April 27, 201015 yr MD88 - The overflow capacity is constrained by the lack of runways that can be used simultanenously, right? Which CLE is never going to really have, since it is so land-locked. The runways are actually fine. Same as EWR really. What really prohibits CLE growth is the narrow confines on Concourse C. There simply isnt enough room to wharehouse people during connecting banks. Gates have minimal seating as it is. Imagine people needing a place to sit between connections all the while people are arriving and leaving. Plus, Concourse B doesnt really have that many gates compared to other hub airports
April 27, 201015 yr How about the county commissioners offer UA/Continental the Bruer tower for free if they move the HQ to Cleveland. continentals HQ is in Houston. This would be a bigger financial and employment impact on them than us. Chicago and Newark are still over worked airports and Cleveland is only running at 70% capacity. I believe a reliver airport (CLE) would still be needed. One must keep in mind that no airline will or has operated a hub simply to use as a "releiver" for more congested hubs. For whatever business-case reason, CAL operates a hub (tho small) at CLE. The ratio of O&D to connecting passengers at CLE is something like 70/30. One of the reasons that there are few connections at CLE is that the facilities are not large enough to handle a massive influx of people at bank times. To operate a truly large hub, you need either massive O&D (EWR, IAH, ORD) or massive capacity to handle overflow (DTW, CVG, ATL). CLE has neither. If CAL really needs relief over its network, it could simply increase capacity/frequency at any number of airports over its system. Case-in-point: CVG was a massive overflow hub for Delta. It had the facilities to handle large amounts of PAX and planes - both regional and mainline. When the overflow capacity was no longer needed, CVG was and is being downsized to reflect its O&D (considerably less than that of CLE). PIT was pretty much the same. Also, don't forget, CLE is really a two airport town. CAK is only 35 miles away. Understand that. My thought was that EWR and ORD are both conjested. If they merge, I think CLE has a slim chance to still remain a hub. If not we'll join the rest of middle america in becoming a "focus" city.
April 27, 201015 yr How about the county commissioners offer UA/Continental the Bruer tower for free if they move the HQ to Cleveland. continentals HQ is in Houston. This would be a bigger financial and employment impact on them than us. Chicago and Newark are still over worked airports and Cleveland is only running at 70% capacity. I believe a reliver airport (CLE) would still be needed. One must keep in mind that no airline will or has operated a hub simply to use as a "releiver" for more congested hubs. For whatever business-case reason, CAL operates a hub (tho small) at CLE. The ratio of O&D to connecting passengers at CLE is something like 70/30. One of the reasons that there are few connections at CLE is that the facilities are not large enough to handle a massive influx of people at bank times. To operate a truly large hub, you need either massive O&D (EWR, IAH, ORD) or massive capacity to handle overflow (DTW, CVG, ATL). CLE has neither. If CAL really needs relief over its network, it could simply increase capacity/frequency at any number of airports over its system. Case-in-point: CVG was a massive overflow hub for Delta. It had the facilities to handle large amounts of PAX and planes - both regional and mainline. When the overflow capacity was no longer needed, CVG was and is being downsized to reflect its O&D (considerably less than that of CLE). PIT was pretty much the same. Also, don't forget, CLE is really a two airport town. CAK is only 35 miles away. Understand that. My thought was that EWR and ORD are both conjested. If they merge, I think CLE has a slim chance to still remain a hub. If not we'll join the rest of middle america in becoming a "focus" city. IF CLE remains a hub it will be because there is a business case to justify its existance. As I've said before, CLE's pax numbers are already heavily weighted to O&D. So the service at CLE is already fairly self sufficient. Yes, I think that CLE will pretty much remain as is provided that the yields are there. As I wrote before, the shrinkage of CVG and the demise of PIT were largly due to the fact that their O&D's never justified the level of service that they enjoyed. CVG's redemption was its yield. The highest airfares in the country. That allowed Delta to build a massive overflow hub. Once DTW and MEM were incorporated in the mix, the overflow became redundant.
April 30, 201015 yr The 3 hour tarmac rule helps CLE in a CO/UA merger. EWR and ORD (even with the new runway) are too constrained. Even though IAD has excess capacity, it's constrained due to overhead traffic from Charlotte and Atlanta heading over DC airspace along with its proximity to the New York and the other DC airports. Even though there's a lot of overhead flow from NY airports to Chicago airports over Cleveland airspace, it's not to the scale of the flows along the East Coast. There are very few metering initiavies in CLE compared to IAD. Many of those people on airliners.net don't realize it's more than just having open gates and pretty ground facilites when deciding who stays and goes, it's ATC flows as well. That being said, it'll still be based on profitability. I think it stays...although the trans-Atlantic international service will be over for the medium-term.
April 30, 201015 yr The Wall St. Journal is reporting that the UA/CO deal is going to be announced on Monday. Let the fare hikes begin!
April 30, 201015 yr The 3 hour tarmac rule helps CLE in a CO/UA merger. EWR and ORD (even with the new runway) are too constrained. Even though IAD has excess capacity, it's constrained due to overhead traffic from Charlotte and Atlanta heading over DC airspace along with its proximity to the New York and the other DC airports. Even though there's a lot of overhead flow from NY airports to Chicago airports over Cleveland airspace, it's not to the scale of the flows along the East Coast. There are very few metering initiavies in CLE compared to IAD. Many of those people on airliners.net don't realize it's more than just having open gates and pretty ground facilites when deciding who stays and goes, it's ATC flows as well. That being said, it'll still be based on profitability. I think it stays...although the trans-Atlantic international service will be over for the medium-term. Actually, the most congested Air Route Traffic Control Center in the US (if not the world) is Cleveland. There are 21 such Centers in the US. Cleveland Center is located in Oberlin. These Centers handle all IFR traffic and all traffic at altitudes greater than 10,000 ft.
April 30, 201015 yr Ho hum...I'll still be flying Southwest regardless of what happens with Continental...
April 30, 201015 yr I don't want to connect. I hate ORD. I want to be able to fly from CLE to any destination without a connection. If we lose our HUB jobs and travel/tourism at the regional level will be severely impacted. Especially with two international events, several major and the up and coming Med Mart / convention center. The ripple affect will be felt far and wide.
April 30, 201015 yr The Wall St. Journal is reporting that the UA/CO deal is going to be announced on Monday. Let the fare hikes begin! And so, within the near future, we will learn the fate of CLE.
April 30, 201015 yr I don't want to connect. I hate ORD. I want to be able to fly from CLE to any destination without a connection. If we lose our HUB jobs and travel/tourism at the regional level will be severely impacted. Especially with two international events, several major and the up and coming Med Mart / convention center. The ripple affect will be felt far and wide. Initially, in order to pass DOJ muster, I don't expect anything negative to happen at CLE. Also, I beleive that Kucinich heads a sub-committe that deals with anti-trust issues. So in the short term it should be business as usual. In the meantime, the new airline will assess its costs and needs. Ultimately, if CLE survives it will be because there is a business case to support it. If CLE is profitable fro CAL presently, then why discard it
April 30, 201015 yr I don't want to connect. I hate ORD. I want to be able to fly from CLE to any destination without a connection. If we lose our HUB jobs and travel/tourism at the regional level will be severely impacted. Especially with two international events, several major and the up and coming Med Mart / convention center. The ripple affect will be felt far and wide. Initially, in order to pass DOJ muster, I don't expect anything negative to happen at CLE. Also, I beleive that Kucinich heads a sub-committe that deals with anti-trust issues. So in the short term it should be business as usual. In the meantime, the new airline will assess its costs and needs. Ultimately, if CLE survives it will be because there is a business case to support it. If CLE is profitable fro CAL presently, then why discard it I agree. HOWEVER, we're talking about the airline industry! LOL Hell you see what happened at American, Delta and USAir when they took over or merged with other domestic airlines.
April 30, 201015 yr I was serious when I suggested that the commisioners offer the Bruer tower for free if UAL/Continental move the combined HQ to Cleveland. Why isn't this a good idea?
April 30, 201015 yr I don't want to connect. I hate ORD. I want to be able to fly from CLE to any destination without a connection. If we lose our HUB jobs and travel/tourism at the regional level will be severely impacted. Especially with two international events, several major and the up and coming Med Mart / convention center. The ripple affect will be felt far and wide. Initially, in order to pass DOJ muster, I don't expect anything negative to happen at CLE. Also, I beleive that Kucinich heads a sub-committe that deals with anti-trust issues. So in the short term it should be business as usual. In the meantime, the new airline will assess its costs and needs. Ultimately, if CLE survives it will be because there is a business case to support it. If CLE is profitable fro CAL presently, then why discard it I agree. HOWEVER, we're talking about the airline industry! LOL Hell you see what happened at American, Delta and USAir when they took over or merged with other domestic airlines. tru that... BUT,,, When DAL took over NWA they didn't close any hubs.. Yes, CVG has been downsized but that's understandable as DAL doesn't need all of the overflow hub capacity contained in ATL, CVG and DTW... all within a short distance of one another. CVG is still a hub. In fact still larger than CLE. But it's been right-sized to fit its O&D. So instead of being 70/30 connection to O&D, its now closer to the opposite. Just like CLE always has been.
