There was some bleed from CLE but not as much as you think.  Also' date=' if CAK is cut, pax from the southern catchment area might go to PIT and not CLE. [/quote']

 

There was fairly substantial bleed from CLE. People will drive for lower fares (even if the cost of time doesn't make sense) AND for schedule reasons.  PIT is still pretty far from Summit/Stark/Portage Counties. People in the eastern part of the catchment area, such as in Youngstown, may be lost, but that group---that did indeed use CAK over CLE/PIT when CAK had much fewer options than CLE/PIT--is fairly small anyway.

 

UAL's cuts caused a 22% reduction in CLE O&D.  In the meantime, February 2015 v.s February 2015 show an actual reduction of approx. 11%.  This means there is a net decrease of 11% in O&D.  Now, if all of that difference represents bleed to CAK and CAK's O&D before de-hubbing was approx. 2MM pax (which it was), then the actual maximum O&D that migrated from CLE to CAK would be approx. 220,000 pax per year. 

 

It's worth repeating the above net reduction in CLE after dehubbing is only 11% net.  No other airport has recovered so much so quickly in such a short amount of time. 

On the CLE-DC fly versus drive, it also depends on the airport. If for budget reasons you have to fly in to BWI, then I prefer to drive the whole way, especially if I have to rent a car at BWI.

 

There have been times where I had to take the Metro from my home in DC to Union Station to catch the Marc to get to the BWI rail station then take the shuttle to the BWI terminal, go through security, board the plane, fly to Hopkins, wait for my bag, then take the Rapid back downtown....and all in all it took longer than the six hours it would have taken to drive.

 

I don't know if it is still the case, but I know a few years ago the MARC didn't run on Sunday. I ended up having to take a bus from BWI to the Greenbelt station. I think that's when I started doing more driving.

Here's my main thought:

 

Seattle-Tacoma-Everett: 3.6 million population (1 Airport, 3 Airline hubs)

Cleveland-Akron-Canton: 3.5 million population (2 Airports, 0 Airline hubs)

 

Note: these maps are to exact scale.

 

 

I recently posted this comment at the Jet Blue article:

 

I've also wondered recently if Cleveland-Akron area should only have one airport for the benefit of the region. A great example to look to is Seattle-Tacoma airport (Seattle-Tacoma has a population of 3.6 million compared to 3.5 million of Cleveland-Akron). By only having one airport, they have hub status on Alaska, Delta, and Horizon... with many, many Frontier and United flights.

 

I really have no idea of how it could work financially (perhaps with immense federal help?), but we need to figure out how to restructure into one regional airport. Find a good location between Cleveland and Akron ... Build a brand new Cleveland-Akron airport. Then use the land of the old airport locations for new development, especially in the city limits of Cleveland. New residential neighborhoods could be built similar to Battery Park, and be completely TOD due to it being the end of the Red Line.

 

SEA-Tac has 1 airport and 2 hub airline hubs.  Horizon is the regional operator for Alaska as Express Jet was/is the Continental/United,  USAirways-USAirways Express, Delta/Delta Connection, American Airlines/Envoy, etc., etc., etc.,  It's considered one airline and hub operation.

If you're going to need a car at the other end, Washington, like Chicago, is actually quicker to drive to than fly.

Really?  I disagree

 

I don't know if it is still the case, but I know a few years ago the MARC didn't run on Sunday. I ended up having to take a bus from BWI to the Greenbelt station. I think that's when I started doing more driving.

 

MARC recently added Saturday AND Sunday services on the Baltimore-Washington Penn Line that serves BWI. This is their Penn Line weekend schedule:

http://mta.maryland.gov/sites/default/files/PENN-Weekend_122014.pdf

 

Weekday schedule:

http://mta.maryland.gov/sites/default/files/Penn_Full_111714.pdf

 

And back to Cleveland Hopkins which, BTW, looks dead from the tarmac. Or at least it did last week when I returned from Ireland. But you get inside the terminal and there's a decent amount of passengers in there. I don't see many planes so I wonder what they're all doing there!

