5 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

So to summarize, as the City begins its long-range airport plan, the feeling is that unless the corporate community provides airline incentives, the plan should be based upon LCCs and a few legacy carriers utilizing mid-sized aircraft.

Well, no.  The city needs to plan for all contingencies. A resurgent city will drive an increase in air service. Boston isnt a hub but look at its air service. Austin, Texas same. Its not all about inventives, its about sustained committment and numbers

16 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

So to summarize, as the City begins its long-range airport plan, the feeling is that unless the corporate community provides airline incentives, the plan should be based upon LCCs and a few legacy carriers utilizing mid-sized aircraft.

 

I believe the eventual project should provide 1) room (but no construction) for an easy-to-add  CO-sized hub (250 flights) facility AND 2) a 10 to 12-gate WN-sized small hub (100 flights) facility.

 

#2 is, I believe, likely to happen somewhere in the mid-decade amd it wouldn't cost much to make it available even if it gets used for normal service. #1 is a stretch, but let's make it easy just in case.

55 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

Boston isnt a hub but look at its air service.  

Boston is now a hub for Delta and a focus city for JetBlue.   With Boston being on the east coast, they are a gateway city to Europe for several airlines.

17 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Boston is now a hub for Delta and a focus city for JetBlue.   With Boston being on the east coast, they are a gateway city to Europe for several airlines.

You are right.  A full fledged hub as of this past summer

1 hour ago, Terdolph said:

This makes me sad.  I always thought that as smaller planes (e.g. 737 Max) got greater range and payload capacity it would make Cleveland an attractive international gateway city, especially with ORD so crowded.

It could...provided, however, that you fill it (80% load factor on average and up) and fill the premium seats consistently. Just because the aircraft is smaller doesnt mean the economics are better.  And in winter, Ill bet those A321's will be stopping somewhere westbound for a drink jet fuel

On 11/25/2019 at 2:15 PM, skiwest said:

Boston is now a hub for Delta and a focus city for JetBlue.   With Boston being on the east coast, they are a gateway city to Europe for several airlines.

Boston CSA is also the sixth largest in the US with 8M people. Cleveland is 17th with 3.5M. I would suspect that with that much population, they also have the demand. Then again, there are smaller CSAs with international service, like Charlotte, Denver, Pittsburgh and Salt Lake City, but all, except PIT, have hubs.

Edited November 28, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

2 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Boston CSA is also the sixth largest in the US with 8M people. Cleveland is 17th with 3.5M. I would suspect that with that much population, they also have the demand. Then again, there are smaller CSAs with international service, like Charlotte, Denver, Pittsburgh and Salt Lake City, but all, except PIT, have hubs.

Remember:  its yields, yields, yields!  Austin is much smaller than Cleveland but they have a growing international service.  I beleive British Airways has been using a 747 on their Austin Route. Plus they have Lufthansa, Norwegian and soon, KLM.  And here's the kicker:  Austin is only a 30 min. flight from the Mega-Hub that is Houston. Lufthansa flies to Houston and is also in Star Alliance which is a Houston hub thanks to United  - and Lufthansa flies to both cities

Edited November 28, 20195 yr by B767PILOT

I still don't understand what it is that CLE must do to capture some of these international flights. As the City plans for the future of Hopkins, what should be included in their planning process?

50 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I still don't understand what it is that CLE must do to capture some of these international flights. As the City plans for the future of Hopkins, what should be included in their planning process?

International flights  - or any flights for that matter are a function of demand and the price willing to be paid by the consumer. Yes, the city can throw in subsidies and incentives but you cant rely upon these as they dont last forever. Cleveland has, i beleive somewhere around 250-300 people to europe daily. BUT what is the demand on the other side?  How many people in europe are coming to Cleveland. The demand has to work both ways, not just from Cleveland.  Also, those passengers from Cleveland are going to various destinations. There really isnt a significant amount going to any one city.  I think London comes in around 60 per day. Unless they are paying premium fares, that isnt enough to make it work. So, its easier for United, American, Delta to funnell these people through a hub rather than take a plane and put it on a route that is thin at best. You need O&D on both sides of the city pair in a decent number at a decent yield to make it work. And a smaller plane like the A321XLR is fine to close the gap - but remember, unless the yield is good, the revenue doesnt cover the flight. And if you are paying a premium fare and have ylto make a connection anyway, you will probably want to connect in a city wherr you can get on a 777 or similar for a much better experience. Finally, the business community needs to step in and commit the seats and revenue to justify the flight and thats an important key. Sorry if this rambles on but im on Amtrak Acela to Boston and typing on phone

Does the flight have to operate daily?  Could it be M-W-F or something similar? 

