"I understand the sentiment, but I wouldn’t say Hopkins has any of the things you’ve listed.
 

I am not pushing for the City to build the Taj Mahal."

 

Agreed. Whether for the NEO community or its visitors, CLE represents the city's front door.

 

Unfortunately, with dated and vacated concourses, antiquated C&I and limited direct flights, it doesn't provide the best first impression and maybe the City, the County and the citizenry are ok with that.

Edited February 18, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

19 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

"I understand the sentiment, but I wouldn’t say Hopkins has any of the things you’ve listed.
 

I am not pushing for the City to build the Taj Mahal."

 

Agreed. Whether for the NEO community or its visitors, CLE represents the city's front door.

 

Unfortunately, with dated and vacated concourses, antiquated C&I and limited direct flights, it doesn't provide the best first impression and maybe the City, the County and the citizenry are ok with that.

 

I rarely have trouble finding direct flights to most of America when traveling out of Cleveland. I also get thru security in 20min or less 90% of the time. I don't care about anything else. I take the rapid, so neither parking nor rental cars are a big deal to me. I do recognize the current rental car situation isn't optimal.

 

Given the recent growth in passenger numbers and improvements on the J.D. Power customer service rankings, I'd say most travelers are in the same boat as I. The airport isn't as awful as you and a few others make it out to be.

Edited February 18, 20205 yr by Clefan98

2 hours ago, Hootenany said:

 

I understand this desire, but I can't reconcile it with the cost.  I travel a lot and all I want out of an airport is plentiful seating, plentiful power outlets, clean bathrooms, and easy transportation options.  Hopkins is not that bad in my opinion and spending billions to get a marginal increase in comfort and passenger experience just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Mostly agree. Hopkins is fine for a low-key second tier airport....but I'd like to see the cost-benefit of how investment could propel the economy for Northeast Ohio. 

 

Perhaps when the Sherwin Williams' issues are publicized that would give us all a better understanding of whether future expenditures are "reasonable." 

4 hours ago, Enginerd said:

I’m hoping the master plan mothballs existing everything and completely rebuilds the airport. After being in some of the newer airports in the US...it would be a tremendous shame to try and reuse anything here. 

 

3 hours ago, Hootenany said:

I understand this desire, but I can't reconcile it with the cost.  I travel a lot and all I want out of an airport is plentiful seating, plentiful power outlets, clean bathrooms, and easy transportation options.  Hopkins is not that bad in my opinion and spending billions to get a marginal increase in comfort and passenger experience just doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

Here's my wish list for the new Hopkins Master Plan, based on fundamentally keeping the existing terminal:

- Construct new, additional arrival / departure terminal (including new baggage claim) between C and D, at the south / far end.

- Continue also using existing arrival terminal - I think it is pretty nice since the renovation

- Gut renovation of existing baggage claim

- Full renovation / replacement of security, also add new security in new terminal section.

- Redo D terminal so that at least one side can handle 737 / A320 sized jets (my understanding is that it currently cannot).  Realistically it probably needs to be both sides, with the trend away from regional jets.

- Complete rebuild of Concourse B, it is a dump.  Adding a nice, large, perpendicular gate area hall at the end would be good, similar to what they have in MKE's Southwest concourse.

- Widen and renovate Concourse C.  I think the main path with the long skylight is nice. Imagine if the current seating areas (runway side) were replaced with a parallel path of moving walkways (like in DTW), and then new seating areas, restrooms, and restaurants were built where the jetbridges currently are.  (The side with Great Lakes and Symon's could probably stay as it is.)

- I never go in Concourse A, I assume it also needs a lot of work or a complete rebuild.  Most important thing here is brand new, proper, modern customs & immigration.

- Extend the garage / orange lot walkway all the way across the orange lot and over the highway to a new Amtrak / commuter rail station

- New airport hotel and new, additional parking garage in the current location of the orange lot, also connected to the terminal per the above walkway, per @KJP renderings which have been posted a few times.

- More passenger protected area on walkway through existing garage. (Like the passenger bridges along Boston Logan's main garage.)

- New American Express Centurian lounge (or similar) near the current eating area.

 

Advantages to keeping current terminal and location:

- Costs less, probably much less, than brand new terminal

- Existing parking garage is fine, no need to rebuild

- RTA connection. Obviously it is primarily used by airport workers now, but if RTA properly supports ToD at stations the ridership could dramatically improve.

- The current main restaurant area is also quite reasonable for an airport this size.

 

And long term, as @MyTwoSense also suggested, bury 480 and Brookpark north of the airport, extend the main runway over them to the northeast, and therefore make it easier to support long distance service. 

 

Edited February 18, 20205 yr by Boomerang_Brian
added security renovation

9 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

I rarely have trouble finding direct flights to most of America when traveling out of Cleveland. I also get thru security in 20min or less 90% of the time. I don't care about anything else. I take the rapid, so neither parking nor rental cars are a big deal to me.

The Rapid getting in and out of CLE is so great. 

 

 

Edited February 18, 20205 yr by surfohio

2 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

 

Here's my wish list, based on fundamentally keeping the existing terminal:

- Construct new, additional arrival / departure terminal (including new baggage claim) between C and D, at the south / far end.

- Continue also using existing arrival terminal - I think it is pretty nice since the renovation

- Gut renovation of existing baggage claim

- Redo D terminal so that at least one side can handle 737 / A320 sized jets (my understanding is that it currently cannot).  Realistically it probably needs to be both sides, with the trend away from regional jets.

- Complete rebuild of Concourse B, it is a dump.  Adding a nice, large, perpendicular gate area hall at the end would be good, similar to what they have in MKE's Southwest concourse.

- Widen and renovate Concourse C.  I think the main path with the long skylight is nice. Imagine if the current seating areas (runway side) were replaced with a parallel path of moving walkways (like in DTW), and then new seating areas, restrooms, and restaurants were built where the jetbridges currently are.  (The side with Great Lakes and Symon's could probably stay as it is.)

- I never go in Concourse A, I assume it also needs a lot of work or a complete rebuild.  Most important thing here is brand new, proper, modern customs & immigration.

- Extend the garage / orange lot walkway all the way across the orange lot and over the highway to a new Amtrak / commuter rail station

- New airport hotel and new, additional parking garage in the current location of the orange lot, also connected to the terminal per the above walkway, per @KJP renderings which have been posted a few times.

- More passenger protected area on walkway through existing garage. (Like the passenger bridges along Boston Logan's main garage.)

- New American Express Centurian lounge (or similar) near the current eating area.

 

Advantages to keeping current terminal and location:

- Costs less, probably much less, than brand new terminal

- Existing parking garage is fine, no need to rebuild

- RTA connection. Obviously it is primarily used by airport workers now, but if RTA properly supports ToD at stations the ridership could dramatically improve.

- The current main restaurant area is also quite reasonable for an airport this size.

 

And long term, as @MyTwoSense also suggested, bury 480 and Brookpark north of the airport, extend the main runway over them to the northeast, and therefore make it easier to support long distance service. 

 

The only thing I would to this is move a rental car facility into the ground-floor of the existing short-term garage.   They could still use off-site location for budget rental firms and support for the terminal location.   

4 minutes ago, surfohio said:

The Rapid out of CLE is so great. 

 

 

 

Not so funny story. My gf and I took the w65th rapid last Friday morning to catch a flight to NYC for the weekend. My sister (who lives on w117th about .5mi north of the rapid station) opted for an uber that never showed due to winter weather/traffic on 90. Well, long story short - she didn't get to enjoy NYC last weekend.

ALWAYS TAKE THE RAPID, KIDS!

Edited February 18, 20205 yr by Clefan98

2 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

 

Here's my wish list, based on fundamentally keeping the existing terminal:

- Construct new, additional arrival / departure terminal (including new baggage claim) between C and D, at the south / far end.

- Continue also using existing arrival terminal - I think it is pretty nice since the renovation

- Gut renovation of existing baggage claim

- Full renovation / replacement of security, also add new security in new terminal section.

- Redo D terminal so that at least one side can handle 737 / A320 sized jets (my understanding is that it currently cannot).  Realistically it probably needs to be both sides, with the trend away from regional jets.

- Complete rebuild of Concourse B, it is a dump.  Adding a nice, large, perpendicular gate area hall at the end would be good, similar to what they have in MKE's Southwest concourse.

- Widen and renovate Concourse C.  I think the main path with the long skylight is nice. Imagine if the current seating areas (runway side) were replaced with a parallel path of moving walkways (like in DTW), and then new seating areas, restrooms, and restaurants were built where the jetbridges currently are.  (The side with Great Lakes and Symon's could probably stay as it is.)

- I never go in Concourse A, I assume it also needs a lot of work or a complete rebuild.  Most important thing here is brand new, proper, modern customs & immigration.

- Extend the garage / orange lot walkway all the way across the orange lot and over the highway to a new Amtrak / commuter rail station

- New airport hotel and new, additional parking garage in the current location of the orange lot, also connected to the terminal per the above walkway, per @KJP renderings which have been posted a few times.

- More passenger protected area on walkway through existing garage. (Like the passenger bridges along Boston Logan's main garage.)

- New American Express Centurian lounge (or similar) near the current eating area.

 

Advantages to keeping current terminal and location:

- Costs less, probably much less, than brand new terminal

- Existing parking garage is fine, no need to rebuild

- RTA connection. Obviously it is primarily used by airport workers now, but if RTA properly supports ToD at stations the ridership could dramatically improve.

- The current main restaurant area is also quite reasonable for an airport this size.

 

And long term, as @MyTwoSense also suggested, bury 480 and Brookpark north of the airport, extend the main runway over them to the northeast, and therefore make it easier to support long distance service. 

 

This sounds like a reasonable renovation plan.  Expanding the terminal to the south might spread out the congestion on the upper and lower roadways a bit and maybe even allow the shuttles to return.  I assume Concourse D would be directly connected to the expanded terminal rather than only via the tunnel to/from Concourse C.  Burying I-480 and Brookpark Road sounds nice, but it would be a costly undertaking which may not be justifiable for the limited amount of long distance service we can realistically expect at CLE.      

Edited February 18, 20205 yr by skiwest

2 hours ago, surfohio said:

The Rapid getting in and out of CLE is so great. 

 

 

I absolutely must agree.This is CLE's single greatest asset.

 

What is being done to market this asset? 

 

There are many busier and much larger airports that would love to have such an asset; some are spending billions of dollars to develop rail service. CLE has had it for decades.

 

How is CLE getting the most out of its Rapid asset?

Edited February 18, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

4 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I absolutely must agree.This is CLE's single greatest asset.

 

Just as a point of reference, last night it cost me $20 to take Lyft home from SAN airport - a 6 mile trip. Public transportation would've cost $6 and would've taken ONE HOUR AND FORTY-FIVE MINUTES. 

 

 

 

 

"I rarely have trouble finding direct flights to most of America when traveling out of Cleveland."

- Except for the airline hubs, including the 25 largest cities, you cannot get to most of America non-stop from Cleveland.

 

2 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

I do recognize the current rental car situation isn't optimal.

- Off-site rental cars are a nuisance, but appear to be pretty much the norm these days.

 

"improvements on the J.D. Power customer service rankings,"

- Any improvement is considerable when you're next to last. The only airport that was worse was LGA; that's not a notable position to be in.

10 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

 Off-site rental cars are a nuisance, but appear to be pretty much the norm these days.

 

Not necessarily in airports the size of CLE.   And even in bigger airports, the transit time and connection is more direct than the roundabout trip on crap roads that the CLE buses have to make.  

 

To make the airport more competitive, there should be a state of the art rental car facility in the bottom floor(s) of the short term garage.   A new long term garage on the orange lot should be built for additional capacity for long/short term.  

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

 

"I rarely have trouble finding direct flights to most of America when traveling out of Cleveland."

- Except for the airline hubs, including the 25 largest cities, you cannot get to most of America non-stop from Cleveland.

 

- Off-site rental cars are a nuisance, but appear to be pretty much the norm these days.

 

"improvements on the J.D. Power customer service rankings,"

- Any improvement is considerable when you're next to last. The only airport that was worse was LGA; that's not a notable position to be in.

 

Let it go, boomer. I stand by my original comments about Hopkins. It's a fine airport that's getting better each year. The numbers prove it.

1 hour ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Let it go, boomer. I stand by my original comments about Hopkins. It's a fine airport that's getting better each year. The numbers prove it.

No problem Milli!

 

If you guys are satisfied with mediocrity at best, so be it!

 

According to Ted Carter: local hurdles included "inferior air service to key markets," taxes and talent.

Edited February 18, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

1 hour ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Let it go, boomer. I stand by my original comments about Hopkins. It's a fine airport that's getting better each year. The numbers prove it.

The question though is, is it being leveraged to the max to increase not just the ease of travel, but also regional economic development? 

 

If you look at it like most look at the Greyhound Station then yes. But if you look at it and think about all the economic advantages having a better facility could bring, if done smartly, then no.

Finally someone with some forethought recognizes the lost opportunities.

45 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Finally someone with some forethought recognizes the lost opportunities.

What lost opportunities are you referring to? 
 

It hasn't hindered Cleveland's recent ability to attract major national events, jobs and visitors to the city and region. 

Just now, Clefan98 said:

What lost opportunities are you referring to? 
 

It hasn't hindered Cleveland's recent ability to attract major national events, jobs and visitors to the city and region. 

The opportunities refer to those lost over the last 40 years, or whenever Cleveland last had an airport competitive with the biggest business markets in the nation.

6 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

The opportunities refer to those lost over the last 40 years, or whenever Cleveland last had an airport competitive with the biggest business markets in the nation.

Nice non answer

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Clefan98

The Cleveland-Akron-Canton media market is/was the 15th largest in the country. Maybe it's 17th now.

 

Please show me in this list of airports where Cleveland ranks. Feel free to add in CAK to bump up the numbers, too......

 

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_capacity/passenger_allcargo_stats/passenger/media/cy18-commercial-service-enplanements.pdf

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

No problem Milli!

 

If you guys are satisfied with mediocrity at best, so be it!

 

According to Ted Carter: local hurdles included "inferior air service to key markets," taxes and talent.

It sounds like the definition of mediocrity is subjective.  To you, mediocrity seems to be dated facilities and caring what people think about CLE when they get here.

 

 

to me, mediocrity is long lines, crappy and overwhelmed customer service and having to carve out an additional hour of my day with my family to get to my gate. And all the delays and runway lines

 

major hubs have advantages but I can leave shaker hts 75 minutes before wheels up and not waste a minute of my day

14 minutes ago, KJP said:

The Cleveland-Akron-Canton media market is/was the 15th largest in the country. Maybe it's 17th now.

 

Please show me in this list of airports where Cleveland ranks. Feel free to add in CAK to bump up the numbers, too......

 

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_capacity/passenger_allcargo_stats/passenger/media/cy18-commercial-service-enplanements.pdf

#44, in case you don’t want to click that link. Adding in CAK’s 450k would only move it up one spot. 
 

CLE DESPERATELY needs improvement. I wouldn’t call it a total disaster, but even claiming “ok” or “fine” is a big stretch. 

I was recently at Greensboro/ Spartanburg airport in SC. A true regional airport that does about 20% the traffic of CLE. I was instantly impressed with its light, airy, modern design and wished Hopkins was half as good. If that isn’t damning, I don’t know what it. 

22 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

I was recently at Greensboro/ Spartanburg airport in SC. A true regional airport that does about 20% the traffic of CLE. I was instantly impressed with its light, airy, modern design and wished Hopkins was half as good. If that isn’t damning, I don’t know what it. 

Sounds nice and also waste of money. The airport isn't going to be the deciding factor of businesses moving here, tourists visiting here or convention/business people visiting here. And it certainly isn't a factor in what draws non-stop flights. The only thing that does is demand.

 

If there were to be major upgrades to hopkins, I swear Cuyahoga County better not be footing the bill. It already does with the sin tax so everyone in Lake County, Geauga County, Summit County, Medina County, Lorain County can enjoy their events downtown. The whole MSA uses Hopkins, yet Cuyahoga would get shafted with the bill considering this region can stand the thought of regional cooperation. 

1 hour ago, Clefan98 said:

Nice non answer

All I'm saying is that yes passenger traffic is increasing, but that is probably a factor of the low cost airlines moving in as well as what seems to be a growing local economy. That should be celebrated along with the ease of access and boarding flights at the airport.

 

While we are celebrating and thinking towards what the next iteration of Hopkins will be let's look at it with some forethought so we can leverage this asset to work for our region for more than just when we are flying off to vacations.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Mov2Ohio

1 minute ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

The whole MSA uses Hopkins, yet Cuyahoga would get shafted with the bill considering this region can stand the thought of regional cooperation. 

 

There are taxes and fees collected from airport users.  In this way, anyone traveling from CLE contributes.  

4 hours ago, KJP said:

The Cleveland-Akron-Canton media market is/was the 15th largest in the country. Maybe it's 17th now.

 

Please show me in this list of airports where Cleveland ranks. Feel free to add in CAK to bump up the numbers, too......

 

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_capacity/passenger_allcargo_stats/passenger/media/cy18-commercial-service-enplanements.pdf

I wouldn't waste my time KJP.

 

Clearly some people don't understand the importance of using high-quality transportation as a regional economic driver.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

10 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I wouldn't waste my time KJP.

 

Clearly some people don't understand the importance of using high-quality transportation as a regional economic driver.

 

 

The rankings don't tell the whole story either. Metros like NYC, Chicago,  Washington and Houston have multiple airports ranked ahead of us due to shear size alone. It's not really something that can be blamed on the airport itself, but nice try. 
 

I'm still waiting to learn about some specific opportunities Cleveland lost directly due to Hopkins. 

Where does Greater Cleveland rank in terms of Fortune 500 corporate headquarters today vs 40 or 50 years ago?

 

"I'm still waiting to learn about some specific opportunities Cleveland lost directly due to Hopkins."

 

Amazon HQ2 for one. You probably weren't even born when BP vacated 200 PS for Chicago.

 

Seattle vs NYC vs Virginia vs Cleveland.  Unfortunately as stated above, having inferior air service makes corporate relocation a non-starter; Cleveland isn't even a point of discussion.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

Are we even in the same universe?

 

Perception is reality. What corporations perceive to be "inferior air service to key markets" results in a lack of interest in locating or even having satellite offices located in a city, whether you, Clefan98, are personally comfortable with your multi-stop flights, shuttered and/or dark concourses, or not.

 

Corporate relocations and expansions bring jobs, generate income tax revenue, sales tax revenue, spinoff jobs and help to drive additional economic growth; something the City desperately needs.

 

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

And it started when Diamond Shamrock left Cleveland for Dallas which had just opened a brand-new airport, DFW.

 

DFW was a big factor in the incredible growth of the Metroplex as was ATL's in the stunning growth of Atlanta since the 1970s. Cleveland went the opposite direction. 

Hey, look, we’re not the only ones thinking about this.  This article is actually quite detailed and informative, and is good news towards future investments in airport. One note before anyone loses their mind about how high the current enplanement fees paid by the airline are - the difference between where the fees are and where they should be is almost entirely driven by the higher fees United pays towards the Concourse D debt. 

“Airline fees, debt decrease at Cleveland Hopkins as airport prepares for possible new terminal”

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020/02/airline-fees-debt-decrease-at-cleveland-hopkins-as-airport-prepares-for-possible-new-terminal.html

 

“The improving financial picture is a necessary precursor to what’s to come: The possible construction of a new terminal in several years, the cost of which will be shouldered in large part by the airlines.”

8 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Are we even in the same universe?

 

Perception is reality. What corporations perceive to be "inferior air service to key markets" results in a lack of interest in locating or even having satellite offices located in a city, whether you, Clefan98, are personally comfortable with your multi-stop flights, shuttered and/or dark concourses, or not.

 

Corporate relocations and expansions bring jobs, generate income tax revenue, sales tax revenue, spinoff jobs and help to drive additional economic growth; something the City desperately needs.

 

 

While I don't think an airport is an end all be all of economic development and retaining talent - just look at the way CLT grew with that city, which is happening in a similar way with Nashville right now (though Nashville brings a tourist element that probably makes it an outlier)

8 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

 

"I'm still waiting to learn about some specific opportunities Cleveland lost directly due to Hopkins."

 

Amazon HQ2 for one. You probably weren't even born when BP vacated 200 PS for Chicago.

 

Seattle vs NYC vs Virginia vs Cleveland.  Unfortunately as stated above, having inferior air service makes corporate relocation a non-starter; Cleveland isn't even a point of discussion.

 

LOL Amazon was never coming here. You're out in left field.

18 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

LOL Amazon was never coming here. You're out in left field.

Correct.

 

I kinda think Amazon needs superior access to its key markets.

8 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Are we even in the same universe?

 

Perception is reality. What corporations perceive to be "inferior air service to key markets" results in a lack of interest in locating or even having satellite offices located in a city, whether you, Clefan98, are personally comfortable with your multi-stop flights, shuttered and/or dark concourses, or not.

 

Corporate relocations and expansions bring jobs, generate income tax revenue, sales tax revenue, spinoff jobs and help to drive additional economic growth; something the City desperately needs.

 

 

Have you seen any of the job's reports lately? Cleveland has been holding its own (even beating some national metrics), so obviously the airport can't be too much of deterrent. Could it better? Sure. But you've shown zero proof to back up any of your claims. You're excellent at the buzz words game though!

 

I'll continue to wait on the specific opportunities we've lost - Amazon was a weak attempt.

 

32 minutes ago, KJP said:

And it started when Diamond Shamrock left Cleveland for Dallas which had just opened a brand-new airport, DFW.

 

DFW was a big factor in the incredible growth of the Metroplex as was ATL's in the stunning growth of Atlanta since the 1970s. Cleveland went the opposite direction. 

 

So Diamond left solely because of our airport, or was it one of many factors? Geographically speaking, Atlanta is the king of the south. It's the only major metro w/in hundreds of miles of itself. The Cleveland metro competes in air travel with Akron, Columbus, Detroit and Pittsburgh.

Air travel isn't as important to an area like Cleveland who is more connected by water, rail and highways than most cities/regions.

 

Geography and location plays a role:

 

Airport development is negatively correlated with ground transportation development. The negative correlation with ground transportation reflects the substitutability between ground transportation options, such as railroads and highways, and air transportation. The less developed regions of China are the west and northeast regions. Yao and Yang’s results suggest an incentive to construct airports and promote air travel in these less-developed areas because substitutable forms of travel are costly to implement there due to the presence of vast, mountainous terrain (Yao and Yang, 2008/07).

 

https://sites.duke.edu/urbaneconomics/?p=1248

 

Think.

 

22 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Ok, and rural China has what to do with Cleveland and economic development except that you can't get to China without multiple days of travel and numerous connections?

2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Correct.

 

I kinda think Amazon needs superior access to its key markets.

 

They needed a lot of things. Columbus made Amazon's top 20 list while Cleveland did not. Columbus' airport offers even less nonstops than we do.

 

Also, do you think airlines may have added service if Cleveland won the bid? My guess is yes.

 

Airports don't create and expand markets, they are byproduct of them.

It's OK to criticize the city. It doesn't mean you don't still love it. Often times, it means quite the opposite.

1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Ok, and rural China has what to do with Cleveland and economic development except that you can't get to China without multiple days of travel and numerous connections?

 

It helps to read the whole thing:

"While the results of this research are only directly applicable to the Chinese economy, its methods and general findings can be transformed and applied to other urban economies".

Just now, Clefan98 said:

 

Airports don't create and expand markets, they are byproduct of them.

 

Not true. Commerce follows transportation infrastructure investments.

This might be getting too far out in the weeds, but there's an argument to be made that airports could be nearly obsolete by 2040, and that's something that should be considered in funding. 

Just now, KJP said:

It's OK to criticize the city. It doesn't mean you don't still love it. Often times, it means quite the opposite.

 

Just stating my opinion, which is allowed on this site. I'm also very realistic about Cleveland's size and outside factors we're dealing against. Sometimes the easiest thing is to blame the city without thinking. Boomers remember Cleveland for what it once was, not what it is.

How about thinking about Cleveland for what it could be?

19 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Not true. Commerce follows transportation infrastructure investments.

 

Roads, bridges, rails, ports yes. I'm not convinced about airports though. No one has posted any facts on what Cleveland has lost out on due to Hopkins.

 

Columbus is booming w/out superior air travel.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Clefan98

1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

How about thinking about Cleveland for what it could be?

 

I do this all the time. It rarely involves the airport.

It should. 

3 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

This might be getting too far out in the weeds, but there's an argument to be made that airports could be nearly obsolete by 2040, and that's something that should be considered in funding. 

 

Exactly. But let's waste billions of dollars on something when we have more important issues to fund.

2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It should. 

 

Nah, I like to focus my time and energy on real matters and issues.