7 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Roads, bridges, rails, ports yes. I'm not convinced about Airports though. No one has posted any facts on what Cleveland has lost out on due to Hopkins.

 

Columbus is booming w/out superior air travel.

 

Yes, some cities can make things work without all the ingredients present.

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Yes, some cities can make things work without all the ingredients present.

 

So can Cleveland. We've managed to stay a world-class city while having an average airport. We're on the verge of growth for the first time in 6 decades. If the economy continues to improve/grow, airlines will notice and add more flights. There's no magic wand here, fellas.

8 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

So can Cleveland. We've managed to stay a world-class city while having an average airport. We're on the verge of growth for the first time in 6 decades. If the economy continues to improve/grow, airlines will notice and add more flights. There's no magic wand here, fellas.

 

I think focusing on Hopkins as a major driver is outdated thinking... 

 

I think NEO's energy would be better spent ensuring us as a destination for high speed rail, be it the hyperloop or enhanced Amtrak, along with allowing Greater Cleveland to be a beta center for driverless vehicles. 

You may be correct. It may be too late for CLE and BKL to be anything more than what they are.  That train may have already left the station.

29 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

So can Cleveland. We've managed to stay a world-class city while having an average airport. We're on the verge of growth for the first time in 6 decades. If the economy continues to improve/grow, airlines will notice and add more flights. There's no magic wand here, fellas.

 

No one says there is a magic wand. But the corporate community demands quality air service and the city needs to do a better job of responding to it and even enticing greater access.

 

And how can any city be world-class when it's been without growth for six decades? There is only one world-class city in the Midwest and it isn't in Ohio.

 

18 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I think focusing on Hopkins as a major driver is outdated thinking... 

 

I think NEO's energy would be better spent ensuring us as a destination for high speed rail, be it the hyperloop or enhanced Amtrak, along with allowing Greater Cleveland to be a beta center for driverless vehicles. 

 

As everyone knows, I'm as big of an advocate of passenger rail development as anyone. But Columbus achieved its growth without having any passenger rail service for more than four decades. It's the largest city in the world without any form of passenger rail (high-speed rail, Amtrak, light-rail, etc). So of course there's no magic bullet. To build the kind of city I want to live in, get decent trains. Get decent transit (another area where all Ohio cities fail). Get a modern, accessible airport with lots of direct, affordable flights to key destinations. Get stable economic ingredients like a big university, a huge medical center, a center of state government, a federal government node, etc. Get revenue sharing among a geographically broad governance structure (either a physically huge municipality or a form of regional governance) to address blight with revenues from growth areas. Have a simple, streamlined governance structure that isn't staffed through patronage. Have quality and accessible educational/job training programs at all levels. These are a few of my favorite things....

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by KJP

I think we all want what is best for Cleveland and the region.

The question is how to get there. 1. With 30+% poverty, economic growth and job creation that provides living wages is paramount.

2.  Does the existing population have the skills to fit today's living wage jobs. If not, what educational resources are available to assist in that process?

3.  Much of the city's housing stock has been bulldozed or needs redevelopment, which requires financial resources (banks, government, private). Investment will not occur without an anticipated ROI.

4. Unfortunately, there are and have been roadblocks.

5. KJP has summarized his vision; the initial requirement for developing a roadmap on how to get there.

6. One of the challenges has been consistent political leadership that has articulated a vision to move the region forward.

7. There are a number of components that contribute to a corporation's decision to relocate. Quality air transportation is one of them.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

Just now, KJP said:

 

No one says there is a magic wand. But the corporate community demands quality air service and the city needs to do a better job of responding to it and even enticing greater access.

 

And how can any city be world-class when it's been without growth for six decades? There is only one world-class city in the Midwest and it isn't in Ohio.

 

 

As everyone knows, I'm as big of an advocate of passenger rail development as anyone. But Columbus achieved its growth without having any passenger rail service for more than four decades. It's the largest city in the world without any form of passenger rail (high-speed rail, Amtrak, light-rail, etc). So of course there's no magic bullet. To build the kind of city I want to live in, get decent trains. Get decent transit (another area where all Ohio cities fail). Get a modern, accessible airport with lots of direct, affordable flights to key destinations. Get stable economic ingredients like a big university, a huge medical center, a center of state government, a federal government node, etc. Get revenue sharing among a geographically broad governance structure (either a physically huge municipality or a form of regional governance) to address blight with revenues from growth areas. Have a simple, streamlined governance structure. Have quality and accessible educational/job training programs at all levels. These are a few of my favorite things....

 

Population size doesn't make world-class cities. Cleveland has world-class assets and you know it. 

 

I would argue Cleveland does have an accessible airport with a decent amount of direct affordable flights to key destinations - and more are on the way.

 

Hopkins is in need of international service and a few more direct flights to key markets, but we're not that far off from what other metros our size offers. In terms of air service, we're better off than most of Midwestern counterparts outside of Detroit and Chicago - they're 2x and 3x our size though.

 

Here's a list of nonstops out of Cleveland. Honest question: outside of international service, what key US markets are we missing?

https://www.clevelandairport.com/flight-information/non-stop-cities

I'll start with Seattle (currently seasonal) KC and San Diego. 

 

For those expecting to compete with major markets and tourist destinations, you're going to be disappointed for the rest of your life. I accept the fact that Cleveland is a Gamma+ city and our airport reflects that.

Why not aspire to become a Beta city?

4 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I think we all want what is best for Cleveland and the region.

The question is how to get there. 1. With 30+% poverty, economic growth and job creation that provides living wages is paramount.

2.  Does the existing population have the skills to fit today's living wage jobs. If not, what educational resources are available to assist in that process?

3.  Much of the city's housing stock has been bulldozed or needs redevelopment, which requires financial resources (banks, government, private). Investment will not occur without an anticipated ROI.

4. KJP has summarized his vision; the initial requirement for developing a roadmap on how to get there.

5. One of the challenges has been consistent political leadership that has articulated a vision to move the region forward.

5. There are a number of components that contribute to a corporation's decision to relocate. Quality air transportation is one of them.

 

Focus on #2 and #3 and the rest will work itself out. As the city demographics change (and they are) Cleveland will naturally begin electing better leadership. I know the next mayor of Cleveland is going to be light years more effective than the current. That will take care of #4 & #5a. Still not completely sold on #5b, but since the rest of your list is so solid, I'm going to cave in and agree with you.

And the 30+% living in poverty?

 

How does that work itself out? They die in the streets?

Move to other locations? How do they get there, fly? Lol

1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Why not aspire to become a Beta city?

 

That would be great. If we do, the airport will reflect that growth, organically.

Somehow, the vast majority of European and Asian major cities have high-speed rail and modern efficient airports. Not quite sure why Cleveland has to abandon one for the other.

 

I'm not saying you need to spend billions but the terminal facilities for both passengers and employees are dated. The customs facility is out of 1964. There's stuff to fix beyond the cosmetic which can't hurt the local economic engine.

 

Just now, Clefan98 said:

 

That would be great. If we do, the airport will reflect that growth, organically.

How do you become a Beta City? What are the requirements? What components will get you there? Denver may be a good example.

Just now, Frmr CLEder said:

And the 30+% living in poverty?

 

How does that work itself out? They die in the streets?

Move to other locations? How do they get there, fly? Lol

 

#2 and #3 would help the poverty rate.

2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

How do you become a Beta City? What are the requirements? What components will get you there? Denver may be a good example.

 

Check this:

https://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/world2018t.html

I know which cities are alpha, beta, gamma, their derivatives and self-sufficient. That's why I said refer to DEN, or even MSP or PHL, beta cities. Besides having more population, what assets do they have that CLE lacks and how did they get there?

 

The question was, if you aspire to become, at least, a Beta city, what does Cleveland need to do to get there? What still needs to be done?

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

1 hour ago, KJP said:

It's OK to criticize the city. It doesn't mean you don't still love it. Often times, it means quite the opposite.

 

Was it the city's fault that United bought Continental then decided to de hub Hopkins? I don't think so.

 

Hopkins has fared much better and recovered quicker than virtually all airports who lost their hub status. It's also OK to give credit when credit is due.

Hopkins growth is mostly driven by the consolidation of low cost carriers moving from Akron-Canton to Hopkins. Most other de-hubbed cities didn't have this dynamic.

 

It's a limited growth trajectory which will be nearing an end in the next year or two. City leaders need to start looking at new avenues for growth.

Excluded Non-Stop Major Cities/Markets:

All are major markets, some are larger cities/regions:

 

Cincinnati, OH

Pittsburgh, PA

Harrisburg, PA

Indianapolis, IN

Islip, NY

Kansas City, MO

Buffalo, NY

Portland, OR

Sacramento, CA

Oakland, CA

Fresno, CA

San Jose, CA

Memphis, TN

Des Moines, IA

Oklahoma City, OK

Orange County, CA

Ontario, CA

Birmingham, AL

San Antonio, TX

Honolulu, HI (10 hours)

 

 

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

Except that's not entirely true:

 

American Airlines is adding flights on two routes to Cleveland that United Airlines is cutting this spring.

The Oneworld alliance carrier will add a fourth daily flight between Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) and Washington Reagan National (DCA) on June 4, the Cleveland airport unveiled Friday.

The same day, American will shift two of its three existing Washington National flights, as well as its four daily New York LaGuardia (LGA) flights to either Bombardier CRJ700 or Embraer E175 jets — both have first class and economy cabins — from smaller all-economy Embraer ERJ-140s.

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/american-airlines-moves-to-fill-united-gap-in-cleveland/

 

And:

 

Guerin adds that there will be no decrease in the overall number of seats United offers between Cleveland and Washington/New York. "In fact, we expect to increase the total number of premium seats in 2020 as a result of these changes," he wrote. United plans to use their mainline aircraft instead of regional aircraft for flights from Cleveland to Chicago O'Hare, Newark and Washington Dulles International, resulting in slight overall seat growth but additional premium seats year-over-year. 

United also intends to add to their current schedule of nonstop flights from CLE to Florida this spring, with new weekend non-stop flights to TPA (Tampa), FLL (Ft. Lauderdale) and RSW (Ft. Myers).

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/united-airlines-to-discontinue-direct-flights-from-cle-to-laguardia-reagan-this-spring/95-e8dcb2df-3d6e-4bd1-933f-a236666c2061

29 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Was it the city's fault that United bought Continental then decided to de hub Hopkins? I don't think so.

 

Hopkins has fared much better and recovered quicker than virtually all airports who lost their hub status. It's also OK to give credit when credit is due.

Where are you suggesting that credit should be given? To the City of Cleveland or UAL?

1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Where are you suggesting that credit should be given? To the City of Cleveland or UAL?

 

To the city for rebounding so quickly, unlike most airports after a de hub.

I have the same feelings as AmrapinVA.

 

The discount airlines jumped from CAK, to fill the UAL void/gates with some legacy infill. My concern is that CLE may be taken over by discount carriers only, with mostly vacation destinations.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

5 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I have the same feelings as AmrapinVA.

 

The discount airlines jumped from CAK, to fill the UAL void/gates with some legacy infill. My concern is that CLE may be taken over by discount carriers only, with mostly vacation destinations.

 

Having discount airliners and legacy airliners isn't a binary choice. We can and will have both. I just posted two very recent articles about legacy airlines EXPANDING service in CLE.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Clefan98

It's predominantly increased capacity to existing destinations/markets, not service to new destinations/markets.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

American also recently abandoned Cleveland-Kennedy plans so I'm not sure there's a net increase of seats for American at Cleveland. United is basically down to hubs and Florida. Will Florida be around once the Concourse D lease is up? I do wonder.

 

There is room for Spirit and Frontier growth but Cleveland is not Orlando and at some point all the vacation destinations will be covered. Then what? Is the city asking these questions? Not sure.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by AmrapinVA

5 minutes ago, AmrapinVA said:

American also recently abandoned Cleveland-Kennedy plans so I'm not sure there's a net increase of seats for American at Cleveland. United is basically down to hubs and Florida. Will Florida be around once the Concourse D lease is up? I do wonder.