59 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Does the flight have to operate daily?  Could it be M-W-F or something similar? 

It could be but anything less than four and it becomes inconvenient and you defeat the purpose of a non-stop. 

On 11/28/2019 at 10:12 AM, Frmr CLEder said:

Boston CSA is also the sixth largest in the US with 8M people. Cleveland is 17th with 3.5M. I would suspect that with that much population, they also have the demand. Then again, there are smaller CSAs with international service, like Charlotte, Denver, Pittsburgh and Salt Lake City, but all, except PIT, have hubs.

You get how relatively large CLE/NEO is - which most residents here don't get - since there is the constant stream of "52nd largest city"...

 

Add to the "smaller but with service to Europe" list th we fsr-smaller CSAs:  Nashville, Austin, Raleigh, even Indianapolis...

1 hour ago, eyehrtfood said:

You get how relatively large CLE/NEO is - which most residents here don't get - since there is the constant stream of "52nd largest city"...

 

Add to the "smaller but with service to Europe" list th we fsr-smaller CSAs:  Nashville, Austin, Raleigh, even Indianapolis...

It's an indication of how few people in NEO actually live in the city proper; 3.2 M are suburbanites.

9 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It's an indication of how few people in NEO actually live in the city proper; 3.2 M are suburbanites.

 

So people living in Akron and Canton proper are suburbanites?

1 hour ago, eyehrtfood said:

You get how relatively large CLE/NEO is - which most residents here don't get - since there is the constant stream of "52nd largest city"...

 

Add to the "smaller but with service to Europe" list th we fsr-smaller CSAs:  Nashville, Austin, Raleigh, even Indianapolis...

Yes, but they have a business climate that requires european travel - BOTH WAYS.

Yeah, my opinion would be that population doesn’t necessarily equate to more European ticket sales in all cases.  I would imagine cleveland would be an outlier if you were to correlate population with European travelers on a regression analysis.  

Oh, pardon me. Two point nine million people are suburbanites.

Edited November 30, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

17 minutes ago, BelievelandD1 said:

Yeah, my opinion would be that population doesn’t necessarily equate to more European ticket sales in all cases.  I would imagine cleveland would be an outlier if you were to correlate population with European travelers on a regression analysis.  

Maybe not so much an outlier as in as much that there is probably demand on their side but its just as diffuse as it is on the side of Cleveland. Not enough demand from any one particular city but enough demand across the continent. A parallel case would be Hamburg. A large, wealthy, important city with almost no demand to the US

Every time I fly home, the descent over Lake Erie is always my favorite part of the flight.  Here's a pic from last Monday around sunset, just before we landed.

 

It was announced today that United inked a deal with Airbus for 50 A321XLR. Went on to say that they will be used from east coast hubs to europe and south america. Deliveries begin in 2024

26 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

It was announced today that United inked a deal with Airbus for 50 A321XLR. Went on to say that they will be used from east coast hubs to europe and south america. Deliveries begin in 2024

 

I do not like this trend of increasing the usage of single aisle aircraft for transatlantic flights.  Maybe it's ok to Iceland, but I can't be the only one that doesn't want to be stuck in an A320 or 737 for 8 hours...

^Think of it this way:  When CO had 757s from CLE to CDG and LHR, some people still preferred to fly to EWR and connect because from EWR, you got larger planes. Now, if East Coast-Europe is on a single aisle plane, a single aisle plane from CLE is no longer a comparative disadvantage.

10 hours ago, Pugu said:

^Think of it this way:  When CO had 757s from CLE to CDG and LHR, some people still preferred to fly to EWR and connect because from EWR, you got larger planes. Now, if East Coast-Europe is on a single aisle plane, a single aisle plane from CLE is no longer a comparative disadvantage.

 

This feels like one of those decisions made by a Harvard MBA based on some spreadsheet data which will backfire on United when customers revolt and continue to seek wide body aircraft (as I will).  

^Well, UA has made many, many bad decisions in the last 15 years or so---and got lucky with marrying up with Continental. Lets hope that this decision, at least, will at least benefit Cleveland in the process.

8 hours ago, Pugu said:

^Well, UA has made many, many bad decisions in the last 15 years or so---and got lucky with marrying up with Continental. Lets hope that this decision, at least, will at least benefit Cleveland in the process.

