This is going to be hell for a while.

 

Perhaps this will persuade the city to invest in the terminal.  Move all flights to CD and renovate A into a full international terminal.  Then use the Clinic, GCP, fortune 500s, to go after direct international service.

 

^ Wait, why, exactly, is this going to be hell? Did you do a lot of flying to Flint and Erie, MTS?

^^I am in no way an expert in this field at all...however, it would seem to me that international flights are even more of a long shot now that we are no longer a hub and there are not "feeder cities" to Hopkins.  Even when we had the hub and the planes coming in from smaller markets the airlines did not seem to think it was worth while to initiate international business from Hopkins but simply rely on their other hubs.  Now that it would simply be the regional population, I would think any business model (even with a great terminal) would not allow for international flights, especially with so many other options.

Well that didn't take long!

 

Frontier just announced that they'll be starting non stop Cleveland-Seattle service this summer as well as non stop Cleveland-Orlando service.

 

Hopefully the first of many new low cost carriers expanding in Cleveland!

 

The Orlando flight will be year round, 4x per week. The Seattle flight is seasonal, 3x per week.

 

They also announced that they are increasing service to Denver from 5x per week to 12x.

 

I expect we'll be hearing a similar announcement from Southwest before too long. And it's a pretty safe bet the legacy carriers will be bulking up their schedules as well, with bigger planes, greater frequencies, and hopefully a new destination or two (AA/US to Phoenix?).

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure on Southwest swooping in off the bat.  CVG lost tons of Delta flights long ago, and we still don't have Southwest service yet. 

 

Good news that Frontier is there. 

^^PIT, CVG, RDU, AUS, et. al would beg to differ.

^^I am in no way an expert in this field at all...however, it would seem to me that international flights are even more of a long shot now that we are no longer a hub and there are not "feeder cities" to Hopkins.  Even when we had the hub and the planes coming in from smaller markets the airlines did not seem to think it was worth while to initiate international business from Hopkins but simply rely on their other hubs.  Now that it would simply be the regional population, I would think any business model (even with a great terminal) would not allow for international flights, especially with so many other options.

 

This is not true. 

I wouldn't be so sure on Southwest swooping in off the bat.  CVG lost tons of Delta flights long ago, and we still don't have Southwest service yet. 

 

 

We already have quite a few Southwest flights.  Second largest carrier at CLE.

 

 

Great news re:  Frontier.  I expect Southwest to beef up service as well.

^Whoops.  Never mind then.  ;)

^ Wait, why, exactly, is this going to be hell? Did you do a lot of flying to Flint and Erie, MTS?

  I do not, but there may be business or leisure travelers that will now have to transfer in DTW or ORD.

^^I am in no way an expert in this field at all...however, it would seem to me that international flights are even more of a long shot now that we are no longer a hub and there are not "feeder cities" to Hopkins.  Even when we had the hub and the planes coming in from smaller markets the airlines did not seem to think it was worth while to initiate international business from Hopkins but simply rely on their other hubs.  Now that it would simply be the regional population, I would think any business model (even with a great terminal) would not allow for international flights, especially with so many other options.

CLE has a strong O&D.  Just because we do not have a hub that does not mean we cannot support direct international flight.  Look at Boston.  A lot of airlines are moving away from true hubs to point to point service.

 

I would hope the city would go after JetBlue and Virgin, to put pressure on United and other legacy carriers and increase frequencies to the larger coast cities, which would then make the Southwest affect work here.

 

Alaska doesn't fly here, Cleveland could see if they would be interested in creating a focus city or hub here.  This would be a new market for JetBlue and Virgin  JetBlue had code sharing with international carriers. The city/county/NEOhio need to work collaboratively to leverage the new Convention Center and Medical Mart.  Not to mention fill the new hotel rooms coming online.

 

I wouldn't be so sure on Southwest swooping in off the bat.  CVG lost tons of Delta flights long ago, and we still don't have Southwest service yet. 

 

Good news that Frontier is there. 

 

Didn't Delta lease a lot of unused gates at CVG, presumably to keep a competitor out?

Well that didn't take long!

