Vision Airlines flights to Myrtle Beach ending earlier than originally planned.

Didn't Vision cancel all their Myrtle Beach flights from all 7 origination points, not just CLE?

Most of my family met up in NJ a few weekends ago for my daughters Christening at my wife's parents' church.  My wife left the house with my daughter heading to CLE at about 9:30am on Friday to fly to Newark.  I left with my son at about 10:45am and started the 8 hour drive to NJ.  We arrived at her my in-laws' house  (in Hazlet.... Monmouth County) within 10 minutes of eachother.  Her flight had been delayed for hours and my dad's flight from CLT was also delayed for hours.  There was no issue at CLE or CLT.  The reason for both delays was that Newark was too congested for any more landings.  This just made me think how ridiculous and irresponsible it would be for United to close down our hub and re-route ADDITIONAL traffic to Newark and O'Hare. 

As an air line industry outsider LOL, It makes me wonder if the talk of De-hubbing Hopkins is all talk or is it really just more profitable to shove as many flights as possible into an already over capacity airport?

The September edition of Hemispheres (United's in-flight magazine) has a feature on a CLE employee. I can't find the article online yet, however; they still have August up on their website. Nice to see some CLE recognition all the same.

Also, the new Dreamliner (the B-787) will be in CLE in Nov---though only for one roundtrip--IAH-CLE.

 

IAH-CLE-IAH

7 a.m. northbound

4 p.m. southbound

Nov. 10, 2012

 

 

http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=83680&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1730079&highlight=

Also, the new Dreamliner (the B-787) will be in CLE in Nov---though only for one roundtrip--IAH-CLE.

 

IAH-CLE-IAH

7 a.m. northbound

4 p.m. southbound

Nov. 10, 2012

 

 

http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=83680&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1730079&highlight=

 

Tickets should be available September 1, if anyone's interested. :)

The September edition of Hemispheres (United's in-flight magazine) has a feature on a CLE employee. I can't find the article online yet, however; they still have August up on their website. Nice to see some CLE recognition all the same.

 

Here's the article about CLE's Jackie Jones from Hemispheres: http://www.hemispheresmagazine.com/2012/09/01/the-granny-effect/

This is great news for me as I have family in Denver but sounds like good news for CLE as well:

 

http://media.flyfrontier.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5391

This is great news for me as I have family in Denver but sounds like good news for CLE as well:

 

http://media.flyfrontier.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5391

 

That's a strange schedule! I sure hope Frontier has a bunch of flights departing DEN after 8 p.m. to connect with.

^^^ Yes, it does allow for connection to the last bank of west coast bound departures for the evening which leave between 8 and 9:30 Denver time. Just checked Flightstats and it looks like theres 10-15 options, mostly CA cities but also LAS, SEA, PDX, PHX, SLC, GEG, COS, OKC, and so on

This is great news for me as I have family in Denver but sounds like good news for CLE as well:

 

http://media.flyfrontier.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5391

 

That's a strange schedule! I sure hope Frontier has a bunch of flights departing DEN after 8 p.m. to connect with.

 

That is very interesting.  I had heard a rumor that Frontier was pulling out of CAK, but didn't really think it was true.  This is basically eliminating the early, early 6:15 am flight they had out of CAK. 

 

Ski clubs in the area use them a lot to for flights for week long trips in the winter.  Mostly because they are cheaper than United or American, etc.  Hopefully they can put some downward pressure on United's CLE-DEN flights.  Although that 7:20pm arrival time makes trekking out to most ski resorts a late arrival, say 10:00 or 11:00 at night.

^ I guess this relocation to CLE is not that shocking. considering the fact that the 799 pound gorilla of low cost carriers just initiated service from AKC to DEN.  Perhaps, Frontier felt that the town (Akron) wasn't big enough for both of them.  In Cleveland there is CLE - DEN service on legacy carrier United, which the Frontier LCC service can complement, particularly if it is aimed largely at leisure travelers, which the four flights per week schedule would seem to favor.

United announces new nonstop service to Nashville (BNA) and Oklahoma City (OKC).

United is also discontinuing nonstop service to Green Bay, WI (GRB).

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/article/2012-09-20/aqFNk5geGndw.html

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/09/united_airlines_adding_nonstop.html

I'd say the Oklahoma City flight is a direct result of shale gas - there's got to be lots of energy execs flying in and out.

 

 

With company HQ in Green Bay, I have taken that nonstop a dozen times... ugh...

With company HQ in Green Bay, I have taken that nonstop a dozen times... ugh...

 

Hope you like O'Hare....

With company HQ in Green Bay, I have taken that nonstop a dozen times... ugh...

 

Hope you like O'Hare....

 

ORD is airport code for "painful delays and cancellations"

I've been seeing way too much of O'Hare (including last night) - and, better yet, at connecting ORD fares as high as non-stop CLE fares a few years ago. THAT's what gets me most...

Apparently there is an approaching 10/1 deadline of some kind that involves United making a decision on staying in Cleveland?  There is no cause for concern I don't believe, but does anyone know more about this?  I guess based on the details of the merger they were only required to remain in Cleveland for x amount of time?  It sounds like one less hurdle for them to clear before they can consolidate around their Chicago base of operations. I hope that the city does all it can to avoid this from happening.  Having a HUB means so much, especially to the business world.

Apparently there is an approaching 10/1 deadline of some kind that involves United making a decision on staying in Cleveland?  There is no cause for concern I don't believe, but does anyone know more about this?  I guess based on the details of the merger they were only required to remain in Cleveland for x amount of time?  It sounds like one less hurdle for them to clear before they can consolidate around their Chicago base of operations. I hope that the city does all it can to avoid this from happening.  Having a HUB means so much, especially to the business world.

 

It's an extremely good sign that United is restarting Nashville and Oklahoma City despite dropping Green Bay. They've also expanded operations to other regional destinations for next spring. DL is not doing this for their "at risk" hubs in Cincy or Memphis. How long does this expansion last? Who knows but it is a definite positive for the short term.

^Not sure. If you're referring to the agreement between UA and State to keep flight levels here a certain level, that doesn't really matter as it was a meaningless agreement anyway and has no bearing on hub status. On the upside, per the latest OAG upload, we're seeing some frequency increases on certain routes, compared to what was in the schedules last week. This is on top of new service announced to OKC and BNA.

 

Below are frequency changes comparing this week's OAG to last. These are flights per day.

 

--UA CLE-ALB FEB 1.9>3 MAR 2>4 APR 2>4 MAY 2>4


--UA CLE-BOS MAR 4>5 APR 4>5 MAY 4>5


--UA CLE-BUF MAR 3>4 APR 3>4 MAY 3>4


--UA CLE-CMH MAR 3>4 APR 3>4 MAY 3>4

--
UA CLE-DAY JAN 3>1.8


--UA CLE-FNT JAN 3>4


--UA CLE-GRB DEC 1.5>0.9 JAN 1.1>0 FEB 1.5>0 MAR 1.8>0 APR 1.9>0 MAY 1.9>0

--UA CLE-IND FEB 4>5 MAR 3>5 APR 3>5 MAY 3>5


--UA CLE-PVD FEB 3>1.6


--UA CLE-YYZ NOV 4>3

--UA DEN-CLE MAR 3>4 APR 3>4 MAY 3>4  (this one is likely in response to the F9’s CLE-DEN announcement)

 

What type of AC are BNA and OKC being operated with? 50-seat CRJ?

I believe both are ERJ145's (approx 50 seats).

I'm watching channel 5 and they keep running commercials for a story on "the future of Hopkins" and how information they have will "change the way we fly in NEO". It's supposedly on Monday at 11pm. They also have some guy saying "they're delaying the inevitable"... I sure hope this isn't what we all fear. I don't know if anyone has any information on what this potentially is? Or maybe it's just the typical negative nancy news.

 

I'm watching channel 5 and they keep running commercials for a story on "the future of Hopkins" and how information they have will "change the way we fly in NEO". It's supposedly on Monday at 11pm. They also have some guy saying "they're delaying the inevitable"... I sure hope this isn't what we all fear. I don't know if anyone has any information on what this potentially is? Or maybe it's just the typical negative nancy news.

 

 

I haven't heard anything at all. (This is a subject I keep half an eye on). Flyertalk has nothing in its CLE thread either and it tends to be the early warning for Hopkins related news -

 

This thread is a good discussion:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-mileageplus-consolidated/1080953-doesnt-sound-good-cle-63.html

 

Just a couple of weeks ago the sentiment was this: 

I doubt UA is going to do anything dramatic with CLE at this point, either way.

 

they're generally holding capacity constant systemwide or reducing a bit. The local economy is relatively strong these days, both historically and relative to the country as a whole.

 

Its in UA's interest to have a hub as long as its profitable on a marginal basis. Despite the constant flak that CLE gets, the fact of the matter is that if you look at the metrics that determine whether a hub is profitable or not, CLE has one of the highest percentages of O/D traffic in the system (far higher than IAH), the yield out of CLE is also higher, however that's due in large part to the high % of shorthaul RJ flights. What CLE doesn't seem to support are intercontinental flights, which require by definition, a large gauge aircraft and steady front-cabin demand, its much easier and lower risk for them to schelp passengers to EWR/ORD, where they have a wide selection of EU destinations rather than picking LHR or FRA and trying to fill it on a mostly-O/D basis.

The airlines have cut 3,000 daily flights since 2007 -- 40 percent of which were on routes shorter than 500 miles. That has hit most small and medium airports in the Midwest-Northeast. Sounds like Cleveland is en route to "rise" to the top of other medium-sized Midwest hubs that have lost flights....

 

Cincinnati  -63.1%

Pittsburgh -40.1%

Memphis  -35.5%

Cleveland -26.3%

St. Louis  -25.0%

 

SOURCE: http://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/dot/files/Aviation%20Industry%20Performance%5E9-24-12.pdf

 

Many smaller airports have experienced worse losses. I don't have flight reduction data, but I do have enplanements data going back to 2000. This is the change in enplanements, per FAA 2000-2011:

 

Indianapolis, IN: -4 percent

Syracuse, NY: -7 percent

Albany, NY: -7 percent

Columbus, OH: -9 percent

Detroit Metro, MI: -9 percent

Allentown-Lehigh Valley, PA: -13 percent

Binghamton-Link, NY: -16 percent

Fort Wayne, IN: -22 percent

Newburgh-Stewart, NY: -23 percent

Rochester, NY: -26 percent

Erie, PA: -28 percent

South Bend, IN: -29 percent

Cleveland, OH: -31 percent

Williamsport, PA: -41 percent

Kalamazoo/Battle Creek -43 percent

Lancaster, PA: -52 percent

Pittsburgh, PA: -59 percent

Du Bois-Jefferson County, PA: -61 percent

Johnstown-Cambria County, PA: -63 percent

Parkersburg-Wood County, WV: -66 percent

Cincinnati, OH: -70 percent

Toledo, OH: -71 percent

Altoona-Blair County, PA: -74 percent

Bradford, PA: -78 percent

Jamestown-Chautauqua County, NY: -81 percent

Detroit City, MI: -100 percent

Gary-Chicago, IN: -100 percent*

Port Clinton-Keller, OH: -100 percent

Put-In-Bay, OH: -100 percent

Reading, PA: -100 percent

 

* Allegiant Air began serving Gary-Chicago in 2012 with 7,567 enplanements as of Aug. 2012, according to USDOT BTS.

Looks like this is the "news" story. 

Not much new...but sobering to say the least.

On a side note, I find it hard to believe that Pittsburgh could not retain a hub with all of their strong Fortune 500 companies AND the fact that there is no competition, unlike Akron/Canton is for CLE.

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/money/consumer/consumer_specialist/cincinnatis-airport-saw-a-drastic-reduction-in-flights-after-delta-merged-with-northwest

CAK does draw from PIT, but not as much CAK draws from CLE -- and not just because CLE is closer to CAK. CLE's average fares are also higher than PIT's.

 

The ability of a city to get or keep its hub doesn't seem to matter as much on the local travel market anymore. Fact is there are fewer hubs, and there may be even fewer hubs in the future depending on everything from fuel prices to average household incomes.

Heh.

 

Quite the "news" story.

 

You're welcome for the ruin porn. I guess CVG is the Detroit of airports.

Looks like this is the "news" story. 

Not much new...but sobering to say the least.

On a side note, I find it hard to believe that Pittsburgh could not retain a hub with all of their strong Fortune 500 companies AND the fact that there is no competition, unlike Akron/Canton is for CLE.

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/money/consumer/consumer_specialist/cincinnatis-airport-saw-a-drastic-reduction-in-flights-after-delta-merged-with-northwest

Pitts does have competition, in Philly, USAirs biggest international HUB.  Also, just because they have a perceived strong Fortune 500, that doesn't translate into O&D passengers!  I cannot find it but like Memphis, Detroit and Minnie, the majority of their passengers were connections.  Atlanta is an anomaly in all this as they have more connections than O&D and that is due to Delta specifically cramming all connections thru ATL, to attempt to make is HQ Hub a superhub.

 

 

Obviously, we need to build more passenger train routes between airline hubs and smaller cities to maintain sufficient capacity at the smaller hubs.  The airlines should be lobbying for it. 

 

Whoever figures this out first could be a big winner.  Imagine rail lines from Dayton through Cincinnati, Indianapolis?, Lexington, and Louisville into CVG.  Suddenly CVG could be a powerhouse in the midwest. 

Obviously, we need to build more passenger train routes between airline hubs and smaller cities to maintain sufficient capacity at the smaller hubs.  The airlines should be lobbying for it. 

 

Whoever figures this out first could be a big winner.  Imagine rail lines from Dayton through Cincinnati, Indianapolis?, Lexington, and Louisville into CVG.  Suddenly CVG could be a powerhouse in the midwest. 

 

HUH?  So that is the the NE Cooridor lines are cause issues with American, Delta and USAirs' Boston-LGA-DCA Shuttle marketshare.  Just a gut feeling but I don't think the airlines would be on board.

CLE serves what, maybe 8 million passengers per year right now? I believe Cincy was close to 25 million 10 years ago before de-hubbing began. Big difference between the two. The O&D at CLE is something like 70% so that doesn't leave much wiggle room to cut more flights because so many are full of people starting or ending their trip in Cleveland. Whatever United would cut in a de-hub, some other airline would swoop in to replace if it was a popular flight.

 

But lets say that United drops CLE as a hub, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Yeah, good-bye nonstops to Montreal, Albany, Burlington, and Providence, but you're not going to lose all the major East Coast cities and San Francisco and Los Angeles wouldn't be out the door either. You also wouldn't lose any of the Florida tourist flights either. So unless your business/leisure takes you to the local regional feeder airports or some of the smaller cities of the Northeast, a de-hub probably won't be that catastrophic as the doomsdayers say it will be. You'd also probably see cities like Minneapolis, Philadelphia, and Charlotte switch to more mainline aircraft instead of regional jets as Delta and US Airways would grab a larger piece of the CLE market. Take a look at the current Pittsburgh nonstop routes list, it's not that bad for a non-hub airport and their enplanements for a non-hub are only just a hair smaller than CLE's as a hub.

 

I'd also imagine that a de-hubbing of CLE would be the kiss of death for Akron-Canton? Akron-Canton sort of depends on a strong CLE hub as a cheaper alternative. If United were to leave a huge hole in the CLE non-stop route network, the low cost carriers would swoop in and I could see Southwest/Airtran moving a good chunk of their flights to CLE to pick up the slack and tap into a much larger market. Are there any other two non hub airports the scale of CLE and CAK that operate so close to one another? CLE and CAK are 54 miles apart, while CVG and DAY are 78 miles apart (driving miles).

 

 

Enplanements in 2000 --> 2011

 

CLE: 6,269,516 --> 4,401,033

CVG: 11,223,966 --> 3,422,466

PIT:  9,871,995 --> 4,070,614

PIT lost its hub because it wouldn't negotiate rents and United had too many hubs. Hubs aren't really about the local metro population. IMHO

CLE is cheaper than CAK? Wow. DAY is historically way cheaper than CVG. Part of the reason for CVG's relatively poor O&D showing is high ticket prices with cheaper alternative airports nearby.

 

The risk in losing the hub status is the loss of attraction of the region to businesses. Cincinnati lost Chiquita to Charlotte largely because of CVG's downsizing (losing flights to South America i.e. bananaland).

CLE is cheaper than CAK? Wow. DAY is historically way cheaper than CVG. Part of the reason for CVG's relatively poor O&D showing is high ticket prices with cheaper alternative airports nearby.

 

The risk in losing the hub status is the loss of attraction of the region to businesses. Cincinnati lost Chiquita to Charlotte largely because of CVG's downsizing (losing flights to South America i.e. bananaland).

 

 

 

Sorry if I worded that poorly. CAK is the cheaper alternative to CLE. But if CLE were to lose hub status as a strong United hub, then CAK loses its appeal and marketing as the cheaper alternative. Fares at CLE would drop and you'd probably see another low cost carrier enter the market at CLE making CAK seem less attractive for travelers coming from the Cleveland area.

PIT lost its hub because it wouldn't negotiate rents and United had too many hubs. Hubs aren't really about the local metro population. IMHO

 

No one's saying they are. And most cities that had hubs are losing them to the airlines' new operational model of slashing seat-miles, withdrawing to a hub or two where they can dominate, forcing more people onto fewer flights, and jacking up fares on the remaining seats. But the airlines are actually making a little money for a change in the last couple of years. Having 85 percent of the flights provided by only five airlines (four if the American-US Air merger goes through -- as early as this week) also keeps fares up too.

 

BTW, after what happened at CVG, MEM, PIT, STL and elsewhere (big expansion shortly before massive cuts in flights), even Charlotte isn't ready to jump at a $1 billion expansion until they see how the American-US Air merger shakes out.

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/12/15/3726217/whats-at-stake-if-us-airways-american.html

Enplanements in 2000 --> 2011

 

CLE: 6,269,516 --> 4,401,033

CVG: 11,223,966 --> 3,422,466

PIT:  9,871,995 --> 4,070,614

 

Yep, it seems that Midwest enplanements are back to mid 1990s levels after the surge in the late 90s and early 2000s thanks to a booming economy and super cheap oil.

 

I have noticed that fares at CLE this past year have been quite cheap. I've seen round trip nonstops to Los Angeles at $200 with Southwest offering connecting service in the $170s. Similarly nonstops to the East Coast cities have regularly been under $150. You gotta wonder how much longer this is going to last. We keep hearing that the days of cheap travel are over, but right now flights are still relatively affordable with the airlines just barely breaking even.

CLE is cheaper than CAK? Wow. DAY is historically way cheaper than CVG. Part of the reason for CVG's relatively poor O&D showing is high ticket prices with cheaper alternative airports nearby.

 

The risk in losing the hub status is the loss of attraction of the region to businesses. Cincinnati lost Chiquita to Charlotte largely because of CVG's downsizing (losing flights to South America i.e. bananaland).

 

 

 

Sorry if I worded that poorly. CAK is the cheaper alternative to CLE. But if CLE were to lose hub status as a strong United hub, then CAK loses its appeal and marketing as the cheaper alternative. Fares at CLE would drop and you'd probably see another low cost carrier enter the market at CLE making CAK seem less attractive for travelers coming from the Cleveland area.

 

Ahh, okay. Makes more sense.

 

CVG has recently been rated the most expensive airport, despite all the downsizing. So even with a smaller size, CLE might retain higher prices. Hopefully not, though. It sucks flying into DAY, CMH, IND, and SDF to avoid sky-high airfares. I definitely don't wish that hassle on you guys.

Yep, it seems that Midwest enplanements are back to mid 1990s levels after the surge in the late 90s and early 2000s thanks to a booming economy and super cheap oil.

 

I have noticed that fares at CLE this past year have been quite cheap. I've seen round trip nonstops to Los Angeles at $200 with Southwest offering connecting service in the $170s. Similarly nonstops to the East Coast cities have regularly been under $150. You gotta wonder how much longer this is going to last. We keep hearing that the days of cheap travel are over, but right now flights are still relatively affordable with the airlines just barely breaking even.

 

Not to Chicago it's not. Southwest has the cheapest flights at $180+ round trip. United starts at $300. There's only 18 round trips per day. This was a route that had 40 RT flights in the late 90s with RT fares at $100 or less. It was one of the most air-competitive routes in the nation back then.

I disagree on CLE flights having reasonable fares this past year. I generally am on 50-70 flights/20-25 RTs a year and have never spent more per avg fare than this past year. I have lost count on the # of $500-$700+ fares I have booked, let alone thd $1000+ fares.... all generally with 14 day advance though that means little anymore... Oh, and even most of those went through ORD at least one direction. ... couldn't afford direct.... even higher.

 

To me the benchmark is CLE-Chicago. For years you could almost walk up and get a $125-150ish round-trip on the day of flight, under $100 with some planning... Now, weeks out, $300-$400 is normal and $700-$900 with just a week notice on some flights... IF you can get a space...

 

 

The only reason why I know about Chicago is that I've had several meetings there in the past year. So I took Megabus the first time. An Amtrak sleeper the second time. And Amtrak coach seating the third time. The coach seat is the base fare at $53 each way if you book in advance or twice that if you get one of the last remaining seats. Ditto for the sleeper, as the cheapest private room is the roomette and costs an additional $111-148 each way for advance bookings. So if you want to travel from Cleveland to Chicago and back in a bed, you can travel for as little as $350 round trip. But I can't afford that so I travel by coach at $106 round trip (advance purchase) and arrive Chicago by 9 a.m.

 

I looked at flights to Chicago each time. I could not afford flying to Chicago any of those times. If the train was an hour or two faster and/or the departure times out of Cleveland more civilized, I would never even consider flying to Chicago again.

Yep, it seems that Midwest enplanements are back to mid 1990s levels after the surge in the late 90s and early 2000s thanks to a booming economy and super cheap oil.

 

I have noticed that fares at CLE this past year have been quite cheap. I've seen round trip nonstops to Los Angeles at $200 with Southwest offering connecting service in the $170s. Similarly nonstops to the East Coast cities have regularly been under $150. You gotta wonder how much longer this is going to last. We keep hearing that the days of cheap travel are over, but right now flights are still relatively affordable with the airlines just barely breaking even.

 

Not to Chicago it's not. Southwest has the cheapest flights at $180+ round trip. United starts at $300. There's only 18 round trips per day. This was a route that had 40 RT flights in the late 90s with RT fares at $100 or less. It was one of the most air-competitive routes in the nation back then.

 

The hub fares also rate into this.  Having a hub increases fares.

 

I disagree on CLE flights having reasonable fares this past year. I generally am on 50-70 flights/20-25 RTs a year and have never spent more per avg fare than this past year. I have lost count on the # of $500-$700+ fares I have booked, let alone thd $1000+ fares.... all generally with 14 day advance though that means little anymore... Oh, and even most of those went through ORD at least one direction. ... couldn't afford direct.... even higher.

 

To me the benchmark is CLE-Chicago. For years you could almost walk up and get a $125-150ish round-trip on the day of flight, under $100 with some planning... Now, weeks out, $300-$400 is normal and $700-$900 with just a week notice on some flights... IF you can get a space...

 

 

Those fares were generally cheaper as Continental and United were fighting for your dollars along with Southwest.  Now there is one less competitor on a major business and leisure route.  Also, MDW was taken out of the route system.    It was a given fares would go up.

Everyone should just get fancy NYC jobs and not give a sh!t about increasing fares!

Everyone should just get fancy NYC jobs and not give a sh!t about increasing fares!

 

OK MTS, give him Meryl's Death Stare.

Everyone should just get fancy NYC jobs and not give a sh!t about increasing fares!

 

He does not deserve one.  But this one is for your pleasure!

 

Everyone should just get fancy NYC jobs and not give a sh!t about increasing fares!

 

 

Well, it ain't Meryl. But Joan will do.

More hub discussion: