I think you mean a non-stop.  Many people think "direct" and "non-stop" are the same, but they're not.

Delta isn't throught cutting flights out of CVG. We'll see what next winter brings.

 

MTS's concerns are quite valid. History has shown that a small O&D hub can be absorbed by a large one in a merger. There's plenty of capacity on the ground at IAD to absorb CLE's traffic even if EWR/ORD are constrained (3 hour tarmac issues aside). It's going to be a difficult call.

 

That being said, I will parrot the sentiments of others in calling for an increased presence of other carriers at CLE. I certainly think talking to JetBlue is a start. If Southwest sees United start to fade at CLE they may increase service to compete with AirTran in CAK, but I don't think airport officals should see it as the "savior airline" that other places like Pittsburgh, Nashville and St. Louis thought it would be.

Ok....

 

I'm reading some of the posts and I will reiterate some points from my past entries:

 

CLE is NOT what CVG, PIT, STL were or are.  CVG was and still is somewhat of an overflow hub.  In the combined DAL/NWA system, that capacity became redundant.  CVG is still larger than CLE and ill be reduced further but will still be a hub relying more on O&D as CLE ALWAYS HAS.  Yes, CLE has also seen reduced service but its not always because of CLE.  The demand at the out-stations has also declined.  As airtravel recovers so will flights. 

 

Also, CAL is not really a large airline.  It could be argued that it never needed 3 hubs.  Again, despite conventional thought, CLE is still an important city in the scheme of things and CAL certainly knows this.  If the hub were losing money or even marginal, it would have been gone.  The large amount of CAL flights at CLE are there because Clevelanders use them - at sustainable fares.  The lack of mainline flights from CLE should be no mystery.  CAL said two years ago that they were retiring B737-3T0 and not replacing them 1/1 immediately. 

 

Anyway...  I don't think the hub is going anywhere soon. 

 

 

Yes, Continental doesn't have the aircraft numbers of United or American.

 

Which is why Cleveland has lots of frequencies to cities using RJs.

 

That's why Continental uses 737s on trans/mid con flights vs. 757/767s that United or American uses.  or 757's TATL vs. 747/767-2/767-33/777s that United or American uses.

 

Plane allocation/utilization has been a big issue for CLE's growth.

I think you mean a non-stop. Many people think "direct" and "non-stop" are the same, but they're not.

 

Yes, non-stop is what I meant.

Yes, Continental doesn't have the aircraft numbers of United or American.

 

Which is why Cleveland has lots of frequencies to cities using RJs.

 

That's why Continental uses 737s on trans/mid con flights vs. 757/767s that United or American uses. or 757's TATL vs. 747/767-2/767-33/777s that United or American uses.

 

Plane allocation/utilization has been a big issue for CLE's growth.

 

tru..

 

I've flown 767's from LGA to CVG and L-1011's from LGA to ATL...  Well we retired to L-1011's years ago but we certainly don't fly 767's to CVG anymore

As I said in an earlier post' date=' how many people coming from international cities have CLE as their final stop?[/quote'] You must clear immigration at your first port of entry into the US--so it doesn't matter where your final destination is (whether in the US or a 3rd country), if you're landing in CLE as your first US stop, you must clear INS in CLE.

 

What we want and what is realistic are two different things.

 

Building a better FIS is not unrealistic--particularly if it will make a difference between reducing or growing the hub. Change can bring opportunity. But we must guide this change to make it benefit Cleveland. If building a new FIS at "C" is impractical, and a new terminal/concourse is the way to go (which I know would be costly), then perhaps spending a few dollars right now to somehow spruce up the existing one would be the answer. (Not sure if this possible as I don't know the specifics of the constraints. Haven't been in it in 18 years!)

Etheostoma Caeruleum (& rockandroller):

 

You can take UA's 747 to HNL. "Only United has a direct flight to Hawaii" (Direct, though not non-stop--HNL via ORD). Actually, two--a 747 to HNL daily and a DC-8 to Hilo 4x/week. Oh, wait a minute, this ad from the PD is from '76. Cool ad from the past:

 

http://www.opshots.net/gallery2/index.php?page=photos&id=2234

 

While we don't know the future of CVG yet, STL and PIT were not utilized as O&D hubs once the cuts came, they were dropped to "almost spoke" status. And to be honest about CVG, hubs the size of Cincinnati usually aren't dropped in one year. I don't think anyone is trying to be negative, they're just being realisitic about this issue. There's a chance, with the proximity of ORD/EWR/IAD, that CLE could be dropped. All we have is history and history shows that big O&D hubs have been swallowing smaller ones for quite some time now.

 

That being said, it seems to me that CLE makes money. It still exists after the worst decade in the airline industry has passed. The bigger questions still remain though: Does it make enough to fit in the new UAL? Would it be easier to move the operation elsewhere to reduce operational redundancies? I don't know and I don't think anyone on this board does. That's an internal company question that will have to be worked out.

 

As I said, I think it stays, especially with the constraints that ORD and EWR have. Either way, it would be prudent for The Port to start shopping for other airlines now until there is some clarity about this situation. If CAL stays and CLE still lands a small JetBlue operation, it's a win-win.

As I said in an earlier post' date=' how many people coming from international cities have CLE as their final stop?[/quote'] You must clear immigration at your first port of entry into the US--so it doesn't matter where your final destination is (whether in the US or a 3rd country), if you're landing in CLE as your first US stop, you must clear INS in CLE.