 

There is room for Spirit and Frontier growth but Cleveland is not Orlando, at some point all the vacation destinations will be covered. Then what? Is the city asking this questions? Not sure.

 

American also increased service to LGA. There is an overall net increase in seats.

 

You're correct about United. It's not a Cleveland issue though.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Clefan98

18 minutes ago, AmrapinVA said:

American also recently abandoned Cleveland-Kennedy plans so I'm not sure there's a net increase of seats for American at Cleveland. United is basically down to hubs and Florida. Will Florida be around once the Concourse D lease is up? I do wonder.

 

There is room for Spirit and Frontier growth but Cleveland is not Orlando and at some point all the vacation destinations will be covered. Then what? Is the city asking this questions? Not sure.

This is unfortunate because JFK is a key American gateway to Europe and Central/South America.

 

If nothing else, one advantage of CLE's location has been that it's a short hop to ORD, JFK, EWR, DTW or MSP for one-stop international flights.

 

Eliminating JFK is a big loss.

 

As for UAL, who cares?

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

Just now, Clefan98 said:

 

American also increased service to LGA. There is an overall net increase in seats.

You can't fly overseas from LGA.

7 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It's predominantly increased capacity to existing destinations, not service to new destinations.

 

There's not many new destinations to add domestically.

How do Clevelanders today get from CLE to CVG?

Drive 6 1/2 hours, or connect through DTW or ORD.

 

That's crazy!

The American exec quote says "premium seats" which makes sense as most of the flights to Kennedy and LaGuardia were small regional jets before United the Queens market. Now LaGuardia is on an a larger American aircraft. 

 

Overall seat growth though, not sure.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by AmrapinVA

2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

You can't fly overseas from LGA.

 

That's fine, we have access to airports that do.

2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

How do Clevelanders today get from CLE to CVG?

Drive 6 1/2 hours, or connect through DTW or ORD.

 

That's crazy!

 

It's a 40min flight from Burke to Lunken without the hassle of going thru security. I use this about 2-3x a month. It's fantastic.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Clefan98

Another non-legacy carrier that has moved in to fill the legacy carrier void. The good news is that it represents more volume at BKL, which it needs.

3 minutes ago, AmrapinVA said:

The American exec quote says "premium seats" which makes sense as most of the flights to Kennedy and LaGuardia were small regional jets before United left. Now LaGuardia is on an a larger aircraft. 

 

Overall seat growth though, not sure.

 

Larger Aircraft, More Seats To Hubs

 

The news is not all bad for Cleveland residents, though. United still serves nearby Newark and Washington Dulles airports and will upguage aircraft in those markets to compensate for the service loss to DCA and LGA. The net result will be more premium seats out of Cleveland.

Overall, United grew 3.6% in Cleveland in 2019 and expects further growth in 2020.

 

https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2020/01/21/united-cleveland-cuts/

Domestic Adds:

 

Key business markets not served daily and year-round by Hopkins: Seattle, Portland, San Diego, San Jose and Kansas City. Austin?

 

Florida is covered.

 

There's work to be done.

1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Another non-legacy carrier that has moved in to fill the legacy carrier void. The good news is that it represents more volume at BKL, which it needs.

 

This non-legacy beats the crap out of any legacy service we once had to CIN.

If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten.

2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten.

 

Great quote, but little of that is applicable to 21st century airport metrics. There's so many factors involved, a simple saying won't fix it.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Clefan98

Just now, Clefan98 said:

 

Great quote, but little of that is applicable to 21st century airport metrics. There's so many factors involved, a simple saying won't fix it.

No. You simply rely upon the status quo of "inferior service to key markets."

I'm in the camp that thinks Hopkins works pretty well as is.  I don't travel as often as I once did for work, but I think the convenience of CLE (proximity to downtown, transit options, ease of security, distance to gates) is very strong compared to most airports around the country.  I think there's even a better mix of food options than you find at many larger airports. 

 

As for destinations, when you look at our peer markets, the difference in air service is pretty limited, and in many cases CLE has better domestic service.  STL probably has the best mix of destinations in the peer set, but that is a SW hub.  

