For those who can access WSJ - here's a fascinating read about the Charlotte airport... and what dehubbing, or the fear of it, can do.... Their approach is the opposite of what CLE has been doing.. and is really almost offensive to travelers... at least in $$$ - but productive.

 

(For those who can't access - it basically explains - finally - why a metro much smaller than NEO, with a modest # of local passengers but huge connecting #s - has 700 flights a day to 170 destinations, far more than they should have - 90% on American with almost no low price competition - but extremely high fares, to boot - and why the CLT airport wouldn't have it any other way and does nothing to irritate American. They don't want to be the next dehubbed Pittsburgh, it's said, so they do everything to limit competition... Good for American due to extra low passenger costs - their most profitable hub. Great for business travelers, connection-wise.. Horrible for consumers, cost-wise.)

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-an-american-airlines-monopoly-works-for-charlotte-1519225740

 

Limiting competition for one corporation to the expense of people who live there. Just another reason not to live in the back@sswards Carolinas.

 

Isn't that kind of how CVG used to operate with Delta at one point?

United employees at CLE have been warned that layoffs may be imminent.  This hasn't preceded any service reduction announcements, but I wonder what the reason behind it is.  It could just be plain old cost reduction (at their former "unprofitable for over a decade" hub) but I wonder.  Gotta pay for their network expansion and potential ORD expansion somehow, I suppose.

 

United employees at CLE have been warned that layoffs may be imminent.  This hasn't preceded any service reduction announcements, but I wonder what the reason behind it is.  It could just be plain old cost reduction (at their former "unprofitable for over a decade" hub) but I wonder.  Gotta pay for their network expansion and potential ORD expansion somehow, I suppose.

 

 

Greatttt that means any flight arriving after 7 pm will have an even longer wait for their luggage.  Not that I mind waiting 45 minutes for my bags after a 38 minute flight from ORD.    >:(

United employees at CLE have been warned that layoffs may be imminent.  This hasn't preceded any service reduction announcements, but I wonder what the reason behind it is.  It could just be plain old cost reduction (at their former "unprofitable for over a decade" hub) but I wonder.  Gotta pay for their network expansion and potential ORD expansion somehow, I suppose.

 

Hope it's not further cuts. I think the next level down will be service to UA hubs only.

 

One possibility could be they are transferring positions to a contractor. I believe the last union agreement with ground handlers removed Cleveland from the list of stations where they could only hire/transfer employees through United. We'll see.

Delta just announced Cleveland-Salt Lake City flights beginning in July.

^this has been rumored to happen for a while now---Great to hear that its finally official.  Service will be daily with an A319.

^ CLE-SLC will also be year-round, and I believe the inaugural flight is July 8 to CLE. Each flight arrives at 10:50pm and departs 8:30 the next morning. Oh,and the prices aren’t crazy-expensive.

pumped about this one.  Say what you want about CLE.  The guy in charge is getting things done.  He's banking on the region and people to make him look good.  Really want the Europe flights to work and the SLC flight too.  Will try to take it as a gateway to the West instead of United, as i know the Denver flights arent going anywhere. 

AA is increasing their service on CLE-NYC.  In June, AA increases CLE-LGA to 4x--June only (so far), but CLE-JFK increases from 1 to 3 in June and July and from 1 to 2 for Aug to Nov. That's a big upgrade for AA for CLE-JFK. Maybe to provide competition to the Icelandics. Also makes it more difficult for B6 to enter the route if they any plans to do so.

AA is increasing their service on CLE-NYC.

 

It shows a commitment by AA to the CLE market that I wasn't so sure about, given AA's cuts in Pittsburgh (a similar market) over the past year or so. AA or their joint venture partner BA is  the most logical airline to fly Cleveland-London; this NYC add makes me think it might happen by the summer of 2019. (It also helps that AA is seriously annoyed with UA over Chicago airport plans.)

this NYC add makes me think it might happen by the summer of 2019.

 

What does "it" refer to? Direct CLE-LHR service? If so, are you saying this would happen after pax get used to CLE-JFK-LHR on AA/BA?  If that's the case, it would be hurting AA's own JFK-LHR if passengers already demonstrate they're willing to take that route. Or are you saying, it will stimulate enough demand to warrant a direct BA/AA route CLE-LHR? Not sure of the arrangement between AA and BA, but if BA wanted to serve CLE-LHR, does AA have to agree? And would it be on AA or BA metal? And if AA has to agree, would they do it if it means diminished demand on ORD- and JFK- LHR routes? Or would they see it as capturing CLE-LHR that is otherwise going to DL and UA (and soon, FI and WW)?

With all of the back-office functions being moved from New York to Cleveland, this expansion of CLE-NYC flights sounds logical.

 

BTW, Joe Roman said to look for a Cleveland-mainland Europe direct flight announcement. So is the speculation here that a CLE-LHR flight would be in addition to that?

^Yes, but I don't think this is real CLE-LHR speculation---its just projection from 2 extra flights to JFK!  A Cleveland - LHR service makes sense though, as London is the #1 TATL destination for CLE. The Joe Roman comment will probably be Condor to Frankfurt or something like that.

AA is increasing their service on CLE-NYC.  In June, AA increases CLE-LGA to 4x--June only (so far), but CLE-JFK increases from 1 to 3 in June and July and from 1 to 2 for Aug to Nov. That's a big upgrade for AA for CLE-JFK. Maybe to provide competition to the Icelandics. Also makes it more difficult for B6 to enter the route if they any plans to do so.

 

One thing that has happened as well is a significant capacity increase to PHL on AA.  It used to be all regional, now there are two E-190's (100 seaters, but still considered "mainline").  AA does use PHL as an international gateway as well.

^Plinth857--when does this capacity shift begin?

this NYC add makes me think it might happen by the summer of 2019.

 

What does "it" refer to? Direct CLE-LHR service? If so, are you saying this would happen after pax get used to CLE-JFK-LHR on AA/BA?  If that's the case, it would be hurting AA's own JFK-LHR if passengers already demonstrate they're willing to take that route. Or are you saying, it will stimulate enough demand to warrant a direct BA/AA route CLE-LHR? Not sure of the arrangement between AA and BA, but if BA wanted to serve CLE-LHR, does AA have to agree? And would it be on AA or BA metal? And if AA has to agree, would they do it if it means diminished demand on ORD- and JFK- LHR routes? Or would they see it as capturing CLE-LHR that is otherwise going to DL and UA (and soon, FI and WW)?

 

Yes. The almost doubling of CLE-NYC service is very significant. The LaGuardia and Kennedy slots used for the new flights are valuable; using them for CLE flights says to me that American considers the CLE market worth that capital investment. American is also expanding the CLE-Dallas schedule by one more nonstop this summer and continuing that flight into the fall. This expansion also raises the likelihood that American will re-enter the CLE-Los Angeles market, LA being their Asian gateway hub in addition to being a large CLE domestic market, presently served mainly by United.

 

Meanwhile the CLE-Europe/MiddleEast market has grown, it is larger and probably more business-oriented than it was when Continental discontinued service almost ten years ago. I believe the two Icelanders will greatly stimulate the tourist market to Europe, but their flights will still leave room for conventional non-stop service from CLE via the BA hub in London. AA will have the greatest interest in CLE-LHR.

The AA adds feel more like a shot at UA more than any service to London. I think they're smelling blood in the water and would like nothing more than to eat away at UAs large FF base in Greater Cleveland.

 

Will UA respond?

^Plinth857--when does this capacity shift begin?

 

It already has.  Tomorrow for example is 4 E190's (100 seat), 1 E75 (76 seat), and 1 E145 (50 seat).  Other than the 145, two class configuration for all of them.  They dial that capacity back a bit in the summer though.

The AA adds feel more like a shot at UA more than any service to London. I think they're smelling blood in the water and would like nothing more than to eat away at UAs large FF base in Greater Cleveland.

