I think the leader jumped to alot of conclusions there, I think the city will handle this just fine, like we always do. Second, to maydays point there is alot of money to be made here with flights, I suspect someone else, hopefully southwest will jump on it

I don't know about just fine, but I don't know if it's as apocalyptic as the Leader article would imply. Thing about Southwest is their sizable presence at Akron/Canton but I fully admit I don't know how the airlines are run.

^Akron-Canton should be happy. They've killed the UA hub.

 

If you look at the O & D numbers for CLE, they are very good.

 

If United were to cut 60% of their operations, the other airlines will pretty much have to add flights very quickly to fill the local demand (regardless if a new carrier were to enter the market). Or else ticket prices will skyrocket if no one jumps in.

 

For those complaining about the regional jet service, your wish has been granted. You'll probably see more mainline service to other US hub locations.

^Akron-Canton should be happy. They've killed the UA hub.

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure of that. AirTran was bought by Southwest and is expected to be fully integrated into their system by the end of the year. AirTran was Akron-Canton's prize. With this United announcement, who's to say that AirTran/Southwest won't leave CAK for CLE to fill the huge void? With United out, Southwest could grab a huge market share in Cleveland versus Akron.

 

Obviously it's incredibly early, but who can say what the airlines will do? Anything seems to be on the table.

 

 

I just read a post from a local United employee on Facebook saying that the cutbacks are only affecting ExpressJet flights, and that mainline flights and related employees will be unaffected. While there were typically more ExpressJet flights per day than mainline, mainline flights carry more passengers through Hopkins. Not sure how credible this is though.

 

Hopefully another airline can fill the traffic void.

WestBLVD--i was being sarcastic. CAK's rise has come directly at CLE's expense---and this was intentional. They were too narrowminded or selfish to understand that by hurting CLE they are hurting Akron as well.

I just read a post from a local United employee on Facebook saying that the cutbacks are only affecting ExpressJet flights, and that mainline flights and related employees will be unaffected. While there were typically more ExpressJet flights per day than mainline, mainline flights carry more passengers through Hopkins. Not sure how credible this is though.

 

Hopefully another airline can fill the traffic void.

 

This is what the PD is reporting as well. Still a bunch of BS. So sick of the continued crapping on this region by giant corporations.

I can see another airline stepping in, but CLE should cut its fees. But its a chicken-and-egg situation. Having more traffic makes it easier to develop more landside uses (hotels, offices, etc) to reduce its fees but its tough to add more traffic when the fees are high.

WestBLVD--i was being sarcastic. CAK's rise has come directly at CLE's expense---and this was intentional. They were too narrowminded or selfish to understand that by hurting CLE they are hurting Akron as well.

 

Sorry, didn't catch the sarcasm over the internet.

 

But yes, CAK should be very concerned. One of the reasons CLE is getting dehubbed is because the era of the regional jet is over. They are costly and fuel inefficient. The vast majority of cuts that United is going to do is removal of the regional jet. As airlines look to save money, does it make sense for the merged American/US Airways to operate regional jets from both CAK and CLE ... and to pay people to operate both of those locations? They could consolidate at CLE, dump the regional jets, and with the combined traffic operate larger aircraft.

 

 

According to early reports, it looks like CLE will be served by 20 United destinations once the de-hubbing is complete. United has been serving roughly 65 non stops the past year (some only on a seasonal basis) from CLE.

 

And ... the bigger question becomes ... what happens to the D gates at CLE? It's the newest and nicest terminal, but obviously meant for the regional jet, and come July this will be empty. Will all air traffic be consolidated to B and C?

 

Well, it was nice well it lasted. Mergers are merciless.

How many airports have empty/closed terminals? St. Louis? Cincinnati? Pittsburgh? Others?

^Maybe Memphis I think

 

Actually I found this quote in a article, and it sounds almost exactly like what is happening at CLE

 

"Delta's Memphis schedule will shrink to about 60 flights a day – down from the current 96. Delta offered nearly 150 daily flights at Memphis as recently as April 2012, the Memphis Business Journal reports."

 

And from the PD:

 

"Hopkins has about 245 average daily departures, with 165 of them on United planes, putting the projected number of lost flights at 100."

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/02/united_airlines_says_it_will_d.html#incart_river

This is terrible news... However, I'm interested in finding out what the loss of flights equates to in UAL passengers - at least on paper.. If 9MM passengers used CLE last year overall - what is the revised # when taking out the cancelled UAL cities/flights?

 

And what does our air service - in # of destinations served - look like now when compared to other cities? NEO's 3.5MM or so population is similar in size to TPA, DEN, SAN, MSP (but already has 2nd tier air service when compared to those cities...) How will we look vs 1MM+ smaller metros like IND, CMH, STL, PIT, CVG - which don't have/or have lost hubs (let alone vs smaller but big-hub CLT...). From past checks - most of those cities, CLT aside, have 40ish nonstop. Not sure how many CLE will have when UAL cuts are added on to cities where UAL wont' fly (DL, US, WN hubs, etc...).

 

Truth be told, I fly almost weekly on UAL - but the loss of 40 nonstop cities won't hurt those travels (though will hurt CLE's pride, big-time) - as I almost always connect in ORD or IAH simply due to $ and lack of nonstop where I'm going anyway...

PIT lost a US hub - and gained a DL nonstop to Paris CDG...

 

We can dream, right?

PIT lost a US hub - and gained a DL nonstop to Paris CDG...

 

We can dream, right?

 

It would be nice. But I'm afraid we'll probably see a pretty big reduction in what little international service that exists. It's extremely disappointing news, especially considering the release of last year's passenger figures that showed tremendous growth in the international segment.

 

Currently:

 

United: Toronto, Montreal, Nassau(Bahamas), Cancun

Frontier: Cancun, Punta Cana(Dominican Republic)

Air Canada: Toronto

 

One can presume all those United flights are gone in a few months. Air Canada will probably pick up the slack and add a few more flights to Toronto, that's just too large of a market to not have decent service from Cleveland, especially as a hub for all Canadian connections.

 

Folks in Cleveland are likely going to be very angry with United for this and as such will probably choose other carriers over UA if the price is comparable and now results in a connection regardless. I'm sure even after the drastic cuts take place in spring and early summer, we'll see United slowly cut more flights at the end of the year as passengers choose other airlines in favor of UA. It's happened elsewhere and it'll probably happen here. Just look at US Airways presence at PIT today.

 

Delta and American have both been beefing up their presence at Los Angeles. Either of them could easily add a flight to "pick off" United.

 

What I'm fearing most is what fares are going to be to New York! With American Airlines being "forced" to drop the LaGuardia route and the United dehubbing, you've got to think that seating capacity will be slashed and obviously result in $$$$$ fares. United has said that they will keep the LGA route, but how many of their current flights will they keep?

 

Forces are trying to loot Ohio of it's businesses.

An additional issue with this - yes other airlines will add flights - there will be demand and possible cheaper, but how many will be direct?

Not the mention the direct loss to the regional economy.

 

It's just awful... Cincy, Pittsburgh too. And oddly USAir who was hurt badly after 9/11 (and hardly great before it) killed the PIT hub, but added a

major reservation center about 5 years ago. Well with its merger, they killed that this past week or so.

 

 

I just read a post from a local United employee on Facebook saying that the cutbacks are only affecting ExpressJet flights, and that mainline flights and related employees will be unaffected. While there were typically more ExpressJet flights per day than mainline, mainline flights carry more passengers through Hopkins. Not sure how credible this is though.

 

Hopefully another airline can fill the traffic void.

 

Do they mean specifically ExpressJet?  That's only one of the regional carriers.  There's Trans States, Chautaqua, Sky West, and some others besides ExpressJet.