United will probably use these from their hubs to secondary cities in europe and South america  - not fom secondary american cities, unless the yields were high. They may even add frequencies with these from hubs. 

What type of aircraft did WOW and Icelandair fly to Reykjavik before they were discontinued?

I believe WOW was using Airbus A321 and Icelandair was using 737 max 8.

Edited December 9, 20195 yr by skiwest

^ CLE-FCO is 3,995 nm.

 

The 737 Max 7 max range is 3,850 nm, Max 8 and Max 9 are 3,550 nm, and Max 10 is 3300 nm.  But you must also account for season, airport elevation, and some other factors. But despite these, its still not possible given these numbers.

^Depends on which 737 Max and also some other factors--so its not just range and distance, weather, elevation, max takeoff weight (including fuel weight) also affect possibilities. The two parallel runways at Hopkins are 770-786 ft above sea level. Use the max range numbers above.  Here are the raw distances as a plane would fly given the curvature of the earth for various cities. Don't forget a safety margin for bad weather, wind, etc.

 

CLE-LHR  3,253 nm

CLE-LIS 3,249 nm

CLE-DUB 3,012 nm

CLE-SNN 2,934 nm

CLE-CDG 3,421 nm

CLE-MAD 3,428 nm

CLE-BCN 3,627 nm

CLE-AMS 3,408 nm

You could probably do Lisbon, Madrid, Amsterdam, or Paris with a Max 7, especially in the summer, and likely in winter (denser air) as well. Max 8 would be pushing it.

On 12/10/2019 at 8:58 PM, Pugu said:

^Depends on which 737 Max and also some other factors--so its not just range and distance, weather, elevation, max takeoff weight (including fuel weight) also affect possibilities. The two parallel runways at Hopkins are 770-786 ft above sea level. Use the max range numbers above.  Here are the raw distances as a plane would fly given the curvature of the earth for various cities. Don't forget a safety margin for bad weather, wind, etc.

 

CLE-LHR  3,253 nm

CLE-LIS 3,249 nm

CLE-DUB 3,012 nm

CLE-SNN 2,934 nm

CLE-CDG 3,421 nm

CLE-MAD 3,428 nm

CLE-BCN 3,627 nm

CLE-AMS 3,408 nm

And very importantly winds aloft. 150kts on the nose westbound in winter will take an enourmous toll on range making fuel stops necessary.  It was 6hrs westbound to SFO today

33 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

 It was 6hrs westbound to SFO today

 

Conversely, my wife flew in from Dallas this afternoon, and while tracking her inbound flight on Flight Aware the indicated GS was 651 mph!  ✈️

Edited December 13, 20195 yr by Cleburger

As stated above and in a major departure from tradition and an Airbus coup, United has just placed orders for 50 Airbus single-aisle 321XLRs, with a range of 4700 nm. They're intended to replace their fleet of aging Boeing 757s, which are currently used on intercontinental routes from EWR and IAD. 

 

They do have the range to fly from CLE to Western Europe, provided it makes sense economically.

Edited December 13, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

3 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

As stated above and in a major departure from tradition and an Airbus coup, United has just placed orders for 50 Airbus single-aisle 321XLRs, with a range of 4700 nm. They're intended to replace their fleet of aging Boeing 757s, which are currently used on intercontinental routes from EWR and IAD. 

 

They do have the range to fly from CLE to Western Europe, provided it makes sense economically.

United bought those A321's because they want to defer deliveries of the A350's until 2027 which means they'll probably never take delivery. The A321 order is to make that reasonable to Airbus

It's just surprising that United, being such a staunch Boeing customer, would make such a move, even if it is to postpone receipt of A350s. I guess the problem for Boeing is that they do not have a comparable aircraft.

Edited December 13, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

55 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It's just surprising that United, being such a staunch Boeing customer, would make such a move, even if it is to postpone receipt of A350s. I guess the problem for Boeing is that they do not have a comparable aircraft.

No. The A321 order compensates Airbus for the delay and most likely eventual cancellation of the A350 order

Edited December 13, 20195 yr by B767PILOT

48 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

Still, this could be very good news for CLE.  United already has and is paying for the concourse here, customs is already set up and ORD is overcrowded.  Why not use the overhead they are already paying for?  Besides, de-hubbing CLE was a mistake anyway.

