I just happened to remember--I landed at CLE at 7:00 Saturday evening and the entire west end of the ticketing concourse was already closed for business.  Not a soul to be seen at the United end...truly sad.

 

Saturday has always been a pretty light day, even at larger airports.  Delta is offering 30% discounts to fly on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Saturday since load factors are low on those days.

There's a rumor of WOW Air coming to CLE. WOW is an Icelandic low-cost carrier that offers relatively cheap US-Europe connections via Iceland. Next summer, maybe?

The WOW rumor is intriguing. They only fly from a half dozen US cities - all much larger than CLE - and a non-stop to continental Europe, with a legacy airline loyalty program tie-in, would be preferred by many (especially business travelers) for CLE. However, with their low price model, and the relative/exotic allure of Iceland as a stopping point (I still fondly member an overnight/never-dark stopover on Icelandair there decades ago) - + many Euro destinations, WOW could be a regional draw from 3-4 hours away. I know numerous folks who have utilized low cost WestJet from Toronto (<$500 to Europe) and this could be similar. WOW!

WOW would actually be prefect for Cleveland. I believe they're using A321s on many routes so it wouldn't an aircraft that the tiny CLE customs facility couldn't handle. If the flight can work you'd hope maybe Icelandair, Condor or Norwegian may take look at the area as well.

 

Without addressing the customs facility, I still find it hard to see a legacy carrier coming in with a bigger aircraft like the 787. 

Without addressing the customs facility, I still find it hard to see a legacy carrier coming in with a bigger aircraft like the 787.

 

I find it hard to see a legacy trying even a 757 again until the market shows bigger gains.  If CLE is going to get European service back any time soon, it will have to be a low-cost carrier and right now those are all European. There is a downside to flying through Iceland, however. The flight is broken up so that neither leg of the trip let's you sleep much; but I think WOW fares could overcome that even for a good number of business travelers.  Even if it's only four times a week of so, I think they'd see good business at CLE.

WOW would actually be prefect for Cleveland. I believe they're using A321s on many routes so it wouldn't an aircraft that the tiny CLE customs facility couldn't handle. If the flight can work you'd hope maybe Icelandair, Condor or Norwegian may take look at the area as well.

 

Without addressing the customs facility, I still find it hard to see a legacy carrier coming in with a bigger aircraft like the 787. 

 

What about flights from European airports having USA preclearance facilities? I think Cleveland-Dublin would tap a terrific market considering Eaton's HQ and all of us Irish-folk here. :)

This is a little old but there is some interesting speculation about where a ME3 carrier might target for their next US route. Cleveland is one of a few larger markets that doesn't have access to a ME3 carrier within 100 miles driving distance, but Cleveland drops considerably when looking at GDP: http://www.airlinereporter.com/2016/01/playing-us-will-me3-fly-2016-guessing-game/

 

Also worth noting is that Emirates already has cargo service in Columbus (at Rickenbacker) so they already have some relationships in Columbus. I wonder how likely a ME3 carrier would be to launch a fifth-freedom route between somewhere like Cleveland/Columbus/Pittsburgh and a European market with continuing service to a Middle East hub.

 

(Edited for typo/to spell city names.)

I can't imagine the ME3 being granted a 5th freedom route between the US and Europe after the US majors just went after the ME3 for unfair competition so publicly. A direct CLE-DXB/DOH/AUH (with connecting onward service to India) is far more likely.  (And it'd be CLE over CMH or PIT.)

Emirates with a 77L or 77W? No way. Hopkins can't handle that type of aircraft. I know technically it could but I'm sure the folks at Emirates will see the limitations of Hopkins right off the bat. They'll fly to Detroit before any of the other cities you mentioned.

 

BTW, are we back to using three letter codes for airports? I thought that was a no-no or is everyone over that now?

^While I never complained about the three letter codes in this thread I hope it stays a no no.  I was always reluctant to click into this thread because half the time I couldn't understand what was being discussed due to the codes.

AmrapinVA--i was saying a direct CLE-x flight was more likely than one of the ME3 gaining 5th freedom, not the likelihood of such service itself.