 

While it's true that airlines finance renovations, that is all passed along to consumers in the form of higher fares. I'd prefer to see CLE focus on keeping fares low and expand destinations as much as possible through low gate fees and other incentives.  I don't think adding a huge amount to the debt load for a shiny new terminal is going to convince airlines to add service... they are pretty sophisticated at assessing demand.  

17 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

No. You simply rely upon the status quo of "inferior service to key markets."

 

Because there's so many outside factors. We have inferior service because of inferior demand and our close location to competitive markets. If you're not a hub, you don't matter. This is how the airline industry in 2020 works.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Clefan98

It's not coincidence almost 100% of cities who want to be connected globally see investment in an airport as a benefit for their regions.

 

Regionally:

 

Columbus is expanding.

Kansas City is basically getting a whole new airport

Pittsburgh is updating their Terminal and Airside gates yet again

Detroit and Indianapolis each have a modern palace

LaGuardia and O'Hare are getting billion dollar face jobs.

 

The global trend is not to go Cleveland's "status-quo" way.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by AmrapinVA

10 minutes ago, AmrapinVA said:

It's not coincidence almost 100% of cities who want to be connected globally see investment in an airport as a benefit for their regions.

 

Regionally:

 

Columbus is expanding.

Kansas City is basically getting a whole new airport

Pittsburgh is updating their Terminal and Airside gates yet again

Detroit and Indianapolis each have a modern palace

LaGuardia and O'Hare are getting billion dollar face jobs.

 

The global trend is not to go Cleveland's "status-quo" way.

 

Yet job growth indicators say Cleveland is doing better than all of those cities. Maybe it's not the airport?

The construction of a new terminal at CLE will likely be predicated on the fact that it will no longer be feasible to update and expand the existing structures that make up the current terminal.

 

The headhouse and concourses are a hodgepodge of buildings that have been renovated and expanded over decades. The bones of some date back to the 1950s. Air travel and the infrastructure needed to support it have changed substantially since then. The dynamics of passengers flows at CLE have also shifted. With the facility catering to O&D passengers more than ever, a greater number of people are using the headhouse and security areas of the terminal. At some point, it will be more cost-effective to start from scratch with a new building rather than try and update and expand the current one.

 

As mentioned by others, there’s nothing saying that a new terminal must be some kind of Taj Mahal. However, it should be an all-encompassing endeavor. Both the landside and airside should be taken into consideration as well as focus on sustainability as much as possible. It will no doubt be expensive, but good transport infrastructure generally is. And only in the past few years have we learned that if we let it deteriorate, it’s far more costly in terms of money to fix, operating expenses, and general perception in the long run.

41 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

This is unfortunate because JFK is a key American gateway to Europe and Central/South America.

 

If nothing else, one advantage of CLE's location has been that it's a short hop to ORD, JFK, EWR, DTW or MSP for one-stop international flights.

 

Eliminating JFK is a big loss.

 

As for UAL, who cares?

 

That's actually not true.  AA is gutting their hub at JFK, and placing emphasis on CLT and (especially) PHL as their European gateway. AA also cut flights to JFK from MSP, DTW, SAN, IAH, MCO, DCA, the list of large cites goes on.  This is NOT a issue with CLE.

 

American Airlines Appears to Be Entering a Death Spiral at New York JFK

 

 MIA is AA's key hub to central/South America, which AA just upgauged from CLE with a significant addition in seats and premium seats.

10 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Yet job growth indicators say Cleveland is doing better than all of those cities. Maybe it's not the airport?

"Job growth numbers" is wide-open to interpretation....Percent increase, percent of population empoyed, actual number of jobs, city, region.

 

I wonder how many jobs a new CLE Terminal will generate?

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

"Job growth numbers" is wide-open to interpretation....Percent increase, percent of population empoyed, actual number of jobs.

 

I wonder how many jobs a new CLE Terminal will generate?

 

It's not wide open interpretation. The same metrics apply across all metros. Give it up, you're trying too hard.

 

A new terminal would create some nice temporary construction jobs.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Clefan98

If you believe that Cleveland has more job growth than any of the cities listed, cite your reference ff.

Edited February 19, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder