I don't think Jackson is an idiot.  I think he has a genuine grasp of a lot of the major issues facing this city and region- including regional cooperation and education.  I don't agree with all of his actions though, this one included.  Hopefully Mok stays.

I don't think Jackson is an idiot.  I think he has a genuine grasp of a lot of the major issues facing this city and region- including regional cooperation and education.  I don't agree with all of his actions though, this one included.  Hopefully Mok stays.

 

My sentiments exactly.

I don't think Jackson is an idiot, but I don't think he is his own man.  The new political machine put him in power, and they get to make the decisons, in my opinion.

I have to agree with punch to a point.  I too think he is a politcal figurehead put into power by business leaders.  I still DO, however, think he sounds like an idiot when he speaks.  I don't think he understands the city as a whole.  I think he tends to lean towards "his" community a bit much, the central neighborhood.  Unfortunately, Cleveland has become a city of handouts and freebies. We seem to want to continually coddle those who could have, but did not, and forget about those who could have, did, and DO!  Instead of doing as the federal goverment does, we still have the wonderful "quota" system in place, and our city gambleswith a "cut off it's nose to spite it's face" attitude with federal money by conctantly trying to use the stupid "Fanny Lewis Law" inevery project.  There has to be a time that all these handouts have to end!  Why not put emphasis on parent(s), emphasis on education, and emphasis on becoming a productive human being in society.  Instead we just keep giving and giving, and it STILL isn't enough.  Is our society trying to say that the recipients of the handouts are a lost cause?  Tryig to say they are not intelligent enough to do for themselves?  It would seem that way.  Plain and simple, at some point people need to take control of themselves!  Public assistance was setup as a safety net, not a way of life.  I am not Democrat nor Republican, I am for leadership that will get things done.  Unfortunately, we have had weak leadership in Cleveland, and it seems that the trend will continue.  There are too many cooks in the kitchen, and the soup just isn't right.  I HOPE I will be proven wrong, I hope at the end of Jackson's four years I can be made fun of for spouting off.  A gut feeling tells me not much is going to change. :) Maybe we could get Richard Daley or Rudy Guliani to run this place!  lol  ......just a thought

Instead we just keep giving and giving, and it STILL isn't enough.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with your policy, but could you explain how Jackson's policies as mayor have stressed "giving and giving"?

"Jackson declined to talk about Mok other than to say that as mayor, he gets to pick the airport director and a search gives him the opportunity to find the best one."

 

Yeah Frank, we get it already. :roll: We know you're the mayor and we know you get to do a lot of things. Hopefully those things won't include making stupid decisions.

As a person who uses the airport multiple times during the week, I cannot see a better person to run our airport.  Mok is Cleveland's first true airport leader in decades.

 

Our service levels and passenger enplanemnets increased because of him.  He had a cushy job in Dallas, since American is headquartered there.  Came to Cleveland and really turned it around.  I think many people would have been intimadated, by the sheer job or someone of lesser quality would have let the airport fall even further than it has.

 

Cleveland is not an easy market to gain share as chicago is hub to two airlines (one being HQ there), Detroit has NW, and to a lesser level, Milwaukee is home to Midway.  Our situation is we have a hub, but Continental, doesn't have enough planes to exand to the degree that NE Ohio's would like to see.  We also have akron syphoning off passengers, however , tha trend myigh tbe changing as many passenger realize that cheap fare has limits because you still have to drive to cleveland to connect anywhere else, unless your final destination is Akron.  Let's hope Southwest starts to reinvest in cleveland and jetblue decides to make Cleveland its "focus city" hub like JFK and Long Beach.

 

Frank Jackson is an IDIOT!   I am sure his decision making skills will be about as good as his command of the English  language.....

 

thats unfair!  There are plenty of people that use bad grammar, but make good decisions.  Let not let "personal" opinions cloud the great good of the city

I don't think Jackson is an idiot, but I don't think he is his own man.  The new political machine put him in power, and they get to make the decisons, in my opinion.

 

I totally agree.  The underserved voices of Cleveland have spoken.

 

 

From the outside looking in, it appears that it would be a stupid decision to get rid of Mok. 

Agreed.  On the surface, this looks like a foolish decision.  One that, for the simple sake of doing it because he is entitled to, would be an exorbitant waste.  (These searches costs loads of money!)  If Frank Jackson is doing this because he feels that complaints warrant an investigation into Mok's treatment of hundreds (or thousands) of employees, then so be it...and I would say that it's justified.  However, from what this article tells us, Jackson's just doing it because he can.  He needs to speak up about his motives in order to justify what looks like an unintelligent move.

Agreed.  On the surface, this looks like a foolish decision.  One that, for the simple sake of doing it because he is entitled to, would be an exorbitant waste.  (These searches costs loads of money!)  If Frank Jackson is doing this because he feels that complaints warrant an investigation into Mok's treatment of hundreds (or thousands) of employees, then so be it...and I would say that it's justified.  However, from what this article tells us, Jackson's just doing it because he can.  He needs to speak up about his motives in order to justify what looks like an unintelligent move.

 

Amen, his communication with the citizens of Cleveland is very important, since so many people feel like there have been so many "backdoor" or non disclosed deals, business transactions, etc. in the past.  However, one thing in the article, caught my attention.  Why isn't Mok at more community events.  The port plays a VERY important role in NE Ohio, not just Cuyahoga County, since the airport affects the lives of 4+million people.  Also, why didn't MOK take a pay cut??

 

Also, it says he is "disconnected" from City Hall, I suspect he needed to do this in order to get his "job" done.  However, as Port Director, he needs to be visible to the community.  Granted, you're average everyday airline passenger probably doesnt care, but seasoned travelers, especially airline elite member, would want to know.

Given the choice I would take the competent, behind the scenes guy over an inadequate political appointee who gets his or her face on the evening news.

 

Odds are, if you are on the local news, it is because something is screwed up

I have seen a lot of nice changes at CLE since Mok took over.  I really like the new branding. The CLE name is catchy and the color scheme is attractive. Additionally, they have done a lot to improve the concourses with minimal investment.  The new signage is a big improvement. Also, they have painted a lot of the ugly cement columns with a nice looking gray color.  On the business side, the retail is occupied.  Outside of that, I don't know much. 

 

Two complaints that remain:  Concourse B (where Southwest is located) sure is a depressing way to arrive in Cleveland.  I always try to point my inlaws towards flying continental so that they will arrive at concourse D.  And, we seriously need some arrival and departure monitors that track all flights.

I can't believe no one's made a "this thing's run amok" joke yet...

AeroMexico has received DOT approval for their twice weekly MEX service.  This could be a fun way to use OnePass miles through the Skyteam relationship and may be an interesting codeshare with CO. The initial application indicated an April 1, 2006 start date.

 

This a good thing as Mok is really trying to attract Skyteam partners to fly directly into Cleveland.

 

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf95/386441_web.pdf

 

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf95/379898_web.pdf

 

There is also talk of air aitalia, CSA Czech, Aero Lingus, El Al and Varig introducing service NON STOP from Europe and Copa from Panama into Cleveland .  :clap:

 

Great news! 

awesome!

 

i think we need more cleveland > europe direct flights.  what are the current ones?  London? Paris? Frankfurt?

I believe that the only current international flights that Cleveland has are:

 

London, Cancun, Toronto, Montreal, ??

And Frank Jackson is searching for a new airport director because........

This is great! :clap:

Two thumbs up. Gotta get those international flights, especially to Europe. I'd love to see direct flights to the Far East, but since we're so far east in the U.S., I don't see that happening.

The AeroMexico flights to Mexico City are in conjunction with their recently-awarded charter service between Cleveland and Cancun on behalf of FunJet Vacations. AeroMexico will be flying their own metal to CLE, however the routing of the aircraft has yet to be determined. As of now, Continental will not codeshare on AeroMexico's flights to MEX or CUN.

 

There is also talk of air aitalia, CSA Czech, Aero Lingus, El Al and Varig introducing service NON STOP from Europe and Copa from Panama into Cleveland .

 

El Al and Varig to Europe? Considering El Al is the national airline of Israel and Varig is the national carrier of Brazil, I can't really see that happening. Alitalia, Aer Lingus, and CSA are LONG-shots, especially since Cleveland can only support a seasonal nonstop to London on Continental's smallest transatlantic aircraft. If anything, the most likely international carrier to CLE would be Air France of KLM, each of which are Skyteam partners, to link up to their worldwide networks in either Paris De Gaule or Amsterdam Shiphol, respectively. COPA to Panama City could be possible, since Continental owns 49% of the airline, not to mention they are acquiring EMB-190 aircraft that will give them the range to fly longer, thiner routes, like to Cleveland.

 

I believe that the only current international flights that Cleveland has are:

 

London, Cancun, Toronto, Montreal, ??

 

You can also get to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico and Punta Cana, Dominican Republic, nonstop from Cleveland via USA3000 Airlines. The service to PVR operates once weekly, and service to PUJ operates twice weekly. USA3000 also does CLE-CUN, 4x weekly I believe.

 

And Frank Jackson is searching for a new airport director because........

 

Exactly. Mr. Mok has done a fantastic job at CLE. Hopefully Mayor Jackson will realize that Mr. Mok is about the best one can get as far as airport directors go.

Thats good news for Cleveland! I wish some of these airlines woudl serve Columbus. If possible, Columbus should have Air France, British Airways, Lufthansa, Iberia?, Alitalia?, JAL. Hopefully in the future we will have these airlines, unless we have some of them now. Does Columbus have any international airlines besides Air Canada.

If possible, Columbus should have Air France, British Airways, Lufthansa, Iberia?, Alitalia?, JAL.

 

Without a hub or a large corporate subsidy, Columbus quite frankly cannot support daily, nonstop service to Europe, or any other trans-oceanic international city with the aircraft that are currently on the market. Boeing's new 787 line of aircraft is supposed to include a mid-sized jet with the range to fly between the U.S. and Europe, and could hold hope for an eventual link between cities in the U.S. like Columbus, and Europe. But for now, it simply is not feasable.

 

Just as a side note, I don't know if this still holds true, but Columbus' most traveled-to international city isn't any city in Europe actually. It's Tokyo, Japan. Why? Honda of America.

 

Does Columbus have any international airlines besides Air Canada.

 

Air Canada is currently the sole international carrier operating from CMH, with flights to Toronto operating 3x daily during the winter, 4x daily during the summer. USA3000 also operates flights to Cancun from Columbus, whose service ranges anywhere from 1 to 2 times weekly.

 

The only international flights I could see from Columbus would be to vacation destinations. USA3000 operated weekly flights to Punta Cana a year or two ago, but has not since returned the service. A weekly flight to Ixtapa/Zihuatenejo or Puerto Vallarta could probably work.

El Al and Varig to Europe? Considering El Al is the national airline of Israel and Varig is the national carrier of Brazil, I can't really see that happening. Alitalia, Aer Lingus, and CSA are LONG-shots, especially since Cleveland can only support a seasonal nonstop to London on Continental's smallest transatlantic aircraft. If anything, the most likely international carrier to CLE would be Air France of KLM, each of which are Skyteam partners, to link up to their worldwide networks in either Paris De Gaule or Amsterdam Shiphol, respectively. COPA to Panama City could be possible, since Continental owns 49% of the airline, not to mention they are acquiring EMB-190 aircraft that will give them the range to fly longer, thiner routes, like to Cleveland.

 

From what i was told, by someone on the inside.  Most of this in concert with other positive cooperative marketing initiatives to market Cleveland.  Are our political and business leaders read urban ohio??? Hummmmm....  Are they finally realizing working together is BEST for the region?

 

The initiatives:

 

One - opening consulates of the countries targetted and "partnering" with cities "sistering" where service will be scheduled. 

 

two - the CCCA will be trying to push leisure visitors to the region and market the city to cities/countries that have strong ties to Cleveland.

 

three - some carriers have expressed a desire to stay within the Skyteam partnership area in the midwest but be connected to a healthier route network.  In short..Delta and NW  financial troubles are a problem.

 

Four - backups and delays at Newark and Chicago cost the carriers money, passengers throughout the midwest can connect more easily in Cleveland as the airport is only operating at 70% of capacity, yet still growing with enplanements. Indi, Pitss, Columbus, Buffalo, Erie have no or little international service.  ATA pulled back at Indi and US Air in Pitts.  There has been an uptick in passengers from Western PA and NY who feel "abandoned" by USAir, those passengers are now connecting thru Cleveland.  Newarks backups are a major complaint.

 

five - Cleveland is Ohio's largest metropolitan area and busiest business community and one of the worlds cultural gems - "Cleveland should be Ohio's gateway to the world"!

 

Here are some reasons why certain carriers are being targetted.

 

Lufthansa

rekindles their previous interest in setting up a cargo operation at CLE, large german population and the number of DaimlerChrysler facilities in the region.

 

CSA

the eastern european community would certainly support service, given an effective code share agreement with CO I think this flight will do well multiple days per week.  Chez, german, hungarian, polish, residents are strong in number as Cleveland has some of the largest eastern eurpopean populations in the country.

 

Aer Lingus, EL AL & Alitalia

After seeing 325-360k (per event) people come out for Irish, Italian and (German) american activitys in Cleveland, there is a HUGE target audience to number of immigrant residents in greater Cleveland who make regular trips back home and a business community underserved.  The Jewish population has been vocal about getting NON STOP service.  Cleveland has a HUGE number of Jews who make the trip back home several times a year and there are several Jewish company's that have offices in Cleveland, the CLE flight could pick-up TLV-bound pax from the West Coast and Midwest. Nonstop service to TLV would be very popular in town and throughout the midwest.  The O&D market is able and willing to support such service. 

 

COPA

Given the number of companies in the region that do business in central and south america (Sherwin Williams) AND the sizable hispanic community, this does seem to make sense. And as noted, Continental owns a large stake.

 

Varig

Cleveland has, the largest, if not one of the largest brazilian population in the midwest, there is a significant amount of travel to chicago connecting to brazil.  However, with Varig being a Star Alliance member this probably won't get far.

 

 

Continental has been asked about non stop service to Hawaii and restoring service to Akron/Canton; KLM non-stop to Amsterdam and JetBlue about making Cleveland their "focus city" in the midwest as they have NO presence in the midwest.  Also noted was "discount" flights into CAK are now not panning out as initially thought as passenger STILL have to come into Cleveland to connect elsewhere, unless there final destination is Akron/Canton.

 

Cleveland can only support a seasonal nonstop to London on Continental's smallest transatlantic aircraft

 

Continental has shown & MOK came with TWO STACKS of supporting evidence (see above) that the service from Cleveland on many international  and Trans-Con routes can be sustastained as O7D traffic is up.  Other nearby cities loss in direct service has been a gain here.  The london service is operating with full planes.  Its continentals bad fleet management AND lack of wide body equipment that stops the enhancement of service in Cleveland.  Continental has about 1/3 the amount of wide body planes as American and United.  Those carriers each have over 200 widebodies in their fleets and Continental only has about 75.

 

Exactly. Mr. Mok has done a fantastic job at CLE. Hopefully Mayor Jackson will realize that Mr. Mok is about the best one can get as far as airport directors go.

 

City Council, County and Suburban Mayors along with the NEO business community are not going to let Jackson get rid of MOK.  There is overwhelming support for him on all levels, the airport has never been better "operationally" and seats flown, have increased every year sense he's been here.  He and he alone is the reason for the improvement.

I think that Cleveland is poised for great things. lets fasten our seat belts, and enjoy the ride. with the ability for Hopkins to tkae more flights and possibly add more international flights, it would make Cleveland an international destination. We have many assets that the city can market to the world, so I hope that the region joins together to better market this city.

Columbus could get All Nippon or JAL airlines, because of the Honda plant. Maybe an African-based airline (South African Airways) because Columbus has a significant number of Somalians and Africans and Columbus could get Lufthansa, since we do have a large German population, or maybe El Al, because we have Wexner, the Wasserstroms, and the Schottensteins. Hopefully soon, Columbus will be able to offer these services!

 

Anyways, how does a country, like the UK, Germany, France, Japan, etc. determine if they want to open a consulate in a city?

Interesting that you mention consulates, which are often an indication of the extent of commerce and travel between the city hosting the consulate and the country locating one there. According to the Development Alliance, there are 19 consulates and honorary consulates in Cleveland --

 

Belgium

Croatia

Denmark

Dominican Republic

France

Germany

Guinea

Hungary

Italy

Latvia

Lithuania

Luxembourg

The Netherlands

Norway

Slovakia

Slovenia

Romania

Sweden

Switzerland

 

However, only one is a full-time consulate:  Consulate General of the Republic of Croatia

 

There are three foreign chambers of commerce having offices in Cleveland:

French American Chamber of Commerce

Ohio-Israel Chamber of Commerce

British American Chamber of Commerce

 

Plus, there are 28 fraternal organizations in Cleveland specifically representing 25 different countries. That list is available at: http://www.developmentalliance.com/commdata/Table20.cfm?ID=1

____________________

 

There is also this description from http://www.clevelandgrowth.com/Market_Data/Clusters/KRI/ICE/industry/index.asp ....

 

Cleveland is one of the 10 best cities in the United States for achieving global business success, according to World Trade magazine, which credited Cleveland's transportation, business support, diverse economic base, ethnic ties and commitment.

 

Greater Cleveland's World Trade Center, which opened for business in 1994, links the region to a network of 260 similar centers in 70 countries around the world.

 

An estimated 64,000 Greater Cleveland jobs are tied to exports, and some 1,450 manufacturers are engaged in export.

 

Over 2,000 Cleveland-area companies are engaged in international trade.

 

According to the U.S. Department of Commerce, Ohio was third in the nation in total annual exports, behind only Texas and California.

 

....Just in case you really really wanted to know!

Columbus could get All Nippon or JAL airlines, because of the Honda plant. Maybe an African-based airline (South African Airways) because Columbus has a significant number of Somalians and Africans and Columbus could get Lufthansa, since we do have a large German population, or maybe El Al, because we have Wexner, the Wasserstroms, and the Schottensteins. Hopefully soon, Columbus will be able to offer these services!

 

Anyways, how does a country, like the UK, Germany, France, Japan, etc. determine if they want to open a consulate in a city?

 

This wont happen as columbus isn't tied to a "route network" or "hub".  Nor is the Metropolitan area large enough to support such service.  The service area for Columbus is only about 1/5 the size of Clevelands.  In the "service area" for Hopkins is about around 5.5 million people, which is different from population statistics, dwarfs that of columbus'.  When America West had a "hub" in Columbus the region couldn't support the 49 flights to 15 destinations. 

 

Columbus isn't a leisure travel market.  Cleveland's CCCA wants to attain a goal of 15 million leisure travelers in the next three years.

Wow, this thread just sprouted up yesterday and already the content is incredible!  Some of you guys know a lot about the airline industry and international travel/commerce!  I'm impressed, to say the least. 

 

As several of you have stated, developments like this speak to the strength of Mok as the head of the Hopkins.  We'll have to see if there are other issues at hand and how much these things matter to Frank.

It's a good sign when airlines start coming to your city wanting to add service, rather than your city begging its existing carriers (Continental) to expand.

The latter has been the position we've been in for the last 20 years. Could that be changing? :strong:

CMH,

 

I always wondered about Copa's symbol and how similar it is to Continental's.  I always thought the similarity would be grounds for litigation.  Considering that Continental owns 49%, it now makes sense.

 

I am glad to see that a foreign carrier will be investing in Cleveland.  If I ever were to travel to Mexico City, it would be heart-warming to see Cleveland on the departure/arrival screens.

I'm sure that was at least 51% of the motivation behind their decision... :wink:

Interesting that you mention consulates, which are often an indication of the extent of commerce and travel between the city hosting the consulate and the country locating one there. According to the Development Alliance, there are 19 consulates and honorary consulates in Cleveland --

 

However, only one is a full-time consulate:  Consulate General of the Republic of Croatia

 

 

Actually, Slovenia also has a full-time consulate general, the only other full-time consulate outside of NYC.  I see him at St. Vitus on the weekends.

 

http://www.gov.si/mzz/dkp/vwa/eng/consular_depa.shtml

 

Sorry if I get a bit defensive.  Good news all the same for world trade in Cleveland and further international expansion at Hopkins!

The service area for Columbus is only about 1/5 the size of Clevelands.  In the "service area" for Hopkins is about around 5.5 million people, which is different from population statistics, dwarfs that of columbus'.

 

Given your statistic for Cleveland, Columbus' service area as you put it (called "catchment area" in the industry) is actually larger. The catchment area for CMH is 6.6 million people, and includes all of Southeast Ohio and parts of West Virginia, a healthy 1.1 million people larger than Cleveland.

 

When America West had a "hub" in Columbus the region couldn't support the 49 flights to 15 destinations.

 

Buddy, I WORKED at America West's Columbus hub, and I can tell you that the region definitely supported the flights HP offered from CMH, and I have the passenger boarding totals to prove it. The reason it failed was because of an over-reliance of regional jet equipment coupled by the airline's decision to adopt a more simplified fare structure, similar to Southwest, that capped fares at a certain level. For example, walk-up fares to Toronto before the pricing change on America West were over $1,000, when the fare structure was simplified, the walk-up fare fell to roughly $550. The ONLY reason the Cleveland hub survives with its disproportionately large regional jet presence is because Continental maintains a legacy pricing structure, where the airline chooses to still charge top dollar for walk-up itineraries.

 

Lufthansa

rekindles their previous interest in setting up a cargo operation at CLE, large german population and the number of DaimlerChrysler facilities in the region.

 

Having a large ethnic presence in a city is by no means an airtight justification for international service. If that were the case, New Orleans would have service to Paris on Air France already. Many people of European ethnicity have since lost contact with any family still in the terra mater, so just saying "well, my city has lots of Polish people" doesn't make it an immediate candidate for LOT to consider service. The only air service I can think of that is majorly based off of a city's ethnic makeup is Detroit's service on Royal Jordanian to Aman. However, Detroit also has a significantly larger catchment area than Cleveland, and still supports the service despite being served by Air France, Lufthansa, KLM, British Airways, and Northwest to multiple European destinations.

 

The same goes for all the other carriers being targeted just because a lot of people of _________ descent live in Cleveland.

 

The london service is operating with full planes.

 

Full planes do not mean PROFITABLE planes. If CLE-LGW was a cash cow for Continental, you'd bet they'd be on top of their aircraft schedulers to get an aircraft of larger size into Cleveland. A plane's passenger cabin can fly half full and still make money, it depends on the premium being paid by the passengers on the flight, as well as the cargo being transported in the belly. There are several international routes flown by U.S. airlines where the passengers are merely gravy; it's the cargo being transported that pays the bills.

 

Continental has about 1/3 the amount of wide body planes as American and United.

 

That is a moot point. Continental European footprint is huge, but a large chunk of it is flown with narrowbody aircraft (757-200s), much like CLE-LGW. Continental Micronesia is also largely supported by a narrowbody fleet. American's transcon, South America, and European network require the larger amount of widebody aircraft, likewise for United and their large Asian network.

 

But besides the point, I applaud Cleveland and its various bureaus and chambers for pursuing greater international connectivity. They have apparently set their sights high, which is definitely a good thing. I have no doubt that more international service to Cleveland is warranted, however I certainly would not count on seeing a Varig MD-11 approaching Hopkins on a regular basis any time soon.

^That's surprising.  I would think that Pittsburgh would cover a lot of southeastern Ohio and WV due to its larger airport.

That's surprising.  I would think that Pittsburgh would cover a lot of southeastern Ohio and WV due to its larger airport.

 

Pittsburgh may have the larger airport, but Columbus has always had the lowest fares, which is key to the expanse of the area you are going to attract. In fact, for the longest time, people drove from Pittsburgh to Columbus to save hundreds on airfare. Since America West closed the CMH hub and Southwest entered Pittsburgh, that really doesn't happen as much anymore. Another key to an airport's catchment area is the connectivity of the airport to the region. Columbus is far better connected to places like Athens, Parkersburg and Huntington, WV, and Zanesville, than they are to Pittsburgh.

isnt this thread about cleveland...? 

First of...not to ruffle anyones feathers, but this is about Cleveland and I'm giving the information I was given.

 

Lufthansa came to Cleveland...So obviously they felt the Cleveland to (either) Dusseldorf/Berlin/Frankfurt/Berlin market could be supported

 

In regards to the London Flight.  This is the problem where Mok went after Continental in regards to their Fleet managment.  the International 757 and the 767 are almost the same size.  CO can't shift more aircraft, as they are using the 757 for all new international service and puttin the 737s on TransCon routes.  They just don't have the planes

 

Buddy, I WORKED at America West's Columbus hub, and I can tell you that the region definitely supported the flights HP offered from CMH, and I have the passenger boarding totals to prove it. The reason it failed was because of an over-reliance of regional jet equipment coupled by the airline's decision to adopt a more simplified fare structure, similar to Southwest, that capped fares at a certain level. For example, walk-up fares to Toronto before the pricing change on America West were over $1,000, when the fare structure was simplified, the walk-up fare fell to roughly $550. The ONLY reason the Cleveland hub survives with its disproportionately large regional jet presence is because Continental maintains a legacy pricing structure, where the airline chooses to still charge top dollar for walk-up itineraries.

 

 

I'll get back to you on the"catchment area", It appears I translated that information wrong...MY APPOLOGIES.

 

I was curious to find out why the hub closed and call someone I know that is Transportation analyst at MS in Chi, that knows quite about the closure.  This is what I was told:

 

Columbus was a failed hub from the start, HP (America West) did try to build a hub at CMH, but they failed; they significantly overestimated the O/D traffic and were unable to collect enough connecting traffic to compensate.  AW offered virtually no connectivity; had to much competition from Cleveland, Cinci, Chi, St. Louis and Pitts, and does not have a business or leisure market.  She also added, most of the Columbus flights were operated on commuter carriers, one of those signed a deal with Delta and is now still flying some routes.  CMH didn’t fit into long-term plans, so it didn’t make sense to keep it.

 

And here is the press release from America West.

 

America West Eliminates Unprofitable Columbus Hub Operations

Airline To Phase 12 Columbus-Based Regional Jets Out of Fleet

 

PHOENIX, Feb. 10 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- America West Airlines (NYSE: AWA), the nation's second largest low-fare airline, announced today that it is eliminating hub operations in Columbus, Ohio, and, as a result, phasing 12 regional jets out of the America West Express fleet.

 

"The airline industry continues to face very difficult economic conditions, and the outlook for the foreseeable future offers little relief," said Douglas Parker, chairman and chief executive officer. "A necessary and critical component of restoring industry profitability is the elimination of consistently unprofitable flying. While it's clear that the airline industry's hub-and-spoke system is here to stay, it is also clear that we, as an industry, have far too many hubs.

 

"America West simply will not retain unprofitable portions of its operation in hopes that things might one day get better. To that end, we have made the decision to discontinue utilizing Columbus as a hub within the America West network and to concentrate our assets in our stronger hubs in Phoenix and Las Vegas," added Parker. "This is a most difficult decision for us because it impacts our loyal customers, the city of Columbus and, most importantly, our employees. However, as we look ahead it is clear that this is the right decision -- a step we must take to enhance America West's financial position, which will benefit everyone associated with our airline in the long run."