 

I've always thought that CLE could have been approached by United the way CVG is approached by Delta.  Delta still uses CVG as a connector (we'll call it a hub-let) but greatly scaled back.  It can somewhat relieve pressure on their ATL operation (especially during IRROPS down there) and ensures they continue to capture a large portion of the O & D traffic from the greater Cincinnati area.  CLE will likely not be used as a large scale hub again, but United certainly has the gate capacity (without even using Concourse D) at CLE to add a modicum of flights to relieve ORD congestion.  One negative though is that most weather that would affect Chicago would also affect CLE as well.

7 minutes ago, plinth857 said:

 

One negative though is that most weather that would affect Chicago would also affect CLE as well.

Yes, but usually not until the next day.

43 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Yes, but usually not until the next day.

Quite the opposite. The weather can be similat but not really the same. 

When I worked as a ramp man for UAL (during the first UAL hub) I remember a number of times when we had to take flights from ORD that had to divert because of weather, but CLE was fine. We had planes parked everywhere

2 hours ago, plinth857 said:

 

I've always thought that CLE could have been approached by United the way CVG is approached by Delta....

 

The biggest difference---DL has great, smart management. United has the opposite.

13 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

The biggest difference---DL has great, smart management. United has the opposite.

United, at the time, was in cost cutting mode. Shrink your way to profitability. I beleive Smisek wanted Cleveland gone by any method possible. Once the hub was dismantled and whatever write-downs and accounting associated with that are completed, i dont know how easy it is to build that back-up. Certainly, the retention of a mothballed terminal building is a method to ensure no competition arrives in Cleveland in a substantial way. 

I despise UAL. They've screwed CLE over twice, and continue to do so if they're blocking competition from gates.

Edited December 14, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

7 hours ago, plinth857 said:

 

I've always thought that CLE could have been approached by United the way CVG is approached by Delta.  Delta still uses CVG as a connector (we'll call it a hub-let) but greatly scaled back.  It can somewhat relieve pressure on their ATL operation (especially during IRROPS down there) and ensures they continue to capture a large portion of the O & D traffic from the greater Cincinnati area.  CLE will likely not be used as a large scale hub again, but United certainly has the gate capacity (without even using Concourse D) at CLE to add a modicum of flights to relieve ORD congestion.  One negative though is that most weather that would affect Chicago would also affect CLE as well.

Well CVG still has a massive pilot base and Delta knows not to screw with the pilots. I am glad we haven't lost any additional service at CVG. If anything we have gained new service and larger AC. All while CVG continues to gain new service from other carriers. I feel for the UO members in CLE, such a big city and United cut service back so severely. Similar to how US destroyed Pittsburgh. Cincinnati escaped the ugly but it could always change.

Given Parker-Hannifin's aircraft industry business orientation and global facilities, I'm surprised they have not pressed for and supported direct flights to Europe and Mexico.

Swagelock, Lubrizol, OMNOVA, PolyOne, Avery Dennison, Steris, Eaton and a bunch of other NEO companies also have factories, offices and customers all over the world. I don’t know what the critical mass is for getting direct flights, but we’re not there at the moment. I’m also fairly certain that none of these companies are prepared to subsidize them either. 

So CLE is confined to multiple LCCs, a legacy airline that blocks an entire concourse and lots of hub connections. That's very sad.

1 hour ago, roman totale XVII said:

Swagelock, Lubrizol, OMNOVA, PolyOne, Avery Dennison, Steris, Eaton and a bunch of other NEO companies also have factories, offices and customers all over the world. I don’t know what the critical mass is for getting direct flights, but we’re not there at the moment. I’m also fairly certain that none of these companies are prepared to subsidize them either. 

The critical mass is a substantial number of premium seats at good yields to one particular destination. As ive written before, CLE has alot of Star loyalty. UA and LH codeshare. They are both Star. Four or Five times a week to FRA or MUC should be doable. But business must commit with revenue gurantees while route develops

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

So CLE is confined to multiple LCCs, a legacy airline that blocks an entire concourse and lots of hub connections. That's very sad.

Theres enough room for another legacy but UA will defend its turf. 

5 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

The critical mass is a substantial number of premium seats at good yields to one particular destination. As ive written before, CLE has alot of Star loyalty. UA and LH codeshare. They are both Star. Four or Five times a week to FRA or MUC should be doable. But business must commit with revenue gurantees while route develops

Premium meaning Business Class? I know for a fact that most, if not all, of those companies I’ve mentioned above don’t allow business class on European flights for anyone other than the very top management.