On 7/23/2019 at 7:08 PM, Terdolph said:

So does that mean that UA might re-hub Cleveland at some point?

As someone who works for UA I don't believe we'll ever see another hub in CLE, but they grew the in-flight base here by over 100 flight attendants in the last few months, so hopefully some growth is on its way. They added a third SFO flight starting in August, so that's a start. 

On 7/23/2019 at 7:08 PM, Terdolph said:

So does that mean that UA might re-hub Cleveland at some point?

Lol I wish, but there’s a hardly a ghost of a chance. One positive is that UA has been moderately expanding and Cleveland is their one true “focus city” now...

7 hours ago, ws966112 said:

As someone who works for UA I don't believe we'll ever see another hub in CLE, but they grew the in-flight base here by over 100 flight attendants in the last few months, so hopefully some growth is on its way. They added a third SFO flight starting in August, so that's a start. 

 

I understand there were 3 CLE pilot vacancies on the last UA mainline bid that got filled. Previously (post-2014) any vacancies that developed at the CLE base were zeroed out.

Are there any plans for terminal D?

The short answer: no. United has lease obligations through 2027. That said, I’m assuming the plans for D will be updated with the new airport Master Plan being worked on. 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2014/02/what_will_become_of_concourse.html

 

“United, which merged with Continental in 2010, is obligated by its lease to continue paying on the outstanding debt for the $110 million Concourse D, the city’s Director of Port Control Ricky Smith said in an interview Tuesday. The airline will pay $1,112,482 per month until 2027, regardless of its flight activity.”

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2018/03/reopening_cleveland_hopkins_mo.html

 

“Growth in passenger traffic through Cleveland Hopkins International Airport has some travelers and City Council members asking whether the airport will need to re-open the mothballed Concourse D.

Airport Director Robert Kennedy would not rule out the possibility in an interview with cleveland.com, but said the concourse would first need millions of dollars in upgrades to adapt to a changing airline industry.”

 

(Note: this work would primarily be to upgrade gates and taxiways that were designed for small regional jets so that they could be used by full sized jets.)

 

Midweek updates:

 

June numbers have been released. 4.88 million pax at this year’s midpoint, up 4.5% over 2018. Considering July/Aug and the seasonal holiday rush, we’re on pace for 10M for the first time since pre-recession and the subsequent loss of CO’s London & Paris service. 

 

Interestingly, recent sources have strongly pointed towards Icelandair returning to CLE for 2020 and beyond (assuming the 737 MAX is airworthy by then, which it should...).

 

First Aer Lingus A321XLR rolled off the assembly line. If we land EI  for 2020/21, this aircraft would most likely serve the route (DUB).

 

 

11 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

What kind of an airplane would be necessary to fly direct from Cleveland to Rome?

 

An imaginary one. I don't see the market for it. There's probably a market for Cleveland to London, Dublin or Frankfurt.

Most transatlantic flights are wide-body aircraft. 

@KJP, what about Amsterdam? Isn't that a big connecting airport for mainland Europe? I am pretty ignorant when it comes to transatlantic flights.

Some 767's  have the range to fly the route ; all 777 and 787's have the range.  Whether there would be enough passengers paying a high enough fare to make it profitable is another question.

1 minute ago, KFM44107 said:

@KJP, what about Amsterdam? Isn't that a big connecting airport for mainland Europe? I am pretty ignorant when it comes to transatlantic flights.

 

Yes, definitely. I just didn't want to start listing too many airports. I've always found that connections to Eastern Europe, where many Greater Clevelanders are from and still have family and business interests, are better through Frankfurt than Amsterdam. 

26 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Yes, definitely. I just didn't want to start listing too many airports. I've always found that connections to Eastern Europe, where many Greater Clevelanders are from and still have family and business interests, are better through Frankfurt than Amsterdam. 

 

True--thanks to the Star Alliance legacy fliers here in CLE.  

Dublin seems like the most realistic fit for Cleveland, without having to put together a big incentive package for a legacy carrier to test a route.  

 

Dublin would be a good mix of leisure and business travelers, especially with the city positioned to grab a lot of EU business from London post-Brexit.  You can connect to basically anywhere in Europe through Dublin, and the flight is about as short as possible for trans-Atlantic.  

Cleveland should be going after one of these routes.  With all the legacy United/Continental FF's here, surely the Lufthansa *alliance space would be sought after without having to connect in Newark or Chicago? 

