MD88PILOT,  I believe I speak for many here who tune into UO that when we see your post we know it will be written with intelligence, insight and experience behind it.  Thank you.

I fly plenty from CLE and am pleased it's my home airport. It looks a zillion times better than a few years ago, is very busy at peak times (and, yes, empty at others) and its relatively compact size is a plus for getting in and out in a hurry.  A traveler's dream. The new stores and restaurants (Swatch, Crocs, The Pub, Currito, Obryicki's, etc...) look big-city and are very welcome additions.

 

My biggest Hopkins gripe is that cities half our NEO area's size, like Charlotte (which has a major hub and manay international flights) and Indianapolis (more limited , but a major convention city with a new $1B terminal) both have big-ceilinged terminals that look impressive - and cities our same basic 3-4MM size (Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis) have world-class airports with trains and moving walkways and tall ceilings and many more flights options, including international vs CLE.  Tourism plays a part to some of those places, but not all. How did it work out that way? Why did those cities get the breaks and we didn't.

 

Also, airport acccomodations aside, CLE has the worst international flight levels of any big city (none to Europe) - while even Cincinnati - 1MM fewer and with a whole terminal closed recently - hold onto a few key European flights and Charlotte has 5-7 key Europ cities, nonstop. Even PIT has a nonstop to Paris. MSP - same size as NEO - has probably a dozen or more overseas destinations, including Asia. International/overseas flights add prestige... and we ain't got none, so to speak.

 

Also, since UAL and CO have merged, I've noticed nonstop tickets creeping up in cost considerably - with connections through O'Hare, Newark, Dulles, Houston much, much cheaper - not just a little bit cheaper - almost like the new UAL is trying to force everything through ORD to make CLE obsolete. Hate to think that.  But Continental flight from Seattle to Ohare to CLE last night was $500 and Continental flight leaving at nearly the same same time, on same type plane, nonstop to CLE was $1000. Couldn't justify the extra $500, even though on my company's dime, so there's another flight to CLE that somebody wasn't on.

^I think it may have something to do with the size of the Region's base of International Corporate Residents. NEO has a sizable corporate community, but then you have Cincinnati that has larger companies, Macy's, Proctor & Gamble etc.. Charlotte is the second largest banking center in the Country (Bank of America) that have more employees (business travelers) going to places those flights warrant.

I fly plenty from CLE and am pleased it's my home airport. It looks a zillion times better than a few years ago, is very busy at peak times (and, yes, empty at others) and its relatively compact size is a plus for getting in and out in a hurry.  A traveler's dream. The new stores and restaurants (Swatch, Crocs, The Pub, Currito, Obryicki's, etc...) look big-city and are very welcome additions.

 

My biggest Hopkins gripe is that cities half our NEO area's size, like Charlotte (which has a major hub and manay international flights) and Indianapolis (more limited , but a major convention city with a new $1B terminal) both have big-ceilinged terminals that look impressive - and cities our same basic 3-4MM size (Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis) have world-class airports with trains and moving walkways and tall ceilings and many more flights options, including international vs CLE.  Tourism plays a part to some of those places, but not all. How did it work out that way? Why did those cities get the breaks and we didn't.

 

Also, airport acccomodations aside, CLE has the worst international flight levels of any big city (none to Europe) - while even Cincinnati - 1MM fewer and with a whole terminal closed recently - hold onto a few key European flights and Charlotte has 5-7 key Europ cities, nonstop. Even PIT has a nonstop to Paris. MSP - same size as NEO - has probably a dozen or more overseas destinations, including Asia. International/overseas flights add prestige... and we ain't got none, so to speak.

 

Also, since UAL and CO have merged, I've noticed nonstop tickets creeping up in cost considerably - with connections through O'Hare, Newark, Dulles, Houston much, much cheaper - not just a little bit cheaper - almost like the new UAL is trying to force everything through ORD to make CLE obsolete. Hate to think that.  But Continental flight from Seattle to Ohare to CLE last night was $500 and Continental flight leaving at nearly the same same time, on same type plane, nonstop to CLE was $1000. Couldn't justify the extra $500, even though on my company's dime, so there's another flight to CLE that somebody wasn't on.

 

Its not just the size of the market, its also the relationship and position that a given city has with its hub airline.  CAL has a mega hub at EWR.  In the early '90's they built an international arrivals annex on to Terminal C.  This meant that CAL could fly pax into EWR and transfer them to domestic flights with greater efficiency.  In short they have an economy of scale and a comparative advantage at EWR.  CLE is only 468 miles from EWR by air.  While a trans-atlantic flight might be profitible from CLE, its even more profitible to just funnel the CLE thru EWR especially with the amount of premium pax originating in the NY/NJ region to begin with.  CVG's relationship to DAL and ATL is similar though DAL was a much larger airline than CAL even before its merger with NWA so that meant that DAL had more resources nand more pax to spread around

 

As probably the person that uses Hopkins the most on this board.  I've been there 4 times this week alone.  I'd like to Piggy backing on MD88PILOT states

 

 

  I fly plenty from CLE and am pleased it's my home airport. It looks a zillion times better than a few years ago, is very busy at peak times (and, yes, empty at others) and its relatively compact size is a plus for getting in and out in a hurry.  A traveler's dream. The new stores and restaurants (Swatch, Crocs, The Pub, Currito, Obryicki's, etc...) look big-city and are very welcome additions.