April 30, 201015 yr I was serious when I suggested that the commisioners offer the Bruer tower for free if UAL/Continental move the combined HQ to Cleveland. Why isn't this a good idea? Because cleveland is not chicago
April 30, 201015 yr I was serious when I suggested that the commisioners offer the Bruer tower for free if UAL/Continental move the combined HQ to Cleveland. Why isn't this a good idea? Because cleveland is not chicago Nor Houston and we are not at the bargaining table. They didn't say they wanted their combinded HQ in a nuetral location and for all the logical reasons, with all the ancillary business intrenched in those two cities, it would be hard to look at another location for an new HQ. Chicago just went to battle to have the United HQ move to Downtown CHI from Elk Grove.
April 30, 201015 yr The 3 hour tarmac rule helps CLE in a CO/UA merger. EWR and ORD (even with the new runway) are too constrained. Even though IAD has excess capacity, it's constrained due to overhead traffic from Charlotte and Atlanta heading over DC airspace along with its proximity to the New York and the other DC airports. Even though there's a lot of overhead flow from NY airports to Chicago airports over Cleveland airspace, it's not to the scale of the flows along the East Coast. There are very few metering initiavies in CLE compared to IAD. Many of those people on airliners.net don't realize it's more than just having open gates and pretty ground facilites when deciding who stays and goes, it's ATC flows as well. That being said, it'll still be based on profitability. I think it stays...although the trans-Atlantic international service will be over for the medium-term. Actually, the most congested Air Route Traffic Control Center in the US (if not the world) is Cleveland. There are 21 such Centers in the US. Cleveland Center is located in Oberlin. These Centers handle all IFR traffic and all traffic at altitudes greater than 10,000 ft. Last time I was at ZDC (Washington Center), last fall, they said ZOB's (Cleveland Center) congestion has decreased by 25% over the last two years and the controllers over there were begging for more traffic. Again, these are the controllers talking, not me. They added that ZDC's numbers were running about the same. Either way, ZOB again is mostly overhead flow from ZDC, ZNY, ZAU (Chicago). Places like ZDC handle initating traffic to and from three large sized airports + flow from ZTL (Atlanta), ZJX (Jacksonville). They also have to coordinate with ZNY about NY's three major airports, Teterboro, etc. And don't forget PHL! Again, there's metering going on at IAD on sunny days when the United bank is leaving due to traffic. You don't see that at all in Cleveland. I can't believe the Tarmac rule won't be considered in regards to CLE.
May 1, 201015 yr I don't want to connect. I hate ORD. I want to be able to fly from CLE to any destination without a connection. If we lose our HUB jobs and travel/tourism at the regional level will be severely impacted. Especially with two international events, several major and the up and coming Med Mart / convention center. The ripple affect will be felt far and wide. I'm not quite sure the airport hub impact is all that great. Detroit has had a large hub operation that is second only to Chicago in the Midwest for years but it also has had one of the worst economies in the nation of the larger metros for years as well. It's also not a tourist stop either. Still I'd like to see the mini-hub stay.
May 1, 201015 yr I don't want to connect. I hate ORD. I want to be able to fly from CLE to any destination without a connection. If we lose our HUB jobs and travel/tourism at the regional level will be severely impacted. Especially with two international events, several major and the up and coming Med Mart / convention center. The ripple affect will be felt far and wide. I'm not quite sure the airport hub impact is all that great. Detroit has had a large hub operation that is second only to Chicago in the Midwest for years but it also has had one of the worst economies in the nation of the larger metros for years as well. It's also not a tourist stop either. Still I'd like to see the mini-hub stay. It's connections. NW ran about 60% of their flights via DTW. It's not a "destination" but they've got entrenched high volume TransPac flights and when they rebuilt the terminals, it made the airport much more efficient. I had a report about DTW(NW), DFW (AA) and JFK (B6) O&D stats and how the airlines schedule flights to offset low O&D. IIRC, NW (pre merger) carried the majority of all US depart Transpacific flights.
May 1, 201015 yr When the decision on CLE is made, the PD will actually have something definitive to report. There has been at least one more non-article since my last non-post, lol. Don't worry though, Dennis K. and Frank J. are on the job, sigh. :laugh:
May 3, 201015 yr I don't want to connect. I hate ORD. I want to be able to fly from CLE to any destination without a connection. If we lose our HUB jobs and travel/tourism at the regional level will be severely impacted. Especially with two international events, several major and the up and coming Med Mart / convention center. The ripple affect will be felt far and wide. I'm not quite sure the airport hub impact is all that great. Detroit has had a large hub operation that is second only to Chicago in the Midwest for years but it also has had one of the worst economies in the nation of the larger metros for years as well. It's also not a tourist stop either. Still I'd like to see the mini-hub stay. It's connections. NW ran about 60% of their flights via DTW. It's not a "destination" but they've got entrenched high volume TransPac flights and when they rebuilt the terminals, it made the airport much more efficient. I had a report about DTW(NW), DFW (AA) and JFK (B6) O&D stats and how the airlines schedule flights to offset low O&D. IIRC, NW (pre merger) carried the majority of all US depart Transpacific flights. As I've written before,,,, DTW, ATL, CVG, PIT, etc, are (pr were) "overflow hubs". To make an overflow (primary existance is to provide connections - with some premium O&D demand) hub work, you need it to be a massive fortress hub. Hence CVG's 600+ flights a day at its peak back in the day. CVG's O&D would never justify such an operation on its own and that's why its been scaled back to its present size. Still a hub, just oriented to O&D and yield. CLE ALWAYS was an O&D hub.
May 3, 201015 yr When the decision on CLE is made, the PD will actually have something definitive to report. There has been at least one more non-article since my last non-post, lol. Don't worry though, Dennis K. and Frank J. are on the job, sigh. :laugh: They really aren't non-articles. granted they re-hash a lot of stuff but over all they're not bad
May 3, 201015 yr What is the potential upside of the United Continental merger for CLE? Even if it is not likely, could it be possible it gets more NuUnited business? If NuUnited reduces the number of gates, will Southwest be likely to snatch them up?
May 3, 201015 yr I like what I'm hearing from MD88PILOT. It seems to me that CLE is at a sustainable level of service, hub or not. It will be interesting to see what happens after this merger is approved, but I don't see any signs that CLE will lose a significant number of flights or destinations. Just my opinion though.
May 3, 201015 yr Fox 8 reports that Cleveland will remain a hub. Great news! http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-cleveland-hub-continental-united-merger,0,3852174.story
May 3, 201015 yr Fox 8 reports that Cleveland will remain a hub. Great news! http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-cleveland-hub-continental-united-merger,0,3852174.story Same news from the PD: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/05/continental_and_united_announc.html I wonder where the two new hubs will be located.
May 3, 201015 yr Fox 8 reports that Cleveland will remain a hub. Great news! http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-cleveland-hub-continental-united-merger,0,3852174.story Same news from the PD: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/05/continental_and_united_announc.html I wonder where the two new hubs will be located. Here's what their website says. Not sure which two are new: "The combined airline will have 10 hubs, including hubs in the four largest cities in the U.S., New York/Newark, Los Angeles, Chicago and Houston. The combined company will also have hubs in Cleveland, Denver, Guam, San Francisco, Tokyo and Washington, D.C." http://www.unitedcontinentalmerger.com/benefits/communities
May 3, 201015 yr Huh. Actually, they have nine combined hubs from before the merger. Tokyo would be added as a new hub.
May 3, 201015 yr Fox 8 reports that Cleveland will remain a hub. Great news! http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-cleveland-hub-continental-united-merger,0,3852174.story We know how reliable they are. I would honestly wait until official news comes from United. I dont anticipate changes overnight as they probably had to agree to not close hubs to gain approval. I'm a skeptic. Right now we remain a hub, LTP is what I'm more concerned with. http://www.unitedcontinentalmerger.com/ I hope that United moves to the C concourse and NW to the B. If we do get dehubbed or turned into a focus city. I would hope Smith goes after the LCCs that current do not serve CLE. Fox 8 reports that Cleveland will remain a hub. Great news! http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-cleveland-hub-continental-united-merger,0,3852174.story Same news from the PD: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/05/continental_and_united_announc.html I wonder where the two new hubs will be located. I'm wondering if at least one of these will be international location. Newark/JFK are too close to one another, somethings got to give. Denver and the LAX/San Fran Focus Cities Just like with Delta/NW. Not all of these hubs will survive.
May 3, 201015 yr Fox 8 reports that Cleveland will remain a hub. Great news! http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-cleveland-hub-continental-united-merger,0,3852174.story We know how reliable they are. I would honestly wait until official news comes from United. I dont anticipate changes overnight as they probably had to agree to not close hubs to gain approval. I'm a skeptic. Right now we remain a hub, LTP is what I'm more concerned with. http://www.unitedcontinentalmerger.com/ I hope that United moves to the C concourse and NW to the B. If we do get dehubbed or turned into a focus city. I would hope Smith goes after the LCCs that current do not serve CLE. Fox 8 reports that Cleveland will remain a hub. Great news! http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-cleveland-hub-continental-united-merger,0,3852174.story Same news from the PD: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/05/continental_and_united_announc.html I wonder where the two new hubs will be located. I'm wondering if at least one of these will be international location. Newark/JFK are too close to one another, somethings got to give. Denver and the LAX/San Fran Focus Cities Just like with Delta/NW. Not all of these hubs will survive. Well apparently the City and State are prepared to go th UAL with some incentives.... And again, if the there exists a level of premium O&D in CLE to keep the hub going, then it will remain so. Also, we'll see how much of a bone that Obama's DOJ throws to CLE. Let's see how the loyal Dems in NE ohio are rewarded.
May 3, 201015 yr Fox 8 reports that Cleveland will remain a hub. Great news! http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-cleveland-hub-continental-united-merger,0,3852174.story We know how reliable they are. I would honestly wait until official news comes from United. I dont anticipate changes overnight as they probably had to agree to not close hubs to gain approval. I'm a skeptic. Right now we remain a hub, LTP is what I'm more concerned with. http://www.unitedcontinentalmerger.com/ I hope that United moves to the C concourse and NW to the B. If we do get dehubbed or turned into a focus city. I would hope Smith goes after the LCCs that current do not serve CLE. Fox 8 reports that Cleveland will remain a hub. Great news! http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-cleveland-hub-continental-united-merger,0,3852174.story Same news from the PD: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/05/continental_and_united_announc.html I wonder where the two new hubs will be located. I'm wondering if at least one of these will be international location. Newark/JFK are too close to one another, somethings got to give. Denver and the LAX/San Fran Focus Cities Just like with Delta/NW. Not all of these hubs will survive. Well apparently the City and State are prepared to go th UAL with some incentives.... And again, if the there exists a level of premium O&D in CLE to keep the hub going, then it will remain so. Also, we'll see how much of a bone that Obama's DOJ throws to CLE. Let's see how the loyal Dems in NE ohio are rewarded. Excellent points. Lets hope so. I hate LAX, ORD and IAD in general and even more for connections.
May 3, 201015 yr I see that after the city and state came together to hatch a plan to keep Continental in CLE, and after the new company says it will keep a hub in CLE, Dennis feels the time is right to step up and take credit: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/05/post_277.html
May 3, 201015 yr My bet is Houston kills Denver and Chicago kills Cleveland, at the very least. (Sorry, guys.) It will be interesting to see what happens with JFK/Newark. Newark is, by far, the nicer airport, and more convenient to Manhattan.
May 3, 201015 yr Fox 8 reports that Cleveland will remain a hub. Great news! http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-cleveland-hub-continental-united-merger,0,3852174.story you might want to check out what's happened with CVG. You know the term "RINO"? Well, all the empty promises by Delta have left CVG a HINO!
May 3, 201015 yr With O'hare so crowded, why can't a business case (with appropriate incentives) be made to shift some trans-atlantic traffic to CLE? Especially if the 3-C has a stop at CLE.
May 3, 201015 yr I see that after the city and state came together to hatch a plan to keep Continental in CLE, and after the new company says it will keep a hub in CLE, Dennis feels the time is right to step up and take credit: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/05/post_277.html Yes, for now, but as I said earlier, what is the LTP? Many people have made excellent points about the hub, but we can only speculate. I'm not suggesting the same will happen but the past few mergers promised no hub cuts. Initially there were no changes, then we saw downsizing and shifting of flight. If the hub goes, it will be as disastrous as BP leaving considering Continental is now one of our largest employers.It will severly any hopes of increasing the cities tourism efforts as getting here will be harder. I My bet is Houston kills Denver and Chicago kills Cleveland, at the very least. (Sorry, guys.) It will be interesting to see what happens with JFK/Newark. Newark is, by far, the nicer airport, and more convenient to Manhattan. If anything I see San Fran going away and Denver downsized as the airport is too big for the market. Houston has a large Central American network, something that United needs. Continental is week in Asia and along the West Coast, something United provides. Newark/JFK. There are redundancies and I hope that benefits Cleveland. Move some of that international traffic to CLE. ;) With the merger I dont expect a bump in traffic. With O'hare so crowded, why can't a business case (with appropriate incentives) be made to shift some trans-atlantic traffic to CLE? Especially if the 3-C has a stop at CLE. O&D traffic period and if there is a "need". How many people are departing Cleveland and connecting in other hubs to international flights. More importantly, how many people from overseas, have a final destination of CLE? Our international facilities are small and outdated. That would need to be immediately rectified before discussion of new international destinations takes place. Not sure how what the 3C would have to do or factor in with this.
May 4, 201015 yr CLE needs to build the new FIS NOW—at any cost. (I believe the earlier estimate was $35m—which is nothing for CLE’s general budget.) We cannot allow the new UA to use as an excuse the impossibility of using CLE for any int’l flights because of its inadequate or outdated Customs/Immigration facilities compared to other ports of entry. It gives them even more fuel to downsize the hub two years down the road after all regulatory approvals have been cleared. CLE must be proactive here and not wait for an airline to come along and pay for it. The city must make the city attractive. The money spent will easily come back to the city, but the timing is NOW. Please, everyone, write to Ricky Smith, Jackson, Kucinich, others, and push for this.
May 4, 201015 yr Users on forums I have read have almost universally written off the Hopkins hub, some rather derisively. Its definitely doom, gloom, and scorn with some added sour grapes from people in cities already de-hubbed.....not very encouraging. Of course I can't count the number of times this possibility has come up in the last ten years without happening. One curiosity I have is how local officials could offer anything that would balance out the magnitude of the airline economics involved, in order to keep the hub. If anyone knows, I would love to hear it.
May 4, 201015 yr One thing CLE could do--as alluded to in my post above (Reply 1225)--is to build a great FIS that will allow for the quick INS processing of people entering the city who can make timely connections to ongoing flights--like you have at EWR, ORD, ATL, etc. Asking CO/UA to pay for this at this point, would be a DISincentive to expand--at best--or stay--at worst--at CLE. Thus, as an incentive, CLE should take it upon itself to build a great FIS facility--perhaps under Concourse C. Perhaps as part of this, CLE could get some route guarantee from the new UA, stating, 'we'll build the new FIS and build it now, but you must keep a hub here and provide at least two int'l flights--maybe LHR and FRA'.
May 4, 201015 yr CLE needs to build the new FIS NOW—at any cost. (I believe the earlier estimate was $35m—which is nothing for CLE’s general budget.) We cannot allow the new UA to use as an excuse the impossibility of using CLE for any int’l flights because of its inadequate or outdated Customs/Immigration facilities compared to other ports of entry. It gives them even more fuel to downsize the hub two years down the road after all regulatory approvals have been cleared. CLE must be proactive here and not wait for an airline to come along and pay for it. The city must make the city attractive. The money spent will easily come back to the city, but the timing is NOW. Please, everyone, write to Ricky Smith, Jackson, Kucinich, others, and push for this. The airport has it's own budget. You are aware of that? Its self sustaining and does not use city funds. IIRC, the FIS was closer to 50 million. As a person who uses the airport 3/4 times a week, I will not argue that the city/county/state need to step up and upgrade the airport on all levels. No airport has that kind of money. Which is why airlines have had to build their own terminals. EWR, JFK, CLT come to mind. The port authority in NYC wants to rebuild most of LGA and is going to ask the airlines to build the terminals. The caveat is, the airline industry is not secure and we cannot put all of our eggs in the continental/united basket. We need go after LLC to keep fares down and create competition. until we do that, we're not going to be a true full service international airport.
May 4, 201015 yr One thing CLE could do--as alluded to in my post above (Reply 1225)--is to build a great FIS that will allow for the quick INS processing of people entering the city who can make timely connections to ongoing flights--like you have at EWR, ORD, ATL, etc. Asking CO/UA to pay for this at this point, would be a DISincentive to expand--at best--or stay--at worst--at CLE. Thus, as an incentive, CLE should take it upon itself to build a great FIS facility--perhaps under Concourse C. Perhaps as part of this, CLE could get some route guarantee from the new UA, stating, 'we'll build the new FIS and build it now, but you must keep a hub here and provide at least two int'l flights--maybe LHR and FRA'. They cant build under C. Any FIS facility built has to be used by all carriers. Continental would not build it as they dont have enough international flights to warrant their own facility as in EWR. There was once a plan to build a concourse similar to D just SE of the A concourse for international arrivals. CLE needs to be reconfigured.
May 4, 201015 yr Users on forums I have read have almost universally written off the Hopkins hub, some rather derisively. Its definitely doom, gloom, and scorn with some added sour grapes from people in cities already de-hubbed.....not very encouraging. Of course I can't count the number of times this possibility has come up in the last ten years without happening. One curiosity I have is how local officials could offer anything that would balance out the magnitude of the airline economics involved, in order to keep the hub. If anyone knows, I would love to hear it. Well as has been noted, Smisek is going to met shorly with the Governor, Congressman, Mayor and Senator to discuss the future. As I stated in a post above, I think that the Obama DOJ will meticulously scour this merger and probably see that certain guarantees are in place to keep CLE viable - at least in the short term. But as with any hub, whether it be DEN, IAH, ORD and even EWR, the ultimate survivability test is economies of scale and how to best use assets relative to cost. Don't forget, CAL abandoned DEN back in the early '90's and the city of DEN is supposed to be light years better than CLE (lol). Certainly, if CLE wants service over the pond facilities will have to be dramatically updated - and not the bad-aid approach that seems prevalent here. Facilities don't guaranty a hub but most assuredly lack of facilities will guaranty its failure. I've read posts on CLE on other forums (airliners.net - to which I do not belong) and they've always been negative for years. Keep in mind that alot of the people who post on these forums are quite young and simply parrot what they read elsewhere. "CLE is a declining region". "CLE is too close to ORD". "CAL looses money in CLE". At the end of the day CAL is still here and obvioulsy makes money here. Can the City provide incentives to make it better? Probably! Lastly, don't look to other mergers for an indication as to what will happen at CLE. CVG and PIT were large overflow hubs and in the case of CVG when the overflow was made redundant, it was downsized to a CLE type of hub.
May 4, 201015 yr The airport has it's own budget. You are aware of that? Its self sustaining and does not use city funds. IIRC' date=' the FIS was closer to 50 million....The caveat is, the airline industry is not secure and we cannot put all of our eggs in the continental/united basket. We need go after LLC to keep fares down and create competition. until we do that, we're not going to be a true full service international airport. [/quote'] Yes, I know Port Control has its own budget--thus, when i wrote "CLE" I meant Cleveland Hopkins, and not 'City of Cleveland'. The CO/UA basket is our best bet for the foreseeable future. I understand the value of LCCs in any market, but to be a "true full service international airport" we need a fully functioning FIS that can handle more than one flight a time and we need at least several daily int'l flights (say, some of LHR, CDG, FRA, TLV, MEX, GRU, NRT)--and given the equipment requirements, unless someone puts a 787 Dreamliner in Cleveland, we need more people on each plane than we have O&D locally (to fill, e.g., a 762, 777, etc.)--thus we need the feed and the only way to have feed is to be a hub. JetBlue, VirginAmerica, AirTran/ValueJet, etc. firstly are mostly domestic, and secondly would offer only point-to-point service that could not do daily CLE-foreign city profitably because they--unlike CO--don't have the feed.
May 4, 201015 yr One thing CLE could do--as alluded to in my post above (Reply 1225)--is to build a great FIS that will allow for the quick INS processing of people entering the city who can make timely connections to ongoing flights--like you have at EWR, ORD, ATL, etc. Asking CO/UA to pay for this at this point, would be a DISincentive to expand--at best--or stay--at worst--at CLE. Thus, as an incentive, CLE should take it upon itself to build a great FIS facility--perhaps under Concourse C. Perhaps as part of this, CLE could get some route guarantee from the new UA, stating, 'we'll build the new FIS and build it now, but you must keep a hub here and provide at least two int'l flights--maybe LHR and FRA'. They cant build under C. Any FIS facility built has to be used by all carriers. Continental would not build it as they dont have enough international flights to warrant their own facility as in EWR. There was once a plan to build a concourse similar to D just SE of the A concourse for international arrivals. CLE needs to be reconfigured. There is a large hanger NE of Concourse A. tear down the IX Cener and relocate that hanger(s) to that location. Then build a new Concourse in place of where the hangers used to be. CLE is space constrained so absent a new airport there's not much that can be done
May 4, 201015 yr MD88PILOT--i agree, build a new, world-class terminal/concourse, complete with an FIS somewhere--NE of A or the site of the existing IX Center.
May 4, 201015 yr One thing CLE could do--as alluded to in my post above (Reply 1225)--is to build a great FIS that will allow for the quick INS processing of people entering the city who can make timely connections to ongoing flights--like you have at EWR, ORD, ATL, etc. Asking CO/UA to pay for this at this point, would be a DISincentive to expand--at best--or stay--at worst--at CLE. Thus, as an incentive, CLE should take it upon itself to build a great FIS facility--perhaps under Concourse C. Perhaps as part of this, CLE could get some route guarantee from the new UA, stating, 'we'll build the new FIS and build it now, but you must keep a hub here and provide at least two int'l flights--maybe LHR and FRA'. They cant build under C. Any FIS facility built has to be used by all carriers. Continental would not build it as they dont have enough international flights to warrant their own facility as in EWR. There was once a plan to build a concourse similar to D just SE of the A concourse for international arrivals. CLE needs to be reconfigured. There is a large hanger NE of Concourse A. tear down the IX Cener and relocate that hanger(s) to that location. Then build a new Concourse in place of where the hangers used to be. CLE is space constrained so absent a new airport there's not much that can be done thats the spot im speaking about. Well once the downtown center is built, I HOPE the IX center is closed and that will give the airport an opportunity to expand.
May 4, 201015 yr The airport has it's own budget. You are aware of that? Its self sustaining and does not use city funds. IIRC' date=' the FIS was closer to 50 million....The caveat is, the airline industry is not secure and we cannot put all of our eggs in the continental/united basket. We need go after LLC to keep fares down and create competition. until we do that, we're not going to be a true full service international airport. [/quote'] Yes, I know Port Control has its own budget--thus, when i wrote "CLE" I meant Cleveland Hopkins, and not 'City of Cleveland'. The CO/UA basket is our best bet for the foreseeable future. I understand the value of LCCs in any market, but to be a "true full service international airport" we need a fully functioning FIS that can handle more than one flight a time and we need at least several daily int'l flights (say, some of LHR, CDG, FRA, TLV, MEX, GRU, NRT)--and given the equipment requirements, unless someone puts a 787 Dreamliner in Cleveland, we need more people on each plane than we have O&D locally (to fill, e.g., a 762, 777, etc.)--thus we need the feed and the only way to have feed is to be a hub. JetBlue, VirginAmerica, AirTran/ValueJet, etc. firstly are mostly domestic, and secondly would offer only point-to-point service that could not do daily CLE-foreign city profitably because they--unlike CO--don't have the feed. What we want and what is realistic are two different things. As I said in an earlier post, how many people coming from international cities have CLE as their final stop? Give that this has to go thru approval, EWR/IAD/ORD may have to give up routes, because of lack of competition, and a way to keep foreign airport slots may be to move the flights to CLE, but that a last straw and the FIS would still be an issue. We need the LCC (and I know exactly how they run) to keep prices low and to increase domestic demand into any international service by Continental/United.
May 4, 201015 yr The airport has it's own budget. You are aware of that? Its self sustaining and does not use city funds. IIRC' date=' the FIS was closer to 50 million....The caveat is, the airline industry is not secure and we cannot put all of our eggs in the continental/united basket. We need go after LLC to keep fares down and create competition. until we do that, we're not going to be a true full service international airport. [/quote'] Yes, I know Port Control has its own budget--thus, when i wrote "CLE" I meant Cleveland Hopkins, and not 'City of Cleveland'. The CO/UA basket is our best bet for the foreseeable future. I understand the value of LCCs in any market, but to be a "true full service international airport" we need a fully functioning FIS that can handle more than one flight a time and we need at least several daily int'l flights (say, some of LHR, CDG, FRA, TLV, MEX, GRU, NRT)--and given the equipment requirements, unless someone puts a 787 Dreamliner in Cleveland, we need more people on each plane than we have O&D locally (to fill, e.g., a 762, 777, etc.)--thus we need the feed and the only way to have feed is to be a hub. JetBlue, VirginAmerica, AirTran/ValueJet, etc. firstly are mostly domestic, and secondly would offer only point-to-point service that could not do daily CLE-foreign city profitably because they--unlike CO--don't have the feed. What we want and what is realistic are two different things. As I said in an earlier post, how many people coming from international cities have CLE as their final stop? Give that this has to go thru approval, EWR/IAD/ORD may have to give up routes, because of lack of competition, and a way to keep foreign airport slots may be to move the flights to CLE, but that a last straw and the FIS would still be an issue. We need the LCC (and I know exactly how they run) to keep prices low and to increase domestic demand into any international service by Continental/United. The only way that CLE will get any transatlantic flights in the new UAL is if there is enough LOCAL PREMIUM O&D or if UAL makes CLE a MEGA OVERFLOW HUB. The latter will not happen because of ORD's, EWR's & IAD's relative nearness to CLE. So, my best guess is that there might be a CLE - FRA or LHR flight in the offing provided that that the business community of NE Ohio actually uses it
May 4, 201015 yr The only way that CLE will get any transatlantic flights in the new UAL is if there is enough LOCAL PREMIUM O&D or if UAL makes CLE a MEGA OVERFLOW HUB. The latter will not happen because of ORD's, EWR's & IAD's relative nearness to CLE. So, my best guess is that there might be a CLE - FRA or LHR flight in the offing provided that that the business community of NE Ohio actually uses it 100% agree. I would add TLV to the list. I think we have strong numbers (per my source) for the carribean, but CAL continues to change the schedule which caused people to route via EWR.
May 4, 201015 yr At this point, I'd be impressed if they can get something as simple as clean restrooms right. Even when no one is there...they're still sloppy. Such indicates, to me, sloppiness in running the bigger things. As for the international flights.. I would not use them for business, but for travel/leisure..yes. I would even love having a direct flight to Hawaii from Cleveland.
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