Hopkins picked up additional $15 mil in federal grant money this week for taxiway improvements Announced on July 28

Not a Cleveland.com subscriber, but they have a story announcing an expansion at Hopkins by United. Is it really an expansion or just addition of service cut over the course of the Pandemic?

It looks like they are just adding back 4 flights to Florida.  This is from their Facebook page:

 

We’re excited to welcome back nonstop service on United to four sunny Florida destinations ☀️ ✈️ ! Flights to Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Orlando and Tampa will restart service in November through January 2021.

14 hours ago, skiwest said:

It looks like they are just adding back 4 flights to Florida.  This is from their Facebook page:

 

We’re excited to welcome back nonstop service on United to four sunny Florida destinations ☀️ ✈️ ! Flights to Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Orlando and Tampa will restart service in November through January 2021.

Just mentioned on Flyertalk this morning!  

 

https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/united-buys-into-vfr-strategy-by-adding-florida-flights.html?utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=

More layoffs at Hopkins. In addition to 450 UA workers and 95 Express Jet mechanics recently announced, HMS Host, the concessionaire at Hopkins, just announced they are permanently laying off 44 staff.

Things are looking up at CLE.

 

https://wtam.iheart.com/content/2020-08-18-passenger-numbers-up-at-hopkins-international-airport/

 

Edited August 18, 20204 yr by skiwest

Was at Madison Park in Lakewood last evening for my son's soccer practice and saw a stream of planes coming in from over downtown to the airport. They were as close together coming in as I've seen since the start of the pandemic. My son's practice was from 5:30-7 pm.  One of the dads there worked on a ground crew once upon a time and said his peak times were 7-7:30 am or 6-6:30 pm. 

1 hour ago, skiwest said:

Things are looking up at CLE.

 

https://wtam.iheart.com/content/2020-08-18-passenger-numbers-up-at-hopkins-international-airport/

 

The cargo number was eye-popping, maybe even a record. Plus 'exports' almost equaled 'imports'. 

Just was musing earlier today about what the United Terminal could look like

 

 

Unfortunately it's not just CLE. Last week I flew from MIA > ATL > MIA. The #1 and #10 airports in passenger traffic had more TSA agents than passengers. Most retailers were closed. I've never seen either airport so desolate. We have a long way to go to recovery.

Edited August 25, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

Master Plan Workshop:

 

https://clevelandairportmasterplan.com/workshops.php?fbclid=IwAR0K-hEZR0Gl98tXefKTm7Rm9DsqJMqAuyryAYDvM20OoXjWs73Lv2Ig2HE

 

 

According to Cleveland.com, American Airlines will be adding a weekly flight to Phoenix starting in November.

 

If anyone is going to be on the master plan call Thursday, please let us know how it goes.

Edited September 3, 20204 yr by Taller_is_better

11 hours ago, Taller_is_better said:

If anyone is going to be on the master plan call Thursday, please let us know how it goes.

 

Almost forgot I signed up for this. Glad I checked this part of the forum! I signed up, hopefully if I'm able to attend I'll be sure to chime in.

The first (?) CLE airport Master Plan community input meeting was this evening.  I missed the first 30 minutes of this 90 minute session, but they seemed to start with an overview of the current situation – passenger numbers, market share, shift from hub airport to origin & destination airport.  The presentation part was about 40 minutes, then it was open Q&A for the remaining 50 minutes.  Panel was Robert Kennedy (airport director) and four of his staff (I think), plus reps from the consulting firm (RS&H) that will create the master plan and a person from ODOT.

 

Questions/Comments – sorry these are all over the place; I’m just trying to give you all a flavor of what was discussed during Q&A.  Generally each bullet below is the topic of the question or comment followed by the panel's response:

- For the master plan, all options are on the table, including evaluation of building new terminal. One purpose of master plan is to determine preferred alternative (out of renovate / rebuild in current location / build new, which would presumably would replace IX)

- Heavy emphasis that airline fees must pay all related expenses to operating and building, so it is extremely important to be cost conscious.

- Terminal D was designed for a type of aircraft that is unlikely to ever be used again at CLE.  It would cost roughly $100M to reconfigure Term D for the aircraft that CLE hosts now and in the future.  It is considered a “distressed asset”, but United is still paying for it.  Terminal D will be evaluated as part of master plan.

- Federal Inspection Services for arriving international flights – they acknowledged that it is very bad as is, and described some of the things they have tried. Unfortunately, no cost-reasonable way of addressing this near term. Kennedy claimed that the current solution is best current option, until new master plan implemented.