 

 

I feel the airport is as busy as it has been in the past. Continental continues to tweek the flight banks, to the bare minimum. On Sunday night, Monday morning, Thursday night, Friday Night or Saturday Morning, the airport is packed.

 

 

There are other hubs – which have LCC – that were so quiet you could hear a mouse piss on a cotton swab.

 

 

My biggest Hopkins gripe is that cities half our NEO area's size, like Charlotte (which has a major hub and manay international flights) and Indianapolis (more limited , but a major convention city with a new $1B terminal) both have big-ceilinged terminals that look impressive - and cities our same basic 3-4MM size (Seattle, Denver, Minneapolis) have world-class airports with trains and moving walkways and tall ceilings and many more flights options, including international vs CLE.  Tourism plays a part to some of those places, but not all. How did it work out that way? Why did those cities get the breaks and we didn't. 

 

 

In this instance we have to look at some other factors beyond market size.  Charlotte is USAir HQ. Minneapolis was NW HQ (pre Delta merger), as a condition of the merger Delta could not severely cut back flights from MPLS.  Although Delta has begun to close out operations in non airport operations.  Indianapolis rebuilt an outdated terminal at their cost, not at the expense of the airlines serving the city.  Denver turned into United rocky mountain hub after Continental left.  United is the primary builder/stakeholder at the airport, but have scaled things back as they have duplicating services at LAX and SFO.

 

 

The problem is when United left Cleveland originally and the city defaulted, the airport suffered and when Continental came in, the airport got a band-aid fixes but not real solutions.  There is suppose to be an international terminal, similar to D where the Big hangar is to the right.  That never materialized, so the plan to reconstruct A was put into place but that has since been put on hold.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, since UAL and CO have merged, I've noticed nonstop tickets creeping up in cost considerably - with connections through O'Hare, Newark, Dulles, Houston much, much cheaper - not just a little bit cheaper - almost like the new UAL is trying to force everything through ORD to make CLE obsolete. Hate to think that.  But Continental flight from Seattle to Ohare to CLE last night was $500 and Continental flight leaving at nearly the same same time, on same type plane, nonstop to CLE was $1000. Couldn't justify the extra $500, even though on my company's dime, so there's another flight to CLE that somebody wasn't on.

 

 

Prices to fly direct from a Hub airport are always more then a connection.  Look at a fare from CLE to XXX then look at a fare from a non hub city to CLE then to XXX it will be significantly cheaper.  Also does you company have negotiated rates, that also plays into the mix.

 

 

Our hub situation has no one answer but many variables.

I don't really fly that often, but to me it seems like CLE doesn't have enough monitors with flight tracking info. 

 

I remember they used to be all over the place.

I don't really fly that often, but to me it seems like CLE doesn't have enough monitors with flight tracking info. 

 

I remember they used to be all over the place.

 

Thats the airlines, not the airport.

I don't really fly that often, but to me it seems like CLE doesn't have enough monitors with flight tracking info. 

 

I remember they used to be all over the place.

 

 

Thats the airlines, not the airport.

 

Really?? Thanks. Maybe it saves them money?

I was at Hopkins on Friday the 10th around noon and it was completely packed.  I was back there on Friday the 17th at 4pm and it was completely packed again.

 

And, despite that we don't have fancy schmancy new concourses with high ceilings and trains, I enjoy spending time at CLE more than other places.  Why you may ask?  BECAUSE I CAN EAT AND DRINK WITHOUT PAYING DOUBLE THE NORMAL PRICE.  You have no idea how much the Airmall concept has made me enjoy my time at CLE.  A hungry/thirsty docta is an unhappy docta.

 

ETA:  Also, CleJoe, you seem to have missed most of the new restaurants.  They're just inside security between the B and C/D concourses.

I plan on doing some traveling within the airport next time I travel :)

 

Random question, but still airport related... Is there a way to determine what flights are connecting in Cleveland in advance?

 

I'm sure this comes as no surprise to you vets, but I overheard a pilot talking about how in many cases it's cheaper to find a flight that's connecting in Cleveland than a flight originating in CLE. For example, two people were traveling to Philly on the same day. One flew Pitt-CLE-Philly and the other CLE-Philly direct. The Pitt flight was cheaper. So I'm trying to figure out how to search for flights that connect in CLE.

 

I'm sure this comes as no surprise to you vets, but I overheard a pilot talking about how in many cases it's cheaper to find a flight that's connecting in Cleveland than a flight originating in CLE. For example, two people were traveling to Philly on the same day. One flew Pitt-CLE-Philly and the other CLE-Philly direct. The Pitt flight was cheaper. So I'm trying to figure out how to search for flights that connect in CLE.

 

did you see my explanation earlier?

Missed the non-hub city to CLE. Thanks!

Easy, catch a flight out of CAK -- Northeast Ohio's other airport. If it wasn't for my redeeming Continental One Pass miles, I'd be flying out of CAK to LaGuardia for $108 O-W in July rather than for $300+ CLE-EWR. And now that Megabus travels from Cleveland to Akron multiple times a day, you can get a $1 fare (or you can take Akron Metro RTA's North Coast Express for $5) to Akron's bus station. There you can transfer to the SARTA bus to Canton. It stops at CAK.

Flew in yesterday, and the airport was definitely not dead, nor was it when I flew out last week, on a full flight to Tampa

 

And yesterday, had to connect in Newark and unfortunately had to use an absolute pigsty of a restroom. Never saw anything that bad in CLE

Easy, catch a flight out of CAK -- Northeast Ohio's other airport. If it wasn't for my redeeming Continental One Pass miles, I'd be flying out of CAK to LaGuardia for $108 O-W in July rather than for $300+ CLE-EWR. And now that Megabus travels from Cleveland to Akron multiple times a day, you can get a $1 fare (or you can take Akron Metro RTA's North Coast Express for $5) to Akron's bus station. There you can transfer to the SARTA bus to Canton. It stops at CAK.

 

Yeah, nothing like adding a couple hours to your travel time by taking the Megabus then local Bus to the airport. 

Money is more important to me than time.

FAA/Congressional budget issue impacting projects at CLE (and elsewhere).

 

"The failure of Congress to pass a temporary appropriation for the Federal Aviation Administration could shut down work next week on a crucial runway project at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport and has already delayed the start of two other projects, including a new air traffic control tower at Hopkins...."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/08/work_at_cleveland_hopkins_inte.html

AA schedule increases on CLE-LGA, per OAG. Daily averages from>to:

 

NOV 3>4

DEC 3>5

JAN 3>5

FEB 3>6

MAR 3>5

APR 3>5

AA schedule increases on CLE-LGA, per OAG. Daily averages from>to:

 

NOV 3>4

DEC 3>5

JAN 3>5

FEB 3>6

MAR 3>5

APR 3>5

 

AMR is in the process of"spinning-off" Eagle.  As Eagle will now be a stand alone company, they will have to introduce greater efficiencies so my guess is that some LGA are being discontinued/scaled back.  In order to protect the slots at LGA, they will add some frequencies to other cities.  CLE is probably such the case.  Out of the 5-6 daily frequencies, I'll bet 2 of those are frequently cancelled.  At some point uses for those jets will probably be found and the LGA frequencies from CLE will reduce.

^ could be, as these are temporary increases. no info on flights after april 2012. However, AA will still have an interest (1st right of contract or something similar) on MQ routes I believe, and AA/AE has been slowly (and quietly) building up service at CLE (including finally returning mainline service here), so maybe this is part of that strategy to capture more of CLE from UA/CO, especially if UA reduces service. After all, NYC is still the second largest market for CLE (after Chicago).

On Monday ( 10/17), ground broke for the new ATC tower at Hopkins. This will be capable of NexGen equipment (the next generation of air traffic control in the US, which is still on the drawing board). The tower will be 324 feet tall, replacing the one built in the late 80's, and will be located near the fedex area/fire station. The new tower will also allow for consolidation of airport approaches at YNG, CAK, TOL, and others, if that comes to be. To open in 2014 at cost of $69m.

 

(The current tower is 198 feet tall.)

 

http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=122520&article=9265153

On Monday ( 10/17), ground broke for the new ATC tower at Hopkins. This will be capable of NexGen equipment (the next generation of air traffic control in the US, which is still on the drawing board). The tower will be 324 feet tall, replacing the one built in the late 80's, and will be located near the fedex area/fire station. The new tower will also allow for consolidation of airport approaches at YNG, CAK, TOL, and others, if that comes to be. To open in 2014 at cost of $69m.

 

(The current tower is 198 feet tall.)

 

http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=122520&article=9265153

 

The primary driver for the new tower was one of visibility for the ground controllers.  Afterpush-back from the gate, one contacts CLE ground for permission AND directions to get to the active runway.  There are currently areas of the aiport to which the ground controllers have no line of sight.  The new, taller tower, will take care of that.  The TRACON was an idea incorporated later.  Frequently smaller airports shut down fairly early after all or most commercial flights have arrived and the approach/departure control is handled by a different larger facility.  I remember flying in to PVD from ATL one night after a lengthy re-rout around a line of storms.  the tower and approach/departure control were closed and the actual vectors and approach in to PVD were handled by BOS.  So too with CAK, YNG, TOL being handled by CLE

Well airline fans, CLE is one year in to its 5-year agreement with United Airlines.  Contrary to conventional wisdom, the CLE hub has not suffered any significant service cuts.  In fact what cuts/additions have been made mirror the seasonal adjustments made in years prior. 