 

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2019/08/07/lufthansa-group-announces-five-new-north-america-routes-for-summer-2020/

There is some chatter about CLE landing Aer Lingus for CLE-Dublin service beginning Summer 2020.  AerLingus typically announces their new summer schedules in the preceding late August/early September timeframe to push marketing, ticket sales, etc.  So if the rumor is true, we should know relatively soon.

 

 

4 hours ago, Pugu said:

There is some chatter about CLE landing Aer Lingus for CLE-Dublin service beginning Summer 2020.  AerLingus typically announces their new summer schedules in the preceding late August/early September timeframe to push marketing, ticket sales, etc.  So if the rumor is true, we should know relatively soon.

 

 

 

Fingers crossed for this. One particularly good benefit is that Dublin airport has US customs and immigration, meaning that flight would be treated as a domestic inbound flight. You wouldn’t have to deal with the clusterf* that is the current US customs situation at Hopkins.

 

https://www.dublinairport.com/flight-information/travelling-to-usa/usa-preclearance

 

Edited August 9, 20195 yr by Boomerang_Brian
Typo

Good news, as the article states, the bond rating boost could save the airport tens of millions of dollars as it looks to pay off debt and undertake massive capital projects.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019/08/cleveland-hopkins-international-airport-gets-bond-rating-boost-could-save-millions-in-borrowing-costs.html

Edited August 17, 20195 yr by cle_guy90

21 minutes ago, cle_guy90 said:

Good news, as the article states, the bond rating boost could save the airport tens of millions of dollars as it looks to pay off debt and undertake massive capital projects.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019/08/cleveland-hopkins-international-airport-gets-bond-rating-boost-could-save-millions-in-borrowing-costs.html

 

This is particularly important as the airport looks to implement a new master plan. This is great and the timing is excellent. 

On 8/17/2019 at 11:32 AM, cle_guy90 said:

Good news, as the article states, the bond rating boost could save the airport tens of millions of dollars as it looks to pay off debt and undertake massive capital projects.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019/08/cleveland-hopkins-international-airport-gets-bond-rating-boost-could-save-millions-in-borrowing-costs.html

 

A serious reconstruction (or replacement) of the terminal building could easily cost $1 billion or more. Assuming CLE pays down the existing debt some more before borrowing new money, the total airport debt could be $1.5 billion by 2025. Saving a point on that is $15 million a year.

United Airlines is restoring year-round service between Cleveland and Fort Lauderdale eff. April 28, 2020. The route will run past the usual seasonal hiatus date, and will run daily utilizing a Boeing 737-800. Service to Tampa and Fort Myers is currently still seasonal. 

Red Line at Hopkins finally reopened after a being closed for like 3 months.

 

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/Cleveland-RTA-reopens-Red-Line--58411

So - full disclosure, this is fully a rumor I heard and I have no way to substantiate it - but I guess that's what UO is for lol...

 

But I've heard there's preliminary talks about Frontier leasing the dead terminal from United as Frontier looks to become a primary domestic airline in the US, with the likes of Delta, Southwest, American, and United - hoping to leave the Spirit, Allegiant, et al discount airline stigma behind. 

 

If there's any truth to this, and Frontier is looking to grow and expand hubs, this could be big time. 

There’s talk across other forums and sites that British Airways will be announcing its 2020 TATL routes this week. Will Cleveland finally score? 

6 hours ago, YABO713 said:

So - full disclosure, this is fully a rumor I heard and I have no way to substantiate it - but I guess that's what UO is for lol...

 

But I've heard there's preliminary talks about Frontier leasing the dead terminal from United as Frontier looks to become a primary domestic airline in the US, with the likes of Delta, Southwest, American, and United - hoping to leave the Spirit, Allegiant, et al discount airline stigma behind. 

 

If there's any truth to this, and Frontier is looking to grow and expand hubs, this could be big time. 

 

This is interesting. F9 could certainly use an eastern hub---they only have Denver--whether or not they transition out of being an LCC or not. They certainly were the airline that responded quicker than any other to fill the void in CLE after UA's dehubbing--beating out Southwest who was incumbent and Spirit. But Concourse "D" alone though would make for a fairly small hub operation though. Hopefully the rumor will amount to something. Southwest clearly has shown a lack of interest in CLE, and we're not likely going to get a hub from DL/UA/AA, so I welcome Frontier!

2 hours ago, avtcle said:

There’s talk across other forums and sites that British Airways will be announcing its 2020 TATL routes this week. Will Cleveland finally score? 

 

This would be very, very good for the city. When exactly is BA's announcement?

On 8/26/2019 at 5:02 PM, YABO713 said:

So - full disclosure, this is fully a rumor I heard and I have no way to substantiate it - but I guess that's what UO is for lol...

 

But I've heard there's preliminary talks about Frontier leasing the dead terminal from United as Frontier looks to become a primary domestic airline in the US, with the likes of Delta, Southwest, American, and United - hoping to leave the Spirit, Allegiant, et al discount airline stigma behind. 

 

If there's any truth to this, and Frontier is looking to grow and expand hubs, this could be big time. 

 

 

F9 just announced a 15 city expansion from (and market entry at) EWR. Cleveland wasn't one of them.  If they were trying to build a hub here, certainly NYC would be an important market. The lack of EWR-CLE proves nothing wrt a future hub, but its not supportive of growing traffic to/from CLE. The EWR destinations are:  Chicago, Denver, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Ontario, Dallas/FW, Atlanta, Raleigh/Durham, Orlando, West Palm, Miami, Tampa, Cancun, San Juan, and Punta Cana. 

Edited August 28, 20195 yr by Pugu

Keep an eye on Aer Lingus—they typically release their upcoming spring/summer schedule in mid-September and there’s a good chance CLE could be their newest spoke from Dublin in a few weeks’ time.

4 hours ago, Boxtruffles said:

Keep an eye on Aer Lingus—they typically release their upcoming spring/summer schedule in mid-September and there’s a good chance CLE could be their newest spoke from Dublin in a few weeks’ time.

 

This is making more and more sense now that they are partnering with Air Canada and United (though not members of *Alliance that I can tell)

On 8/26/2019 at 8:46 PM, avtcle said:

There’s talk across other forums and sites that British Airways will be announcing its 2020 TATL routes this week. Will Cleveland finally score? 

I'm an outsider with this stuff, but I feel like to attract BA to CLE there'd have to be huge incentives and subsidization. I'm only speaking from experience from when I lived in Pittsburgh but a lot of their European routes were pretty heavily subsidized. 

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

I'm an outsider with this stuff, but I feel like to attract BA to CLE there'd have to be huge incentives and subsidization. I'm only speaking from experience from when I lived in Pittsburgh but a lot of their European routes were pretty heavily subsidized. 

BA is a huge long shot. They already fly 787s into PIT year-round. Almost any carrier other than BA is likelier (think Aer Lingus, Norwegian, maybe a US or EU mainline considering large subsidies).

From what I've heard from airport people, it doesn't sound like any significant subsidy/incentive package for a transatlantic flight has been organized by the regional interests that would need to be involved. So I wouldn't expect any EU mainline carrier to add CLE in the foreseeable future unless that changes.  There is some hope for Aer Lingus though, and I think their visit earlier this year is a promising sign.  Fingers crossed 

 

 

^Are you saying there is no subsidy/incentive package for Aer Lingus?  Also, is the region only putting up subsidies for BA/AA, DL/KL/AF, and UA/LH--just the big legacy carriers?

I have no info specifically about Aer Lingus, but it was indicated that there was not an incentive package available at the level that would be required to get a flight into Heathrow, Paris, Frankfurt, etc, on the big legacy carriers.  

i recently spoke with someone who works for Frontier.  They are planning on purchasing a huge fleet of planes that have range to Europe in the next couple of years.  He expects Frontier to use that range from CLE to more unique European destinations and he does believe there will be nice growth in CLE

6 hours ago, BelievelandD1 said:

i recently spoke with someone who works for Frontier.  They are planning on purchasing a huge fleet of planes that have range to Europe in the next couple of years.  He expects Frontier to use that range from CLE to more unique European destinations and he does believe there will be nice growth in CLE

Frontier will be adding 18 of the A321XLR. That's not a huge fleet but the plane should be able to reach Europe from CLE, CMH, or CVG. I don't expect them to announce a big expansion to Europe with those planes as they will also be using that aircraft on other market segments such as Hawaii and Alaska.

On 8/28/2019 at 10:41 AM, Boxtruffles said:

Keep an eye on Aer Lingus—they typically release their upcoming spring/summer schedule in mid-September and there’s a good chance CLE could be their newest spoke from Dublin in a few weeks’ time.

 

 

i saw norwegian is in a battle with aer lingus for cheap usa routes. unfortunately they rely on the 737 max or whatever that plane is that is having problems. whenever that is resolved maybe they will try again. 

Cleveland Hopkins will keep shuttle drop off at north end of terminal; improvements planned

Link: https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/09/cleveland-hopkins-will-keep-shuttle-drop-off-at-north-end-of-terminal-improvements-planned.html 

 

" Cleveland Hopkins plans to keep the shuttle bus pick-up and drop-off location where it is now, at the north end of the terminal, and will invest $3 million to improve the site and make it more passenger-friendly." 

18 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

Cleveland Hopkins will keep shuttle drop off at north end of terminal; improvements planned

Link: https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/09/cleveland-hopkins-will-keep-shuttle-drop-off-at-north-end-of-terminal-improvements-planned.html 

 

" Cleveland Hopkins plans to keep the shuttle bus pick-up and drop-off location where it is now, at the north end of the terminal, and will invest $3 million to improve the site and make it more passenger-friendly." 

The pickup area was SO much better in the central/former location across bridge - no matter how temporary feeling. It beat standing out on an island in the middle of the road, as in prior years, no matter how relatively close to the terminal. 

 

The current location leads the bus users past the outdoor smoking area, which is always a great thing, and is considerably further from the United concourse where so many travelers begin are starting/ending their trip. But whatever ..

Moody’s again raising its bond rating for Cleveland Hopkins International Airport

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Moody’s Investors Service, one of the three major bond rating services, has announced it will upgrade Cleveland Hopkins International Airport’s bond rating for a second time in 13 months, according to the airport.

 

The upgrade from A3 to A2 was attributed to Cleveland’s success in transitioning to an origination and destination airport since losing hub status in 2014. Moody’s noted passenger traffic has increased month over month for nearly two and a half years.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019/09/moodys-again-raising-its-bond-rating-for-cleveland-hopkins-international-airport.html

^This is good news.  And the other day Fitch Ratings assigned an A- rating to CLE's series 2019A-C airport revenue refunding bonds. Good news on both fronts.

Airlines to reap benefits from Cleveland Hopkins International Airport’s improved bond rating

 

"Lowering the cost of borrowing money for capital improvements (and refinancing existing debt) also lowers the tab for the airlines. Kennedy expects the airlines will begin to save about $2.6 million a year, beginning next year. ... In exchange, the airlines are expected to invest more at Hopkins with more flights and bigger planes."

 

Link: https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2019/09/airlines-to-reap-benefits-from-cleveland-hopkins-international-airports-improved-bond-rating.html

Can we please transfer ownership and management to the Cleveland Cuyahoga County Port Authority??

 

Cleveland Hopkins is second-worst medium-sized airport in North America, according to J.D. Power

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/09/cleveland-hopkins-is-second-worst-medium-sized-airport-in-north-america-according-to-jd-power.html

^The suburbs have been salivating for years to get their hands on the last big city of Cleveland asset. If you want to take something from Cleveland, take the schools and then we'll talk about the airport.

23 minutes ago, KJP said:

Can we please transfer ownership and management to the Cleveland Cuyahoga County Port Authority??

 

Cleveland Hopkins is second-worst medium-sized airport in North America, according to J.D. Power

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/09/cleveland-hopkins-is-second-worst-medium-sized-airport-in-north-america-according-to-jd-power.html

 

Cleveland's airport isn't good but it's certainly better than Hartford-Bradley.  Ugh, so many bad memories...

1 hour ago, Pugu said:

^The suburbs have been salivating for years to get their hands on the last big city of Cleveland asset. If you want to take something from Cleveland, take the schools and then we'll talk about the airport.

 

I don't know about what the suburbs are after (except perhaps the city's water department). But the City of Cleveland has mismanaged the airport for years. There's no creativity there and no marketing aggressiveness. The port authority, on the other hand, does a good job running the lake port and its development programs. It's also why I'm scared to death of the city of Cleveland pursuing development  of the downtown multimodal hub. I'd rather the port authority do that.

While I agree that the airport could be managed better, and that the Port would be a good candidate to do so, I think "2nd worst in its class" is a little harsh.  I have consistently decent experiences at CLE, and think the general "Woe is CLE" attitude in this region probably bleeds into these survey results.

17 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Can we please transfer ownership and management to the Cleveland Cuyahoga County Port Authority??

 

 

17 hours ago, KJP said:

18 hours ago, Pugu said:

^The suburbs have been salivating for years to get their hands on the last big city of Cleveland asset. If you want to take something from Cleveland, take the schools and then we'll talk about the airport.

 

Quote

I don't know about what the suburbs are after (except perhaps the city's water department). But the City of Cleveland has mismanaged the airport for years. There's no creativity there and no marketing aggressiveness. The port authority, on the other hand, does a good job running the lake port and its development programs. It's also why I'm scared to death of the city of Cleveland pursuing development  of the downtown multimodal hub. I'd rather the port authority do that.

 

I don't disagree with you that the current airport administration is less than competent--no service to Europe while smaller and Cle-competitor cities are getting it, ridiculous handling of ground transportation (making old people with luggage walk 1/2 mile to a taxi in the garage while taking away parking spaces), insane handling of passengers that need to go through CPB (having to then wait 1-2 hrs in line at no-pre-check available TSA screening) when there are other options (build a secure corridor or put passengers on buses after clearing customs which was the case a few years ago).  The solution? Get a better airport director. And if the mayor appoints only duds, get a new mayor. But don't give away the airport to another entity. The city has so few major assets left. The suburbs try to steamroll the city all the time and happily steal jobs from it. The airport (and water) are the last big items the city has in showing its weight. The suburbs were dying to control the Port as well. So, the port may be doing some good things, but that's no reason further hurt the city.  Remember the Board of the port has 9 members---6 of which are appointed by the Mayor and 3 by the county (which we can say are the suburbs here as they seem to have control of the county). The port only exists cause Cleveland exists. But the suburbs wanted more. So they said THEY should have 6 members on the board and the city should only have 3. That was a few years ago and luckily that never came to be. The greedy suburban nonsense was put to bed.  So, yes, we need much better leadership at the airport, but never at the price of giving the airport away.

Edited September 27, 20195 yr by Pugu

4 minutes ago, Pugu said:

Can we please transfer ownership and management to the Cleveland Cuyahoga County Port Authority??

 

 

 

 

I don't disagree with you that the current airport administration is less than competent--no service to Europe while smaller and Cle-competitor cities are getting it, ridiculous handling of ground transportation (making old people with luggage walk 1/2 mile to a taxi in the garage while taking away parking spaces), insane handling of passengers that need to go through CPB (having to then wait 1-2 hrs in line at no-pre-check available TSA screening) when there are other options (build a secure corridor or put passengers on buses after clearing customs which was the case a few years ago).  The solution? Get a better airport director. And if the mayor appoints only duds, get a new mayor. But don't give away the airport to another entity. The city has so few major assets left. The suburbs try to steamroll the city all the time and happily steal jobs from it. The airport (and water) are the last big items the city has in showing its weight. The suburbs were dying to control the Port as well. So, the port may be doing some good things, but that's no reason further hurt the city.  Remember the Board of the port has 9 members---6 of which are appointed by the Mayor and 3 by the county (which we can say are the suburbs here as they seem to have control of the county). The port only exists cause Cleveland exists. But the suburbs wanted more. So they said THEY should have 6 members on the board and the city should only have 3. That was a few years ago and luckily that never came to be. The greedy suburban nonsense was put to bed.  So, yes, we need much better leadership at the airport, but never at the price of giving the airport away.

Smaller metros have gotten service due to generous incentives and in the case of cities like Raleigh, Nashville and Austin actual demand with decent yields- from both sides of the Pond. Austin will add Amsterdam in spring 2020. Frequently we cite demand from X city to Europe but fail to take the demand from Europe to X City into account. Plus there is the Premium factor. Fares will be higher and if you are flying to Dusseldorf which will require a connection in any event, you'll probably choose the lower fare connecting in NY.

^I know how airlines and routings work. My point was that if other cities that are smaller than Cleveland can get service, then the largest US metro (4M) without service should be able to figure it out as well. That falls on the Airport Director who can't figure it out or doesn't care to. It may that he doesn't care. Remember, Kennedy tried to quit, but Jackson wouldn't let him--it would have looked bad for the election. So perhaps he's just sitting around collecting a paycheck. https://www.cleveland.com/naymik/2017/10/cleveland_hopkins_airport_chie.html

Edited September 27, 20195 yr by Pugu

13 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

Smaller metros have gotten service due to generous incentives and in the case of cities like Raleigh, Nashville and Austin actual demand with decent yields- from both sides of the Pond. Austin will add Amsterdam in spring 2020. Frequently we cite demand from X city to Europe but fail to take the demand from Europe to X City into account. Plus there is the Premium factor. Fares will be higher and if you are flying to Dusseldorf which will require a connection in any event, you'll probably choose the lower fare connecting in NY.

Can airlines not run direct one way, and not direct on the return? I have no idea how routings work.