 

Also, the D concourse at St. Louis was closed following the American de-hubbing and is still closed.

It looks like the following cities will likely no longer be served by nonstop service from Cleveland (cities that United cut, but are served by another carrier won't be on this list). You can clearly see all of the feeder airports that were cut and likely have minimal local demand. But, you can see a lot of major cities and markets that lost nonstop service. I'm doubtful that more than 3 or 4 of these destinations would be picked up by another carrier.

 

Austin, TX

Bradford, PA

Buffalo, NY

Burlington, VT

Columbus, OH

Dayton, OH

DuBois, PA

Erie, PA

Flint, MI

Franklin, PA

Grand Rapids, MI

Greensville/Spartanburg, SC

Harrisburg, PA

Hartford, CT

Indianapolis, IN

Jamestown, NY

Kansas City, MO

Louisville, KY

Madison, WI

Manchester, NH

Montreal, Quebec

New Orleans, LA

Oklahoma City, OK

Parkersburg, WV

Phoenix, AZ

Pittsburgh, PA

Portland, ME

Portland, OR

Providence, RI

Raleigh-Durham, NC

Richmond, VA

Rochester, NY

Seattle, WA

Syracuse, NY

It looks like the following cities will likely no longer be served by nonstop service from Cleveland (cities that United cut, but are served by another carrier won't be on this list). You can clearly see all of the feeder airports that were cut and likely have minimal local demand. But, you can see a lot of major cities and markets that lost nonstop service. I'm doubtful that more than 3 or 4 of these destinations would be picked up by another carrier.

 

Austin, TX

Bradford, PA

Buffalo, NY

Burlington, VT

Columbus, OH

Dayton, OH

DuBois, PA

Erie, PA

Flint, MI

Franklin, PA

Grand Rapids, MI

Greensville/Spartanburg, SC

Harrisburg, PA

Hartford, CT

Indianapolis, IN

Jamestown, NY

Kansas City, MO

Louisville, KY

Madison, WI

Manchester, NH

Montreal, Quebec

New Orleans, LA

Oklahoma City, OK

Parkersburg, WV

Phoenix, AZ

Pittsburgh, PA

Portland, ME

Portland, OR

Providence, RI

Raleigh-Durham, NC

Richmond, VA

Rochester, NY

Seattle, WA

Syracuse, NY

 

Where did you get this list?  Also, according to this, the STL nonstop stays in some capacity!  Hooray!  (Sorry, selfish side note).

 

Where did you get this list?  Also, according to this, the STL nonstop stays in some capacity!  Hooray!  (Sorry, selfish side note).

 

I made it by taking a list of current non-stops at Cleveland and then took into account the 20 locations that United has said it would keep. It looks like a reduction of about 35 non-stop destinations. I'm sure that list will likely change a bit over the year as the airlines ultimately decide what they are going to do.

Think of the Global companies who mandate United as part of their travel policy;

 

Parker Hannifin

Eaton

Sherwin Williams

Key Bank

Progressive

Cleveland Clinic??

 

I'm curious the odds of these switching the corporate policy/mandate of who to fly? I work for one of the companies listed, and I'll no longer be flying United by default.

I can confirm Cleveland clinic on the above list. 

Question for those more familiar with other forms of transit such as Amtrak/Greyhound. In other cities that this has happened has demand for train and bus service increased. Would Amtrak for example add service to those cities affected by the hub closure? And if so would that make the case for a Transportation Center stronger.

 

Discuss here or in this thread.

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2068.msg695115/topicseen.html#new

^Hopefully, those companies will not all pack up and leave, lol.  I feel bad for those interests that stuck their necks out telling local companies to pay a premium to fly United (remember United for the United Hub?).  Betrayed and abandoned, :), and WTF, they've now done it to us twice.  It is as hard to imagine other airlines replacing most of these destinations, as it is to contemplate the tragic loss of nonstops to Flint.  Maybe, a few new flights to their hubs, but nothing exciting, and international is now a dream.