 

I don't know if it is still the case, but I know a few years ago the MARC didn't run on Sunday. I ended up having to take a bus from BWI to the Greenbelt station. I think that's when I started doing more driving.

 

MARC recently added Saturday AND Sunday services on the Baltimore-Washington Penn Line that serves BWI. This is their Penn Line weekend schedule:

http://mta.maryland.gov/sites/default/files/PENN-Weekend_122014.pdf

 

Weekday schedule:

http://mta.maryland.gov/sites/default/files/Penn_Full_111714.pdf

 

And back to Cleveland Hopkins which, BTW, looks dead from the tarmac. Or at least it did last week when I returned from Ireland. But you get inside the terminal and there's a decent amount of passengers in there. I don't see many planes so I wonder what they're all doing there!

 

I've noticed this too--perhaps it's due to the reduction in smaller planes and more mainline aircraft, so (relatively) more people on fewer flights.  The walled off D concourse is a real shame though....

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2015/05/cleveland_to_europe_airport_di.html#incart_river

 

"not a matter of if, but a matter of when".  Interesting article for a few reasons.  They throw out Iceland as a possible destination.  Also, having a European carrier take the transatlantic route....alliances aside, wouldn't that just benefit the tourist?  I imagine most business travelers will stick with their frequent fliers?  just a thought. If a business traveler is NOT going to the lone desination (say London)...they have to make a stop anyway.  Wouldn't they be more likely to take United through Newark and then right to their destination?

I've actually started taking flights to/from Europe via O'Hare. I've had too many bad experiences with Newark to keep that up.

I've actually started taking flights to/from Europe via O'Hare. I've had too many bad experiences with Newark to keep that up.

 

It won't be long before O'Hare gives you the same.  Times 10.

 

The one good thing about EWR is they have shorter runways that service the lighter aircraft, freeing up runways for mainline and heavies, allowing faster operations overall.    One good Thunderstorm at O'Hare and it's a mess for hours as all the aircraft are backed up waiting on the same runways.

I've actually started taking flights to/from Europe via O'Hare. I've had too many bad experiences with Newark to keep that up.

 

I'm shocked to here that.  ORD is the most delay prone like no airport I've ever flown out of!  EVER!!  I've actually avoided ORD and flown into IAD.  I've been going to PR frequently this year  (my grand parents didn't return from winter break this year) and my only options are ORD or EWR and EWR is the lesser of two evils.

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2015/05/cleveland_to_europe_airport_di.html#incart_river

 

"not a matter of if, but a matter of when".  Interesting article for a few reasons.  They throw out Iceland as a possible destination.  Also, having a European carrier take the transatlantic route....alliances aside, wouldn't that just benefit the tourist?  I imagine most business travelers will stick with their frequent fliers?  just a thought. If a business traveler is NOT going to the lone desination (say London)...they have to make a stop anyway.  Wouldn't they be more likely to take United through Newark and then right to their destination?

We should look at London for business and leisure travel but based on Cleveland's business needs we should also be looking at Frankfort and Berlin. 

 

I can't find documentation but I understand our top European destinations are:

Dublin

London

Frankfort

Berlin

Prague

Warsaw

Bucharest or Bosnia

Rome

 

However, without a hub to support connecting traffic, it's going to be a hard sell for straight up originating only passengers.

It won't be long before O'Hare gives you the same.  Times 10.

 

The one good thing about EWR is they have shorter runways that service the lighter aircraft, freeing up runways for mainline and heavies, allowing faster operations overall.    One good Thunderstorm at O'Hare and it's a mess for hours as all the aircraft are backed up waiting on the same runways.

 

I've flown through O'Hare three times in the past year and have been on-time each time. On the other hand, nearly every time I've been EWR-bound from Hopkins going back 10 years with at least one trip a year, my plane has either sat out in Hopkin's airfield because we couldn't get into the pattern into EWR or our flight was canceled outright.

 

I've also heard good things about flying out of Toronto to Europe via Air Canada. Have yet to try it though.

It won't be long before O'Hare gives you the same.  Times 10.