 

Pay attention.  I'm not talking about immigration.  I'm talking about PASSENGER traffic/loads.  How many international passengers have a final destination of CLE?

 

That information, along with number of people in the airline/airports catchment area that fly to "X" international destinations is what makes an airline consider offering a non stop.

 

IIRC from my people at teh airport people from CLE fly to YYZ, TLV, CDG, AMS the most.  AMS im sure is due to the long standing NW/CO relationship.

 

While we don't know the future of CVG yet, STL and PIT were not utilized as O&D hubs once the cuts came, they were dropped to "almost spoke" status. And to be honest about CVG, hubs the size of Cincinnati usually aren't dropped in one year. I don't think anyone is trying to be negative, they're just being realisitic about this issue. There's a chance, with the proximity of ORD/EWR/IAD, that CLE could be dropped. All we have is history and history shows that big O&D hubs have been swallowing smaller ones for quite some time now.

 

That being said, it seems to me that CLE makes money. It still exists after the worst decade in the airline industry has passed. The bigger questions still remain though: Does it make enough to fit in the new UAL? Would it be easier to move the operation elsewhere to reduce operational redundancies? I don't know and I don't think anyone on this board does. That's an internal company question that will have to be worked out.

 

As I said, I think it stays, especially with the constraints that ORD and EWR have. Either way, it would be prudent for The Port to start shopping for other airlines now until there is some clarity about this situation. If CAL stays and CLE still lands a small JetBlue operation, it's a win-win.

 

The port?  The port has nothing to do with CLE.  Although I agree with everything else you say.

As I said in an earlier post' date=' how many people coming from international cities have CLE as their final stop?[/quote'] You must clear immigration at your first port of entry into the US--so it doesn't matter where your final destination is (whether in the US or a 3rd country), if you're landing in CLE as your first US stop, you must clear INS in CLE.

 

Pay attention. I'm not talking about immigration. I'm talking about PASSENGER traffic/loads. How many international passengers have a final destination of CLE?

 

That information, along with number of people in the airline/airports catchment area that fly to "X" international destinations is what makes an airline consider offering a non stop.

 

IIRC from my people at teh airport people from CLE fly to YYZ, TLV, CDG, AMS the most. AMS im sure is due to the long standing NW/CO relationship.

 

While we don't know the future of CVG yet, STL and PIT were not utilized as O&D hubs once the cuts came, they were dropped to "almost spoke" status. And to be honest about CVG, hubs the size of Cincinnati usually aren't dropped in one year. I don't think anyone is trying to be negative, they're just being realisitic about this issue. There's a chance, with the proximity of ORD/EWR/IAD, that CLE could be dropped. All we have is history and history shows that big O&D hubs have been swallowing smaller ones for quite some time now.

 

That being said, it seems to me that CLE makes money. It still exists after the worst decade in the airline industry has passed. The bigger questions still remain though: Does it make enough to fit in the new UAL? Would it be easier to move the operation elsewhere to reduce operational redundancies? I don't know and I don't think anyone on this board does. That's an internal company question that will have to be worked out.

 

As I said, I think it stays, especially with the constraints that ORD and EWR have. Either way, it would be prudent for The Port to start shopping for other airlines now until there is some clarity about this situation. If CAL stays and CLE still lands a small JetBlue operation, it's a win-win.

 

The port? The port has nothing to do with CLE. Although I agree with everything else you say.

 

I've got NY on my mind today. My bad.

I've got NY on my mind today. My bad.

 

It's cool  ;D

 

What we want and what is realistic are two different things. As I said in an earlier post, how many people coming from international cities have CLE as their final stop? Give that this has to go thru approval, EWR/IAD/ORD may have to give up routes, because of lack of competition, and a way to keep foreign airport slots may be to move the flights to CLE, but that a last straw and the FIS would still be an issue.

 

We need the LCC (and I know exactly how they run) to keep prices low and to increase domestic demand into any international service by Continental/United.

 

With the Open Skies agreement, what is the possibility of attracting foreign carriers to CLE to provide international flights here? Might it be merely a question of offering a better FIS facility (assuming UAL/CAL keeps a mini-hub here so international passengers can make connections)? If so, and if our local Congressfolk really want to keep a mini-hub here, why not seek federal funds for a decent FIS facility?

 

What we want and what is realistic are two different things. As I said in an earlier post, how many people coming from international cities have CLE as their final stop? Give that this has to go thru approval, EWR/IAD/ORD may have to give up routes, because of lack of competition, and a way to keep foreign airport slots may be to move the flights to CLE, but that a last straw and the FIS would still be an issue.

 

We need the LCC (and I know exactly how they run) to keep prices low and to increase domestic demand into any international service by Continental/United.

 

With the Open Skies agreement, what is the possibility of attracting foreign carriers to CLE to provide international flights here? Might it be merely a question of offering a better FIS facility (assuming UAL/CAL keeps a mini-hub here so international passengers can make connections)? If so, and if our local Congressfolk really want to keep a mini-hub here, why not seek federal funds for a decent FIS facility?

 

I think there already was funding.  Remember whern CAL announced the expansion here back in the winter of 2007, the State ponyed up $50MM in incentives.  Then when CAL scaled back on the expansion, the City and State didn't go ahead with the FIS because of no demand.  And this where the shortsightedness took place.  The FIS should have been built.  At some time or another gambles must take place.  Now, as a hub in the network of the worlds largest carrier, CLE has no FIS!