^While I never complained about the three letter codes in this thread I hope it stays a no no.  I was always reluctant to click into this thread because half the time I couldn't understand what was being discussed due to the codes.

 

I agree but I see I did upthread as well. It's just soooooo easy to type CLE!

^CLE of course is not a problem for me.  It is just that there are so many other airport codes which often in my mind have no relation to the city or region and which I have to research just to follow the discussion.  Also, you guys in the industry tend to use a lot of insider jargon which tends to be confusing to the lay person.

Anyone know timetable on American move to multiple (5?) C concourse gates at CLE? It was believed to be in Fall.

^I heard it was delay to Spring 2017, but I don't know why.

I wouldn't be surprised that the delay involves some re-configuration behind the scenes, where their bag room and ticket counters are  in relation to their gates

I can't imagine the ME3 being granted a 5th freedom route between the US and Europe after the US majors just went after the ME3 for unfair competition so publicly. A direct CLE-DXB/DOH/AUH (with connecting onward service to India) is far more likely.  (And it'd be CLE over CMH or PIT.)

 

Emirates with a 77L or 77W? No way. Hopkins can't handle that type of aircraft. I know technically it could but I'm sure the folks at Emirates will see the limitations of Hopkins right off the bat. They'll fly to Detroit before any of the other cities you mentioned.

 

BTW, are we back to using three letter codes for airports? I thought that was a no-no or is everyone over that now?

 

I agree with much of the above about Hopkins (and the author's conclusion that Detroit is more likely than Cleveland and the other listed cities.) That said, I believe Qatar and Etihad have smaller equipment and Emirates is said to be deciding between the 787 and A350: http://seekingalpha.com/article/4009288-boeing-one-order-save-year

 

As far as fifth freedom routes, Hungary just awarded fifth freedom rights to Qatar (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/qatar-wins-fifth-freedom-aviation-rights-with-hungary-648662.html#.V_8IyvkrKCg) and the UAE is also reportedly interested: http://english.alarabiya.net/en/business/aviation-and-transport/2016/03/18/Emirates-makes-Hungary-latest-front-in-Gulf-US-battleground.html

 

Not that I think Budapest would be a hot or likely market for Cleveland, but I also wouldn't be surprised to read about a new fifth freedom route from Qatar Airways in the not-too-distant future.

 

(Edited to correct Al Arabiya URL.)

I think Budapest would be a tremendous market for Cleveland, which is home to the largest Slovak, Slovene, and Hungarian communities in the world, outside of Slovakia, Slovenia, and Hungary. Not long ago, Cleveland had the second-most Hungarian-born residents in the world, trailing only Budapest. And Slovakia and Slovenia are next door. The Slovenian government has three consulate-generals in the USA: Washington DC, New York City and Cleveland. I'd be shocked if this wasn't a successful flight!

^I suspect that speaks more to the tiny diasporas of those countries than it does to the absolute size of the market for direct flights. No doubt there are still significant ties, but the actual number of Clevelanders born in those countries is pretty tiny now (just a few thousand total).

Still a lot of family ties and business connections. The Consulate General is a strong indication of this.

Still a lot of family ties and business connections. The Consulate General is a strong indication of this.

 

1.) Right now and off the top of my head, I'm not even sure there is any non-stop service from North America to Budapest. If there is service I'd bet it's JFK, Chicago and Toronto only and some of those flights might be seasonal.

 

2.) Nashville has a Japanese Consulate General and Houston has a Greek Consulate General and their odds of landing a non-stop to Tokyo and Athens are nil.

 

3.) Not beat the dead horse again but CLE-Budapest would require widebody (2 aisle) aircraft service. Too many pax for the CLE customs facility that is an ongoing disaster and the major airlines know it.

 

4.) There's the additional issue of getting cargo to fill the belly of a widebody. Where will the cargo come from?

 

I could go and on and on but these reasons are enough.

 

 

 

 

In any case, the most useful service for Clevelanders would be to a major hub. Something that allows two flight travel to an enormous number of European, African and Middle Eastern, destinations. It's boring, but if we get daily direct European again, I hope it's to somewhere like Heathrow, De Gaulle, etc.

 

[Typo]

American is apparently delaying their move to Concourse C until spring. CLE previously said that after their lobby improvements were finished they were going to do some work in the baggage areas. Maybe that's why AA is delaying; it really didn't may a lot of sense to move to C gates and leave the ticketing/baggage handling at the opposite end of the airport. 

 

Sadly, the customs and immigration business sounds like a chicken-egg thing. CLE won't improve the FIS until they get a requirement for it and they won't get a requirement until they improve the FIS.

In any case, the most useful service for Clevelanders would be to a major hub. Something that allows two flight travel to an enormous number of European, African and Middle Eastern, destinations. It's boring, but if we get daily direct European again, I hope it's to somewhere like Heathrow, De Gaulle, etc.

 

[Typo]

 

Yeah..that would have been another point. Budapest isn't really a Euro connection hub. CLE-Budapest would be traffic strictly between the two markets. It's why there's so few flights to there from North America. You need a large dynamic market to feed it and a large hub on the North American end to capture other markets.

 

WOW could work because even though Cleveland-Iceland direct traffic is clearly very small they offer connections through Iceland to many spots to Europe at a very low cost on a much smaller aircraft and only add a few hours than flying direct. It's not really Cleveland-Iceland, it's Cleveland-Europe.

Then most of this beating the drum for European flights into Cleveland is just wishful thinking. There's not much justification until this region starts growing again -- or hub airports become so congested and costly that CLE becomes a realistic option, along with Columbus, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Louisville or any one of many third-level markets that are fighting for relevancy.

Then most of this beating the drum for European flights into Cleveland is just wishful thinking. There's not much justification until this region starts growing again -- or hub airports become so congested and costly that CLE becomes a realistic option, along with Columbus, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Louisville or any one of many third-level markets that are fighting for relevancy.

 

If the FIS could be upgraded, I think Frankfurt could have shot on a low cost Condor 757 because of the connections available on the Euro end. That's why it would be great for Hopkins to snag WOW. If it worked it would show the other Atlantic crossing carriers at least an inkling of what Cleveland could do with Euro traffic post-hub even if it's on ultra-low cost traffic. Maybe wake up the Hopkins folks to modernize the FIS.

Then most of this beating the drum for European flights into Cleveland is just wishful thinking. There's not much justification until this region starts growing again -- or hub airports become so congested and costly that CLE becomes a realistic option, along with Columbus, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Louisville or any one of many third-level markets that are fighting for relevancy.

 

If the FIS could be upgraded, I think Frankfurt could have shot on a low cost Condor 757 because of the connections available on the Euro end. That's why it would be great for Hopkins to snag WOW. If it worked it would show the other Atlantic crossing carriers at least an inkling of what Cleveland could do with Euro traffic post-hub even if it's on ultra-low cost traffic. Maybe wake up the Hopkins folks to modernize the FIS.

 

Not to mention Caribbean, central and south American flights.  I also would like to see a TPAC flight, but that is an even longer stretch.  Medical, Research, etc., is a huge driver in our region and we should be looking at pairing with cities that we do a lot of business like Berlin/Frankfort.  I'm shocked we do not have an El Al flight.  Emirates flights? 

 

Right now the airport should be using concourse D to fix glaring problems around the airport.  It would be nice to have an upgraded FIS station in A.  I've said it before we have a weak westcoast route map.  Working with Alaska (and recently acquired Virgin) to the west coast could be a win-win.  Alaska nor Virgin have big focus cities and CLE being in the middle of the country could help.  I would rather see JetBlue, Virgin, Alaska at CLE than Akron.

The problem with International flights in Cleveland and similar size metro's is that the passenger flow is primarily one way.  That is to say that that most of the revenue is on the Cleveland end.  The statistics say that Cleveland/Europe generates over 300 passenger/day each way.  About half that from Columbus.  Most are going to Europe and returning.  There aren't many Europeans buying tickets to travel to Cleveland.  The revenue/yield stream must flow both ways.