 

The one good thing about EWR is they have shorter runways that service the lighter aircraft, freeing up runways for mainline and heavies, allowing faster operations overall.    One good Thunderstorm at O'Hare and it's a mess for hours as all the aircraft are backed up waiting on the same runways.

 

I've flown through O'Hare three times in the past year and have been on-time each time. On the other hand, nearly every time I've been EWR-bound from Hopkins going back 10 years with at least one trip a year, my plane has either sat out in Hopkin's airfield because we couldn't get into the pattern into EWR or our flight was canceled outright.

 

I've also heard good things about flying out of Toronto to Europe via Air Canada. Have yet to try it though.

 

Just give it time.  ORD will bite you!

 

Air Canada is fine for leisure travel, but I avoid them for business.  The planes tend to be outdated, which matches their web services and apps.  Log onto their site and you'll feel like you've traveled back in time to 1999.

It won't be long before O'Hare gives you the same.  Times 10.

 

The one good thing about EWR is they have shorter runways that service the lighter aircraft, freeing up runways for mainline and heavies, allowing faster operations overall.    One good Thunderstorm at O'Hare and it's a mess for hours as all the aircraft are backed up waiting on the same runways.

 

I've flown through O'Hare three times in the past year and have been on-time each time. On the other hand, nearly every time I've been EWR-bound from Hopkins going back 10 years with at least one trip a year, my plane has either sat out in Hopkin's airfield because we couldn't get into the pattern into EWR or our flight was canceled outright.

 

I've also heard good things about flying out of Toronto to Europe via Air Canada. Have yet to try it though.

 

Just give it time.  ORD will bite you!

 

Air Canada is fine for leisure travel, but I avoid them for business.  The planes tend to be outdated, which matches their web services and apps.  Log onto their site and you'll feel like you've traveled back in time to 1999.

 

Im sure others may have another opinion.  But if you live in Cleveland, never under any circumstances drive to Toronto to fly internationally.  Attempted that this past year to save HALF on what it would cost to fly out of CLE.  Pearson was about the worst flying experience I have had in my life, the people were awful, the customer servie was awful, nobody could give me answers.  Our trip to Europe ended up being cancelled.  Spent the long weekend in Toronto.  Air Canada was worse than any American carrier I have ever flown, plus....Canada.

^From my experience with AC--and this was at Montreal, not Toronto--I would never fly them again either. The absolute worst customer service front-facing staff I have ever dealt with on any airline in the world. On my flight searches on Kayak, one of the first things I do is open the 'layovers' button, and then turn off Toronto as a connection point, so as to remove all Air Canada options.

UAL's cuts caused a 22% reduction in CLE O&D.  In the meantime' date=' February 2015 v.s February 2015 show an actual reduction of approx. 11%.  This means there is a net decrease of 11% in O&D.  Now, if all of that difference represents bleed to CAK and CAK's O&D before de-hubbing was approx. 2MM pax (which it was), then the actual maximum O&D that migrated from CLE to CAK would be approx. 220,000 pax per year.  [/quote']

 

Not sure I follow this argument correctly. Firstly, where are you getting this number?: "UAL's cuts caused a 22% reduction in CLE O&D"

 

 

 

Just give it time.  ORD will bite you!

 

Air Canada is fine for leisure travel, but I avoid them for business.  The planes tend to be outdated, which matches their web services and apps.  Log onto their site and you'll feel like you've traveled back in time to 1999.

 

Until ORD bites me, I'll continue to use it, especially if I keep getting better fares through there. And I almost never fly on business. Nearly all my biz travel is within Ohio and sometimes to Chicago and Washington DC. Most of the time I'll take Megabus to Chicago and Amtrak home, and I'll either fly or take the train to/from DC depending on fares, etc.

 

Im sure others may have another opinion.  But if you live in Cleveland, never under any circumstances drive to Toronto to fly internationally.  Attempted that this past year to save HALF on what it would cost to fly out of CLE.  Pearson was about the worst flying experience I have had in my life, the people were awful, the customer servie was awful, nobody could give me answers.  Our trip to Europe ended up being cancelled.  Spent the long weekend in Toronto.  Air Canada was worse than any American carrier I have ever flown, plus....Canada.

 

Not sure what that means. Canada's awesome. Prefer it to America.

 

I would fly to Toronto to make a European connection. I'd never drive there to catch a plane. Too indirect.

I have flown to Frankfurt via Toronto back before United stopped flying ERJs on that route (I think the only option now is on an AC puddle jumper?).  I found it to be a fairly pleasant experience, aside from the fact that you had every announcement being made in French on top of English and German.

 

If I had an option to fly to a European destination and change planes there instead, I would take that in a heartbeat.  ORD and EWR are both on my sh!tlist.  IAD isn't ......  Yet.

My dad just got back from London via Toronto on United (which I despise for many reasons) but had a positive and on time experience

UAL's cuts caused a 22% reduction in CLE O&D.  In the meantime' date=' February 2015 v.s February 2015 show an actual reduction of approx. 11%.  This means there is a net decrease of 11% in O&D.  Now, if all of that difference represents bleed to CAK and CAK's O&D before de-hubbing was approx. 2MM pax (which it was), then the actual maximum O&D that migrated from CLE to CAK would be approx. 220,000 pax per year.  [/quote']

 

Not sure I follow this argument correctly. Firstly, where are you getting this number?: "UAL's cuts caused a 22% reduction in CLE O&D"

 

 

 

With the hub drawdown and had other airlines not stepped in, the passenger decrease would be approx. 22% (this includes connecting pax).  Other airlines have actually stimulated local traffic.  Their additions represent about an 11% increase.  The difference between the two is about an 11% net decrease in pax.

I've actually started taking flights to/from Europe via O'Hare. I've had too many bad experiences with Newark to keep that up.

 

I'm shocked to here that.  ORD is the most delay prone like no airport I've ever flown out of!  EVER!!  I've actually avoided ORD and flown into IAD.  I've been going to PR frequently this year  (my grand parents didn't return from winter break this year) and my only options are ORD or EWR and EWR is the lesser of two evils.

 

Yea, ORD is the worst in my professional opinion.  When I flew domestic, I always tried to avoid bidding on lines that had ORD segments. 

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2015/05/cleveland_to_europe_airport_di.html#incart_river

 

"not a matter of if, but a matter of when".  Interesting article for a few reasons.  They throw out Iceland as a possible destination.  Also, having a European carrier take the transatlantic route....alliances aside, wouldn't that just benefit the tourist?  I imagine most business travelers will stick with their frequent fliers?  just a thought. If a business traveler is NOT going to the lone desination (say London)...they have to make a stop anyway.  Wouldn't they be more likely to take United through Newark and then right to their destination?

 

Boyd is highly respected and accurate.  His statement alone says alot.  And you've hit the nail on the head about the biz traveler.  This is why non-stop to Europe is not an easy thing for small/medium metro's.  If one has to connect, it doesn't really matter for the most part where you do it.  So in the case of CLE it depends on what European city generates the most O&D revenue.  In other words, how many premium seats are you selling each way.  I remember in the Continental days it was calculated that if you sold out first class one way with the maximum fare, every other seat BOTH ways was profit.  This was using the 757-200.  And so it goes for places like IND, CMH, STL, etc.  Will people pay a premium to originate in those cities if they have to connect anyway to get to Rome, Oslo or Milan?

It won't be long before O'Hare gives you the same.  Times 10.

 

The one good thing about EWR is they have shorter runways that service the lighter aircraft, freeing up runways for mainline and heavies, allowing faster operations overall.    One good Thunderstorm at O'Hare and it's a mess for hours as all the aircraft are backed up waiting on the same runways.

 

I've flown through O'Hare three times in the past year and have been on-time each time. On the other hand, nearly every time I've been EWR-bound from Hopkins going back 10 years with at least one trip a year, my plane has either sat out in Hopkin's airfield because we couldn't get into the pattern into EWR or our flight was canceled outright.

 

I've also heard good things about flying out of Toronto to Europe via Air Canada. Have yet to try it though.

 

My wife and I just flew to Rome through Toronto and it was an OK experience.  I thought Air Canada was fantastic, frankly, but I didn't really need to deal with their customer service people at all.  The flight was on an A330 that seemed brand new.  The food they served was actually really good and they gave us all the free wine and beer we wanted.  Toronto's airport was less fun, however.  The walk from the arrival terminal to our connecting flight was extremely long through narrow corridors with no moving walkways and an out of order escalator.  The international terminal was really nice though with large seats and complimentary iPads. 

 

The flight back was on United from Amsterdam to Newark and that was a less enjoyable experience.  The 767 was old and dirty and the entertainment system was poor.  The gate at Schipol was absolutely tiny and people were shoulder to shoulder waiting to get on the plane.  Newark (my first time there) felt a bit run down and the it was very difficult for us to navigate the airport.  The way-finding there is just terrible.  I don't know if it's because of construction or what, but the signs seemed to conflict and we were forced to ask for help as was nearly every person in our immediate vicinity. 

So I see Detroit has a new direct flight to Berlin. They have other international flights. Where's ours?

So I see Detroit has a new direct flight to Berlin. They have other international flights. Where's ours?

 

They have the automotive company HQs.

^They also have a massive Delta hub.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/05/faa_investigating_cleveland_ho.html#incart_m-rpt-1

So I see Detroit has a new direct flight to Berlin. They have other international flights. Where's ours?

You forget, that Detroit was, pre merger, a NW hub and was bigger than the United and AA hubs in Chicago. 

So I see Detroit has a new direct flight to Berlin. They have other international flights. Where's ours?

You forget, that Detroit was, pre merger, a NW hub and was bigger than the United and AA hubs in Chicago. 

 

I couldn't care less what Detroit has in terms of airline connections. Detroit's a mess. And all I know is that many metro areas Cleveland's size have overseas flights. I'd even argue that the city or Positively Cleveland or a collection of larger businesses should subsidize an overseas flight such as to Heathrow, Amsterdam or Frankfurt. I'd even take Dublin or some airport that has US Customs pre-clearance so we wouldn't have to establish all of that infrastructure here for just one flight.

So I see Detroit has a new direct flight to Berlin. They have other international flights. Where's ours?

You forget, that Detroit was, pre merger, a NW hub and was bigger than the United and AA hubs in Chicago. 

 

I couldn't care less what Detroit has in terms of airline connections. Detroit's a mess. And all I know is that many metro areas Cleveland's size have overseas flights. I'd even argue that the city or Positively Cleveland or a collection of larger businesses should subsidize an overseas flight such as to Heathrow, Amsterdam or Frankfurt. I'd even take Dublin or some airport that has US Customs pre-clearance so we wouldn't have to establish all of that infrastructure here for just one flight.

Now KJP[/member] You know darn well that population doesn't equate to airline operations.  Look at Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte, Vegas, San Diego, Salt Lake City to name a few cities that have more operations than us with a similar population to NEO. 

 

Northwest had a huge hub in Detroit and since the merger it's Delta's no. 2 hub and obviously they have the O&D to fill flights from the DTW.  Luthansa, Virgin Atlantic & Air France can fill planes from DTW without subsidized flights.  I'm not 100% sure CLE can without a true international terminal and more direct flights to similar or smaller areas to help fill those flights.

So I see Detroit has a new direct flight to Berlin. They have other international flights. Where's ours?

You forget, that Detroit was, pre merger, a NW hub and was bigger than the United and AA hubs in Chicago. 

 

I couldn't care less what Detroit has in terms of airline connections. Detroit's a mess. And all I know is that many metro areas Cleveland's size have overseas flights. I'd even argue that the city or Positively Cleveland or a collection of larger businesses should subsidize an overseas flight such as to Heathrow, Amsterdam or Frankfurt. I'd even take Dublin or some airport that has US Customs pre-clearance so we wouldn't have to establish all of that infrastructure here for just one flight.

 

 

Metro Detroit is twice the size of Cleveland metro.

 

the auto industry provides alot of demand for international flights.  Plus Detroit can handle A340s, A380s, 777s and 747s  Cleveland cannot.