 

As far as a foriegn carrier is concerned, LH would be the most logical.  But they already fly to DTW (I think).  Whatever the foreign carrier, it would most likely be Star Alliance to take advantage of the built-in CAL feed and O&D from CLE.

 

Also, please stop using the term mini-hub.  There is no such real term.  A hub is a hub is a hub.  CAL will NOT offer Int'l flights from CLE simply for connecting passengers because CLE is not an overflow hub.  That's why our previous LGW/LHR service was on 757's.  It was primarily O&D and the 16 first class seats were easier to fill/sell at premuim prices in this market than the 24 on a 767.

 

What we want and what is realistic are two different things.  As I said in an earlier post, how many people coming from international cities have CLE as their final stop?  Give that this has to go thru approval, EWR/IAD/ORD may have to give up routes, because of lack of competition, and a way to keep foreign airport slots may be to move the flights to CLE, but that a last straw and the FIS would still be an issue.

 

We need the LCC (and I know exactly how they run) to keep prices low and to increase domestic demand into any international service by Continental/United.

 

With the Open Skies agreement, what is the possibility of attracting foreign carriers to CLE to provide international flights here? Might it be merely a question of offering a better FIS facility (assuming UAL/CAL keeps a mini-hub here so international passengers can make connections)? If so, and if our local Congressfolk really want to keep a mini-hub here, why not seek federal funds for a decent FIS facility?

 

I can't honestly answer that, but on a point-to-point international route, I do know that they need to sell a fair amount of premium (ie 85% percent of the first class) seats available on that route to be profitable. 

 

The better question is, "can the market support that without any federal/state/city subsidies"?

 

I think we do need to seek federal/state funds for a new international terminal.

I think there already was funding.  Remember whern CAL announced the expansion here back in the winter of 2007, the State ponyed up $50MM in incentives.  Then when CAL scaled back on the expansion, the City and State didn't go ahead with the FIS because of no demand.  [glow=red,2,300]And this where the shortsightedness took place. [/glow] The FIS should have been built.  At some time or another gambles must take place.  Now, as a hub in the network of the worlds largest carrier, CLE has no FIS!

 

As far as a foriegn carrier is concerned, LH would be the most logical.  But they already fly to DTW (I think).  Whatever the foreign carrier, it would most likely be Star Alliance to take advantage of the built-in CAL feed and O&D from CLE.

 

Also, please stop using the term mini-hub.  There is no such real term.  A hub is a hub is a hub.  CAL will NOT offer Int'l flights from CLE simply for connecting passengers because CLE is not an overflow hub.  That's why our previous LGW/LHR service was on 757's.  It was primarily O&D and the 16 first class seats were easier to fill/sell at premuim prices in this market than the 24 on a 767.

 

Agreed.

 

Lufthansa flies to DTW and a few other non Star Alliance cities such as Boston, Orlando & Miami.  Which means those cities have premium O&D to support the flights.

I'd forgotten that state incentive package of $50 million! If I recall it was through the Ohio Department of Development -- I wonder if the money still exists or has been redirected to other purposes. Probably the latter given the state's financial problems, but it would be good to know for certain.

 

I was mentioning the Open Skies agreement to my sister. We often fly CO to Europe but last winter I took LH for three of my six flights to/from Warsaw. I liked LH very much. She asked me if LH might be a possibility to come to CLE. I hope so!

 

I used mini-hub because I don't like the term a friend of mine at Positively Cleveland uses -- "hublet." So take your pick: mini-hub or hublet. :)

I'd forgotten that state incentive package of $50 million! If I recall it was through the Ohio Department of Development -- I wonder if the money still exists or has been redirected to other purposes. Probably the latter given the state's financial problems, but it would be good to know for certain.

 

I was mentioning the Open Skies agreement to my sister. We often fly CO to Europe but last winter I took LH for three of my four flights to/from Warsaw. I liked LH very much. She asked me if LH might be a possibility to come to CLE. I hope so!

 

I used mini-hub because I don't like the term a friend of mine at Positively Cleveland uses -- "hublet." So take your pick: mini-hub or hublet. :)

 

Just use Hub Mr. Man!  :whip:

 

I do hope Smith starts looking at other airlines. In addition, I would also ask airlines from A/C to move north.  We need those "young" "hip" airlines here.  not just legacy carriers.  Most of thoese airlines dont have a interior hub or focus city and we need to provide that.

 

 

^^JetBlue had looked at entering CLE, CVG and CAK before 9/11. There's plenty of space on the A concourse to start a small multi-city operation, this is especially true with most FIS flights gone.  Maybe it would draw SW out of their limited ops on the B concourse as well. 

 

Let's be fair, there is no such official term as an overflow hub, or one of the mega kind either.

 

Then again to be honest, who cares? I'd take pride in the existing sustainable small hub in CLE even if people call it hublet or mini-hub. It's better than hub gone spoke, like in STL, PIT, possibly CVG, etc.!

Actually "overflow" hub is seen in the literature.  Besides being a 767 driver I have a masters degree in economics and have done yield management for a certain line back in the day, but i digress....