- New ground transit center at north end of terminal is on track to complete construction in November

- Based on discussions between all Ohio airports and Senator Sherrod Brown to discuss current situation resulting from COVID, it seems that CLE is faring better than other Ohio airports.

- CLE has good working relationship with airlines and the airlines do see opportunities here.  As one example, the airlines are funding full cost of master plan development ($4.5M). Other airports are not getting full funding from airlines for these types of planning activities.

- Someone asked about completely relocating the airport.  Kennedy explained that this would be staggeringly expensive, especially considering all the related infrastructure. I liked that the first infrastructure he mentioned was RTA.  He also mentioned highway connections.  (He previously worked at ATL, where 4000(!) airport workers PER DAY use MARTA to get to the airport. I think I heard that right.)

- There was good discussion on how to better utilize the existing RTA connection.

- Direct Europe flights – trying hard and they consider it very important. They are hoping for it but it probably won’t be any time soon.

- CLE actively trying to convince two ultra-low cost carriers to make this area a domicile location to improve service.  They commented that the airlines have quickly figured out there is good opportunity from leisure travelers in this market.

- 208 people registered for this session and 105 participated

- Question on extending runway – basically, the powerful jets of 777 and 787 mean those aircraft actually require less runway than many 737, so it unlikely that runway would need to be extended.  Basically the runway length as is is acceptable.  That said, extending the runway will be evaluated for the potential benefit to 737 type aircraft as part of master plan.

- Question on self-driving cars potentially being in scope since this will be a 20 year plan – basically they said they hope for it, but not much to work with yet.

- TRIGGER WARNING FOR KJP and JAKE: Question on Hyperloop – they commented on discussing this with NOACA.  They acknowledged the potential for competition, but also said they view it as a potential feeder system that might actually increase demand for longer range flights. (Which is a  point KJP frequently makes about the potential for a rail connection at CLE.)

- Subsidizing international routes – airport can only provide marketing funds and waive fees (per FAA).  Cannot direct subsidize. Where subsidizing is done, it is done by the community.  They mentioned that Jobs Ohio has been more seriously evaluating this recently.

- Someone asked about the possibility of Asian route. Committee did a good job of not laughing at this question. Explained that current demand is not there.

- Two people with many complaints on noise.  I mean, it’s not like the airport has been there 100 years.  Maybe don’t live by the airport if you don’t like airplane noise.  (They handled it much more sensitively than my response.)

- Next public input meeting tentatively scheduled on Oct 14

- RS&H (consulting) rep made some nice, positive comments at the end on the questions and comments coming from the people who participated.  He said he has participated in many of these sessions and they don’t usually get as many high quality questions.

 

Overall it was a good session and I’m glad I tuned in.

I attended the master plan Zoom session. Nothing earth-shattering to report. It started with some intros by a few people, followed by a power point describing what a master plan is, deficiencies of the current airport, projections for the next 20 years. Second half was Q&A.  Seems like plan is still in analysis phase and all options are still on the table. Well, except for a new airport at another location. I think they said the next session will be on Oct. 14th.

 

Edit: It looks like Boomerang took better notes than I did. ?

Edited September 4, 20204 yr by skiwest

Thanks Boomerang for the great notes!  Interesting to hear that CLE is doing better in this environment than other Ohio airports.  I wonder what is driving that, or if it's just a comment based on an informal discussion?  Also nice to hear that they at least have the RTA in mind as part of the Master Plan discussion.  

2 hours ago, ML11 said:

Thanks Boomerang for the great notes!  Interesting to hear that CLE is doing better in this environment than other Ohio airports.  I wonder what is driving that, or if it's just a comment based on an informal discussion?  Also nice to hear that they at least have the RTA in mind as part of the Master Plan discussion.  

The panel did not definitively say. The implication was the other airports were more desperately requesting government help. The implication was that passenger numbers (and therefore landing fees) were not as depressed at CLE. There may also be other financial differences, perhaps less debt load. I’m speculating. 

1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

The implication was that passenger numbers (and therefore landing fees) were not as depressed at CLE.

 

I don't think this is accurate. CMH has seen an almost identical percentage drop in total passengers compared to CLE. CLE has seen a 57.73% YTD drop in total passengers as of July. CMH has seen a 58.8% drop for the same time period. LCK, which houses the Allegiant flights in Columbus and is part of the same airport authority, has seen a 38.8% drop. So, when you combine CMH and LCK, CLE only comes out a quarter of a percent better in terms of passenger dropoff. For some context, total passengers at CMH and LCK was 2,180,283 as of July, and total passengers at CLE was 2,493,800. CMH accounted for 2,056,075 of the total in Columbus, while LCK accounted for the remaining 124,208. Last year, CMH and LCK totaled 5,192,359 through July, and CLE totaled 5,852,278. 