 

Frontier just announced that they'll be starting non stop Cleveland-Seattle service this summer as well as non stop Cleveland-Orlando service.

 

Hopefully the first of many new low cost carriers expanding in Cleveland!

And Trenton, NJ.  Now Christie can visit  NE Ohio corrupt politicians!

Looks like more good news is about to be released in terms of regained flights. If you go to Delta's website, they now list non stops between Cleveland - Indianapolis as well as Cleveland - Raleigh/Durham beginning this June.

 

These are, of course, flights United is dumping this spring.

 

Looks like more good news is about to be released in terms of regained flights. If you go to Delta's website, they now list non stops between Cleveland - Indianapolis as well as Cleveland - Raleigh/Durham beginning this June.

 

These are, of course, flights United is dumping this spring.

 

I guess I finally need to give in and get frequent flyer accounts for SkyTeam and OneWorld airlines........

Not sure if Virgin America would really make use of Hopkins, their market is very West Coast oriented with the East Coast being their Gateways to Heathrow.  Now with the congestion throughout the northeast it could make sense to fly out of CLE as reliever from NYC, provided that the Customs facilities are updated. 

 

Still surprised with Eaton's merger with Cooper (?), and now being "Headquartered" in Dublin that we have not been able to get a direct flight there.  Dublin is no London or Paris, but it does seem like there is a built in market.

 

The bigger issue with Europe bound flights is that Cleveland is right on the limit of what a lot of the planes that would be flying out of CLE can reach.  It is about 3,900 miles CLE->LHR.

 

I wouldn't be so sure on Southwest swooping in off the bat.  CVG lost tons of Delta flights long ago, and we still don't have Southwest service yet. 

 

Good news that Frontier is there. 

 

Didn't Delta lease a lot of unused gates at CVG, presumably to keep a competitor out?

 

Yeah, I think they maintained their lease on gates that they were not actually using. 

 

CVG has done a nice job in terms of infrastructure and it seems to be paying off.  They consolidated all non-Delta carriers into Concourse A and re-did that one.  Since then Frontier and Allegiant have arrived, and I am sure they are hoping for SW or JetBlue. 

Not sure if Virgin America would really make use of Hopkins, their market is very West Coast oriented with the East Coast being their Gateways to Heathrow.  Now with the congestion throughout the northeast it could make sense to fly out of CLE as reliever from NYC, provided that the Customs facilities are updated. 

 

Still surprised with Eaton's merger with Cooper (?), and now being "Headquartered" in Dublin that we have not been able to get a direct flight there.  Dublin is no London or Paris, but it does seem like there is a built in market.

 

The bigger issue with Europe bound flights is that Cleveland is right on the limit of what a lot of the planes that would be flying out of CLE can reach.  It is about 3,900 miles CLE->LHR.

Remember The various Virgin airlines, do to regulations, are not connected.  I'm not saying they need to be a full hub but a Midwest focus city to business destinations, top O&D Markets and Leisure destinations were LCC thrive like Orlando, FLL, NoLa, LAS.  The more options and Flights we have the better the pricing.

Looks like more good news is about to be released in terms of regained flights. If you go to Delta's website, they now list non stops between Cleveland - Indianapolis as well as Cleveland - Raleigh/Durham beginning this June.

 

These are, of course, flights United is dumping this spring.

 

 

The IND flight almost makes no sense.  It's an early morning departure from CLE and a mid-morning return.  this clearly isn't aimed at the biz traveller

Cleveland.com reported the new Delta Connection flights to IND and RDU today.  I wonder if they got it from UO.  :clap: :lol:

DAL will start CLE=BDL on june 5

Cleveland.com reported the new Delta Connection flights to IND and RDU today.  I wonder if they got it from UO.  :clap: :lol:

 

That's because UO is a bundle of awesomeness.

DAL will start CLE=BDL on june 5

 

A daily round trip? 

 

Some of these flight need to be at least two round trips.  It's interesting to see DL, be the first to add flights.  I would have thought AA/US would be first.    I'm still interested to find out who these "many carriers" the Airport spoke with and what WN, B6 & VX are planning?