 

Now, I've always said that CLE's best bet for transatlantic is United/Star Alliance through Frankfurt.  United does still have some domestic feed in CLE for connections and with the gate space that they have, they could easily add capacity for some additional feed.

 

American will move to Concourse C in the spring and take six gates which to me signals some kind of expansion.  Six gates could handle 40-50 flights/day.  Could that be for domestic feed for a Oneworld Cleveland/Heathrow connection?

 

Concourse D would make for an interesting international arrival/departure/FIS with some premium domestic feed to facilitate international connections.  One gate at each end could be modified to accept B767, A330 or B787 equipment.

 

I've read on here the argument for low-cost carrier European service.  Keep in mind that such service would be strictly O&D and due to business model, it would have to be nearly full every day that service is provided.

 

As an aside, British Airways will begin A 380 Service to Boston this spring. That says to me that they are planning alot of new AA feed into Boston for oneworld connections as opposed to starting new service.  Time will tell.

That's why it would be great for Hopkins to snag WOW. If it worked it would show the other Atlantic crossing carriers at least an inkling of what Cleveland could do with Euro traffic post-hub even if it's on ultra-low cost traffic.

 

WOW would be great *especially* if it's all we can get.  Given CLE's huge O&D response to Frontier, Spirit, and JetBlue, I don't doubt for a minute the area would support WOW flights, daily in the summer, reduced frequency in the winter. Given WOW's price appeal, they would draw from a larger area than just NE Ohio. I hope it happens.

 

NE Ohio businesses can also support one legacy flight a day in the summer (a couple a week in the winter) to essentially any single European hub like Amsterdam, Frankfurt, London, or Paris; but nobody's currently standing in line to operate that flight. (United's remaining western feed is exactly one city - Milwaukee; all their other western points have non-stops of their own.)  If I were airport management, I'd offer just about anything to get WOW now (or Norwegian or Icelandic).

The problem with International flights in Cleveland and similar size metro's is that the passenger flow is primarily one way.  That is to say that that most of the revenue is on the Cleveland end.  The statistics say that Cleveland/Europe generates over 300 passenger/day each way.  About half that from Columbus.  Most are going to Europe and returning.  There aren't many Europeans buying tickets to travel to Cleveland.  The revenue/yield stream must flow both ways.

 

Now, I've always said that CLE's best bet for transatlantic is United/Star Alliance through Frankfurt.  United does still have some domestic feed in CLE for connections and with the gate space that they have, they could easily add capacity for some additional feed.

 

American will move to Concourse C in the spring and take six gates which to me signals some kind of expansion.  Six gates could handle 40-50 flights/day.  Could that be for domestic feed for a Oneworld Cleveland/Heathrow connection?

 

Concourse D would make for an interesting international arrival/departure/FIS with some premium domestic feed to facilitate international connections.  One gate at each end could be modified to accept B767, A330 or B787 equipment.

 

I've read on here the argument for low-cost carrier European service.  Keep in mind that such service would be strictly O&D and due to business model, it would have to be nearly full every day that service is provided.

 

As an aside, British Airways will begin A 380 Service to Boston this spring. That says to me that they are planning alot of new AA feed into Boston for oneworld connections as opposed to starting new service.  Time will tell.

 

I agree on the O&D traffic, but part of that is marketing as well.  ATL forces people to ATL to connect, that airport/city is hostage super hub.

 

I would like to see D re-purposed for domestic carriers and A expanded for international.

 

The low cost TATL carrier won't service unless their is connections beyond CLE metro.  Then there is the marketing and loyalty aspect.  Many people in CLE are still attached to the (Continental)/United tit.  That codependency is a powerful tool and without another air carrier to fill, first, the business needs the leisure needs will not follow.  You use BOS as the perfect example.

Is the budget for CLE funded out of the City's general fund, or another source. If so could a psuedo government authority be created that would allow the airport to fund and finance it's own projects?

Is the budget for CLE funded out of the City's general fund, or another source. If so could a psuedo government authority be created that would allow the airport to fund and finance it's own projects?

 

The Division of Port Control is sustained by a municipal enterprise fund, not part of the general revenue fund.

Is the budget for CLE funded out of the City's general fund, or another source. If so could a psuedo government authority be created that would allow the airport to fund and finance it's own projects?

 

The Division of Port Control is sustained by a municipal enterprise fund, not part of the general revenue fund.

 

The airport's funds are self-sustaining and tightly regulated by the FAA. In fact last year Hopkins paid the city $10.4 million, the county $5.4 million, and Brookpark $581K for various services those agencies provided.

^what services do the county and brook park provide the airport?

^what services do the county and brook park provide the airport?

 

The FAA report labels the Brookpark amount as "payment in lieu of tax"; the County's amount is labeled "Other". Cleveland's amount is mostly for police and utilities.

"@GCRTA: Effective immediately #22 no longer picks up on ticketing level due to road structure issues at @GoingPlacesCLE  New pick up is in Limo Lot"

 

That doesn't sound good. :?

The problem with International flights in Cleveland and similar size metro's is that the passenger flow is primarily one way.  That is to say that that most of the revenue is on the Cleveland end.  The statistics say that Cleveland/Europe generates over 300 passenger/day each way.  About half that from Columbus.  Most are going to Europe and returning.  There aren't many Europeans buying tickets to travel to Cleveland.  The revenue/yield stream must flow both ways.

 

Now, I've always said that CLE's best bet for transatlantic is United/Star Alliance through Frankfurt.  United does still have some domestic feed in CLE for connections and with the gate space that they have, they could easily add capacity for some additional feed.

 

American will move to Concourse C in the spring and take six gates which to me signals some kind of expansion.  Six gates could handle 40-50 flights/day.  Could that be for domestic feed for a Oneworld Cleveland/Heathrow connection?

 

Concourse D would make for an interesting international arrival/departure/FIS with some premium domestic feed to facilitate international connections.  One gate at each end could be modified to accept B767, A330 or B787 equipment.

 

I've read on here the argument for low-cost carrier European service.  Keep in mind that such service would be strictly O&D and due to business model, it would have to be nearly full every day that service is provided.

 

As an aside, British Airways will begin A 380 Service to Boston this spring. That says to me that they are planning alot of new AA feed into Boston for oneworld connections as opposed to starting new service.  Time will tell.

 

Dougal was saying there was rumor that WOW! was looking at Cleveland that's how the discussion got started.

 

I can tell you first hand Lufthansa/United has zero interest in starting CLE-Frankfurt. There are a lot of obvious reasons I won't repeat on here. It's an endless rumor on Flyertalk/Airliners etc. but it hasn't had legs because it's not real.

 

I agree on your thoughts of O&D to fill a WOW! A321 but it's a smaller plane, it's low-cost Euro flying in a region that has very little and by flying to Iceland it's a one-stop to all the main Euro hubs. If Cleveland is going to get back into the international game waiting for Lufthansa or British is going to be a very long play. I can tell you with certainty that none of the Euro legacy carriers are interested in Cleveland right now. So maybe something unconventional like WOW! will do the trick so at least legacy carriers can see what the Cleveland market can do.

 

That being said I have my doubts that Cleveland is talking to any international airline at this point. Sadly, the people running the place seem very content with the service there now.

 

Concourse D conversion to an FIS facility is pipe-dream. Cleveland has no plans to move the current facility over there.

 

There are several AA stations that aren't hubs in which the airline operates six gates or more but doesn't have transatlantic service. I also know British isn't interested in Cleveland. I believe much like IKEA chose Columbus over Cleveland, British will do the same unless someone within Hopkins actually meets with the folks from London. Even then Cleveland is way, way behind in the BA marketing game. It is what it is.

So depressing to hear about the continued lack of visionary leadership and drive to grow at CLE. Can't think that those running Indy and Nashville and (fill in blank) others similar or smaller than NEO are just sitting idly by, content with the service and facilities like CLE. Unreal.

Dougal was saying there was rumor that WOW! was looking at Cleveland that's how the discussion got started.

 

My understanding is that talks with Wow have ended for now.