 

Will UA respond?

 

I doubt it... they seem OK with letting their FF base whittle itself down (much like their CLE based crew and whatnot seem to be getting whittled down via attrition).  In the end, they will be just another carrier in CLE without any distinction other than having formerly had a hub operation here (twice).

I, personally, have become an AA guy.  I use to only fly continental or united...now im pretty much AA unless i can get a direct to SF or LA or Houston.  I feel like the AAdvantage program is better and frankly i have felt the experience has been better (except for flying through Miami).  I wonder if there is something to AA smelling blood in the water like AmRap says

If UA doesnt respond...and they pretty much become second or third fiddle in CLE, what a financial disaster, right?  Wouldnt it behoove them to try and recap some of their loss through the Terminal D contract with have connections and routing people through cleveland for 10 + years than doing nothing?

If UA doesnt respond...and they pretty much become second or third fiddle in CLE, what a financial disaster, right?  Wouldnt it behoove them to try and recap some of their loss through the Terminal D contract with have connections and routing people through cleveland for 10 + years than doing nothing?

 

UA is about to lose me after the experience I had their last week (which was really a problem with Expressjet).  One thing in their favor is the United club, which I use often if the wife drops me early as a place to relax and get work done. 

 

Worth noting:

 

In talking with the United Club staff, they don't think they will go away--layoffs are going to hit gate agents and ramp people (and they are hoping for retirements of senior staff).

 

During my long delay there, I walked around the United "banjo" several times that afternoon and evening and not many mainline aircraft was coming or going.  Mostly ERJs.

The AA adds feel more like a shot at UA more than any service to London. I think they're smelling blood in the water and would like nothing more than to eat away at UAs large FF base in Greater Cleveland.

 

Will UA respond?

 

I doubt it... they seem OK with letting their FF base whittle itself down (much like their CLE based crew and whatnot seem to be getting whittled down via attrition).  In the end, they will be just another carrier in CLE without any distinction other than having formerly had a hub operation here (twice).

 

I think you are right and I'm sensing AA is finding this out as well hence the increase in service. I even think DL's Salt Lake City flight is a bit in response to UA slowly unwinding CLE although it's part of broader expansion (DL recently started PIT-SLC).

 

I still think UA might respond a bit only because they are on the hook for D for another decade and this isn't Spirit or Frontier who don't really carry people that are legacy FFs.  UA hasn't dropped Milwaukee yet despite Southwest throwing two 737s on that route so they are willing to defend some turf. We'll just have to see.

 

Worth noting:

 

In talking with the United Club staff, they don't think they will go away--layoffs are going to hit gate agents and ramp people (and they are hoping for retirements of senior staff).

 

 

I think you are correct in that... when United renewed their lease for the banjo gates, part of that included an agreement to operate the United Club in CLE for at least another decade.  (through 2027 I believe?)

Cleveland Hopkins 'most improved' airport in North America, survey says

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/03/post_381.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Cleveland Hopkins International Airport is the "most improved" airport in North America, according to the 2017 Airport Service Quality Survey.

 

The city-owned airport "posted its best customer service scores last year since the airport began participation in the global service quality program in 2006," the city reported Tuesday in a news release about the survey.

 

"Cleveland Hopkins International Airport continues to focus on improving visitor experience in all aspects of customer service," Mayor Frank Jackson said in the release.

 

Hopkins' survey scores are its highest in more than a decade.

^^I can see this.  I really have no complaints except for:

 

A. The size of the bathrooms (which doesn't matter to me if United Club is open)

 

B. The walk from the C-Banjo to bag claim late night via the B checkpoint exit, then back to United bag claim under the C checkpoint exit.  Also not a huge issue for me unless coming back from a LONNNG day and I just want to get home.  But United usually takes a good 40 minutes to get the bags there, so there is no need for urgency on the walk. 

^40 minutes? I realize that may be hyperbole, put I have heard that they are crazy slow and/or understaffed.  I think UA wants to reduce the number of baggage people at CLE, which will make this far worse. Just another way for UA to say F[/member]$# You to Cleveland.  Being a market of 3-5MM people, I'm very baffled by the way United treats Cleveland, both in terms of air service and stuff like poor bagging handling.

^^I can see this.  I really have no complaints except for:

 

A. The size of the bathrooms (which doesn't matter to me if United Club is open)

 

B. The walk from the C-Banjo to bag claim late night via the B checkpoint exit, then back to United bag claim under the C checkpoint exit.  Also not a huge issue for me unless coming back from a LONNNG day and I just want to get home.  But United usually takes a good 40 minutes to get the bags there, so there is no need for urgency on the walk.

 

FIS facility is poor.

This caught my eye:

 

Kennedy has said he expects an additional 500,000 passengers will use the airport in 2018, and by 2019 that traffic could eclipse 10 million passengers.

 

Frontier is pulling back pretty significantly. Even with Icelandics/Delta/AA adds it's hard to envision that type of growth this year unless he knows something we don't.

 

Since he's been pretty spot on with his "predicitions" so far, it makes me wonder if additional service is coming sooner than later. It would have to be a decent amount to cover Frontier losses and add another half million passengers.

^ I doubt the Frontier cuts will have much impact on overall passenger counts. 

^ I doubt the Frontier cuts will have much impact on overall passenger counts.

 

OK. Why? It's a decent cut and Frontier became a decent sized operation last summer. Who's going to replace that service currently?

^ How many passengers do you think used Frontier in 2017?

 

How full are Frontier's planes?

 

For the month of June, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation:

 

Cleveland to Atlanta: 89 percent full

 

Charlotte: 82 percent full

 

Houston: 80 percent full

 

San Diego: 79 percent full

 

San Francisco: 73 percent full

 

Los Angeles: 73 percent full

 

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2017/09/frontier_airlines_cuts_six_rou.html

Frontier also recently added Miami, and Austin which begins in April.

F9’s July schedule is 8 flights, last July was 12.5 flights. That equates to almost 50,000 less departing and arriving seats. Just sayin'.

 

All those load factors you mention are now 0 percent for Frontier this summer.

 

Not quite sure why you want to debate over this? I was actually making a positive statement originally. I think there may be more expansion from other carriers in the cards.

So were the Austin and Miami numbers last summer..

Only a 50k loss and that was before the Austin and Miami adds.

 

Right for one month....he's talking yearly. Five months...that's 250K out the window. That means he's predicting growth of roughly 750K. That's not a small number.

 

Austin is down to 2x weekly on Frontier. Even with Miami, it's not covering those losses.

So none of those passengers will find other airlines to fly with?

 

How could it be down to two? I thought the route doesn’t start until April.

So none of those passengers will find other airlines to fly with?

 

Are you just trying to argue? I don't understand this.

I’m just asking questions

I’m just asking questions

 

OK. I'm too busy for this. You win. Frontier cutting their operation by 1/3 will have no impact on passenger totals at Hopkins.

Wow, sensitive much?

Wow, sensitive much?

 

No, not sensitive, I'm really busy. I think a made the point already. Feel free to disagree.

^40 minutes? I realize that may be hyperbole, put I have heard that they are crazy slow and/or understaffed.  I think UA wants to reduce the number of baggage people at CLE, which will make this far worse. Just another way for UA to say F[/member]$# You to Cleveland.  Being a market of 3-5MM people, I'm very baffled by the way United treats Cleveland, both in terms of air service and stuff like poor bagging handling.

 

Not really--I come in on the later ORD flights all the time connecting from the West Coast.  It isn't unusual to be at the gate and still waiting for bags 40-45 minutes later (I'm usually up front and one of the first off the plane). 

^40 minutes? I realize that may be hyperbole, put I have heard that they are crazy slow and/or understaffed.  I think UA wants to reduce the number of baggage people at CLE, which will make this far worse. Just another way for UA to say F[/member]$# You to Cleveland.  Being a market of 3-5MM people, I'm very baffled by the way United treats Cleveland, both in terms of air service and stuff like poor bagging handling.

 

Not really--I come in on the later ORD flights all the time connecting from the West Coast.  It isn't unusual to be at the gate and still waiting for bags 40-45 minutes later (I'm usually up front and one of the first off the plane). 

I haven't taken United with checked baggage for a while, so I can't attest to this, but the last time I came off a mainline UA flight it was around 11:35 PM arrival... bags weren't on the carousel until about 12:10 AM.  I dread the longer trips that require me to check bags.  I've had better luck arriving mid-day or early evening with baggage wait times it seems.

^40 minutes? I realize that may be hyperbole, put I have heard that they are crazy slow and/or understaffed.  I think UA wants to reduce the number of baggage people at CLE, which will make this far worse. Just another way for UA to say F[/member]$# You to Cleveland.  Being a market of 3-5MM people, I'm very baffled by the way United treats Cleveland, both in terms of air service and stuff like poor bagging handling.

 

Not really--I come in on the later ORD flights all the time connecting from the West Coast.  It isn't unusual to be at the gate and still waiting for bags 40-45 minutes later (I'm usually up front and one of the first off the plane). 

 

That's absolutely crazy. I've noticed even getting your gate checked bag at CLE from an RJ flight takes 6-8 minutes AFTER you have de-boarded the plane and I usually sit towards the front. I've had to get gate checked bags at DTW on DL and the wait was literally about 60 seconds after i got off the plane (from the same part of the plane as i would be sitting on UA). I don't know if UA is slow systemwide or just so at CLE.

^40 minutes? I realize that may be hyperbole, put I have heard that they are crazy slow and/or understaffed.  I think UA wants to reduce the number of baggage people at CLE, which will make this far worse. Just another way for UA to say F[/member]$# You to Cleveland.  Being a market of 3-5MM people, I'm very baffled by the way United treats Cleveland, both in terms of air service and stuff like poor bagging handling.

 

Not really--I come in on the later ORD flights all the time connecting from the West Coast.  It isn't unusual to be at the gate and still waiting for bags 40-45 minutes later (I'm usually up front and one of the first off the plane). 

I haven't taken United with checked baggage for a while, so I can't attest to this, but the last time I came off a mainline UA flight it was around 11:35 PM arrival... bags weren't on the carousel until about 12:10 AM.  I dread the longer trips that require me to check bags.  I've had better luck arriving mid-day or early evening with baggage wait times it seems.

 

If for some reason there is more than one arrival, you're looking at closer to an hour for your bags.  I truly believe after XX:XXpm, United goes down to a skeleton ramp crew.  We'd need some insider information to confirm....

Hey guys,

 

Like everything else in my life, I’m turning to UO for guidance...

 

I’m having my bachelor party sometime in November. Anyone have any cheap direct flights out of Cleveland? Ideally, we’d love to make it a golf trip or Center around golfing. I know Cleveland to Boston is usually very cheap, but I’m somewhat ignorant to other deals. I just don’t want to stretch my groomsmen too thin on the budget. Thanks!

There some cheap flights to Orlando and Fort Lauderdale ($200-250 RT), both nice destinations in November.

There are always cheap flights to Las Vegas. 

Hey guys,

 

Like everything else in my life, I’m turning to UO for guidance...

 

I’m having my bachelor party sometime in November. Anyone have any cheap direct flights out of Cleveland? Ideally, we’d love to make it a golf trip or Center around golfing. I know Cleveland to Boston is usually very cheap, but I’m somewhat ignorant to other deals. I just don’t want to stretch my groomsmen too thin on the budget. Thanks!

 

If you're looking for cheap just look up Frontier/Spirit/Allegiant deals. They all go to the US sun destinations in the fall. One of those three will have very cheap direct flights this far out. If you have a large group you might think about booking with the airline directly to get a decent group rate including Southwest. UA/DL/AA offer group rates as well but if you don't want to connect your options will be limited.