 

While it no longer will be a hub, Columbus will remain an integral part of America West's network as a field station, or destination city. Between early April and mid-June, America West will gradually downsize the hub to a planned four mainline flights per day to Phoenix and Las Vegas. Today, Columbus accounts for 49 daily departures to 15 destinations.

 

"America West established Columbus as part of a strategy to connect passengers within the southern and central United States to East Coast markets," said Scott Kirby, executive vice president, Sales and Marketing. "However, as flights from our primary hubs of Phoenix and Las Vegas grew to major East Coast markets, the value of Columbus as a connecting hub has diminished."

 

According to Kirby, a number of other factors have also changed in recent years. "Due to the large number of regional jets now deployed by many airlines throughout the east, an abundance of capacity exists relative to demand in the markets served by Columbus today. Additionally, Columbus has seen a much larger decline in profitability during this economic downturn than the rest of our system."

 

As a result, he said, despite America West's best efforts to improve financial performance, the airline is incurring losses of approximately $25 million per year from its Columbus hub operations.

 

As part of the downsizing of the hub, beginning April 1 America West will phase 12 Columbus-based regional jets, all of which are currently operated by Chautauqua Airlines under the America West Express banner, out of its fleet. The aircraft, which form the nucleus of America West's hub in Columbus, are scheduled to be fully transitioned out of the fleet by mid-June. All 12 jets will remain with Chautauqua.

 

"Chautauqua Airlines has been a valuable partner to America West in Columbus, and we regret having to end our very close relationship," said Kirby. "As a regional partner to other major airlines, Chautauqua understands the difficulties facing our industry and has been very supportive of our position."

 

About 65 America West employees will remain in Columbus. The remainder of the approximately 400 Columbus-based employees will be offered the opportunity to transfer to other positions within America West. Those who choose not to relocate will receive severance packages.

 

"We take this action with particularly mixed emotions," said Parker. "Our employees in Columbus are outstanding. They've done a great job over the years of building a hub, representing America West in the community and providing wonderful service to our customers. We are hopeful that all of them will remain a part of the America West team. Those choosing not to will be treated fairly and with respect.

 

"Likewise, business and political leaders in Columbus and throughout Ohio have been incredibly supportive of America West. Fortunately for the people of Columbus, America West faced major airline competition on nearly every route that we are discontinuing, so the city will not lose significant non- stop service to any market."

 

With the downsizing of Columbus, America West must eliminate service to New York City LaGuardia Airport because perimeter rules at that airport prohibit flights beyond 1,500 miles. This precludes service from America West's hubs in Phoenix and Las Vegas. However, the airline will continue to serve the New York metropolitan area through both John F. Kennedy and Newark International Airports. With the exception of LaGuardia, no other year-round America West destination will be closed as a result of the elimination of the Columbus hub.

 

In the first quarter of 2003 the company expects to record a pre-tax special charge of approximately $10 to $15 million resulting from the elimination of its Columbus hub operations. The charge is related to the costs to terminate certain contracts, the write-off of leasehold improvements and employee transfer and severance expenses.

 

This press release contains forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 that involve risks and uncertainties that could cause America West's actual results and financial position to differ materially from these statements. The risks and uncertainties include, but are not limited to, the aftermath of the September 11 terrorist attacks and government responses, the resulting negative impacts on revenues due to airport closures and reduced demand for air travel, increased costs due to enhanced security measures and related government directives, the ability of the company to obtain sufficient additional financing if necessary to survive the adverse economic effects following the September 11 attacks, limitations on financing flexibility due to high levels of debt, financial and other covenants in debt instruments and cross default provisions and the potential dilutive impact of the warrants and convertible notes issued in connection with the term loan and related transactions, the cyclical nature of the airline industry, competitive practices in the industry, the impact of changes in fuel prices, relations with unionized employees generally and the impact of the process of negotiation of labor contracts on the company's operations, the outcome of negotiations of collective bargaining agreements and the impact of these agreements on labor costs, the impact of industry regulations and other factors described from time to time in the company's publicly available SEC reports. The company undertakes no obligation to publicly update any forward-looking statement to reflect events or circumstances that may arise after the date of this press release.

 

SOURCE America West Airlines

i thought years ago that alitalia used to have non-stops to italy from cleveland?

 

 

The service area for Columbus is only about 1/5 the size of Clevelands.  In the "service area" for Hopkins is about around 5.5 million people, which is different from population statistics, dwarfs that of columbus'.

 

Given your statistic for Cleveland, Columbus' service area as you put it (called "catchment area" in the industry) is actually larger. The catchment area for CMH is 6.6 million people, and includes all of Southeast Ohio and parts of West Virginia, a healthy 1.1 million people larger than Cleveland.

 

hmm. how many square miles are we talking here? prob at least double.

 

 

isnt this thread about cleveland...? 

First of...not to ruffle anyones feathers, but this is about Cleveland and I'm giving the information I was given.

 

Incorrect information was given. I corrected. Cry me a river.

 

Lufthansa came to Cleveland...So obviously they felt the Cleveland to (either) Dusseldorf/Berlin/Frankfurt/Berlin market could be supported

 

So? British Airways and Lufthansa officials have met with representatives at Port Columbus too. It's their job to pursue all avenues of garnering new air service and to pitch to the airlines that a certain city pair that they believe can be accomplished. This in no way means that such a route is a sure thing.

 

the International 757 and the 767 are almost the same size.

 

But herein lies the problem, which I highlighted in my earlier post, if you would have cared enough to examine it. Continental's international 757-200 is configured to seat 172 passengers. The airline's next smallest transoceanic aircraft, the 767-200, seats 174. Not a big difference, right? Wrong. The 767-200 seats 25 in BusinessFirst, while the 757-200 seats only 16. Therefore, if CO were to place a 762 on the CLE-LGW route, they would have to fill 9 more first class seats. While this may not seem like a lot, like I said earlier, the people up front pay the bills, and obviously the airline can garner much more premium traffic from their Newark hub than from Cleveland. Does this mean CLE will never see a 767-200 or larger to London? Not necessarily, but the city will have to demostrate that it can fill more than 16 BusinessFirst seats to London on a regular basis.

 

CO can't shift more aircraft, as they are using the 757 for all new international service and puttin the 737s on TransCon routes.

 

And WHY are they doing this? Because the head guys in Houston believe they can attain PROFITABILITY on these routes. Like I said earlier, if they believed CLE-LGW was a money maker that needed more capacity, you could bet that the shift would include larger aircraft to the route. It's not rocket science, people.

 

I was curious to find out why the hub closed and call someone I know that is Transportation analyst at MS in Chi, that knows quite about the closure.

 

Neat. I hold a major in Aviation Management. I have worked at 3 different airlines. One of my instructors was the hub manager for America West at CMH. Nice try. I'll disect what was told for you:

 

Columbus was a failed hub from the start, HP (America West) did try to build a hub at CMH, but they failed

 

It was not a failed hub from the start, but America West did fail in making it work for several reasons. Columbus worked in the beginning as a hub for CMH because the plan by then CEO Mike Conway was to use the city as a connector from the West Coast to the East Coast, while providing regional feed with a fleet of B1990s. After Conway, Bill Franke came to head the airline. After discontinuing and starting several routes from CMH, Franke cited an unprofitable express operation in CMH and pulled all regiona flights from the hub, severing feed into the hub. Meanwhile, flights to the East Coast were added from the primary hubs in Phoenix and Las Vegas, overflying the Columbus hub. Efforts continued for several years to maintain the hub, through the use of regional jets, to using a hub and spoke model for its operations. Ultimately, as we know, America West finally gave up on the hub in 2003.

 

they significantly overestimated the O/D traffic and were unable to collect enough connecting traffic to compensate.

 

This may have been the case in the hub's early days, but the later years of its life showed a large amount of both O&D and connecting traffic filtering through the hub.

 

AW offered virtually no connectivity

 

This changed various times, but during my stance with the airline, connectivity was most certainly offered. Any glance at the schedule from CMH would indicate a hub-and-spoke type operation, which means passengers connect in the hub from one flight to another.

 

had to much competition from Cleveland, Cinci, Chi, St. Louis and Pitts,

 

This is very true, the region was "over-hubbed" so to speak. Columbus of course was the weakest of the lot, and was eliminated. But also, St. Louis and Pittsburgh have both seen huge cuts in service due their status as the weakest hub of their respective carriers. While both STL and PIT maintain a large number of flights from their former hub carriers (nearly 200 in both cases), they are by no means as busy as in their formal lives as full-fledged hubs. Even more recently, CVG has seen a large decrease in their number of flights. CLE has not seem these large cuts because, quite frankly, there isn't anything more to cut. Most routes have already been downgraded to regional jets, and there are no widebody flights at all operating from CLE. Of the true hubs remaining in the region, NW at DTW, DL at CVG, UA and AA at ORD, and CO at CLE, the latter remains the smallest, and by quite a significant margin.

 

and does not have a business or leisure market

 

I've always found statements like that to be humorous, especially in regards to leisure traffic. Now, Columbus certainly is not a leisure market in the traditional sense, like Orlando or Las Vegas. But those travelers have to come from somewhere, right? The truth is, many of the passengers that make LAS and MCO huge destination points come from places like Columbus. If this were not the case, Delta wouldn't fly 11 daily flights to Florida from CMH, along with Southwest, and weekend seasonal service by Northwest and USAirways.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that Cleveland is somehow a "leisure destination." If that were the case, I can pretty-much guarantee you the serve level you see at CLE would be vastly different (i.e. all-coach, mainline service twice or thrice a day as opposed to regional jet service multiple times daily).

And saying their is no business market in Columbus is quite frankly prepostrous. With the likes of Cardinal Health, AEP, Wendy's, Nationwide, and Limited Brands calling metro Columbus home, their is quite obviously a large business travel community here. Case in point: NetJets operations in Columbus. In case you weren't aware, NetJets is a fractional ownership corporate jet company, whose main operation base is in Columbus.

 

She also added, most of the Columbus flights were operated on commuter carriers, one of those signed a deal with Delta and is now still flying some routes.

 

Again, if you had bothered to read my first post, you would have seen that I already alluded to this...

The reason it failed was because of an over-reliance of regional jet equipment coupled by the airline's decision to adopt a more simplified fare structure

 

And if Delta's decision to CONTINUE much of the flying that America West once flew does not prove the viability of the Columbus market, I don't know what does. Like I said, the key is that America West adopted a fare structure that made the type of flying done from CMH unprofitable. Delta's fare structure is such that flights operated by regional jets can make money.

 

CMH didn’t fit into long-term plans, so it didn’t make sense to keep it.

 

I agree; CMH didn't fit into America West's long-term plans, but only because the airline did not care enough to make it fit.

 

i thought years ago that alitalia used to have non-stops to italy from cleveland?

 

I don't believe Alitalia ever served Cleveland, however JAT Yugoslavian Airlines did fly to Cleveland at one point in time. I have no idea where the flights went to from CLE, but I remember seeing a placard at departures roadway to the terminal with their name and logo.

 

hmm. how many square miles are we talking here? prob at least double.

 

The square miles covered in regards to an airports' catchment area is really a non-issue. In a way, Denver International Airport's catchement area is the entire state of Colorado. New York City has 3 major airports that share the region's travelers. Catchement area has more to do with the amount of people in a given area that make a certain airport their airport of choice for travel, not square miles.

 

Nice to see that, in this discussion of international flights, diplomacy has been thrown right out the window.

hehehe

While researching information for a Sun column on this subject, I found the following that may be of interest to many of you....

 

From a June 2000 Environmental Impact Statement of the extension of Runway 6R-24L from 9,000 feet to 11,250 feet, by Landrum & Brown Inc.:

 

 

The primary physical airfield constraint inhibiting the development of long-haul transoceanic flights (over 3,500 nautical miles) originating from CLE is insufficient runway length. Due to this physical constraint, airlines wishing to depart on long-haul transoceanic flights must sacrifice payload in order to have enough fuel capacity for the flight. In addition, during the winter and spring seasons, unscheduled fueling stops on long-haul domestic air service (Los Angeles, San Francisco) have occurred due to strong west headwinds. The Master Plan forecast investigated the potential need for transoceanic service at CLE. These forecasts concluded that CLE could support up to four transoceanic international flights, servicing principal European gateways (i.e., London, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Paris).

 

The analysis of runway length requirements determined that a runway length of 11,250 feet is sufficient for a Boeing 767-400ER to depart CLE at 100 percent of maximum take-off weight to London or Paris and at 97 percent of maximum take-off weight to Frankfurt (loss of 3,000 pound of payload). The Boeing 767-400ER is Continental’s replacement aircraft for its DC10-30 aircraft now serving international markets and it is reasonably foreseeable that the Boeing 767-400ER would serve current European markets from Cleveland in the future.2 In addition, a length of 11,250 feet would also be sufficient for passenger service to other European cities or the Pacific Rim using other modern aircraft such as the Boeing 747-400, 777-200, and the McDonnell-Douglas MD-11.

Interesting...I know nothing about Hopkins...is this something that they're working on or is it a pipe dream?

So, it's happening or is still just proposed?  This just says there are plans...

I don't know if construction has started yet, but they do have the funding to carry it out.

 

I suspect I'll have to drive by the site off Ruple Parkway to see for myself.

While researching information for a Sun column on this subject, I found the following that may be of interest to many of you....

 

From a June 2000 Environmental Impact Statement of the extension of Runway 6R-24L from 9,000 feet to 11,250 feet, by Landrum & Brown Inc.:

 

This is old news (well, for me at least).

 

The runway extension/reconfiguration project has been on the books for some years now, and is essentially half complete. The first portion I believe included building a new parallel runway (6L/24R), which is currently 9,000 ft. long. However, I was under the impression that it would be the center parallel (runway 6C/24C) that was to be extended to 11,250 ft. Either way, the plan, forged by then Mayor White, was not to extend the runway to 11,250 ft. until 2014, and as far as I know, the project has been shelved indefinitely.

 

As far as the excerpts given, I would not put a lot of weight on a model forcasted prior to 9/11. Given that this proposal was drawn up 6 years ago, much has changed since then. For example:

 

In addition, during the winter and spring seasons, unscheduled fueling stops on long-haul domestic air service (Los Angeles, San Francisco) have occurred due to strong west headwinds.

This is most likely far less likely to occur now, for two reasons. Prior to the third parallel's construction, Hopkins' longest runway was 7,999 ft. The 9,000 ft. runway, completed in 2004, has most likely aided in giving transcon flights the necessary length to complete their journey without fuel stops. Also, Continental has equiped a good portion of their 737NG fleet (the aircraft that do most of the transcon routes from CLE) with winglets, which reduce drag and decrease fuel consuption on longer haul flights. I'm sure it still happens every once in a while, but my guess is that those occurances have dropped signficantly since then.

 

The Boeing 767-400ER is Continental’s replacement aircraft for its DC10-30 aircraft now serving international markets and it is reasonably foreseeable that the Boeing 767-400ER would serve current European markets from Cleveland in the future.

 

Markets? Currently, it's just one. Also, the 767-400, which Continental has on site and has since replaced all DC-10 aircraft, has been a gigantic flop and production will be phased out in favor of the new 787 line. Given the small fleet of this oddball aircraft that Continental has, I think the aircraft will stay based in Newark. In addition, with 35 BusinessFirst seats, the premium market between Cleveland and London had better grow fast if you want to see a 764 on the route.

I don't know if construction has started yet, but they do have the funding to carry it out.

 

Nope, hasn't started, and won't start until the IX Center is demolished. You figure out when that wil be.

This is old news (well, for me at least).

 

I'm glad you're so proud of that. Let me guess, you have a picture of yourself in your wallet with some lip-shaped smudge marks on it....

 

The IX Center isn't in the way of this runway extension project.

FYI....

 

First, the new 6L-24R 7,000-foot runway that was added in 2002 and extended to 9,000 feet in 2004 (with the old 6L-24R becoming 6C-24C and used as a taxiway/emergency runway):

 

 

Now, an overview of the airfield from 2003 or 2004, showing the construction work on the extension of 6L-24R and the space available for the extension of 6R-24L to 11,250 feet. Nothing physically stands in the way of this extension: