK vs. $900 from CLE). I fly only Star Alliance from CLE... and don't even fare search WN - after near-weekly trips on them in the past... So my money's on UA... And I guess if flying from CLE means going through ORD for $600 vs. non-stop for $1000, then I'll look forward to my concourse B "Tortas Frontera" and saving the cash...
May 31, 201213 yr United Airlines just announced its cutting 1,300 jobs and 10% of service at Houston's Bush Intercontinental due to the city allowing Southwest to conduct international flights at another city airport. What could this mean, if anything for Cleveland's United operation?
May 31, 201213 yr I suppose it means that a few executives are going to make out with some nice bonuses.
May 31, 201213 yr It means little.... UAL was probably going to cut those jobs anyway. SWA was just the excuse to do it. I don;t care what the official PR says....when any company moves or downsizes, they do it for money...NOT great location/quality of life/airline hub/etc....
May 31, 201213 yr I've been following the UA merger for awhile and they are just using SWA as a scapegoat here -- it's an apples and oranges international operation. This article explains it well: http://blog.chron.com/lorensteffy/2012/05/southwest-wins-hobby-fight-as-united-pouts-threatens-its-own-employees/ As for Cleveland, we're still very much in the "wait and see" (hope and pray) situation. I will say that the new UA management has made some major missteps in this merger, this IAH layoff fiasco being the latest of them, and that greatly concerns me
May 31, 201213 yr I've been following the UA merger for awhile and they are just using SWA as a scapegoat here -- it's an apples and oranges international operation. This article explains it well: http://blog.chron.com/lorensteffy/2012/05/southwest-wins-hobby-fight-as-united-pouts-threatens-its-own-employees/ As for Cleveland, we're still very much in the "wait and see" (hope and pray) situation. I will say that the new UA management has made some major missteps in this merger, this IAH layoff fiasco being the latest of them, and that greatly concerns me Its a crock of crap. I see the winner being Denver. Also, if United cut in Houston, Newark and Chicago are NOT off the hook. Especially with Delta building a huge hub in NYC (LGA AND JFK - They have the shuttle, LGA domestic and some international and JFK International and some domestic) and American (International and Trans Continental premium service) being a major player as well. I dont think they can cut CLE without having to cut elsewhere. We can grow without much backlash from the city/region or traveling community as delays out of CLE are little to none. Something that ORD, EWR or IAD cannot do.
June 1, 201213 yr United Airlines adds 10 flights at Cleveland Hopkins airport, cuts 2 to Cincinnati CLEVELAND, Ohio -- United Airlines is adjusting its flight schedules out of Cleveland Hopkins International Airport. The airline is adding 10 flights and cutting 2 others. United has increased daily service by one flight each to Boston, Denver, Dallas-Fort Worth, Washington Dulles, Portland (Maine), San Francisco, St. Louis, Mo., and three more daily flights to Chicago O'Hare, said United spokesman Joe Micucci from Chicago. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/06/united_airlines_adds_10_flights_at_cleveland_hopkins_airport_cuts_2_others_to_cincinnati.html
June 3, 201213 yr great additions. i think this to increasing cle o&d in these markets. once profitibility is established on these additional routes tou may see increased service/new destinations to oustations to increase feed through cle. in 2008, CAL pre-emtively cut cle 17% because conventional wisdom was that the looming recession would impact cle far greater than elsewhere. that didn't happen. then came the merger with ual. now that the metrics of the merger and integration are beginning to generate and be analyzed, cle is probably looking alot better. as i always said: smiseks remarks about hub profitability were nothing more than off-the-cuff remarks designed more to scare the cle biz estabilshment. bethune used to to the same thing. but did you ever notice that neither smisek or bethune ever said that any other CAL hub was profitable? and remember during the closing days of the cambell administration CAL actually re-signed leases and commitments. if CAL ever wanted to jettison cle, they had ample opportunity to do so at any time they wanted - before and during the merger and didn't need to commit to any agreement with the OH AG
June 3, 201213 yr United Airlines adds 10 flights at Cleveland Hopkins airport, cuts 2 to Cincinnati CLEVELAND, Ohio -- United Airlines is adjusting its flight schedules out of Cleveland Hopkins International Airport. The airline is adding 10 flights and cutting 2 others. United has increased daily service by one flight each to Boston, Denver, Dallas-Fort Worth, Washington Dulles, Portland (Maine), San Francisco, St. Louis, Mo., and three more daily flights to Chicago O'Hare, said United spokesman Joe Micucci from Chicago. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/06/united_airlines_adds_10_flights_at_cleveland_hopkins_airport_cuts_2_others_to_cincinnati.html Am I right to assume that all of these will be flown by regionals except SFO? Why so much extra capacity to ORD though? That makes me wonder if other stuff is going to be cut shortly and they want to see the feasibility of just funneling these pax through ORD...