DAL will start CLE=BDL on june 5

 

A daily round trip? 

 

Some of these flight need to be at least two round trips.  It's interesting to see DL, be the first to add flights.  I would have thought AA/US would be first.    I'm still interested to find out who these "many carriers" the Airport spoke with and what WN, B6 & VX are planning?

 

One daily r/t on the BDL side.

 

depart BDL:  07:00

 

depart CLE:  18:50

 

This is clearly aimed at the BDL market though i wonder where the CRJ700 goes after arriving in CLE.  Maybe more to come?

 

On another note SWA releases their schedule tomorrow.  Wonder if they will add anything?  PHX perhaps?  LAS?

DAL will start CLE=BDL on june 5

 

A daily round trip? 

 

Some of these flight need to be at least two round trips.  It's interesting to see DL, be the first to add flights.  I would have thought AA/US would be first.    I'm still interested to find out who these "many carriers" the Airport spoke with and what WN, B6 & VX are planning?

 

One daily r/t on the BDL side.

 

depart BDL:  07:00

 

depart CLE:  18:50

 

This is clearly aimed at the BDL market though i wonder where the CRJ700 goes after arriving in CLE.  Maybe more to come?

 

On another note SWA releases their schedule tomorrow.  Wonder if they will add anything?  PHX perhaps?  LAS?

 

Hence my question.  It's seems odd, they would have the plane idle for that long.  There has got to be another destination in the works.  Delta adjusts it's scedules closer to the 60 day mark, so possibly DTW or CVG for the plane?

 

It would be nice if WN added atleast two RT CLE to LAX, LAS, HOU, DAL, MSY, FLL, BWI, PHL, OAK, SLC, PHX, STL.  It's not going to help frequent flyers, but there would be city pair connections.

DAL will start CLE=BDL on june 5

 

A daily round trip? 

 

Some of these flight need to be at least two round trips.  It's interesting to see DL, be the first to add flights.  I would have thought AA/US would be first.    I'm still interested to find out who these "many carriers" the Airport spoke with and what WN, B6 & VX are planning?

 

One daily r/t on the BDL side.

 

depart BDL:  07:00

 

depart CLE:  18:50

 

This is clearly aimed at the BDL market though i wonder where the CRJ700 goes after arriving in CLE.  Maybe more to come?

 

On another note SWA releases their schedule tomorrow.  Wonder if they will add anything?  PHX perhaps?  LAS?

 

Hence my question.  It's seems odd, they would have the plane idle for that long.  There has got to be another destination in the works.  Delta adjusts it's scedules closer to the 60 day mark, so possibly DTW or CVG for the plane?

 

It would be nice if WN added atleast two RT CLE to LAX, LAS, HOU, DAL, MSY, FLL, BWI, PHL, OAK, SLC, PHX, STL.  It's not going to help frequent flyers, but there would be city pair connections.

 

I doubt CVG of DTW.  Maybe an MSP upguage?  Does a CRJ700 have the legs for SLC?  Better watch the loads for summer ops from SLC - hot n high!

 

I think if WN adds anything it will be phx and las.  They've had plenty of opportunity to add in the past and haven't.  In other stronger markets they were never afraid of a hub carrier.  They do quite well from CAK plus the costs at CAK are much less.

 

Looks like the CR7s go back where they came from.  I don't see much of a pattern forming yet. 

 

The CR7 range is around 1650 mi. and the CR9 range is around 1760 mi.  SLC to CLE is 1568 mi.  I am pretty sure DL operated a CR9 on that route in the past seasonally, and an MD90 the rest of the year.

 

the acronyms/abbreviations in this thread are driving me nuts

Cleveland Hopkins director says ultra-low-cost carriers expressing interest

By Alison Grant, The Plain Dealer

on March 03, 2014 at 7:30 AM, updated March 03, 2014 at 7:58 AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- About 15 years ago as Southwest Airlines began to really hit its business stride, airports where it launched service would experience what the industry called the "Southwest effect."

 

Fares on other carriers would decline on routes that Southwest picked up, as competitors fought to stay abreast of the upstart airline out of Texas.

 

United Airlines' decision to end about two-thirds of its flights out of Cleveland Hopkins International Airport has opened the door for the same phenomenon in Cleveland, Hopkins Director Ricky Smith said.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/03/cleveland_hopkins_director_say.html

I didn't get anything out of that article.

 

All I know is Hopkins is the only airport to be dehubbed twice, by the same airline!

 

DAL will start CLE=BDL on june 5

 

A daily round trip? 

 

Some of these flight need to be at least two round trips.  It's interesting to see DL, be the first to add flights.  I would have thought AA/US would be first.    I'm still interested to find out who these "many carriers" the Airport spoke with and what WN, B6 & VX are planning?

 

One daily r/t on the BDL side.

 

depart BDL:  07:00

 

depart CLE:  18:50

 

This is clearly aimed at the BDL market though i wonder where the CRJ700 goes after arriving in CLE.  Maybe more to come?

 

On another note SWA releases their schedule tomorrow.  Wonder if they will add anything?  PHX perhaps?  LAS?

 

Hence my question.  It's seems odd, they would have the plane idle for that long.  There has got to be another destination in the works.  Delta adjusts it's scedules closer to the 60 day mark, so possibly DTW or CVG for the plane?

 

It would be nice if WN added atleast two RT CLE to LAX, LAS, HOU, DAL, MSY, FLL, BWI, PHL, OAK, SLC, PHX, STL.  It's not going to help frequent flyers, but there would be city pair connections.

 

WN had a CLE-STL non-stop until about two years ago.  After that, they only maintained one "1-stop, no plane change" route per day either through BWI or MDW.

the acronyms/abbreviations in this thread are driving me nuts

 

x2

 

I had to Google BDL.

 

And WN? Had to Google that, too. Howinthehellis WN the acronym for Southwest Airlines? I thought it was SWA?

the acronyms/abbreviations in this thread are driving me nuts

 

x2

 

I had to Google BDL.

 

And WN? Had to Google that, too. Howinthehellis WN the acronym for Southwest Airlines? I thought it was SWA?

 

Those are the two letter airline designators.  For instance, JetBlue is B6.

Those are the two letter airline designators.  For instance, JetBlue is B6.

 

Well, I hate 'em.  :whip:

WN is the airline code used by the airline trade group IATA

SWA is the airline code used by the airline trade group ICAO

 

There's a long history behind the function of the 2 letter designators but for the passenger side they are primarily used to denote an airline on baggage tags.

MD88PILOT posted the cle-bdl flight on 3/1, two days before cleveland.com posted it..  Bet they are seeing it here first.  :wink2:

MD88PILOT posted the cle-bdl flight on 3/1, two days before cleveland.com posted it..  Bet they are seeing it here first.  :wink2:

 

In all fairness, this was loaded in our res system on 2/28 and i don't think there was a press release at all.  We seem to be adding CLE points with little fanfare.  WN released their newest sched on 3/3 and looks like the only addition to CLE is year round LAS service.  As I've previously stated, with between 70 and 80 flights per day, UA still controls the market and pricing power - especially to the n/s destinations they continue to serve.  Also, as in the past, WN does not seem to have a desire to undercut UA on price in those jointly served markets.  They have CAK for that and even CAK's fares on WN aren't that much lower.  With time to tinker with their sched, WN may add PHX back.

WN is the airline code used by the airline trade group IATA

SWA is the airline code used by the airline trade group ICAO

 

There's a long history behind the function of the 2 letter designators but for the passenger side they are primarily used to denote an airline on baggage tags.

 

How about we make a rule to use full names when abbrv.'s aren't obvious (excluding anything specifically Ohio related, like CMH/CVG which if we don't know we should). I immediately though WN was a typo for NW, therefore Delta. Who the hell has time to learn this IATA ICAO sh!t?

MD88PILOT posted the cle-bdl flight on 3/1, two days before cleveland.com posted it..  Bet they are seeing it here first.  :wink2:

 

In all fairness, this was loaded in our res system on 2/28 and i don't think there was a press release at all.  We seem to be adding CLE points with little fanfare.  WN released their newest sched on 3/3 and looks like the only addition to CLE is year round LAS service.  As I've previously stated, with between 70 and 80 flights per day, UA still controls the market and pricing power - especially to the n/s destinations they continue to serve.  Also, as in the past, WN does not seem to have a desire to undercut UA on price in those jointly served markets.  They have CAK for that and even CAK's fares on WN aren't that much lower.  With time to tinker with their sched, WN may add PHX back.

Is it possible DL, had intention to introduce this flight prior to UA's decision to dehub?

WN is the airline code used by the airline trade group IATA

SWA is the airline code used by the airline trade group ICAO

 

There's a long history behind the function of the 2 letter designators but for the passenger side they are primarily used to denote an airline on baggage tags.

 

How about we make a rule to use full names when abbrv.'s aren't obvious (excluding anything specifically Ohio related, like CMH/CVG which if we don't know we should). I immediately though WN was a typo for NW, therefore Delta. Who the hell has time to learn this IATA ICAO sh!t?

WN is the airline code used by the airline trade group IATA

SWA is the airline code used by the airline trade group ICAO

 

There's a long history behind the function of the 2 letter designators but for the passenger side they are primarily used to denote an airline on baggage tags.

 

How about we make a rule to use full names when abbrv.'s aren't obvious (excluding anything specifically Ohio related, like CMH/CVG which if we don't know we should). I immediately though WN was a typo for NW, therefore Delta. Who the hell has time to learn this IATA ICAO sh!t?

WN is the airline code used by the airline trade group IATA

SWA is the airline code used by the airline trade group ICAO

 

There's a long history behind the function of the 2 letter designators but for the passenger side they are primarily used to denote an airline on baggage tags.

 

How about we make a rule to use full names when abbrv.'s aren't obvious (excluding anything specifically Ohio related, like CMH/CVG which if we don't know we should). I immediately though WN was a typo for NW, therefore Delta. Who the hell has time to learn this IATA ICAO sh!t?

 

No beef with that but the terms aren't "shit" for people that work inside the industry.

I don't think I've seen this posted, but I stumbled on this in-depth analysis on the economics of Cleveland's de-hubbing conducted by Aspire Aviation.  Some highlights:

 

"Network marginalisation

Prior to the merger, Cleveland would have likely remained a Continental hub in perpetuity. In Continental’s network, alongside hubs in Newark and Houston, Cleveland served an essential role. It was Continental’s only effective way to connect passengers to and from the Midwest, a region of between 65 and 80 million people depending on the exact boundaries used. Even if the hub was not spectacularly profitable on a standalone operating basis: it was marginally profitable in 2007, running sub-0.8% operating margins against 5.5%-plus for Newark and Houston, its contribution to the network was essential to maintaining Continental’s base of lucrative frequent flyers and corporate contracts.

 

Once the merger occurred, however, the new United had a hub just 315 miles to the west at Chicago O’hare that had a local origin and destination (O&D) traffic base that was more than five and a half times as large. Chicago O’Hare also had three times as many daily departures and four to five times as much capacity, which meant that it could handle the same connections geographically as Cleveland, with better aircraft operating costs as the larger O&D traffic base allowed United to operate larger aircraft, which have lower costs per available seat mile (CASM), and better costs overall since the fixed costs of an admittedly larger O’Hare hub are spread over so-many more flights that on a per-ASM or per-passenger basis, it is cheaper to send a connection over O’Hare. Overall, Aspire Aviation estimates that this cost advantage on connections totals between 7-9%, a major advantage for an airline such as United that most recently produced a 3.3% operating margin in 2013.

 

And as 50-seat regional jet CASM increases outpaced the industry average, Cleveland became an increasingly expensive hub to connect passengers through..."

 

"Expensive aircraft

The most common thread amongst airports that have been de-hubbed is an over-reliance on regional jets to feed the hub. For example, 62.7% of Pittsburgh’s peak departures were regional jets and small aircraft while the figure was 72.8% at Cincinnati and 68.1% at St. Louis. In 2013, the figure was 85.5% for Cleveland. In particular 50-seat regional jets have been hammered by increasing maintenance costs due to the ageing nature of the fleet as well as the permanently higher fuel price level, although it is projected to moderate or even decline over the next few years... "

 

"Examining the data

...In his letter, United chief executive Jeff Smisek stated, “No city has been more supportive of its hub carrier, and no group of employees has been more dedicated to providing great service, but the demand for hub-level connecting flying through Cleveland simply isn’t there.”

 

The latter part of his statement is true, but it could have been clarified better as “the demand for hub-level connecting flying at higher fares relative to Chicago O’Hare simply isn’t there.” The first portion of the statement also holds merit, Cleveland residents certainly spent more on flying United, with O&D revenue growing an aggregate 24.2% despite a 45.2% weighted increase in O&D fares charged. These figures are skewed, however, by the addition of pre-merger United Airlines traffic to Washington-Dulles, Chicago O’Hare, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Denver.

 

Total revenues for the hub declined 11.2% from 2007 to 2013, which is close to 25% in real terms. Moreover, international revenues certainly declined with the elimination of several routes such as Cleveland-Nassau and Cleveland-London Gatwick. Aspire Aviation‘s analysis extended to margins, and it is estimated that the Cleveland hub lost money in both 2007 and 2013. In 2013, Aspire Aviation found that the hub was marginally profitable during the third-quarter with operating margin between 0-0.5%, while for the full year, margins were between -2.5 and -3.0%, validating Smisek’s claims. The elimination of the Cleveland hub is therefore margin-positive for United, both due to direct reduction in losses, and indirect pricing effects of removing capacity from the market. Overall, it is reasonable to predict that the Cleveland de-hubbing will add between US$55-65 million annually to United’s bottom line, contributing about 15 basis points of margin improvement."

 

There is additional information and segments, and data tables to support the analysis at this link.

 

http://www.aspireaviation.com/2014/02/20/united-cleveland-dehubbing/

 

This seems like a reasonable summary of events since 2007, but I am in no way qualified to really understand everything behind this study.  I was hoping our smart UO members connected with the aviation industry could look at this and say if it's a fair assessment of the factors that led to du-hubbing, or if not point out why.  What's done is done and we're moving forward, but I'd also like to know how changes in the airline industry are impacting CLE and other airports in medium sized cities...it really seems like we're getting squeezed out in a way that will hurt all but the largest cities.

No beef with that but the terms aren't "shit" for people that work inside the industry.

 

Is this an airline industry forum, though? Didn't think so.

 

I guess the answer to my question is "industry insiders," but it's not relevant enough to anyone else to merit the idea that these things should be general knowledge, which is my point. You're right it's not sh!t to industry insiders, but to everyone else it is trivia.

Remember, he's from "down south - AKA Cinci-tucky" so when reading posts in our forum, they may be a bit over his head.  Have patience with those that were educated in one room school houses. ROFLMAO!

 

Using jargon that's obscure to anyone who's not an insider in an industry only marginally related to this forum is not a mark of sophistication. It's just intentionally or negligently being simultaneously cryptic and obtuse.

AC will add a fourth daily CLE-YYZ in June.  I believe the aircraft is a DASH 8 which is what they use on their other frequencies.

 

AC = Air Canada

 

YYZ = Toronto

 

 

Thanks for the translation!

The only reason I know YYZ is because of Rush. ;)

 

But what is CLE?? :-o

^Holy Crap, I never put that together. I googled the song and they explained the whole morse code thing. My god, it all makes sense now. Must go listen again...NOW!

The only reason I know YYZ is because of Rush. ;)

 

But what is CLE?? :-o

^Holy Crap, I never put that together. I googled the song and they explained the whole morse code thing. My god, it all makes sense now. Must go listen again...NOW!

 

This public service announcement brought to you by UrbanOhio.

 

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Thanks for the translation!

 

Why not just say that Air Canada is adding extra flight from Toronto Pearson to Hopkins. Explaining the codes is just repetitive, no?

Every industry uses acronyms.  I appreciate getting the info and the opinion of someone who is in the industry.