 

One reason i don't think you see  the LCC's at CLE is because the fares at CLE are already fairly low.  CAL doesn't control CLE fares the way that Delta does at CVG because CAL only has aprox. 65% market share.  That's large but not large enough to control the pricing.  Now because of this you get the network and frequent flier perks of a large legacy that the LCC's can't match for the aprox price of an LCC.  So when Virgin America or jetBlue looks at CLE they see the CAL presence at fares already approaching theirs.  I've checked and many times Southwest is more expensive than CAL.  There's also price elasticity of the cosumer to take in to account.  LCC's may be cheaper, but then again, so is their product.  Granted that a seat is a seat is a seat, but what happens when your flight is cancelled and the LCC doesn't have interline agreement with anyone? This is one major reason why Frontier and Airtran are at CAK.  Price elasticites are higher and there's no real legacy competition,,, just their "connection" carriers.

http://www.faa.gov/news/conferences_events/aviation_forecast_2007/agenda_presentation/media/6-%20David%20Johnson.pdf

 

Check slide 8 from this 2007 United presentation.

 

"Mini hub" is used throughout the industry. I can come up with 1000 more examples.

 

Nobody is making the term up.

 

I'm sure "mega overflow hub" is out there somewhere too.

 

^^JetBlue had looked at entering CLE, CVG and CAK before 9/11. There's plenty of space on the A concourse to start a small multi-city operation, this is especially true with most FIS flights gone.  Maybe it would draw SW out of their limited ops on the B concourse as well. 

 

Let's be fair, there is no such official term as an overflow hub, or one of the mega kind either.

 

Then again to be honest, who cares? I'd take pride in the existing sustainable small hub in CLE even if people call it hublet or mini-hub. It's better than hub gone spoke, like in STL, PIT, possibly CVG, etc.!

 

I dont recall that.  I know they said they were looking at all markets, then went "leisure".  as they emulate SW considering their founder was a SW exec.

 

I think getting Virgin, JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations.  Especially if V or JB open up service to cities were CAL flies RJ. ie Miami

^^JetBlue had looked at entering CLE, CVG and CAK before 9/11. There's plenty of space on the A concourse to start a small multi-city operation, this is especially true with most FIS flights gone. Maybe it would draw SW out of their limited ops on the B concourse as well.

 

Let's be fair, there is no such official term as an overflow hub, or one of the mega kind either.

 

Then again to be honest, who cares? I'd take pride in the existing sustainable small hub in CLE even if people call it hublet or mini-hub. It's better than hub gone spoke, like in STL, PIT, possibly CVG, etc.!

 

I dont recall that. I know they said they were looking at all markets, then went "leisure". as they emulate SW considering their founder was a SW exec.

 

I think getting Virgin, JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations. Especially if V or JB open up service to cities were CAL flies RJ. ie Miami

 

Virgin Atlantic already has some strange codeshare partnership with Continental.  If you look on Virgin's website, CLE is listed as an option served by "them".

^^JetBlue had looked at entering CLE, CVG and CAK before 9/11. There's plenty of space on the A concourse to start a small multi-city operation, this is especially true with most FIS flights gone.  Maybe it would draw SW out of their limited ops on the B concourse as well. 

 

Let's be fair, there is no such official term as an overflow hub, or one of the mega kind either.

 

Then again to be honest, who cares? I'd take pride in the existing sustainable small hub in CLE even if people call it hublet or mini-hub. It's better than hub gone spoke, like in STL, PIT, possibly CVG, etc.!

 

I dont recall that.  I know they said they were looking at all markets, then went "leisure".  as they emulate SW considering their founder was a SW exec.

 

I think getting Virgin, JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations.  Especially if V or JB open up service to cities were CAL flies RJ. ie Miami

 

Virgin Atlantic already has some strange codeshare partnership with Continental.  If you look on Virgin's website, CLE is listed as an option served by "them".

 

Virgin Atlantic and Virgin America are two different company's.  Sorry I should not have assumed everyone knew I meant Virgin America.

^^JetBlue had looked at entering CLE, CVG and CAK before 9/11. There's plenty of space on the A concourse to start a small multi-city operation, this is especially true with most FIS flights gone. Maybe it would draw SW out of their limited ops on the B concourse as well.

 

Let's be fair, there is no such official term as an overflow hub, or one of the mega kind either.

 

Then again to be honest, who cares? I'd take pride in the existing sustainable small hub in CLE even if people call it hublet or mini-hub. It's better than hub gone spoke, like in STL, PIT, possibly CVG, etc.!

 

I dont recall that. I know they said they were looking at all markets, then went "leisure". as they emulate SW considering their founder was a SW exec.

 

I think getting Virgin, JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations. Especially if V or JB open up service to cities were CAL flies RJ. ie Miami

 

Virgin Atlantic already has some strange codeshare partnership with Continental. If you look on Virgin's website, CLE is listed as an option served by "them".

 

Virgin Atlantic and Virgin America are two different company's. Sorry I should not have assumed everyone knew I meant Virgin America.

 

My bad!  Wouldn't mind having Virgin Atlantic here, though!

This is opinion...but here's some more...opinion:

 

http://consumerist.com/2010/05/how-unitedcontinental-will-affect-three-cities.html

 

 

^^JetBlue had looked at entering CLE, CVG and CAK before 9/11. There's plenty of space on the A concourse to start a small multi-city operation, this is especially true with most FIS flights gone.  Maybe it would draw SW out of their limited ops on the B concourse as well. 

 

Let's be fair, there is no such official term as an overflow hub, or one of the mega kind either.

 

Then again to be honest, who cares? I'd take pride in the existing sustainable small hub in CLE even if people call it hublet or mini-hub. It's better than hub gone spoke, like in STL, PIT, possibly CVG, etc.!

 

I dont recall that.  I know they said they were looking at all markets, then went "leisure".  as they emulate SW considering their founder was a SW exec.

 

I think getting Virgin, JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations.  Especially if V or JB open up service to cities were CAL flies RJ. ie Miami

 

Virgin Atlantic already has some strange codeshare partnership with Continental.  If you look on Virgin's website, CLE is listed as an option served by "them".

 

Virgin Atlantic and Virgin America are two different company's.  Sorry I should not have assumed everyone knew I meant Virgin America.

 

My bad!  Wouldn't mind having Virgin Atlantic here, though!

 

Me too.  I love VAtlantic.  Pre 2008, the 747 upstairs is the best way to fly with a massage and a manicure.  Ahhh....the gold days of flying!  LOL!

 

Now I have to fly BA.

Now I have to fly BA.

 

You poor thing!

Now I have to fly BA.

 

You poor thing!

 

First the concorde is cancelled..then the manicure service is cancelled...now BA.  What's next?!  I just hope it's not as bad as killing of Jin and Sun on LOST!  :'(

Now I have to fly BA.

 

You poor thing!

 

First the concorde is cancelled..then the manicure service is cancelled...now BA. What's next?! I just hope it's not as bad as killing of Jin and Sun on LOST! :'(

 

Well you could always try DELTA lol,,,,,

Now I have to fly BA.

 

You poor thing!

 

First the concorde is cancelled..then the manicure service is cancelled...now BA. What's next?! I just hope it's not as bad as killing of Jin and Sun on LOST! :'(

 

Sounds nice!  I've never flown anything but coach.  You could, however, make a $3000 donation to the Mr. and Mrs. Docbroc honeymoon foundation to bump us to first class :-D

Now I have to fly BA.

 

You poor thing!

 

First the concorde is cancelled..then the manicure service is cancelled...now BA.  What's next?!  I just hope it's not as bad as killing of Jin and Sun on LOST!  :'(

 

Well you could always try DELTA lol,,,,,

 

Not internationally.  Nor NYC to LAX.  Which is why I always fly home then fly to my next destination.  I work the "rules".  LOL

 

Now I have to fly BA.

 

You poor thing!

 

First the concorde is cancelled..then the manicure service is cancelled...now BA.  What's next?!  I just hope it's not as bad as killing of Jin and Sun on LOST!  :'(

 

Sounds nice!  I've never flown anything but coach.  You could, however, make a $3000 donation to the Mr. and Mrs. Docbroc honeymoon foundation to bump us to first class ;D

  LMAO!  You're a celebutante!  Don't the airlines know who you are?!  If snooky can ride in first class, certainly you can!

Sounds nice! I've never flown anything but coach. You could, however, make a $3000 donation to the Mr. and Mrs. Docbroc honeymoon foundation to bump us to first class ;D

LMAO! You're a celebutante! Don't the airlines know who you are?! If snooky can ride in first class, certainly you can!

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.  Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled on-topic discussion.

When's the wedding?

 

Damnit, you're dragging me back off topic. Not till next April. And now back to airport talk!

Gah! It's in St.Louis. The wedding is at my parents' church, and the reception is in the Archview Ballroom at the Hilton at the Ballpark downtown.

Virgin Atlantic already has some strange codeshare partnership with Continental.  If you look on Virgin's website' date=' CLE is listed as an option served by "them"[/quote']

 

The arrangement was done to give CO access to the coveted Heathrow, back when only two US and two UK carriers could serve the US-UK market into Heathrow.

 

I think getting Virgin' date=' JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations.[/quote']

 

Any new US LCC airline would likely fly from CLE to where they already have ops/maintenance/staff, etc. Therefore if B6 were to enter CLE, it'd likely be to MCO or JFK, places where we already have service. Frontier to DEN--same thing... VirginAmerica to LAX/SFO/JFK, etc...  A new FOREIGN carrier--like BA, LH, AF, KLM etc--would give us the new destination...

Where is it?

 

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-06-28-wedding-plane_x.htm

 

Couple gets married on airplane

By Erin Tiesman, Quad-City Times

CLINTON, Iowa — Mike Nass and Wendy Forseen were excited to be engaged and started planning right away.

But when Nass wanted to get hitched in a DC-3 airplane, Forseen thought it never would happen.

 

"I told him if he wanted to get married in a plane, he could find one and we would. I didn't think he would really get ahold of one," she said.

 

Sure enough, Nass tracked down a DC-3 airplane from the Prairie Aviation Museum in Bloomington, Ill. For a rental and gas fee, the plane was theirs for their wedding day that took place on a recent Saturday afternoon.

 

 

 

Now that's class... what a wedding should be. 

Virgin Atlantic already has some strange codeshare partnership with Continental.  If you look on Virgin's website' date=' CLE is listed as an option served by "them"[/quote']

 

The arrangement was done to give CO access to the coveted Heathrow, back when only two US and two UK carriers could serve the US-UK market into Heathrow.

 

I think getting Virgin' date=' JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations.[/quote']

 

Any new US LCC airline would likely fly from CLE to where they already have ops/maintenance/staff, etc. Therefore if B6 were to enter CLE, it'd likely be to MCO or JFK, places where we already have service. Frontier to Den's thing... VirginAmerica to LAX/SFO/JFK, etc... A new FOREIGN treelike BA, LH, AF, KLM articled give us the new destination...

 

I'm saying entice those carriers to come here and BUILD a hub up.  Not just be a route to a hub.  NOT ONE of those carries has a inland hub.

 

In regard to international carriers, without having access to revenue management information, BA (one world), AF or KLM (skyteam) are not going to come to Cleveland as they are would have little or no departing traffic, rendering an international flight unprofitable. 

 

Those airlines already have/had flights at Newark, JFK, DTW, ORD, IAD and CVG.

 

I personally think, Lufthansa and LOT are our only hope for a new international carrier to enter our market.  The carrier would have to be star alliance to tap into the market of loyal Frequent Flyer's. 

 

My thought is, our only hope to gain year round, international flights is if the DOJ tell UA/CO that they have a monoploy on routes out of EWR, JFK, IAD & LAX and they are damaging competition, in order to make the merger a "go" they must apply to have the departing airport of the routes moved to CLE so they can keep the slots in foreign airports.  However, I bet they'll have to give up slots period.

Virgin Atlantic already has some strange codeshare partnership with Continental. If you look on Virgin's website' date=' CLE is listed as an option served by "them"[/quote']

 

The arrangement was done to give CO access to the coveted Heathrow, back when only two US and two UK carriers could serve the US-UK market into Heathrow.

 

I think getting Virgin' date=' JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations.[/quote']

 

Any new US LCC airline would likely fly from CLE to where they already have ops/maintenance/staff, etc. Therefore if B6 were to enter CLE, it'd likely be to MCO or JFK, places where we already have service. Frontier to Den's thing... VirginAmerica to LAX/SFO/JFK, etc... A new FOREIGN treelike BA, LH, AF, KLM articled give us the new destination...

 

I'm saying entice those carriers to come here and BUILD a hub up. Not just be a route to a hub. NOT ONE of those carries has a inland hub.

 

In regard to international carriers, without having access to revenue management information, BA (one world), AF or KLM (skyteam) are not going to come to Cleveland as they are would have little or no departing traffic, rendering an international flight unprofitable.

 

Those airlines already have/had flights at Newark, JFK, DTW, ORD, IAD and CVG.

 

I personally think, Lufthansa and LOT are our only hope for a new international carrier to enter our market. The carrier would have to be star alliance to tap into the market of loyal Frequent Flyer's.

 

My thought is, our only hope to gain year round, international flights is if the DOJ tell UA/CO that they have a monoploy on routes out of EWR, JFK, IAD & LAX and they are damaging competition, in order to make the merger a "go" they must apply to have the departing airport of the routes moved to CLE so they can keep the slots in foreign airports. However, I bet they'll have to give up slots period.

 

LCC's are not going to come here unless CAL goes away.  CAL is already priced cheaply from CLE due to a faily large presence of SWA.  The only thing that say jetBlue could match is to JFK and without the frequency.  Plus, a couple of LCC's already serve CAK which is close enough to be metro Cleveland.  So the catchment area is already served by 3 LCC's and without the price advantage they enjoy elsewhere.

Virgin Atlantic already has some strange codeshare partnership with Continental.  If you look on Virgin's website' date=' CLE is listed as an option served by "them"[/quote']

 

The arrangement was done to give CO access to the coveted Heathrow, back when only two US and two UK carriers could serve the US-UK market into Heathrow.

 

I think getting Virgin' date=' JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations.[/quote']

 

Any new US LCC airline would likely fly from CLE to where they already have ops/maintenance/staff, etc. Therefore if B6 were to enter CLE, it'd likely be to MCO or JFK, places where we already have service. Frontier to Den's thing... VirginAmerica to LAX/SFO/JFK, etc... A new FOREIGN treelike BA, LH, AF, KLM articled give us the new destination...

 

I'm saying entice those carriers to come here and BUILD a hub up.  Not just be a route to a hub.  NOT ONE of those carries has a inland hub.

 

In regard to international carriers, without having access to revenue management information, BA (one world), AF or KLM (skyteam) are not going to come to Cleveland as they are would have little or no departing traffic, rendering an international flight unprofitable. 

 

Those airlines already have/had flights at Newark, JFK, DTW, ORD, IAD and CVG.

 

I personally think, Lufthansa and LOT are our only hope for a new international carrier to enter our market.  The carrier would have to be star alliance to tap into the market of loyal Frequent Flyer's. 

 

My thought is, our only hope to gain year round, international flights is if the DOJ tell UA/CO that they have a monoploy on routes out of EWR, JFK, IAD & LAX and they are damaging competition, in order to make the merger a "go" they must apply to have the departing airport of the routes moved to CLE so they can keep the slots in foreign airports.  However, I bet they'll have to give up slots period.

 

LCC's are not going to come here unless CAL goes away.  CAL is already priced cheaply from CLE due to a faily large presence of SWA.  The only thing that say jetBlue could match is to JFK and without the frequency.  Plus, a couple of LCC's already serve CAK which is close enough to be metro Cleveland.  So the catchment area is already served by 3 LCC's and without the price advantage they enjoy elsewhere.

 

True, I just thru that out there, but if some airports like BOS, PHL can bring in LCC's right next to their hub carriers we can do something. From what I understand PHL pricing isn't that high.  Perhaps get them to move their one/two round trips from CAK to CLE. Again...just thoughts in my head.

Virgin Atlantic already has some strange codeshare partnership with Continental.  If you look on Virgin's website' date=' CLE is listed as an option served by "them"[/quote']

 

The arrangement was done to give CO access to the coveted Heathrow, back when only two US and two UK carriers could serve the US-UK market into Heathrow.

 

I think getting Virgin' date=' JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations.[/quote']

 

Any new US LCC airline would likely fly from CLE to where they already have ops/maintenance/staff, etc. Therefore if B6 were to enter CLE, it'd likely be to MCO or JFK, places where we already have service. Frontier to Den's thing... VirginAmerica to LAX/SFO/JFK, etc... A new FOREIGN treelike BA, LH, AF, KLM articled give us the new destination...

 

I'm saying entice those carriers to come here and BUILD a hub up.  Not just be a route to a hub.  NOT ONE of those carries has a inland hub.

 

In regard to international carriers, without having access to revenue management information, BA (one world), AF or KLM (skyteam) are not going to come to Cleveland as they are would have little or no departing traffic, rendering an international flight unprofitable. 

 

Those airlines already have/had flights at Newark, JFK, DTW, ORD, IAD and CVG.

 

I personally think, Lufthansa and LOT are our only hope for a new international carrier to enter our market.  The carrier would have to be star alliance to tap into the market of loyal Frequent Flyer's. 

 

My thought is, our only hope to gain year round, international flights is if the DOJ tell UA/CO that they have a monoploy on routes out of EWR, JFK, IAD & LAX and they are damaging competition, in order to make the merger a "go" they must apply to have the departing airport of the routes moved to CLE so they can keep the slots in foreign airports.  However, I bet they'll have to give up slots period.

 

LCC's are not going to come here unless CAL goes away.  CAL is already priced cheaply from CLE due to a faily large presence of SWA.  The only thing that say jetBlue could match is to JFK and without the frequency.  Plus, a couple of LCC's already serve CAK which is close enough to be metro Cleveland.  So the catchment area is already served by 3 LCC's and without the price advantage they enjoy elsewhere.

 

True, I just thru that out there, but if some airports like BOS, PHL can bring in LCC's right next to their hub carriers we can do something. From what I understand PHL pricing isn't that high.  Perhaps get them to move their one/two round trips from CAK to CLE. Again...just thoughts in my head.

 

Don't forget that the main reason jetBlue exists was to provide Upstate New York with affordable fares after the desertion/elimination of the Empire/Piedmont/USAir hub at SYR.  Back in the day ROC, SYR and BUF had DC-10/707 service on AA.  PeoplExpress served many Upstate locales with 737/727's.  I think that jetBlue received alot of State money to start-up and eventually branched out.

Don't forget that the main reason jetBlue exitst was to provide Upstate New York with affordable fares after the desertion/elimination of the Empire/Piedmont/USAir hub at SYR.  back in the day ROC, SYR and BUF had DC-10/707 service on AA.  ProplExpress served many Upstate locales with 737/727's.  I think that jetBlue received alot of State money to start-up and eventually branched out.

 

I totally forgot about that and now they have Lufthansa financial backing.  I think Lufthansa owns ~20% of JetBlue now.

Don't forget that the main reason jetBlue exitst was to provide Upstate New York with affordable fares after the desertion/elimination of the Empire/Piedmont/USAir hub at SYR.  back in the day ROC, SYR and BUF had DC-10/707 service on AA.  ProplExpress served many Upstate locales with 737/727's.  I think that jetBlue received alot of State money to start-up and eventually branched out.

 

I totally forgot about that and now they have Lufthansa financial backing.  I think Lufthansa owns ~20% of JetBlue now.

 

Yes, jetBlue feeds LH at JFK just like Allegheny did PanAm back in th '70s.  For a bit of nostalgia, here are some of the Upstate NY cities that once had mainline jet service:  Niagara Falls, BUF, ROC, SYR, ALB, Plattsburg, Glens Falls, Elmira-Corning and Ithaca.... and almost forgot Utica-Rome

LCC's are not going to come here unless CAL goes away.  CAL is already priced cheaply from CLE due to a faily large presence of SWA.

 

WN carries approx 10% of all passengers at CLE (the largest carrier after CO/CO Express/CO-Connection). WN is considered an LCC, no?

LCC's are not going to come here unless CAL goes away.  CAL is already priced cheaply from CLE due to a faily large presence of SWA.

 

WN carries approx 10% of all passengers at CLE (the largest carrier after CO/CO Express/CO-Connection). WN is considered an LCC, no?

yes WN is a LCC

History shows there's been an LCC interest in Cleveland despite CAL's/SWA's presence:

 

Here's a 2000 release from jetBlue (via Tampa airport) on possible destinations:

 

http://www.tampaairport.com/about/media/press_releases/2000/2000_0309_jetbluetonyc.pdf

 

Every Ohio city with passenger service was looked at by them in the early days, except TOL.

 

Here's a 2007 release from Virgin America:

 

http://www.virginamerica.com/va/press/2007/Jan/First-Six-Destinations.html?title=Virgin+America+Identifies+First+Six+Destinations;+Announces+Further+40+Cities+Under+Consideration.

 

In Ohio, they were mulling CLE and CVG at the time of their start.

 

Independence Air made CLE a spoke to their IAD hub. Of course they supernovaed about as quickly as SkyBust.

Actually "overflow" hub is seen in the literature.  Besides being a 767 driver I have a masters degree in economics and have done yield management for a certain line back in the day, but i digress....

 

One reason i don't think you see  the LCC's at CLE is because the fares at CLE are already fairly low.  CAL doesn't control CLE fares the way that Delta does at CVG because CAL only has aprox. 65% market share.  That's large but not large enough to control the pricing.  Now because of this you get the network and frequent flier perks of a large legacy that the LCC's can't match for the aprox price of an LCC.  So when Virgin America or jetBlue looks at CLE they see the CAL presence at fares already approaching theirs.  I've checked and many times Southwest is more expensive than CAL.  There's also price elasticity of the cosumer to take in to account.  LCC's may be cheaper, but then again, so is their product.  Granted that a seat is a seat is a seat, but what happens when your flight is cancelled and the LCC doesn't have interline agreement with anyone? This is one major reason why Frontier and Airtran are at CAK.  Price elasticites are higher and there's no real legacy competition,,, just their "connection" carriers.

 

You got me beat, I just a scrape roadkill off the highways near IAD. I only act like I know something on this subject cause I stay at a Holiday Inn Express! :)

Virgin Atlantic already has some strange codeshare partnership with Continental.  If you look on Virgin's website' date=' CLE is listed as an option served by "them"[/quote']

 

The arrangement was done to give CO access to the coveted Heathrow, back when only two US and two UK carriers could serve the US-UK market into Heathrow.

 

I think getting Virgin' date=' JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations.[/quote']

 

Any new US LCC airline would likely fly from CLE to where they already have ops/maintenance/staff, etc. Therefore if B6 were to enter CLE, it'd likely be to MCO or JFK, places where we already have service. Frontier to Den's thing... VirginAmerica to LAX/SFO/JFK, etc... A new FOREIGN treelike BA, LH, AF, KLM articled give us the new destination...

 

I'm saying entice those carriers to come here and BUILD a hub up.  Not just be a route to a hub.  NOT ONE of those carries has a inland hub.

 

In regard to international carriers, without having access to revenue management information, BA (one world), AF or KLM (skyteam) are not going to come to Cleveland as they are would have little or no departing traffic, rendering an international flight unprofitable. 

 

Those airlines already have/had flights at Newark, JFK, DTW, ORD, IAD and CVG.

 

I personally think, Lufthansa and LOT are our only hope for a new international carrier to enter our market.  The carrier would have to be star alliance to tap into the market of loyal Frequent Flyer's. 

 

My thought is, our only hope to gain year round, international flights is if the DOJ tell UA/CO that they have a monoploy on routes out of EWR, JFK, IAD & LAX and they are damaging competition, in order to make the merger a "go" they must apply to have the departing airport of the routes moved to CLE so they can keep the slots in foreign airports.  However, I bet they'll have to give up slots period.

 

LCC's are not going to come here unless CAL goes away.  CAL is already priced cheaply from CLE due to a faily large presence of SWA.  The only thing that say jetBlue could match is to JFK and without the frequency.  Plus, a couple of LCC's already serve CAK which is close enough to be metro Cleveland.  So the catchment area is already served by 3 LCC's and without the price advantage they enjoy elsewhere.

 

jetBlue and Virgin America operate in plenty of cities with other LCC's. I still don't get why it would be a bad idea for CLE to go shopping, especially in this environment. CLE seems very concerned about the new UAL. I hope the airport's stategy is more than begging them to stay. The "begging" idea has been done for legacy carriers in Pittsburgh, Baltimore, St. Louis, Nashville, Raliegh-Durham, etc. with poor results.

Virgin Atlantic already has some strange codeshare partnership with Continental.  If you look on Virgin's website' date=' CLE is listed as an option served by "them"[/quote']

 

The arrangement was done to give CO access to the coveted Heathrow, back when only two US and two UK carriers could serve the US-UK market into Heathrow.

 

I think getting Virgin' date=' JetBlue and Frontier in here would do wonders and open up the city to more destinations.[/quote']

 

Any new US LCC airline would likely fly from CLE to where they already have ops/maintenance/staff, etc. Therefore if B6 were to enter CLE, it'd likely be to MCO or JFK, places where we already have service. Frontier to Den's thing... VirginAmerica to LAX/SFO/JFK, etc... A new FOREIGN treelike BA, LH, AF, KLM articled give us the new destination...

 

I'm saying entice those carriers to come here and BUILD a hub up.  Not just be a route to a hub.  NOT ONE of those carries has a inland hub.

 

In regard to international carriers, without having access to revenue management information, BA (one world), AF or KLM (skyteam) are not going to come to Cleveland as they are would have little or no departing traffic, rendering an international flight unprofitable. 

 

Those airlines already have/had flights at Newark, JFK, DTW, ORD, IAD and CVG.

 

I personally think, Lufthansa and LOT are our only hope for a new international carrier to enter our market.  The carrier would have to be star alliance to tap into the market of loyal Frequent Flyer's. 

 

My thought is, our only hope to gain year round, international flights is if the DOJ tell UA/CO that they have a monoploy on routes out of EWR, JFK, IAD & LAX and they are damaging competition, in order to make the merger a "go" they must apply to have the departing airport of the routes moved to CLE so they can keep the slots in foreign airports.  However, I bet they'll have to give up slots period.

 

LCC's are not going to come here unless CAL goes away.  CAL is already priced cheaply from CLE due to a faily large presence of SWA.  The only thing that say jetBlue could match is to JFK and without the frequency.  Plus, a couple of LCC's already serve CAK which is close enough to be metro Cleveland.  So the catchment area is already served by 3 LCC's and without the price advantage they enjoy elsewhere.

 

SWA has a large presence? Even if they're 10% of CLE's traffic they're not serving many destinations. What do they have 6 or 7?