June 3, 201213 yr United Airlines adds 10 flights at Cleveland Hopkins airport, cuts 2 to Cincinnati CLEVELAND, Ohio -- United Airlines is adjusting its flight schedules out of Cleveland Hopkins International Airport. The airline is adding 10 flights and cutting 2 others. United has increased daily service by one flight each to Boston, Denver, Dallas-Fort Worth, Washington Dulles, Portland (Maine), San Francisco, St. Louis, Mo., and three more daily flights to Chicago O'Hare, said United spokesman Joe Micucci from Chicago. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/06/united_airlines_adds_10_flights_at_cleveland_hopkins_airport_cuts_2_others_to_cincinnati.html Am I right to assume that all of these will be flown by regionals except SFO? Why so much extra capacity to ORD though? That makes me wonder if other stuff is going to be cut shortly and they want to see the feasibility of just funneling these pax through ORD... Airlines don't add flights to check feasibility. They already know. There is obviously O&D demand on each of these flights. I don't know if it's alot of extra capacity to ORD or just keeping up with increasing demand. Don't forget, In the UAL system, ORD is a major gateway and CLE is not. Even though CLE is a hub, trips to Asia, SA, Western Canada, etc have to go through another hub. So even Clevelanders have to make connections at other hubs. I think these flights are just catering to an incease demand from CLE
June 3, 201213 yr Are the landing fees at Hopkins continuing to come down? They're much more competitive
June 4, 201213 yr Looking at UAL's CLE schedule, the additional flights struck me as Summer travel season adjustments and perhaps some greater business demand. I also noticed other adjustments. PBI year round ERJ service is gone for the first summer in a while. The SEA nonstop started later this year than it has in the past several years. Florida has been skinnied down to summer levels. (I wonder why Miami is not a larger destination - is it AA competition?) The summer 753's to LAX and IAH have been replaced by smaller planes. Looks like there will be some Airbus planes to places that used to be 73X (yeah for people craving that extra inch of seat width) . The additional SFO flight may be to route more people to Pacific destinations, as SFO is a hub. Overall, nothing overly negative. Other stuff I had read early on in the CO-UA merger process that the combined UA would increase IAH and reduce ORD a bit, which struck me as sort of an east - west flow balancing act. I was not sure if the reductions at ORD would impact CLE in any way. Now we have the SW at Hobby brouhaha. Not sure if this will cause a change in strategy. One of the articles recently posted in the CVG thread mentioned that UA was downsizing in CLE. Not sure if there is anything to it or if it is a poor/lazy application of "conventional wisdom". That Michael Boyd who is always quoted as an aviation expert has even changed HIS tune from CLE is toast to CLE is jammin, lol.
June 4, 201213 yr For anyone unfamiliar with the United-Continental merger pains and why so many people are upset with the airline, this is a must read... United has really been getting lots of bad press lately... Merger pains for United Airlines leave passengers hurting United, Cleveland's dominant carrier, is the most complained-about airline in America by far, according to the latest statistics from U.S. Department of Transportation. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/06/merger_pains_for_united_airlin.html
June 4, 201213 yr Looking at UAL's CLE schedule, the additional flights struck me as Summer travel season adjustments and perhaps some greater business demand. I also noticed other adjustments. PBI year round ERJ service is gone for the first summer in a while. The SEA nonstop started later this year than it has in the past several years. Florida has been skinnied down to summer levels. (I wonder why Miami is not a larger destination - is it AA competition?) The summer 753's to LAX and IAH have been replaced by smaller planes. Looks like there will be some Airbus planes to places that used to be 73X (yeah for people craving that extra inch of seat width) . The additional SFO flight may be to route more people to Pacific destinations, as SFO is a hub. Overall, nothing overly negative. Other stuff I had read early on in the CO-UA merger process that the combined UA would increase IAH and reduce ORD a bit, which struck me as sort of an east - west flow balancing act. I was not sure if the reductions at ORD would impact CLE in any way. Now we have the SW at Hobby brouhaha. Not sure if this will cause a change in strategy. One of the articles recently posted in the CVG thread mentioned that UA was downsizing in CLE. Not sure if there is anything to it or if it is a poor/lazy application of "conventional wisdom". That Michael Boyd who is always quoted as an aviation expert has even changed HIS tune from CLE is toast to CLE is jammin, lol. Boyd is pretty good and widely respected with lots of contacts in the industry. Ive met him at the Wings Club in NYC. The fact that he is more positive on CLE is good to hear. In fact i would say that it means that UAL is def committed to CLE. As far as a post in the CVG thread about UAL downsizing CLE, I don't think that there's any basis for that. If there were, industry analysts would be all over it. Increase frequencies to other hubs is usually the first step in expansion. It doesnt really matter much that equipment is smaller. Additional flights means more crew, fuel, fees, etc. In other words, there's got to be demand, and high yield demand, to pay the bills. PBI is low yield as is MIA. FLL is the airport of choice for south FL. UAL went out of its way to publicize these additions and amde no indication that they are summer only. Accept it as a net gain
June 4, 201213 yr MD88PILOT, I've always heard FLL is one of the lowest yield and lowest fare airports in the country because it's primarily leisure/cruise and heavily LCC? It would seem to me that MIA would offer better yields due to the business and international community there. Not saying your wrong, just hoping you could shed some light on that comment...
June 4, 201213 yr MD88PILOT, I've always heard FLL is one of the lowest yield and lowest fare airports in the country because it's primarily leisure/cruise and heavily LCC? It would seem to me that MIA would offer better yields due to the business and international community there. Not saying your wrong, just hoping you could shed some light on that comment... True and MIA is a huge hub that is the heart of AAs carribean and Latin America routes. Over the past 15 years due to a renovation and the war between SWA and JetBlue and the introduction of (now defunct) "Song" airlines FLL became the cheap go too airport for S. Florida. Wherever the Southwest affect was taking place JetBlue went there and fares fell. Florida was the first state where JetBlue (from JFK) went after Southwest dominance. Outside of MIA, all airports in Florida are more Leisure than Business.
June 4, 201213 yr MD88PILOT, I've always heard FLL is one of the lowest yield and lowest fare airports in the country because it's primarily leisure/cruise and heavily LCC? It would seem to me that MIA would offer better yields due to the business and international community there. Not saying your wrong, just hoping you could shed some light on that comment... I didn't day that FLL was high yield just that it is the aiport of choice. MIA is def an AA gateway but not many NE Ohioans use it as such.
June 4, 201213 yr To the aviation buffs: What are the top 5 to 10 things Hopkins needs to do to become more competitive with other airports? Is it lengthening runways, larger terminals, more demand, more competitive fee structure, what? And why haven't those improvements/changes been made?
June 4, 201213 yr To the aviation buffs: What are the top 5 to 10 things Hopkins needs to do to become more competitive with other airports? Is it lengthening runways, larger terminals, more demand, more competitive fee structure, what? And why haven't those improvements/changes been made? The runways are fine, now. For the record, I soloed at CLE on Sunday morning many years ago (1975) when there was a sod strip where the new 6L/24R now exists. It was demarkated by thick white chalk lines. But i digress...., Concourse C is long enough with plenty of gates but needed to be wider. It was built in the late '60's. Today, it would be hard pressed to handle a bank of widebodies, disembarking hundreds of pax. There's nowhere to put them. A nice white-linnen sit-down restaurant would be good. A n ew FIS facility of course. In my opinion, the time to do this was the '70's and indeed alot improvements were done to Concourses B & A during the Perk years. Then came Kucinich. The FAA under Carter was keen on the Lake Erie Jetport idea but Dennis turned em down. Then came to muni default and the City's credit was tanked. By the time it recovered, other pressing needs took precedence......I could go on and on...The White administration tried to nickle & dime CAL. Bethune said as much during an investors call in 2000. CAL's other hubs retied to accomodate CAL in a way that I don't CLE ever did
June 5, 201213 yr I see, so basically there was a lack of foresight by leadership in the 70s to properly address the then aging airport. Now with the wide bodied 777, 747, 767 and A380s that do international travel, the concourses really need to be expanded to handle the amount of passengers these planes would hold and to physically have room for those planes to be side by side at gates. To do that it would take billions right? Is that price tag what you think is holding back civic leaders from enlarging the airport especially given the uncertainty in the airline industry for a good chunk of the last 12 years? PS. It's crazy to think that as recently as '75 planes still landed on grass at Hopkins, what did they do in winter?
June 5, 201213 yr I wouldn't think it would cost billions. In fact, I'd be surprised if it cost more than 10s of millions if you limited the investments to the sections of concourses closest to the main terminal. Widening a concourse isn't like widening or lengthening a super-thick runway and having to do all the environmental assessments and possible property acquisitions, relocation of navigational aids etc. Or am I understating things? I'm trying to apply my understand of rail/transit stations and structures to airport passenger facilities. In many ways they are likely similar, except for dealing with secure areas. BTW, don't know if anyone saw this...... http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2012/06012012/index.php City Planning Commission Agenda for June 1, 2012 Ordinance No. 746-12(Ward 18/Councilmember Sweeney): Determining the method of making the public improvement of rehabilitating the South Cargo Ramp and reconstructing Taxiway N at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport; authorizing the Director of Port Control to enter into one or more contracts for the making of the improvement; authorizing professional design services, construction management and other related services; and to enter into various requirement contracts needed to implement the improvement. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 5, 201213 yr Well this is unrelated to the previous discussion so sorry If I'm going off topic with something a bit less serious... but does anyone know if they still are planning to put the Superman statue in the airport? :?
June 5, 201213 yr I see, so basically there was a lack of foresight by leadership in the 70s to properly address the then aging airport. Now with the wide bodied 777, 747, 767 and A380s that do international travel, the concourses really need to be expanded to handle the amount of passengers these planes would hold and to physically have room for those planes to be side by side at gates. To do that it would take billions right? Is that price tag what you think is holding back civic leaders from enlarging the airport especially given the uncertainty in the airline industry for a good chunk of the last 12 years? PS. It's crazy to think that as recently as '75 planes still landed on grass at Hopkins, what did they do in winter? Nothing crazy about a grass strip. Only used by single engines below a certain weight. Closed in winter. I wouldn't say it was a lack of foresight by airport management but rather a lack of political will to get it done. Basically, you've got a 1950's terminal/concourses with band-aid imptovements trying to function in a 21st century environment. When B & A were built, DC-6 and 7's with some Convair's thrown in were the state of the art and C wasn't too much later (1969). Now I would love to see the return of round engine props but the entire terminal/concourses need to be replaced
June 5, 201213 yr I wouldn't think it would cost billions. In fact, I'd be surprised if it cost more than 10s of millions if you limited the investments to the sections of concourses closest to the main terminal. Widening a concourse isn't like widening or lengthening a super-thick runway and having to do all the environmental assessments and possible property acquisitions, relocation of navigational aids etc. Or am I understating things? I'm trying to apply my understand of rail/transit stations and structures to airport passenger facilities. In many ways they are likely similar, except for dealing with secure areas. BTW, don't know if anyone saw this...... http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2012/06012012/index.php City Planning Commission Agenda for June 1, 2012 Ordinance No. 746-12(Ward 18/Councilmember Sweeney): Determining the method of making the public improvement of rehabilitating the South Cargo Ramp and reconstructing Taxiway N at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport; authorizing the Director of Port Control to enter into one or more contracts for the making of the improvement; authorizing professional design services, construction management and other related services; and to enter into various requirement contracts needed to implement the improvement. I think the City and CAL explored enlarging C back in the '90's and it was determined that it would more cost effective albeit more expensice to raze and rebuild C. As it exists, one couldn't add things like moving sidewwalks, etc.
June 5, 201213 yr The researching on rebuilding or expanded C found that the city should rebuild the concourses, and really all of the concourses, but nothing was done. I guess what I'm getting at was why not (if anyone knows)? what made the city/airport officials think sticking with the status quo in terms of our airport facilities would be better than rebuilding? What needs to happen to get that (a concourse/terminal rebuild of some sort) to happen?
June 28, 201212 yr United execs laud efforts to back local hub Early results are on track in campaign to encourage businesses to fly merged airline By JAY MILLER 4:30 am, June 25, 2012 The challenge from Jeff Smisek, the CEO of United Airlines, was simple. And, at least so far, it appears that challenge to the Cleveland business community is being met. “Every hub needs to earn its value every day,” he told an audience of Northeast Ohio civic and business leaders at a November 2010 luncheon in downtown Cleveland. “The key for Cleveland is to have a level of business travel so that we can have either consistent profitability or have that hub's profitability in a clear line of sight (ahead).” .... Cleveland Hopkins itself is an active participant in the preserve-the-hub effort, spending $60 million this year, and $530 million over five years, to improve the airport's appearance and passenger experience. “We're steadily trying to build a new airport in place,” said Ricky Smith, director of the Cleveland Airport System, which operates Hopkins and Burke Lakefront Airport. “We're overhauling the ticketing area, and next year we'll be refacing the terminal and then replacing the existing short-term parking lot.” READ MORE AT: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20120625/SUB1/306259974# "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 29, 201212 yr United execs laud efforts to back local hub Early results are on track in campaign to encourage businesses to fly merged airline By JAY MILLER 4:30 am, June 25, 2012 The challenge from Jeff Smisek, the CEO of United Airlines, was simple. And, at least so far, it appears that challenge to the Cleveland business community is being met. Every hub needs to earn its value every day, he told an audience of Northeast Ohio civic and business leaders at a November 2010 luncheon in downtown Cleveland. The key for Cleveland is to have a level of business travel so that we can have either consistent profitability or have that hub's profitability in a clear line of sight (ahead). .... Cleveland Hopkins itself is an active participant in the preserve-the-hub effort, spending $60 million this year, and $530 million over five years, to improve the airport's appearance and passenger experience. We're steadily trying to build a new airport in place, said Ricky Smith, director of the Cleveland Airport System, which operates Hopkins and Burke Lakefront Airport. We're overhauling the ticketing area, and next year we'll be refacing the terminal and then replacing the existing short-term parking lot. READ MORE AT: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20120625/SUB1/306259974# As I've said many times on this forum, the CLE hub isn't going anywhere. Despite Smiseks remarks two years ago, CLE always made money.
June 29, 201212 yr I liked the description of the capital improvements: "We're steadily trying to build a new airport in place." "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 29, 201212 yr ^Is it still their plan to tear down the parking garage for a short term lot? Has no one called them out yet on how ludicrous that plan is?
June 29, 201212 yr ^Is it still their plan to tear down the parking garage for a short term lot? Has no one called them out yet on how ludicrous that plan is? They do plan to remove a garage, but I think it is the Long Term, not Short Term garage Also, they state that the LT garage is past it's useful life and has been rehabbed once already (not sure how old some garages are downtown, but 43 years doesn't seem that old). However, they are also planning to add 2 floors to the short term garage and expand it in the future. The expansion is questionable to happen as it is in the last years of the master plan.
June 29, 201212 yr Everytime I'm at the airport, which seems to be once every few months, I notice improvements and renovations. Good to see and hear there are more on the way.
June 29, 201212 yr I'm definitely uneasy about the parking garage plans. We take the rapid to the airport about 50% of the time, but if we have a very early departure or a very late arrival, we usually just drive and park in the long term garage. It's so nice having it attached to the airport, whereas in other places (like my good ol' home town of St. Louie), you have no choice but to park off-site and take a shuttle.
June 29, 201212 yr ^Agree...does this mean no more on site long term parking? Everytime I park in LTP it seems full. Where are these cars going to go. All off site? Pain.
July 2, 201212 yr ^Agree...does this mean no more on site long term parking? Everytime I park in LTP it seems full. Where are these cars going to go. All off site? Pain. The idea is to expand the Short-term garage so that it is able to meet demand of what are currently two separate garages. The presentation doesn't get into the cost for parking, but I would imagine it will be more expensive than the long term garage is currently. Here is the link to the presentation: Master Plan Presentation. It is pretty informative even if it is just a slideshow.
August 2, 201212 yr Has anyone else noticed the crane for, I believe, the new tower? Unfortunately, I have to make a trip to Brunswick twice a week for gymnastics, but it does give an opportunity to see the airport changes. Also, it seems the Ford plants have nearly all come down and I read that Nasa is auctioning off a couple of their buildings. Maybe good, maybe bad...we shall see.
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