I'm cashing in my miles, canceling my credit card...il be flying southwest and USairways. Not rewarding disloyalty. I think there was a market here but Smisek and company didn't work hard enough to find a good strategy for CLE. Ohare and Newark are hell on earths

Think of the Global companies who mandate United as part of their travel policy;

 

Parker Hannifin

Eaton

Sherwin Williams

Key Bank

Progressive

Cleveland Clinic??

 

I'm curious the odds of these switching the corporate policy/mandate of who to fly? I work for one of the companies listed, and I'll no longer be flying United by default.

 

Progressive doesn't mandate United.

Well, crap, this stinks.  I never flew United (and maybe flew Continental once that I can remember) so I guess people like me are to blame, but this news still infuriates me.  Reading some of the comments on their Facebook page, it makes me feel a little bit better knowing that they're truly despised for their terrible service.

Dead last in overall ranking for 2013... We are losing a loser

400+ jobs and pride is what we are upset about, not anything revolving around United. They are a crappy airline, from what I hear CLE is the least of their issues

I've done some quick website checking to see how many nonstops other nearby, smaller and/or de-hubbed cities have currently have (some stated, others I counted) Some of these may include seasonal and/or multiple airports in NYC, etc... not sure how many CLE will keep, but:

 

Columbus - 30 non stop destinations

Indy - 34

PIT - 36

STL - 61... (12MM passengers - down from 30MM in 2000)

Nashville- 50

CVG - 51

 

CLE didn't have new facilities, like some of the above, but did have a hub. Now, old building, no hub. It was already the biggest market with the worst air service... Now this.

 

 

Also they broke this during the weekend. Did they think it was go under the radar??

Seems odd that UAL would add CLE-AUS nonstop last Fall if dehubbing was inevitable, doesn't it? That flight is now understandably gone.

As a followup to the above nonstop list...

 

I did some quick math (using the horrible CLE website) - and (generously, if seasonal included) - looks like CLE has around 32 nonstop destinations after the UAL revisions... So, we go from fairly decent on nonstops to "not even Indy".. Not sure much more could be cut...  given what the other cities noted above have.

 

oh boy...

United doesn't even have a good rep in Chicago IMO. Most of my friends that fly a lot for work try to use American. United is a mess, I knew they would bring down Continental which had high customer ratings before the merger. United is always last. The building I live in has a lot of United Flight Attendants...they are a bitchy and catty breed. I listen to their stories while sitting by pool about how bad they treat people and take pride in it.

 

I used to fly them probably 6 - 8 times a year, they could give a crap even though I should be at least somehwhat in their target demo...Chicago professional, fly for leisure and work, single...etc.  Unless you are the highest level, they don't care about you at all.

This actually surprised me.  I don't believe that CLE was unprofitable either, at least if it were utilized correctly.  CLE was profitable in CAL era...Kellner, Smisek's predecessor said so.  It was profitable at the time of the merger...the accountants said so and so did Corday the OH AG.  I think it was made unprofitable by keeping it small.  A hub requires a large economy on scale to make it work.  200 flights a day which rely totally on O&D won't work.  Besides, according to gov't data, CLE's yields are way up there.  No, I think the fix was in to de-hub CLE the more I think of it. 

 

I was totally wrong in my assumptions about the new UAL.  Maybe I just didn't want to acknowledge the writing on the wall.

 

On the flip side, fares should lower somewhat eventually.  Also, other carriers might step in on some of the routes.  This could free CLE to make deals for Int'l service.  And UAL will keep CLE a significant focus city...

 

 

Anyone want to start an airline????

I didn't see the link posted yet but saw references to it - here it is:

 

http://ink-live.com/emagazines/hemispheres-dossier/1562/february-2014/#1

 

^Ah yes, the dossier.  The timing of that was no coincidence.  It was the "you're fired, enjoy the fruitcake" parting gift.

Question for those more familiar with other forms of transit such as Amtrak/Greyhound. In other cities that this has happened has demand for train and bus service increased. Would Amtrak for example add service to those cities affected by the hub closure? And if so would that make the case for a Transportation Center stronger.

 

 

See my response at:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2068.msg695162.html#msg695162

This is a bad deal for the city in terms of revenue on connecting flights but probably a good thing for consumers in terms of fares and finally the possibility for some Int'l service to Europe.  At some point the laws of supply & demand will take over and other airlines will fill voids that United forcibly created or will now be leaving behind.  Hopefully the city is aggressive in working with other airlines in finding optimal solutions.

 

Any hopes for needed significant upgrades to Hopkins are all but dashed though.

 

Good riddance to United though, hated them prior to the merger and hated them even more post merger.  Terrible service on the ground, in the air, and everything had to go through two of the worst service airports in the country, EWR & ORD.

Someone help me out here.  Couldn't an airline using a hub-and-spoke network literally have a hub anywhere and it wouldn't matter much whether or not the locals used the airline?  A hub is simply where passengers make flight connections, with most of these passengers being from other cities.  So the "profitability" of that hub is reliant on other factors mostly beyond a locality's control.  Factors (such as MD88 said above) like whether or not the airline actually wants to have a hub in said city. 

 

An example might be FedEx and their operations "hub" in Memphis.  Of course Memphis is centrally-located which is a plus, but 99% (I'm guessing, but it's the vast majority) of the packages that FedEx routs through Memphis are from elsewhere in the United States.  There is a slightly different dynamic for airlines of course, but the same idea seems to apply if we're talking about a hub-and-spoke network, right?

 

I can't remember where I heard or read this, but someone mentioned yesterday that United may be using this as a ploy to get a sweetheart deal from Cleveland officials regarding taxes, airport renovations, etc.

Something just doesn't make sense, in the numbers at least - 5 years ago when the merger occurred, continental was profitable at CLE (according to what MD88 said above with the state AG and continental CEO vouching). Then yesterday, united's letter says they have been losing tens of millions of dollars annually for over a decade at CLE as a hub. So who's lying here? Or is the truth somewhere in between?

 

There's an article on Crains in regards to GCP aggressively courting other airlines to make up the losses from this. I just hope they can. (sorry, I'm on my phone but I'll find the link later)

Question, how, as some have posted above, does losing the UA connecting feed IMPROVE CLE's chances of securing international flights?

Here is the statement from UA to it's CLE employees.

 

Dear Cleveland co-worker:

 

I want to let you know that we have made the difficult decision to substantially reduce our flying from Cleveland. We will make this reduction in stages beginning in April.

I wanted you to know this information before the press found out, but unfortunately they found out earlier than we planned. I apologize for this getting in the press before we were able to tell you directly.

Our hub in Cleveland hasn’t been profitable for over a decade, and has generated tens of millions of dollars of annual losses in recent years. We simply cannot continue to bear these losses.

No city has been more supportive of its hub carrier, and no group of employees has been more dedicated to providing great service, but the demand for hub-level connecting flying through Cleveland simply isn’t there. Ultimately, we can’t create demand, but we do have a responsibility to react to it. We must make the right business decisions, even when those decisions are painful, so we can continue to compete effectively and invest appropriately in our business.

While our decision to reduce our flying was driven by our continued losses in Cleveland, the timing of the flight reductions has been accelerated by industry-wide effects of new federal regulations that impact us and our regional partner flying. Those new regulations have caused mainline airlines to hire regional pilots, while simultaneously significantly reducing the pool of new pilots from which regional carriers themselves can hire. Although this is an industry issue, it directly affects us and requires us to reduce our regional partner flying, as several of our regional partners are beginning to have difficulty flying their schedules due to reduced new pilot availability. We need to reduce that flying in our most unprofitable markets, which unfortunately are out of Cleveland.