 

DAY has seen a drop-off of 59.4% for the same period. I'm not sure about Akron or Toledo, and CVG is in Kentucky. 

On 9/3/2020 at 9:09 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

 Next public input meeting tentatively scheduled on Oct 14

 

Link to sign up for said meeting:   

 

https://rsandh.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_64mae_YKTq2dMsJw4BsSug

1 hour ago, simplythis said:

I-X Center is closing. https://fox8.com/news/i-team/clevelands-i-x-center-to-close-at-end-of-the-year/

 

1 hour ago, simplythis said:

Ch 19 story.https://www.cleveland19.com/2020/09/16/i-x-center-close-after-years/

 

So what will this mean for the Airport master plan? What would Hopkins gain from having control of the site?

On 9/3/2020 at 9:09 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

The first (?) CLE airport Master Plan community input meeting was this evening.  I missed the first 30 minutes of this 90 minute session, but they seemed to start with an overview of the current situation – passenger numbers, market share, shift from hub airport to origin & destination airport.  The presentation part was about 40 minutes, then it was open Q&A for the remaining 50 minutes.  Panel was Robert Kennedy (airport director) and four of his staff (I think), plus reps from the consulting firm (RS&H) that will create the master plan and a person from ODOT.

 

Questions/Comments – sorry these are all over the place; I’m just trying to give you all a flavor of what was discussed during Q&A.  Generally each bullet below is the topic of the question or comment followed by the panel's response:

- For the master plan, all options are on the table, including evaluation of building new terminal. One purpose of master plan is to determine preferred alternative (out of renovate / rebuild in current location / build new, which would presumably would replace IX)

- Heavy emphasis that airline fees must pay all related expenses to operating and building, so it is extremely important to be cost conscious.

- Terminal D was designed for a type of aircraft that is unlikely to ever be used again at CLE.  It would cost roughly $100M to reconfigure Term D for the aircraft that CLE hosts now and in the future.  It is considered a “distressed asset”, but United is still paying for it.  Terminal D will be evaluated as part of master plan.

- Federal Inspection Services for arriving international flights – they acknowledged that it is very bad as is, and described some of the things they have tried. Unfortunately, no cost-reasonable way of addressing this near term. Kennedy claimed that the current solution is best current option, until new master plan implemented.

- New ground transit center at north end of terminal is on track to complete construction in November

- Based on discussions between all Ohio airports and Senator Sherrod Brown to discuss current situation resulting from COVID, it seems that CLE is faring better than other Ohio airports.

- CLE has good working relationship with airlines and the airlines do see opportunities here.  As one example, the airlines are funding full cost of master plan development ($4.5M). Other airports are not getting full funding from airlines for these types of planning activities.

- Someone asked about completely relocating the airport.  Kennedy explained that this would be staggeringly expensive, especially considering all the related infrastructure. I liked that the first infrastructure he mentioned was RTA.  He also mentioned highway connections.  (He previously worked at ATL, where 4000(!) airport workers PER DAY use MARTA to get to the airport. I think I heard that right.)

- There was good discussion on how to better utilize the existing RTA connection.

- Direct Europe flights – trying hard and they consider it very important. They are hoping for it but it probably won’t be any time soon.

- CLE actively trying to convince two ultra-low cost carriers to make this area a domicile location to improve service.  They commented that the airlines have quickly figured out there is good opportunity from leisure travelers in this market.

- 208 people registered for this session and 105 participated

- Question on extending runway – basically, the powerful jets of 777 and 787 mean those aircraft actually require less runway than many 737, so it unlikely that runway would need to be extended.  Basically the runway length as is is acceptable.  That said, extending the runway will be evaluated for the potential benefit to 737 type aircraft as part of master plan.

- Question on self-driving cars potentially being in scope since this will be a 20 year plan – basically they said they hope for it, but not much to work with yet.

- TRIGGER WARNING FOR KJP and JAKE: Question on Hyperloop – they commented on discussing this with NOACA.  They acknowledged the potential for competition, but also said they view it as a potential feeder system that might actually increase demand for longer range flights. (Which is a  point KJP frequently makes about the potential for a rail connection at CLE.)

- Subsidizing international routes – airport can only provide marketing funds and waive fees (per FAA).  Cannot direct subsidize. Where subsidizing is done, it is done by the community.  They mentioned that Jobs Ohio has been more seriously evaluating this recently.

- Someone asked about the possibility of Asian route. Committee did a good job of not laughing at this question. Explained that current demand is not there.

- Two people with many complaints on noise.  I mean, it’s not like the airport has been there 100 years.  Maybe don’t live by the airport if you don’t like airplane noise.  (They handled it much more sensitively than my response.)

- Next public input meeting tentatively scheduled on Oct 14

- RS&H (consulting) rep made some nice, positive comments at the end on the questions and comments coming from the people who participated.  He said he has participated in many of these sessions and they don’t usually get as many high quality questions.

 

Overall it was a good session and I’m glad I tuned in.

really nice notes.  Cleveland.com put out an request for comments/inquiries and directed questions to specific e-mail addresses.  I sent my comments and thoughts and my biggest concerns were the Customs and the Hotel.  My gosh the hotel is so outdated. I think concessions are fine, i like the local flare and i think the checkpoints are currently fine.  New modern design would probably benefit the airport

30 minutes ago, KJP said:

For those of you too young to remember.....

https://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20010212/SUB/102120724/i-x-deal-takes-more-weight-off-white

 

I thought I saved some of the old site plans of the proposed airport expansion. But I think they're in hardcopy (that's how we did things back then). I'll see if I can find them but they might be at the office.

 

For some additional context on past airport expansion plans including the I-X center...

 

Hard Landing, Tiny Brook Park tries to hijack Mayor Mike White's lofty plans for expanding Hopkins Airport.

Erick Trickey - Aug. 24, 2000

 

"Cleveland insists it will need to tear down the I-X Center several years from now to build a new runway for Hopkins Airport. But the building lies inside Brook Park, and the suburb says Cleveland can build the runway somewhere else. When Cleveland bought the I-X Center last year, Brook Park sued to seize it by eminent domain...."

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/hard-landing/Content?oid=1474923

 

Razing the I-X Center: Whatever happened to? ...

Mark Gillispie - Apr. 12, 2010

 

"Cleveland Mayor Michael R. White back in 2000 laid the groundwork for a deal that would allow for the runway to be built. As part of that deal, Cleveland traded NASA Glenn Research Center and the income taxes it collected from employees for the I-X Center, which was located in Brook Park. Cleveland paid the owner of the I-X Center $30 million in cash and provided $30 million in rent rebates with the understanding that the city would demolish the former Army tank plant (and around 300 Brook Park homes) after 2014 to make way for the new runway."

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/razing_the_i-x_center_14_milli.html

15 minutes ago, WhatUp said:

 

 

So what will this mean for the Airport master plan? What would Hopkins gain from having control of the site?

 

Can the airport masterplan process, which has been underway for more than a year, pivot that quickly to incorporate the possibility of this property becoming available? 

 

FYI the next masterplan public information meeting will be held virtually using Zoom meeting software on October 14th at 6:00pm ET.

REGISTER: https://clevelandairportmasterplan.com/workshops.php

 

I've reached out to the master plan study team to see what they can share.

 

11 hours ago, NorthShore647 said:

 

For some additional context on past airport expansion plans including the I-X center...

 

Hard Landing, Tiny Brook Park tries to hijack Mayor Mike White's lofty plans for expanding Hopkins Airport.

Erick Trickey - Aug. 24, 2000

 

"Cleveland insists it will need to tear down the I-X Center several years from now to build a new runway for Hopkins Airport. But the building lies inside Brook Park, and the suburb says Cleveland can build the runway somewhere else. When Cleveland bought the I-X Center last year, Brook Park sued to seize it by eminent domain...."

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/hard-landing/Content?oid=1474923

 

Razing the I-X Center: Whatever happened to? ...

Mark Gillispie - Apr. 12, 2010

 

"Cleveland Mayor Michael R. White back in 2000 laid the groundwork for a deal that would allow for the runway to be built. As part of that deal, Cleveland traded NASA Glenn Research Center and the income taxes it collected from employees for the I-X Center, which was located in Brook Park. Cleveland paid the owner of the I-X Center $30 million in cash and provided $30 million in rent rebates with the understanding that the city would demolish the former Army tank plant (and around 300 Brook Park homes) after 2014 to make way for the new runway."

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/razing_the_i-x_center_14_milli.html

The city traded the NASA Glenn Research Center for a now defunct IX center. With that and the hundreds of businesses that left Cleveland for the suburbs in the last 20 years, I don't know why this city's slogan isn't "we bleed jobs like a gunshot wound"

I had no idea that happened. How was that a good trade?

1 hour ago, JB said:

I had no idea that happened. How was that a good trade?

 

In terms of direct trade, it wasn't. But since Brook Park can't build an international airport, it had to be done. What made it worse was the corruption that surrounded it....

https://m.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-sweetest-deal/Content?oid=1494374

 

So after talking to a couple of members of the master plan team, they acknowledged that the I-X Center's closing may actually be a blessing in disguise for the city which is trying to get more revenue from ancillary airport uses that are on city property. The I-X Center pays no rent and hasn't since 1999. The I-X Center was allowed to walk away from the contract but the city anytime after 2014. So this pandemic was the right time to walk away. The Sheraton also pays little or no rent and it could close too with the city being the winner in the long run. If so, the city is going to rebid these and take the best offers.

Saw the news on the I-X center, as an outsider I have a couple questions...

 

1.  The I-X center (which was a former army tank plant, just found that out, very interesting) appears to have been a poor use for that site ever since the new Cleveland convention center opened up downtown. It seems like phasing it out has been part of the plan since 2014 as referenced above. The 300 Brook Park homes to be demolished along with it for an airport expansion... are those all of the homes north of Sheldon Rd, west of Donte's?

 

2.  If the airport expansion doesn't happen this looks like an excellent building to repurpose into a distribution center. Dayton has recently had a lot of luck selling off land by their airport (now that FAA regulations loosened how close buildings can be to airports, apparently) for warehouse space. Are there plans for another convention center with 2.2 million square foot of one-story space like the I-X center had, is there another city nearby that has that kind of space, or is it not necessary anymore? I'm guessing option #3 is the best answer since fewer conventions happen now, and most of those conventions appear to go to fewer venues (Chicago, Las Vegas, etc.) but was curious if anything else is in the pipeline

 

3.  There's a couple of vacant streets just to the west of the houses north of Sheldon Rd. in Brook Park. I couldn't tell what used to be there but my best guess is public housing. Is that what was there, or was there something else?

 

3 hours ago, SWOH said:

Saw the news on the I-X center, as an outsider I have a couple questions...

 

1.  The I-X center (which was a former army tank plant, just found that out, very interesting) appears to have been a poor use for that site ever since the new Cleveland convention center opened up downtown. It seems like phasing it out has been part of the plan since 2014 as referenced above. The 300 Brook Park homes to be demolished along with it for an airport expansion... are those all of the homes north of Sheldon Rd, west of Donte's?

 

2.  If the airport expansion doesn't happen this looks like an excellent building to repurpose into a distribution center. Dayton has recently had a lot of luck selling off land by their airport (now that FAA regulations loosened how close buildings can be to airports, apparently) for warehouse space. Are there plans for another convention center with 2.2 million square foot of one-story space like the I-X center had, is there another city nearby that has that kind of space, or is it not necessary anymore? I'm guessing option #3 is the best answer since fewer conventions happen now, and most of those conventions appear to go to fewer venues (Chicago, Las Vegas, etc.) but was curious if anything else is in the pipeline

 

3.  There's a couple of vacant streets just to the west of the houses north of Sheldon Rd. in Brook Park. I couldn't tell what used to be there but my best guess is public housing. Is that what was there, or was there something else?

 

My understanding is that the airport started tearing down houses, hence those vacant streets.  They retained the option to tear down the rest of the houses north of Sheldon in the future for the runway expansion, but that’s obviously been put off for quite a while now.

BTW, the I-X Center apparently did start paying rent again in 2014 but city officials still think they can get more money from someone else. And I reiterate, where else is there a for-lease, 2.2 million square foot warehouse/distribution center to which an e-commerce or shipping firm can bring heavy cargo planes right up to the building and load/unload?

19 minutes ago, KJP said:

BTW, the I-X Center apparently did start paying rent again in 2014 but city officials still think they can get more money from someone else. And I reiterate, where else is there a for-lease, 2.2 million square foot warehouse/distribution center to which an e-commerce or shipping firm can bring heavy cargo planes right up to the building and load/unload?

 

True--except that the City of Cleveland is not a very good aviation business manager.   They are not ones to be out hustling in Seattle to woo Amazon, or similar business to take up the IX center as a hub.   

 

On the Burke Lakefront thread I have pointed out in the past that there are actually the same amount of aviation related businesses at CGF managed by the county than BKL/CLE combined.  

On 9/19/2020 at 5:28 PM, SWOH said:

Saw the news on the I-X center, as an outsider I have a couple questions...

 

1.  The I-X center (which was a former army tank plant, just found that out, very interesting) appears to have been a poor use for that site ever since the new Cleveland convention center opened up do

 

First a bomber plant, then a tank plant

https://www.ixcenter.com/history/

First glance at alternatives, sounds fun!

These are some screen grabs from tonight's meeting which is just wrapping up:

New Terminal Facility

 

 

 

 

 

 

Landside Passenger Access 

 

 

 

 

 

\

 

Landside Development Areas

 

 

 

 

 

These are just some notes I had from the comments section of the meeting:

• There was a question regarding increased rail connections to the airport. Although an Amtrak stop was not included in the master plan, they were aware of the potential for one and referred to the governor "Kasich killed" Ohio rail plan that would’ve increased the daily number of trains passing the airport beyond the current 4. A potential future station was considered possible in all Terminal alternatives considered and nothing is being done to preclude a station in the future.
• An easy connection to the Redline for employees and passengers was high on the priority list. All terminal alternatives considered the Redlines current station as (relatively) fixed. Whichever preferred alternative Terminal is suggested in the plan would likely not require any large adjustments to the RTAs current station and infrastructure.
• Airport/planners are very keen on locating rental car facilities near new terminal family.
• D terminal could be used as an interim gate facility during construction for the new terminal. There are currently no plans to tear it down before the construction of the new terminal. More research is needed on if they will reuse D again in the future.
• One of the "South Development Area" alternatives included specific considerations for the ability to extended taxiways to the IX center for a potential future use of the facility.  
• The airport is not actively considering acquiring any land east of the Berea freeway.
• The airport is willing to sell adjacent land (that was acquired after the residential teardowns for noise abatement) for light industry purposes.
• An upgrade to international arrivals and customs area are a big priority in the master plan.
• In a response to a question regarding the likelihood of a new terminal adjacent hotel (to replace the Sheraton), the high rate of trips beginning or ending at Hopkins was brought up (97% of all trips).
• Airport officials reiterated that the 10 signatory carriers servicing Hopkins came to an agreement that renovations were needed. These carriers are paying for the plan and that there is no FAA money involved in financing the master plan.
• Other “terminal families” were eliminated from further consideration due to high comparative preliminary costs and their “constructability”. The difficulty of building a new terminal around an existing airport was reiterated and it will factor heavily into the master plans preferred alternative.  
• On a question regarding the potential construction timeline for the new facilities, airport officials reiterated that this master plan is the very beginning, and that the heavy lifting will be done after the preferred alternatives are determined.
• Regarding future financing, officials said that this is one of the most difficult financing markets that they will ever face. Their capability to finance the project would be more long term that they would like. No city, county or state tax dollars are going towards the project. The 10 signatory airlines at Hopkins will have to stand behind the airport’s debt. The current financial situations facing both legacy and low-cost carriers were acknowledged.
• Only smaller changes to the existing taxiways are planned such as greater taxiway separation from runways in a few areas. It would not include anything as large as the north airfield project.
• Additional runway capacity was determined to not be necessary with the projected future traffic growth.   
• Other airports that were considered to be good models for Hopkins (regarding its rebuild) included LaGuardia, Nashville, Reagan-National, Salt Lake and BWI.

• For a more specific example, Charlotte’s new consolidated parking and rental car facility was mentioned as a model. The first three levels or the terminal adjacent facility are for rental car companies and the top four having ~7,000 public parking spots.

 

TL;DR - Still very early in the process, construction is far off. Financing now would be very difficult. New rental car facilities, additional parking and reworked roadways approaching Arrivals/Departures are big priorities landside. The 3 "terminal families" being pursued all overlap in some way with the existing facilities. A new terminals constructability around the existing airport will factor heavily in which becomes the preferred alternative. 

 

The 3 Terminal Concepts Selected for Detailed Evaluation: 

Edited October 15, 20204 yr by NorthShore647

^ Thanks for posting the screen captures, @NorthShore647.  Lots of great info in the session this evening.  The thing that I think will be most interesting to the UrbanOhio team is the Virtual, On-Demand Information Meeting site that is now live:

https://www.rsandh.com/collateral/aviation/cle-vpim2/

This thing is very cool.   ALL of the slides and images from the planning sessions, including all the evaluated terminal options, are posted.  It is a virtual room that you can "walk around" to different stations and view the info or submit feedback.  They said they tried to make it approximate the experience of attending a planning session as best they could, and I think the did a good job.

 

You can also post comments and questions on the CLE master plan web site.

https://clevelandairportmasterplan.com/

 

Meeting notes:

The big takeaway - at a minimum, the new Master Plan will call for a substantial rebuild of the terminal and concourses, with building from the ground up (while continuing operations in the existing facilities) being strongly considered.  Of the terminal options shown in the above post (and the Virtual Info Meeting at the link above), Options 1, 2, and 6 are the ones that will get more in depth evaluation.  The others were eliminated based on projected costs or service levels.  (Although I did really like Option 3, which looks most like what I had suggested a few months back.)

 

The next in person meeting will be in December.

 

As far as the planning team is concerned, the biggest needs are:

- Terminal facility, specifically, all of the following need dramatically more space:

    - Ticketing/Check-in

    - Checked Bag capacity

    - Security screening

    - "Holdrooms" (gate waiting areas)

- Improved roadway access. As shown in the previous post, they are evaluating substantially rerouting of the roadways to access the airport.

- Parking

- Access to rental car facility

- International arrivals

 

All of the proposed plans also included an increased number of gates.

 

Robert Kennedy (airport director) again emphasized that this planning has strong support from all the airlines at the airport, both low cost and legacy.  The main concern he raised about the whole project is that because the entire funding must be financed by the airlines, the current financial struggles of the airlines could make it very hard to properly fund the project.

 

Both this meeting and the previous meeting repeatedly called out the importance of the Red Line.  It sounds like maintaining this was one of the reasons that certain Terminal options were eliminated.  They did NOT have any reference to the passenger rail tracks across 237; however, when I asked about it, one of the consultants stated very clearly that all of the Terminal options being evaluated would leave the potential for a future passenger rail station.  His response at least sounded informed.

 

As discussed in the previous meeting, the studies have concluded that there is no need for adding a runway or lengthening the existing runway(s).  The current operational capacity is 300K annual operations.  The largest projected need is for 140K operations.  As far as runway length, the summary is that the jets on new planes are so powerful that a longer runway isn't needed, even for flights to Europe or the West coast.  That said, they do need to make substantial modifications to the taxiways.

4 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Both this meeting and the previous meeting repeatedly called out the importance of the Red Line.  It sounds like maintaining this was one of the reasons that certain Terminal options were eliminated.  They did NOT have any reference to the passenger rail tracks across 237; however, when I asked about it, one of the consultants stated very clearly that all of the Terminal options being evaluated would leave the potential for a future passenger rail station.  His response at least sounded informed.

 

I though that question seemed like is was from an UrbanOhio contributor! I would agree that he sounded informed. (If only we got those trains running in the 3-C Corridor) Below are direct links to the first two meetings presentations. They do not include the Q&A sections.  

 

Meeting 1 - Sep. 3, 2020

 

Meeting 2 - Oct. 14, 2020

 

Three terminal expansion options considered for Cleveland Hopkins, part of airport master-plan process

Susan Glaser - Oct. 14, 2020

 

"Despite the pandemic-related drop in air traffic, Cleveland officials believe the time is right to plan for the future. Passenger forecasts suggest that Cleveland Hopkins will return to 2019 air traffic levels, when 10 million travelers passed through the airport, by 2024, growing to 13.5 million by 2039."

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020/10/three-terminal-expansion-options-considered-for-cleveland-hopkins-part-of-airport-master-plan-process.html

On 10/15/2020 at 12:27 PM, NorthShore647 said:

Three terminal expansion options considered for Cleveland Hopkins, part of airport master-plan process

Susan Glaser - Oct. 14, 2020

 

"Despite the pandemic-related drop in air traffic, Cleveland officials believe the time is right to plan for the future. Passenger forecasts suggest that Cleveland Hopkins will return to 2019 air traffic levels, when 10 million travelers passed through the airport, by 2024, growing to 13.5 million by 2039."

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020/10/three-terminal-expansion-options-considered-for-cleveland-hopkins-part-of-airport-master-plan-process.html

 

There is a very grim prediction in today's WSJ that business air travel will permanently decline by 19-36% even after wide distribution of a vaccine. I believe this is overly pessimistic; but still it's cause for the airport to take a go slow approach to implementing any new master plan.  Concourse B needs a serious buff-up; Concourse C could use widening (bump out the gate holding areas with cantilevered decking) as previously proposed; and a new customs/immigration facility is a must. Grander plans could wait while the debt is payed down more.