So I see Detroit has a new direct flight to Berlin. They have other international flights. Where's ours?

You forget, that Detroit was, pre merger, a NW hub and was bigger than the United and AA hubs in Chicago. 

 

I couldn't care less what Detroit has in terms of airline connections. Detroit's a mess. And all I know is that many metro areas Cleveland's size have overseas flights. I'd even argue that the city or Positively Cleveland or a collection of larger businesses should subsidize an overseas flight such as to Heathrow, Amsterdam or Frankfurt. I'd even take Dublin or some airport that has US Customs pre-clearance so we wouldn't have to establish all of that infrastructure here for just one flight.

 

 

Metro Detroit is twice the size of Cleveland metro.

 

the auto industry provides alot of demand for international flights.  Plus Detroit can handle A340s, A380s, 777s and 747s  Cleveland cannot.

The Auto Industry isn't.  Which is why many office relating to the auto industry have closed their.  (professional hat on) we closed many of our Detroit office and consolidated them into a very small of 48 people down from 450+.  and many of our partner and competitors have done the same (professional hat off)

 

At DTW it's connections that are filling planes.  However, I will agree that the NEW terminal helped.

 

777s and 747s can land and be serviced at Hopkins.

 

Metro Detroit is twice the size of Cleveland metro.

 

Cool. What about Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Charlotte...?

 

And Detroit is still a dump. :-o

 

Every time I return from Europe where I see Cleveland-sized cities on the departure boards, I feel like I'm coming to a backwater town by having to fly through somewhere else to get here. And invariably my last lap into Cleveland is on an Embraer puddle jumper. So now we're in the class of Syracuse, Grand Rapids and Dubuque. I suspect the tendency of posters here to talk ourselves out of being worthy of a direct flight to Europe is probably happening in civic and airline circles too. Otherwise we'd have that flight by now.

So I see Detroit has a new direct flight to Berlin. They have other international flights. Where's ours?

You forget, that Detroit was, pre merger, a NW hub and was bigger than the United and AA hubs in Chicago. 

 

I couldn't care less what Detroit has in terms of airline connections. Detroit's a mess. And all I know is that many metro areas Cleveland's size have overseas flights. I'd even argue that the city or Positively Cleveland or a collection of larger businesses should subsidize an overseas flight such as to Heathrow, Amsterdam or Frankfurt. I'd even take Dublin or some airport that has US Customs pre-clearance so we wouldn't have to establish all of that infrastructure here for just one flight.

 

 

Metro Detroit is twice the size of Cleveland metro.

 

the auto industry provides alot of demand for international flights.  Plus Detroit can handle A340s, A380s, 777s and 747s  Cleveland cannot.

In addition to a very busy Delta hub, DTW is also the only national airport serving the next tier of cities around it - Toledo's airport goes only to ORD and a few Florida cities seasonally; Ann Arbor of course has no airport to mention; Flint's Bishop has quite a few flights out to major airports in the eastern US, and Lansing has flights to several as well. The immediate market area for DTW is probably closer to 7-8 million, considerably larger than the region served primarily by CLE...think hinterland. Despite the city's problems, there is still serious capital in the region. 

 

DTW has many, many international destinations:

Delta flies direct to Amsterdam, Beijing–Capital, Cancún, Frankfurt, London–Heathrow, Mexico City, Nagoya–Centrair, Paris–Charles de Gaulle, São Paulo–Guarulhos, Seoul–Incheon, Shanghai–Pudong, Tokyo–Narita, and seasonal to Cozumel, Grand Cayman, Montego Bay, Monterrey, Montréal–Trudeau, Nassau, Puerto Vallarta, Punta Cana, Rome–Fiumicino, San José del Cabo, Vancouver;

 

Others go to Amman (Royal Jordanian), Paris de Gaulle (Air France), Frankfurt (Lufthansa) and Heathrow (Virgin Atlantic).

 

DTW terminals are state of the art, something no one can claim about CLE's vintage terminal. I almost always fly out of Detroit, and it's certainly the best airport I've used in the Midwest; probably the whole country.

I'm peeing in Detroit's Cheerios because it's an easy target. But the reality has less to do about them. Instead it has to do with metro-population peer cities like Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Charlotte and Minneapolis with nonstops to Europe. Rather than list the reasons why we don't deserve a nonstop to Europe (do we really need to help our detractors with self-defeatism?), maybe we should spend more time trying to list reasons why an airline should. And if we lack the reasons, then we need to change the economics such as with public-sector and/or private-sector guarantees to an airline. We can't grow if we're unwilling to take risks. My rant is thusly switched off....

^Speaking of Detroit and their tenant airlines:

 

Delta will begin once weekly flights between CLE and Orlando beginning Dec 19 on an Embraer 175.

 

MCO1105 - 1335CLE E75 6

CLE1405 - 1635MCO E75 6

 

Not a lot of service, but its something. There will now be five carriers on this route. In addition to DL, there will be UA, Spirit, Southwest, and Frontier.

I'm peeing in Detroit's Cheerios because it's an easy target. But the reality has less to do about them. Instead it has to do with metro-population peer cities like Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Charlotte and Minneapolis with nonstops to Europe. Rather than list the reasons why we don't deserve a nonstop to Europe (do we really need to help our detractors with self-defeatism?), maybe we should spend more time trying to list reasons why an airline should. And if we lack the reasons, then we need to change the economics such as with public-sector and/or private-sector guarantees to an airline. We can't grow if we're unwilling to take risks. My rant is thusly switched off....

 

What CVG has is a leftover from the megahub days.  CLT is mostly connections as it is an US/AA megahub.  MSP is a DAL hub and PIT ponied up a subsidy for DAL.  The subsidy primed the pump and though not consistently daily, the service is pretty much year around. 

 

CLE's best bet for TATL was and is UAL or a UAL code-share (Star Alliance).  UAL still has some feed into CLE for connections to fill a daily flight plus an average of about 300 pax/day TATL originating from CLE.  During the White administration, UAL/LH wanted to add CLE-FRA and the City insisted on London.  LH even approached the City about starting an LH Cargo hub at CLE and were rebuffed. 

 

Now, I am still curious about AA/BA in CLE.  AA/US as I've said in the past is hiring in CLE.  Despite the advertorials touting such places as CHH, IND and STL TATL on AA/BA, I see no activity from AA adding domestic feed to any of those cities which would make TATL workable.  The daily TATL average for CMH for example is only a little over 100 pax per day.  IND about the same and STL somewhat higher. 

 

There is a rumor that Emirates is looking ant Duubai (DXB) - LHR - USA flights.  If the Cleveland Clinic is still flying people to DXB regularly, a one stop/same plane from CLE to DXB with a stop at LHR would do nicely.  CLE's daily LHR O&D is a bout 65 I think.

 

The next TATL from the states is CLE's to lose with LITTLE in the form of incentives, unlike some of the other contestants. 

The White Administration completely undid virtually everything positive that the Voinovich Administration had accomplished. Both had their share of corruption but Voinovich was pro-business while White was an extortionist.

 

I hope some of the possibilities you outlined come to fruition. It sounds like between CLE-LHR-DXB that Emirites could probably guarantee close to 100 seats filled for the CLE-LHR portion and I'm sure they could fill the LHR-DXB portion without much trouble.

 

EDIT: And I appreciate your can-do insights! :)

A person on another Forum has stated that they heard that UAL is off the hook for Concourse D.  They offered no source to back up that statement.  The only way UAL could accomplish this is if they sold or assigned their obligation to a new lessee; or, they executed a lease buy-out which I don't think is the case since that date would be public knowledge.

A person on another Forum has stated that they heard that UAL is off the hook for Concourse D.  They offered no source to back up that statement.  The only way UAL could accomplish this is if they sold or assigned their obligation to a new lessee; or, they executed a lease buy-out which I don't think is the case since that date would be public knowledge.

 

If that's indeed the case would that be a positive for the city?  Would that allow for them to shift flights to concourse D and completely rebuild the older concourses one at a time, shifting flights as concourses are widened and improved once by one?  I've always thought that the one good thing with the UAL reduction was the opportunity to completely rebuild the airport from the ground up in phases. 

A person on another Forum has stated that they heard that UAL is off the hook for Concourse D.  They offered no source to back up that statement.  The only way UAL could accomplish this is if they sold or assigned their obligation to a new lessee; or, they executed a lease buy-out which I don't think is the case since that date would be public knowledge.

 

If that's indeed the case would that be a positive for the city?  Would that allow for them to shift flights to concourse D and completely rebuild the older concourses one at a time, shifting flights as concourses are widened and improved once by one?  I've always thought that the one good thing with the UAL reduction was the opportunity to completely rebuild the airport from the ground up in phases. 

 

Mind you this is just a rumor.  The person who posted that tidbit offered no source or corroborating data.  It could very well mean that another airline is interested.  I don't think it means that the airport will utilize the gates while rebuilding other concourses in phases.  Hopkins is still $800,000,000 in debt as a result of phased remodeling and I think before any big capital improvements are made they will have to retire or reissue debt under better terms to lower the interest.

 

Also, it could just mean that the City and UAL have agreed to a lease buy-out whereby the City get a lump sum payment and the keys to the concourse.

$800 million in debt?  From what? 

$800 million in debt?  From what? 

 

Nate Gray's parking lot and retirement fund.

CLE got a dubious shout out during the Cavs/Warriors game. The announcer joked that getting to Cleveland was a drag; that it required too many layovers and plane transfers.

 

There's no such thing as bad publicity, some say.

in the meantime, why not push for something more easily doable and worthwhile than europe or the middle east? i see cle to mex are all connecting flights. same for yvr and some others. there should be at least some non-stops to all the important regional destinations as well.

A person on another Forum has stated that they heard that UAL is off the hook for Concourse D.  They offered no source to back up that statement.  The only way UAL could accomplish this is if they sold or assigned their obligation to a new lessee; or, they executed a lease buy-out which I don't think is the case since that date would be public knowledge.

 

If that's indeed the case would that be a positive for the city?  Would that allow for them to shift flights to concourse D and completely rebuild the older concourses one at a time, shifting flights as concourses are widened and improved once by one?  I've always thought that the one good thing with the UAL reduction was the opportunity to completely rebuild the airport from the ground up in phases. 

 

Mind you this is just a rumor.  The person who posted that tidbit offered no source or corroborating data.  It could very well mean that another airline is interested.  I don't think it means that the airport will utilize the gates while rebuilding other concourses in phases.  Hopkins is still $800,000,000 in debt as a result of phased remodeling and I think before any big capital improvements are made they will have to retire or reissue debt under better terms to lower the interest.

 

Also, it could just mean that the City and UAL have agreed to a lease buy-out whereby the City get a lump sum payment and the keys to the concourse.

 

Wow $800M is a lot!  I'm guessing that's a collection of all of the work done in the 90's through now, including interest.  Seems like new airports are build for not too much more...maybe $1-2B.  Every time I fly I just wish we could open up our concourses more.  We've expanded the runways, I'd hope we can put money into substantial rebuilding of the terminal.

On further checking, I believe the debt is down to about $720 million.  I think they paid down about $70-$80 million in principal last year and their sinking fund payments going forward are in that annual range.  Concourse D and the new 6L/24R plus the new rental car facility probably take up over half that amount.  Plus there are/were incremental improvements in field conditions (extensive runway/taxiway improvements and uncouplings pursuant to FAA directives) and some incremental terminal/concourse improvements over the years.  It all adds up.

JetBlue announced today that it's increasing the number of daily flights between Boston and CLE. Great news given that the route has only been around for 2 or so months, and it bodes well for JetBlue's future in CLE. Wouldn't be surprised to see some new destinations from them fairly soon.

^ :clap:  I flew Jet Blue for the first time in May to Ft. Laurderdale and loved it.  Extra leg room a plus for a bigger guy like me, and free bags.  Great service overall and not more expensive than the other discount airlines.

The airport turns 90:

 

 

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