As a result, we will be reducing our average daily departures from Cleveland by around 60%. We expect to be able to keep almost all of our mainline departures (reducing only one of our 26 peak day mainline departures), but will need to reduce our regional departures from Cleveland by over 70%. Together, this will reduce our capacity (available seat miles) out of Cleveland by around 36%. We will make these reductions in roughly one-third increments in each of early April, May and June.

When the schedule reductions are fully implemented in June, we plan to offer 72 peak-day flights from Cleveland, and serve 20 destinations from Cleveland on a non-stop basis, including to all our hubs, and to key business markets like LGA, DCA and BOS. We will also serve from Cleveland on a non-stop basis key leisure markets, like FLL, MCO, TPA and RSW. Importantly, our new schedule out of Cleveland will cover 58% of the current Cleveland-originating domestic passenger demand on a non-stop basis, and will permit Cleveland residents to fly to almost every one of the destinations they fly to today, by connecting over one or more of our other hubs.

We expect to be able to keep our pilot and flight attendant bases in Cleveland, because we anticipate being able to keep substantially all of our mainline departures from Cleveland. We also expect to be able to keep all of our current technical operations in Cleveland, because we anticipate having the opportunity to work on the mainline aircraft. However, since we handle our regional partners’ flying above and below the wing in Cleveland, we will be forced to reduce staffing in airport operations and in catering because of the significant reduction in regional partner flying. We currently expect a reduction in force affecting up to 430 airport operations positions and approximately 40 catering personnel in Cleveland. Those reductions in force will likely begin in June. Each employee will be receiving detailed information relating to these reductions in the coming weeks. Affected airport operations employees may have system displacement options or other opportunities to maintain employment with United, and we will work with the IAM leadership to explore other programs that may mitigate the impact of these reductions on IAM-represented airport employees.

While we cannot change the outcome, we will take every action we can to implement these reductions in a manner that upholds our culture. Throughout this difficult process, we are committed to treating our people with the same level of openness, dignity and respect that our Cleveland co-workers have shown our customers and each other over the years. Our HR team is working hard to support you, and will be providing you with answers and assistance over the coming weeks and months.

I regret that we will be forced to reduce staffing in Cleveland, but we have no choice, given the level of continued losses we have suffered in Cleveland, the pressure that the new federal regulations have placed on our regional partners, and our reduction in regional flying. I know that these changes will be difficult for many of you, and this outcome is not what any of us wanted.

 

Sincerely,

Jeff

The thing that drives me nuts is the number of people in Cleveland that do not know how to handle loss/change.  Its like they sit around and wait for something bad to happen so they can just bash the city and region.  PIck yourselves up, be a part of the solution and move forward.  Do you think when large cities lose employers, they sit around and sulk about it and feel bad?  Chicago lost AON, who has a skyscraper in their city.  There are a large number of outstanding go getters here, but the fat that this region needs to cut (whiney downers) is very large.  GReat cities with great people take the change, adjust and move forward.

With virtually all of the Embraer regional jet flights getting killed, seems like the prudent thing would be to shutter concourse A and/or B, and move American, Delta and Air Canada over to Concourse D.  Maybe take this as a long-term opportunity to rebuild a new concourse to replace A and B, or simply tear them down given how totally obsolete and crappy they are.

I didn't see the link posted yet but saw references to it - here it is:

 

http://ink-live.com/emagazines/hemispheres-dossier/1562/february-2014/#1

 

 

All I can visualize are the United executives laughing as I'm reading this thing... Kind of taints the enjoyment of the read.

The news that United is pulling its hub out of Cleveland is an opportunity to go before the Cleveland business community and tell them that a) the airlines are retreating and won't be coming back and that b) there is a solution: Intercity passenger rail, but that they will have to work hard to make that happen and finally, c) that unless they become actively involved, Cleveland will become a third-rate destination.

Anyone care to speculate how this May impact southwest/air tran?  will they grow at Hopkins to fill the void, or remain at CAK?