 

It is also worth noting that last year at the time of the execution of the Agreement, the Ohio AG stated that "Operations at Cleveland Hopkins are nowhere near close to triggering the terms that would let the merged airline slash flights".  United also provided financial reports to support that claim.  It is also worth noting that this Agreement was finalized AFTER the US DOJ approved the merger.  Basically, UAL had nothing to gain from agreeing to anything.  This also exposes Smisek's comments last year that CLE was a money loser and that CAL never made money in CLE.  That statement makes one wonder why his predecessor (Kellner) re-commited to CLE dueing the final year of the Campbell administration.  As I wrote at the time, Smisek was just trying to drum up business via scare tactics.  Gordon Bethune always did the same. 

 

Indeed, since the initial PRE-MERGER cuts of 2008 (17%), ops at CLE have remained fairly stable.  IAH, EWR, DEN, ORD have all been cut-back ince then.

 

In short, UAL seems commited to CLE.  Yields are high and pax (especially biz pax) are beginning to pay those premium fares again.  Despite the converntional wisdom of armchair airline CEO's who know nothing of yield management CLE is here to stay for the time being.  If, in this economy, the triggers for UAL to pull out or reduce service haven't happened, CLE must be doing something right.

 

Just my take from the left seat....... 

Thanks for the info

Yes MD88,

 

I/We truly appreciate your analysis of  Hopkins and the airline industry as a whole

I always appreciate hearing MD88PILOT's insight regarding Hopkins and the hub status.

I always appreciate hearing MD88PILOT's insight regarding Hopkins and the hub status.

 

And thats all it is is insight.  I have no material knowledge of anything that United Airlines is contemplating with regard to its ops in CLE or anywhere.  I'm giving an opinion based on 25+ years in the industry, mostly in the cockpit. 

I just read, and now cannot find, some information that passenger number at CLE were up just over 2%.  Yet the rest of OH designated airports were down...way down.

 

Amazing considering we know that Hopkins is only operating at 65-70% of capacity.

 

I always appreciate hearing MD88PILOT's insight regarding Hopkins and the hub status.

 

And thats all it is is insight.  I have no material knowledge of anything that United Airlines is contemplating with regard to its ops in CLE or anywhere.  I'm giving an opinion based on 25+ years in the industry, mostly in the cockpit. 

 

I understand it is just your insight from the cockpit, but it's good to hear your perspective.  Also, it's good to hear a different perspective from the media.

I just read, and now cannot find, some information that passenger number at CLE were up just over 2%.  Yet the rest of OH designated airports were down...way down.

 

Amazing considering we know that Hopkins is only operating at 65-70% of capacity.

 

 

I've seen that figure also.  Fares at CLE are UP 12% also for an avg fare of $221.00.  CVG traffic is down but fares are up aprox 10% to $227.00.  Hardly higher than CLE.  CMH is flat and fares and avg fare creeped up to $170.00.  DAY traffic is also down with aprox avg fare of CMH.  CAK traffic up somewhat and avg fare $158.00.  All these avg fares are based on aprox 900-1,000 mile stage length

This frequent traveler has been shocked by the fares this year out of CLE. Used to be, I'd think long and hard before going to CAK or PIT for lower fares - but I've also got to look out for my company's wallet and feel comfortable (business-ethically) with what I book... In the past, CLE might be $100-$200 on some fares vs. CAK and I'd pick CLE... But now, even 14-30+ days out, I'm finding flights to pretty much any non-Florida destination to be absurdly high out of CLE. When I can save $500 by flying nonstop CAK-CLT vs. CLE-CLT or can save $900 flying nonstop PIT-BOS vs. CLE-BOS (and still getting Star Alliance miles, to boot) - it's really a no brainer, despite my interest in supporting CLE and UAL and my interest in staying a Premier UAL flyer...

^I've used CAK for my last 3 flights...and I even live a train ride away to CLE.

 

I really don't understand the rise of airfare in Cleveland.  my girlfriend even used Pittsburgh this weekend to fly out West.

A few weeks ago I needed to get a round trip from Chicago to Cleveland on the day of. Now I get that you're gonna get screwed when you are getting tickets 12 hrs before no matter where you are, but expedia listed the cheapest cost at just under $700.

 

Thank god for the megabus

 

 

This frequent traveler has been shocked by the fares this year out of CLE. Used to be, I'd think long and hard before going to CAK or PIT for lower fares - but I've also got to look out for my company's wallet and feel comfortable (business-ethically) with what I book... In the past, CLE might be $100-$200 on some fares vs. CAK and I'd pick CLE... But now, even 14-30+ days out, I'm finding flights to pretty much any non-Florida destination to be absurdly high out of CLE. When I can save $500 by flying nonstop CAK-CLT vs. CLE-CLT or can save $900 flying nonstop PIT-BOS vs. CLE-BOS (and still getting Star Alliance miles, to boot) - it's really a no brainer, despite my interest in supporting CLE and UAL and my interest in staying a Premier UAL flyer...

 

the cost of having a hub.  I wouldn't drive - driving equals time and money (tolls, parking gas) and adds to the bottom line of the supposed cheaper ticket - to CAK

I just read, and now cannot find, some information that passenger number at CLE were up just over 2%.  Yet the rest of OH designated airports were down...way down.

 

Amazing considering we know that Hopkins is only operating at 65-70% of capacity.

 

 

I've seen that figure also.  Fares at CLE are UP 12% also for an avg fare of $221.00.  CVG traffic is down but fares are up aprox 10% to $227.00.  Hardly higher than CLE.  CMH is flat and fares and avg fare creeped up to $170.00.  DAY traffic is also down with aprox avg fare of CMH.  CAK traffic up somewhat and avg fare $158.00.  All these avg fares are based on aprox 900-1,000 mile stage length

 

CVG has continued to see a reduction in service though, correct?  It's interesting to see that people are starting to talk about driving to other airports, as that is exactly what people did/still do with CVG.  With Louisville, Lexington, Dayton, and Columbus all being within a 2 hour drive from DT Cincy, you have much more possibility of this happening there than in CLE, but still something to keep an eye on, as it could affect the originating departures from CLE.  If those start to slip, it makes it easier for the hub airline to justify cutting service.  This is just my understanding from witnessing what happened at CVG...definitely no inside info ala MD88PILOT.

I just read, and now cannot find, some information that passenger number at CLE were up just over 2%.  Yet the rest of OH designated airports were down...way down.

 

Amazing considering we know that Hopkins is only operating at 65-70% of capacity.

 

 

I've seen that figure also.  Fares at CLE are UP 12% also for an avg fare of $221.00.  CVG traffic is down but fares are up aprox 10% to $227.00.  Hardly higher than CLE.  CMH is flat and fares and avg fare creeped up to $170.00.  DAY traffic is also down with aprox avg fare of CMH.  CAK traffic up somewhat and avg fare $158.00.  All these avg fares are based on aprox 900-1,000 mile stage length

 

CVG has continued to see a reduction in service though, correct?  It's interesting to see that people are starting to talk about driving to other airports, as that is exactly what people did/still do with CVG.  With Louisville, Lexington, Dayton, and Columbus all being within a 2 hour drive from DT Cincy, you have much more possibility of this happening there than in CLE, but still something to keep an eye on, as it could affect the originating departures from CLE.  If those start to slip, it makes it easier for the hub airline to justify cutting service.  This is just my understanding from witnessing what happened at CVG...definitely no inside info ala MD88PILOT.

 

Quite correct.  This is no inside info.  It is provided to me at a cost though.  It comes from an economic forecasting service.  Besides flying, I also have a Masters in Economics and I keep my hand in the field.  Incidentally, the FED of CLE publishes a monthly booklet called "Economic Trends"  Its free and can be downloaded on their website.  Back to airfares.  Its worth noting that despite a large fare increase in CLE and a LCC airport 25-50 miles south of the area (CAK) that demand for air travel out of CLE has increased. I noted upthread that premium travel from CLE has ticked up.  Also note that demand for air travel has decreased in both CVG and DAY while CMH is flat.  Despite this, fares at CVG have mirrored increases in CLE.  But the demand also shows that the CVG traveller is not driving to DAY or CMH to fly unless without the CVG commuter the traffic situation in CMH and DAY is even worse from a local perspective.

 

The simulataneous fare increases and demand increases in CLE are a good sign as to the viability of the hub, especially with an LCC airport so close tht is ALSO seeing increases in demand.  While not co-terminals like JFK and LGA, they are close enough to compliment each other with CAK able absorb the low cost, low yield, infrequent traveller plus being able to provide the biz traveller in that area with a few nonstops to biz centers.  MTS is right tho, a lower fare at CAK (say $50.00) doesn't really mean savings if you live in Westlake and drive to CAK.  There's roundtrip gas, time (which has a cost) and convenience of schedules.  Plus the LCC airlines usually do not interline.  Meaning that if Airtran cancels a flight, you are stuck until they fly you out.  United could and does just assign your ticket to another airline.

 

At the end of the day, service levels in CLE/CAK have been maintained and somewhat increased overall.  Remember in the spring of 2008, CAL proactively gutted CLE by 17% in anticipation of a recession that conventional wisdom said would decimate CLE.  Northern Ohio had other ideas.  The housing/financial debacle started here a couple years prior to the national meltdown around 2005.  i know Wachovia in 2005 was already concerned about people turning over their properties to the Bank voluntarily and defaulting rather than paying higher mortgages in the CLE area. 

 

Lastly, yields out of CLE are better than some if not most of the competing hubs and I beleive all of the airports mentioned here.  Definitely better than DEN which is rumoured to also be facing some cuts. 

This frequent traveler has been shocked by the fares this year out of CLE. Used to be, I'd think long and hard before going to CAK or PIT for lower fares - but I've also got to look out for my company's wallet and feel comfortable (business-ethically) with what I book... In the past, CLE might be $100-$200 on some fares vs. CAK and I'd pick CLE... But now, even 14-30+ days out, I'm finding flights to pretty much any non-Florida destination to be absurdly high out of CLE. When I can save $500 by flying nonstop CAK-CLT vs. CLE-CLT or can save $900 flying nonstop PIT-BOS vs. CLE-BOS (and still getting Star Alliance miles, to boot) - it's really a no brainer, despite my interest in supporting CLE and UAL and my interest in staying a Premier UAL flyer...

 

the cost of having a hub.  I wouldn't drive - driving equals time and money (tolls, parking gas) and adds to the bottom line of the supposed cheaper ticket - to CAK

 

Yeah. The allure of that cheap ticket from CAK can be appealing until you realize that CAK is some 50+ miles away from many in Cuyahoga County. At 55.5 cents per mile, you are talking an added cost of roughly $60 in auto mileage roundtrip, plus 7 dollars a day in parking, and the added hour to drive down there. Here, I can leave the car at home, walk to the rapid and be in the terminal in 15 minutes for $2.25. So, the real cost to that low CAK fare can be well over $125 than what is advertised.

 

Rarely ever do I see fares to the same destination that much cheaper at CAK versus CLE. There are exceptions and recently I made the drive down to CAK to take the flight (mostly to gain miles on a preferred carrier) and by the time I got there I was telling myself, "never again will I drive this far to catch a flight here" and the 50 mile drive home at 11:45pm wasn't so pleasant either.

 

And to talk a bit more about speculation. Any insight on what might happen once the Airtran/Southwest merger is complete? Status quo for both airports?

I have never found it desirable to fly out of CAK over CLE. Air Tran is an airline I would never fly, so that knocks out most of the frequency out of CAK. Remember AirTran is essentially ValuJet, which was grounded repeatedly by the FAA before killing a bunch of people in the Everglades. ValuJet then merged with the much smaller AirTran (or something like that) and took the name AirTran. I'd never fly them.

This frequent traveler has been shocked by the fares this year out of CLE. Used to be, I'd think long and hard before going to CAK or PIT for lower fares - but I've also got to look out for my company's wallet and feel comfortable (business-ethically) with what I book... In the past, CLE might be $100-$200 on some fares vs. CAK and I'd pick CLE... But now, even 14-30+ days out, I'm finding flights to pretty much any non-Florida destination to be absurdly high out of CLE. When I can save $500 by flying nonstop CAK-CLT vs. CLE-CLT or can save $900 flying nonstop PIT-BOS vs. CLE-BOS (and still getting Star Alliance miles, to boot) - it's really a no brainer, despite my interest in supporting CLE and UAL and my interest in staying a Premier UAL flyer...

 

the cost of having a hub.  I wouldn't drive - driving equals time and money (tolls, parking gas) and adds to the bottom line of the supposed cheaper ticket - to CAK

 

Yeah. The allure of that cheap ticket from CAK can be appealing until you realize that CAK is some 50+ miles away from many in Cuyahoga County. At 55.5 cents per mile, you are talking an added cost of roughly $60 in auto mileage roundtrip, plus 7 dollars a day in parking, and the added hour to drive down there. Here, I can leave the car at home, walk to the rapid and be in the terminal in 15 minutes for $2.25. So, the real cost to that low CAK fare can be well over $125 than what is advertised.

 

Rarely ever do I see fares to the same destination that much cheaper at CAK versus CLE. There are exceptions and recently I made the drive down to CAK to take the flight (mostly to gain miles on a preferred carrier) and by the time I got there I was telling myself, "never again will I drive this far to catch a flight here" and the 50 mile drive home at 11:45pm wasn't so pleasant either.

 

And to talk a bit more about speculation. Any insight on what might happen once the Airtran/Southwest merger is complete? Status quo for both airports?

 

I'm not sure about CLE/CAK after the AirTran/SW merger.  AirTran loves CAK and does well there.  Whether SW feels the same way is anyones guess.  I've heard that SW will start to gradully dispose of AirTrans B717's as they come off lease and a B737 might be a bit big for that market unless SW shrinks CLE to a few flts to MDW/BWI or pulls out altogether and concentrates on CAK.  But if SW concentrates on CAK, any build up there will be dependent on the CLE flyer willing to trek down I-77 for a somewhat cheaper fare.  And SW fares aren't that much cheaper,  Then you have the UAL factor.  With a hub at CLE they could really price SW out of joint markets and make it up on other segments if they wanted to.  In fact over the years SW has shrunk service at CLE somewhat. 