 

To interest the legacies (US or foreign) CLE (and other local agencies) will have to shoulder some of the risk either through subsidy or guarantees. It's the only way second-tier cities get international service. Historically, CLE and the civic parties like Team NEO, GCP, etc. have never been willing to do this.

So depressing to hear about the continued lack of visionary leadership and drive to grow at CLE. Can't think that those running Indy and Nashville and (fill in blank) others similar or smaller than NEO are just sitting idly by, content with the service and facilities like CLE. Unreal.

 

I think in the next decade or two you'll see Columbus just blow Cleveland out of the water in terms of air travel destinations. They already have Emirates cargo service. They have a great argument to interested carriers in how they service their airports not to mention the fast growing economy down there.

 

Concourse D conversion to an FIS facility is pipe-dream. Cleveland has no plans to move the current facility over there.

 

 

Can they even really do anything with concourse D without giving up the revenue from United?  If they can't, I see them sitting on Concourse D until 2027 unless there is a financial incentive for them not to.

 

Watching FlightAware this morning has been very interesting.  I don't know if Burke has ever been that busy, and a copious amount of extra General Aviation flights out of CLE as well.

^I have never seen Burke as crowded as it was last night.  They had planes parked on the far East end of runway 6R/24L.

You know we have a Burke thread?

There's a rumor of WOW Air coming to CLE. WOW is an Icelandic low-cost carrier that offers relatively cheap US-Europe connections via Iceland. Next summer, maybe?

 

WOW! just announced they are starting 4x weekly from Pittsburgh to Iceland. Great job on the rumor Dougal, if they started this service so close by you had to think they were talking to Cleveland as well.

 

Unfortunately it is also another example of Hopkins folks not being able to close the deal on international service and I'm sure other carriers noticed again. Those on here who defend Hopkins as good enough in it's current state should enjoy driving to places like Columbus, Pittsburgh and Detroit or flying through a legacy hub if you want to visit an international destination in the forseeable future. It is what it is.

WOW! just announced they are starting 4x weekly from Pittsburgh to Iceland. Great job on the rumor Dougal, if they started this service so close by you had to think they were talking to Cleveland as well.

 

They were talking to CLE and the discussions were very detailed.  I guess they went home and decided PIT's deal was better. I'd sure like to know if PIT offered any subsidy (which is how they got their Paris flight) - something CLE has been unwilling to do.

WOW! just announced they are starting 4x weekly from Pittsburgh to Iceland. Great job on the rumor Dougal, if they started this service so close by you had to think they were talking to Cleveland as well.

 

They were talking to CLE and the discussions were very detailed.  I guess they went home and decided PIT's deal was better. I'd sure like to know if PIT offered any subsidy (which is how they got their Paris flight) - something CLE has been unwilling to do.

 

The spokesperson for Allegheny County Airports Authority said the airline was not just looking at Pittsburgh. No mention of a subsidy. It's going to be a year round flight so this pretty much closes the door on Cleveland getting service there and possibly any non-stop service to Europe at all.

I thought United had a CLE flight to Gatwick a few years back. Did they get rid of it?

PIT's facilities and terminal certainly couldn't have hurt. Though traffic somewhat similar to CLE, PIT reads  "big city"...

I thought United had a CLE flight to Gatwick a few years back. Did they get rid of it?

 

All London and Paris flights haven't operated in over a half-decade.

 

PIT's facilities and terminal certainly couldn't have hurt. Though traffic somewhat similar to CLE, PIT reads  "big city"...

 

WOW! is more like Spirit or Frontier than a traditional international carrier. They're not looking for high-end amenities. Perfect for Cleveland IMHO but I guess Pittsburgh offered them a better deal.

 

I could very well be wrong but I think Szabo and his folks weren't really seeking them out, it looks more like WOW! was looking for a new market and Cleveland was on their list. Folks in Pittsburgh are more adept at knowing what an international carrier wants and are actually are talking to British, Lufthansa, Qatar and Emirates. It makes sense they landed WOW! that way. Meanwhile Szabo's crew thinks it's a big-time catch to move Allegiant from Akron-Canton to Cleveland. It's maddening for an area large enough to support at least one Euro non-stop that airport leaders don't really care to pursue it.