 

Am I alone in thinking the new American-JetBlue partership will be positive for Cleveland?  🙂🙂🙂

13 minutes ago, Dougal said:

 

There is a very grim prediction in today's WSJ that business air travel will permanently decline by 19-36% even after wide distribution of a vaccine. I believe this is overly pessimistic; but still it's cause for the airport to take a go slow approach to implementing any new master plan.  Concourse B needs a serious buff-up; Concourse C could use widening (bump out the gate holding areas with cantilevered decking) as previously proposed; and a new customs/immigration facility is a must. Grander plans could wait while the debt is payed down more.

 

Am I alone in thinking the new American-JetBlue partership will be positive for Cleveland?  🙂🙂🙂

 Since I don't have a membership can you give some of the reasons why?  I would think that having people work from where ever in the country would cause them to have to travel more if anything since they wouldn't be near the headquarters.

I am not so pessimistic.  A lot of people are champing at the bit to start traveling again (me included).  I suppose business travel may take a little longer to recover, but I see it returning to pre-pandemic levels eventually.   Even when the new master plan is completed and approved, it will be a few years before it becomes a reality.  Depending on which plan is selected, doing it in phases might be a good approach.

 

Edited December 2, 20204 yr by skiwest

^agreed. Travel will explode once there is a vaccine. So much pent up desire to travel amongst those I know

2 hours ago, YO to the CLE said:

^agreed. Travel will explode once there is a vaccine. So much pent up desire to travel amongst those I know

 

Vacation and visit-the-family travel will explode, I agree; but that tends to be budget flying.  I think higher-margin business travel will be slower to come back - just not as slow as the WSJ is predicting.

3 hours ago, cle_guy90 said:

 Since I don't have a membership can you give some of the reasons why?  I would think that having people work from where ever in the country would cause them to have to travel more if anything since they wouldn't be near the headquarters.

 

The article said sales-related travel will be the least affected; but administrative, service, and training travel will stay way down. Opinions differed on how convention-related travel will do.

I remember in the aftermath of September 11 business travel was gutted and everyone said it would never come back.  Some convention business did suffer, but ultimately the airlines returned to record passenger loads and profits.   

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

I remember in the aftermath of September 11 business travel was gutted and everyone said it would never come back.  Some convention business did suffer, but ultimately the airlines returned to record passenger loads and profits.   

For better or worse humans do a really good job of forgetting, sometimes that leads to history repeating itself. Let's hope that isn't the case here. 

CLE reported 17 million pounds of cargo for the month of October. This may be a record; it certainly is over the last 5 years.  And maybe that new Purell warehouse (IX Center) will boost the numbers even more.  Post-Covid, I think the numbers will hold up. People have found Fedex/UPS so convenient.

 

https://www.clevelandairport.com/about-us/facts-figures

I thought there would be another master plan workshop this month, but I don't see anything scheduled yet.  With the holidays coming, it looks like it will not occur until early next year.

On 12/7/2020 at 1:31 PM, Dougal said:

CLE reported 17 million pounds of cargo for the month of October. This may be a record; it certainly is over the last 5 years.  And maybe that new Purell warehouse (IX Center) will boost the numbers even more.  Post-Covid, I think the numbers will hold up. People have found Fedex/UPS so convenient.

 

https://www.clevelandairport.com/about-us/facts-figures

 

I live under one of the flight lines and it's kind of funny, come 10-11PM ya hear at least one jet fly over and almost always its FedEx, I know it's nothing special but still, talk about an old regular lol. 

 

Sidenote, if you're an occasional insomniac like me open a flight tracker app in the late evening (~12AM) and look at the midwest airports receiving cargo planes (Louisville (FedEx), CVG (UPS), Indy, etc.), then watch the craziness start around 3AM of all of them shooting back off until ~7-8AM. Again, not CLE related, but still cool to see (and glad I don't live near those airports!!). 

 

Also, I've floated around some pilot forums and cargo pilots sound like the cowboys of commercial air travel - crazy hours, less regulations, and no passengers to worry about when it comes to takeoff angles and flying conditions lol. 

Edited December 31, 20204 yr by GISguy

2 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

I live under one of the flight lines and it's kind of funny, come 10-11PM ya hear at least one jet fly over and almost always its FedEx, I know it's nothing special but still, talk about an old regular lol.

Most of the year there are four flights four days a week around that time. 2 Fedex to Memphis and Indianapolis and 2 UPS to Louisville and Philadelphia; three of them are normally wide-bodies. During the November/December holidays, things get busier. I heard that Cleveland Heart Lab (which unfortunately sold out to Quest Diagnostics) is single-handedly responsible for one plane-worth of cargo every day.