This frequent traveler has been shocked by the fares this year out of CLE. Used to be, I'd think long and hard before going to CAK or PIT for lower fares - but I've also got to look out for my company's wallet and feel comfortable (business-ethically) with what I book... In the past, CLE might be $100-$200 on some fares vs. CAK and I'd pick CLE... But now, even 14-30+ days out, I'm finding flights to pretty much any non-Florida destination to be absurdly high out of CLE. When I can save $500 by flying nonstop CAK-CLT vs. CLE-CLT or can save $900 flying nonstop PIT-BOS vs. CLE-BOS (and still getting Star Alliance miles, to boot) - it's really a no brainer, despite my interest in supporting CLE and UAL and my interest in staying a Premier UAL flyer...

 

the cost of having a hub.  I wouldn't drive - driving equals time and money (tolls, parking gas) and adds to the bottom line of the supposed cheaper ticket - to CAK

 

Yeah. The allure of that cheap ticket from CAK can be appealing until you realize that CAK is some 50+ miles away from many in Cuyahoga County. At 55.5 cents per mile, you are talking an added cost of roughly $60 in auto mileage roundtrip, plus 7 dollars a day in parking, and the added hour to drive down there. Here, I can leave the car at home, walk to the rapid and be in the terminal in 15 minutes for $2.25. So, the real cost to that low CAK fare can be well over $125 than what is advertised.

 

Rarely ever do I see fares to the same destination that much cheaper at CAK versus CLE. There are exceptions and recently I made the drive down to CAK to take the flight (mostly to gain miles on a preferred carrier) and by the time I got there I was telling myself, "never again will I drive this far to catch a flight here" and the 50 mile drive home at 11:45pm wasn't so pleasant either.

 

 

Yeah I am in a similar situation now.  Our ski club is going to Montana in March, with flights out of CAK and CLE.  CAK leaves on Friday, while CLE leaves on Sat.  Leaving on Friday means that I can be on the slopes drinking green beer :D.  Obvious choice.  But we live 5 min from the airport, maybe 10 if we hit every light in between.  I really want to fly out of CLE, and the club does allow you to get your own air and they coordinate the rest.  The problem comes in getting to Bozeman, MT.  Frontier has a nice one layover flight ... that leaves at 6:00am  :-o

 

Continental/United (has to be them as the wife gets free bags) right now doesn't have anything that approaches making flying out of CLE worth it.  I really do not want to wake up at 3:30am.

This frequent traveler has been shocked by the fares this year out of CLE. Used to be, I'd think long and hard before going to CAK or PIT for lower fares - but I've also got to look out for my company's wallet and feel comfortable (business-ethically) with what I book... In the past, CLE might be $100-$200 on some fares vs. CAK and I'd pick CLE... But now, even 14-30+ days out, I'm finding flights to pretty much any non-Florida destination to be absurdly high out of CLE. When I can save $500 by flying nonstop CAK-CLT vs. CLE-CLT or can save $900 flying nonstop PIT-BOS vs. CLE-BOS (and still getting Star Alliance miles, to boot) - it's really a no brainer, despite my interest in supporting CLE and UAL and my interest in staying a Premier UAL flyer...

 

the cost of having a hub.  I wouldn't drive - driving equals time and money (tolls, parking gas) and adds to the bottom line of the supposed cheaper ticket - to CAK

 

Yeah. The allure of that cheap ticket from CAK can be appealing until you realize that CAK is some 50+ miles away from many in Cuyahoga County. At 55.5 cents per mile, you are talking an added cost of roughly $60 in auto mileage roundtrip, plus 7 dollars a day in parking, and the added hour to drive down there. Here, I can leave the car at home, walk to the rapid and be in the terminal in 15 minutes for $2.25. So, the real cost to that low CAK fare can be well over $125 than what is advertised.

 

Rarely ever do I see fares to the same destination that much cheaper at CAK versus CLE. There are exceptions and recently I made the drive down to CAK to take the flight (mostly to gain miles on a preferred carrier) and by the time I got there I was telling myself, "never again will I drive this far to catch a flight here" and the 50 mile drive home at 11:45pm wasn't so pleasant either.

 

 

Yeah I am in a similar situation now.  Our ski club is going to Montana in March, with flights out of CAK and CLE.  CAK leaves on Friday, while CLE leaves on Sat.  Leaving on Friday means that I can be on the slopes drinking green beer :D.  Obvious choice.  But we live 5 min from the airport, maybe 10 if we hit every light in between.  I really want to fly out of CLE, and the club does allow you to get your own air and they coordinate the rest.  The problem comes in getting to Bozeman, MT.  Frontier has a nice one layover flight ... that leaves at 6:00am  :-o

 

Continental/United (has to be them as the wife gets free bags) right now doesn't have anything that approaches making flying out of CLE worth it.  I really do not want to wake up at 3:30am.

 

Oh lawd...you and your "trips".  Folks have your suggestions for tedders55 ready!  LMAO SMH

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Yeah I am in a similar situation now.  Our ski club is going to Montana in March, with flights out of CAK and CLE.  CAK leaves on Friday, while CLE leaves on Sat.  Leaving on Friday means that I can be on the slopes drinking green beer :D.  Obvious choice.  But we live 5 min from the airport, maybe 10 if we hit every light in between.  I really want to fly out of CLE, and the club does allow you to get your own air and they coordinate the rest.  The problem comes in getting to Bozeman, MT.  Frontier has a nice one layover flight ... that leaves at 6:00am  :-o

 

Continental/United (has to be them as the wife gets free bags) right now doesn't have anything that approaches making flying out of CLE worth it.  I really do not want to wake up at 3:30am.

 

Oh lawd...you and your "trips".  Folks have your suggestions for tedders55 ready!  LMAO SMH

 

(eliminated some of the quotes for brevity)

 

Ohh STFU, you enjoy it.  Besides that was more venting as I had just spent 2 hours trying to find flights.  Luckily I still have all of Nov. before I hit the clubs drop date.

 

Seriously though it does show one airport can make a difference in price, and that there are many factors than need to be considered when flying.  Really it is a positive to have CAK where it is.  I'm pretty sure Hopkins could not handle all the traffic that does come through CAK.

Ohh STFU, you enjoy it.  Besides that was more venting as I had just spent 2 hours trying to find flights.  Luckily I still have all of Nov. before I hit the clubs drop date.

 

Seriously though it does show one airport can make a difference in price, and that there are many factors than need to be considered when flying.  Really it is a positive to have CAK where it is.  I'm pretty sure Hopkins could not handle all the traffic that does come through CAK.

 

I know you aint talkin' to me like that!  :shoot:  LOL

 

I think Hopkins could handle the traffic as its operating at 65-70% capacity and we don't have an after 9pm bank of outgoing flights.

Ohh STFU, you enjoy it.  Besides that was more venting as I had just spent 2 hours trying to find flights.  Luckily I still have all of Nov. before I hit the clubs drop date.

 

Seriously though it does show one airport can make a difference in price, and that there are many factors than need to be considered when flying.  Really it is a positive to have CAK where it is.  I'm pretty sure Hopkins could not handle all the traffic that does come through CAK.

 

I know you aint talkin' to me like that!  :shoot:  LOL

 

I think Hopkins could handle the traffic as its operating at 65-70% capacity and we don't have an after 9pm bank of outgoing flights.

 

Thats probably true that currently they are under capacity, but I would think an airport would never want to be at capacity either.  Using some simple math and blurry graphs from Flight Aware (http://flightaware.com/analysis/graphs/airport/KCLE and http://flightaware.com/analysis/graphs/airport/KCAK) It would seem that CLE's capacity is 85 operations per hour.  If you add the highest from each together (granted this is just for one day) that would put the combined at 83% usage.  I'm not sure what a good buffer is between actual usage and capacity, but i would guess somewhere around there. 

I would not have expected major cuts from CO/UA at CLE until the first phase of the merger agreement with Cordray expires AND the airlines have successfully combined operations.  We are not "out of the woods".

It looks like this Sunday, November 6, 2011 is the end of Delta's CLE-CVG route. This might be a seasonal change but I doubt it because it's always been year round before and DL is shrinking the CVG hub so there are not as many connections for CLE originating pax to utilize anyways. We are seeing larger, mainline A/C on CLE-ATL now however.

 

Sunday's final flight will be operated with a dual-class CR7 instead of the usual 50-seat CRJ/ERJ.

^Excuse my ignorance but does that mean there are no longer any direct flights from Hopkins to Cincy (I cannot imagine this) or does United/Cont. offer flights (or some other airline)?

Continental Connection has 3 CLE-CVG flights a day M-F, non-jet service.  I will miss the Delta service as our corporate HQ is in Cinci and I HATE turboprop flights.

Continental Connection has 3 CLE-CVG flights a day M-F, non-jet service.  I will miss the Delta service as our corporate HQ is in Cinci and I HATE turboprop flights.

 

I was actually kind of surprised to hear Delta was cutting this route. Everytime I flew it there seemed to be lots of Cincy bound Cleveland business people just going down for a day trip or whatever. I mean, the drive is essentially 5 hours with traffic so there is a market for flights, BUT I'm sure Delta was using this primarily for feeder traffic. All those people can be just as easily served by ATL and DTW now though probably.

^Excuse my ignorance but does that mean there are no longer any direct flights from Hopkins to Cincy (I cannot imagine this) or does United/Cont. offer flights (or some other airline)?

 

and to take it a step further, is CVG the other inter-Ohio destination that CO serves? Or are there flights to DAY and CMH as well? DL has cut CVG-CMH and CVG-DAY already.