August 8, 20177 yr Robert Kennedy (head of Port Control) still has the same air service guy that Ricky Smith had who has consistently failed to land any TATL service after CO pulled CDG and London. Even when UA finally announced they were closing the hub---which he had years of advance notice to get something in the works--he had nothing. Jackson will probably win the election. But if he doesn't, the new director will also be out unless he can quickly prove he's capable and the best way to demonstrate that is bringing in daily non-stop service to Europe. (the above got buried as I was slow in a response! so I thought I'd repost.)
August 8, 20177 yr In addition to the $800,000 in payments, which will be used in part for marketing, Wow will not have to pay landing fees for two years. Such waivers are accorded to all airlines starting new service from Pittsburgh. http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2016/11/07/Discount-airline-bringing-wow-prices-to-European-destinations/stories/201611070053 let's wait and see what happens when the Port Authority stops making those payments and starts charging for landing fees.
August 8, 20177 yr ^Where do you get this 10M number? Is that an industry standard, like 12k residents for a grocery store? It is an industry number that international carriers look for to determine if there is enough revenue out of a city. If your airport can hit the 10 million mark in a year and hold or continue to gain passengers then you will see airlines start knocking. Even though Austin and New Orleans are more vacation destinations, they didn't get international service til they surpassed the 10 million mark. New Orleans surpassed 10 million in 2015 and Austin did in 2013. Both have multiple international carriers now. That's not entirely true. See Pittsburgh's airport as a prime example of international service with a passenger count below 10 million. Yes but Pittsburgh has given major subsidies and concessions to land Condor and WOW. I mean if the Cleveland business community wants to shell out money, then you will get intl service. It is an ongoing discussion in Cincinnati, we still have Paris and it does well thanks to GE. However we wont see additional routes until our numbers increase or someone in the region wants to guarantee seats on planes. Until then passenger numbers have to get higher at both airports. Norwegian, WOW, etc ULCC international service is targeting medium size cities along the east coast that can create traffic from bargain shoppers not wanting to pay to fly out of JFK PHL BOS etc.
August 8, 20177 yr ^ I believe that was when BP was still headquartered here if I remember correctly.
August 8, 20177 yr Right, we all know about subsidies. Meanwhile most are dropped because the route becomes profitable enough once it's marketed. Yet Cleveland's "strategy" of being a globally connected city is to be cheap and wait for some airline to beg to start service. Of course this would explain the current situation. Good luck!
August 8, 20177 yr When was the last time a flight from CLE went to direct to Europe? Continental actually wanted to build the hub up in 2007. That's why Paris was added. Then the merger happened and the global economy crashed. I think it was summer of 2009 was when Euro service ended.
August 8, 20177 yr ^ I believe that was when BP was still headquartered here if I remember correctly. Oh, wow. I thought I remembered a transatlantic flight during GWB's presidency. I would trust your memory more than mine though.
August 8, 20177 yr Right, we all know about subsidies. Meanwhile most are dropped because the route becomes profitable enough once it's marketed. Yet Cleveland's "strategy" of being a globally connected city is to be cheap and wait for some airline to beg to start service. Of course this would explain the current situation. Good luck! Yes, we all know the current situation. The passenger count is up 17% since 2015, and we've added a healthy number of non-stop flights. I'm so embarrassed!
August 8, 20177 yr Right, we all know about subsidies. Meanwhile most are dropped because the route becomes profitable enough once it's marketed. Yet Cleveland's "strategy" of being a globally connected city is to be cheap and wait for some airline to beg to start service. Of course this would explain the current situation. Good luck! Yes, we all know the current situation. The passenger count is up 17% since 2015, and we've added a healthy number of non-stop flights. I'm so embarrassed! When does it get embarrassing? Euro service to Omaha? Winnipeg? Buffalo? At what point? You realize, we're almost there.
August 8, 20177 yr Right, we all know about subsidies. Meanwhile most are dropped because the route becomes profitable enough once it's marketed. Yet Cleveland's "strategy" of being a globally connected city is to be cheap and wait for some airline to beg to start service. Of course this would explain the current situation. Good luck! Yes, we all know the current situation. The passenger count is up 17% since 2015, and we've added a healthy number of non-stop flights. I'm so embarrassed! When does it get embarrassing? Euro service to Omaha? Winnipeg? Buffalo? At what point? You realize, we're almost there. Buffalo could happen before you know it--it sees huge numbers of Canadians who find it easier, and cheaper, to drive over the border to Buffalo rather than go to YYZ for high fares and insane traffic getting there.
August 8, 20177 yr Right, we all know about subsidies. Meanwhile most are dropped because the route becomes profitable enough once it's marketed. Yet Cleveland's "strategy" of being a globally connected city is to be cheap and wait for some airline to beg to start service. Of course this would explain the current situation. Good luck! Yes, we all know the current situation. The passenger count is up 17% since 2015, and we've added a healthy number of non-stop flights. I'm so embarrassed! When does it get embarrassing? Euro service to Omaha? Winnipeg? Buffalo? At what point? You realize, we're almost there. Buffalo could happen before you know it--it sees huge numbers of Canadians who find it easier, and cheaper, to drive over the border to Buffalo rather than go to YYZ for high fares and insane traffic getting there. This doesn't bode well for Buffalo: Passenger count at Buffalo Niagara International Airport is down: bad for Western New York? http://www.wkbw.com/news/passenger-count-at-buffalo-niagara-international-airport-is-down-bad-for-western-new-york
August 8, 20177 yr Other than Detroit, Buffalo is the only city that Cleveland can make fun of.....just kidding. But its relevant: if BUF were to get int'l air service before CLE, while Cleveland metro is 4.5M people, it would be devastating blow to cleveland.
August 8, 20177 yr This is all blown out of proportion and is not "embarrassing". You can operate a fine airport and not have a Europe destination. Newsflash, cleveland isn't Chicago or NY. And can we wait and see how Pittsburgh does before we crown them the class of all airports. Just because they launch a TATL doesn't mean it's successful
August 8, 20177 yr This is all blown out of proportion and is not "embarrassing". You can operate a fine airport and not have a Europe destination. Newsflash, cleveland isn't Chicago or NY. And can we wait and see how Pittsburgh does before we crown them the class of all airports. Just because they launch a TATL doesn't mean it's successful Amen.
August 8, 20177 yr Additionally, neither pittsburgh nor Cincinnati have any domestic service to the Pacific Northwest. Maybe we shouldn't be so embarrassed
August 9, 20177 yr Additionally, neither pittsburgh nor Cincinnati have any domestic service to the Pacific Northwest. Maybe we shouldn't be so embarrassed Cincinnati has non-stop service to Seattle on Delta currently for $341. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 9, 20177 yr Additionally, neither pittsburgh nor Cincinnati have any domestic service to the Pacific Northwest. Maybe we shouldn't be so embarrassed Cincinnati has non-stop service to Seattle on Delta currently for $341. Plus Frontier just announced service to Seattle starting Spring of 2018 and with Amazon Prime hub happening at CVG, the airport is in talks with Alaska and Southwest for additional service to Pacific Northwest.
August 9, 20177 yr This is all blown out of proportion and is not "embarrassing". You can operate a fine airport and not have a Europe destination. Newsflash, cleveland isn't Chicago or NY. And can we wait and see how Pittsburgh does before we crown them the class of all airports. Just because they launch a TATL doesn't mean it's successful It's not blown out of proportion. I can tell you first hand, like I've said in the past, Cleveland is behind the eight-ball to get international service. How much service has Cleveland gotten since UA shut down Europe? That's why I get wound up about it, I know no Euro service is coming in the foreseeable future. I'm 95% sure that St. Louis and Indianapolis will see Euro service next. I do hope I'm wrong. Also, I'm more than a frequent flier and I have a ton of contacts in the industry. I advocate for Cleveland even though I'm here in DC and I rarely hear good things about the people running the airport there. Hopkins hit a new low with the recent snow removal fiasco and everyone, I mean everyone, in the industry remembers it including folks outside of the United States. It's not a matter of opinion to say that Hopkins perception is not OK. The city needs to get it's act together on this issue.
August 9, 20177 yr Additionally, neither pittsburgh nor Cincinnati have any domestic service to the Pacific Northwest. Maybe we shouldn't be so embarrassed Cincinnati has non-stop service to Seattle on Delta currently for $341. Plus Frontier just announced service to Seattle starting Spring of 2018 and with Amazon Prime hub happening at CVG, the airport is in talks with Alaska and Southwest for additional service to Pacific Northwest. Cincinnati's airport generates so much revenue from cargo the two airports aren't even comparable. CVG is a level above Hopkins, for sure.
August 9, 20177 yr Additionally, neither pittsburgh nor Cincinnati have any domestic service to the Pacific Northwest. Maybe we shouldn't be so embarrassed Cincinnati has non-stop service to Seattle on Delta currently for $341. Plus Frontier just announced service to Seattle starting Spring of 2018 and with Amazon Prime hub happening at CVG, the airport is in talks with Alaska and Southwest for additional service to Pacific Northwest. . CVG is a level above Hopkins, for sure. LOL.
August 9, 20177 yr ... I can tell you first hand, like I've said in the past, Cleveland is behind the eight-ball to get international service. How much service has Cleveland gotten since UA shut down Europe? That's why I get wound up about it, I know no Euro service is coming in the foreseeable future. I'm 95% sure that St. Louis and Indianapolis will see Euro service next. I do hope I'm wrong. The city needs to get it's act together on this issue. What disappoints me is that organizations like Destination Cleveland, Downtown Cleveland Alliance, Team NEO, etc. apparently have no interest in int'l air service. That is so incredibly short-sighted! They need reminding that one of the stated reasons Luxottica and Chiquita gave for leaving Cincinnati was lack of int'l air service. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
August 9, 20177 yr Additionally, neither pittsburgh nor Cincinnati have any domestic service to the Pacific Northwest. Maybe we shouldn't be so embarrassed Cincinnati has non-stop service to Seattle on Delta currently for $341. Plus Frontier just announced service to Seattle starting Spring of 2018 and with Amazon Prime hub happening at CVG, the airport is in talks with Alaska and Southwest for additional service to Pacific Northwest. . CVG is a level above Hopkins, for sure. LOL. Really? Explain to me how CLE is generating more revenue than Cincy. Please, I'd like to know.
August 9, 20177 yr This is blown out of proportion...mainly because the service from Hopkins seems to upset you more than the masses. WHO CARES? i get to 90% of my business trip destinations non stop. Its a clean airport, im seeing work done internally and externally and i can get a nice variety of food/drink when im there. Sure its disappointing United de-hubbed and they lost TATL, but move on. CLE is a stagnant population growth market who is clawing and scratching to get new businesses, we dont have what coast metros have. They cant support TATL right now and frankly, ill be shocked if Indy, St. Louis, Pittburgh (well see) can as well. I mean, honestly...you are telling me that a flight from Pittsburgh to freaking Iceland is going to sustain forever. Come on. This was an experiment...they cant route people through there and eventually not enough people will be going to Iceland routinely. It is what it is. Being a midmarket getting TATL service doesnt make you great...it makes you a test tube. I believe places like Nashville will hit, because people go there all the time. every weekend. Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Indy. come on. Getting TATL and losing it because you failed is a worse look than not getting it at all. When the time is right, i am sure Cleveland will aggressively push for the service. United isnt going to route people through here to go to Europe.
August 9, 20177 yr This is blown out of proportion...mainly because the service from Hopkins seems to upset you more than the masses. WHO CARES? i get to 90% of my business trip destinations non stop. Its a clean airport, im seeing work done internally and externally and i can get a nice variety of food/drink when im there. Sure its disappointing United de-hubbed and they lost TATL, but move on. CLE is a stagnant population growth market who is clawing and scratching to get new businesses, we dont have what coast metros have. They cant support TATL right now and frankly, ill be shocked if Indy, St. Louis, Pittburgh (well see) can as well. I mean, honestly...you are telling me that a flight from Pittsburgh to freaking Iceland is going to sustain forever. Come on. This was an experiment...they cant route people through there and eventually not enough people will be going to Iceland routinely. It is what it is. Being a midmarket getting TATL service doesnt make you great...it makes you a test tube. I believe places like Nashville will hit, because people go there all the time. every weekend. Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Indy. come on. Getting TATL and losing it because you failed is a worse look than not getting it at all. When the time is right, i am sure Cleveland will aggressively push for the service. United isnt going to route people through here to go to Europe. People speak with their wallets (and from an airport perspective, getting on a plane), and passenger counts are up. If they continue to rise, additional service/capacity will come, as will the revenue to begin to tackle projects. It is also likely that if the passenger and cargo flights continue to improve, the airport's bond rating will also improve, which I think will also continue to make the airport attractive for additional service. I find no reason to take an alarmist position... I may not be as frequent a flyer as some, but I average about 1-2 per month, and I don't find the airport to be a disappointment. I'd put it ahead of some, and behind others. At least it's not Bradley... that may be my personal least favorite of somewhat similar size.
August 9, 20177 yr Again, I'm telling you things from the horse's mouth. I'm not a Frequent Flier. The perception within the industry of Hopkins is, at best, below average. Those perceptions effect who serves the airport and how much revenue it generates. Hopkins underperforms because of this and is one of the primary reasons that international airlines avoid it. This isn't opinion, this is fact. Take it for what it's worth.
August 9, 20177 yr Really? Explain to me how CLE is generating more revenue than Cincy. Please, I'd like to know. Figures in $millions for 2016, taken fron FAA CATS data Source ............ CVG ..... CLE Passenger Rev .. $23.3 ... $81.5 Non-Pass Rev ..... 12.4 ..... 12.8 Non-Aviation Rev . 48.9 .... 48.7 Total Revs. ........... 84.7 ... 143.0 Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
August 9, 20177 yr Really? Explain to me how CLE is generating more revenue than Cincy. Please, I'd like to know. Figures in $millions for 2016, taken fron FAA CATS data Source ............ CVG ..... CLE Passenger Rev .. $23.3 ... $81.5 Non-Pass Rev ..... 12.4 ..... 12.8 Non-Aviation Rev . 48.9 .... 48.7 Total Revs. ........... 84.7 ... 143.0 There is no way that Cleveland is generating more cargo, which I'm assuming "non-pass" revenue is, than Cincinnati. The DHL move to Cincinnati alone dwarfs Cleveland and that's not including what's going on with Amazon. Is this including cargo? Something is weird in that picture.
August 9, 20177 yr Maybe CLE just charges more, resulting in more revenue. We do know that CLE has some of the highest landing fees in the country.
August 9, 20177 yr Again, I'm telling you things from the horse's mouth. I'm not a Frequent Flier. The perception within the industry of Hopkins is, at best, below average. Those perceptions effect who serves the airport and how much revenue it generates. Hopkins underperforms because of this and is one of the primary reasons that international airlines avoid it. This isn't opinion, this is fact. Take it for what it's worth. This is obviously your opinion because you wouldn't know a fact if it ran over you!! The bottom line is that Hopkins has done a decent replacing some of the flights it lost because of the hub closure. Hopefully international service will come as the airport continues to rebound. But for you to come on here and trash the airport every chance you get is getting ridiculous!!! Maybe it's getting a little too personal for you. Go find a hobby!!!
August 9, 20177 yr Audited Financials are available online and show the same thing. I know you and YABO are eager to jump on this all of sudden but there's something here not making sense. A write-off? In 2016, Fitch gave Cincy an upgraded rating of A+. CLE was BBB+. I'm telling you, Cincinnati is generating mondo revenue vs. Cleveland even if those figures don't show it.
August 9, 20177 yr Again, I'm telling you things from the horse's mouth. I'm not a Frequent Flier. The perception within the industry of Hopkins is, at best, below average. Those perceptions effect who serves the airport and how much revenue it generates. Hopkins underperforms because of this and is one of the primary reasons that international airlines avoid it. This isn't opinion, this is fact. Take it for what it's worth. This is obviously your opinion because you wouldn't know a fact if it ran over you!! The bottom line is that Hopkins has done a decent replacing some of the flights it lost because of the hub closure. Hopefully international service will come as the airport continues to rebound. But for you to come on here and trash the airport every chance you get is getting ridiculous!!! Maybe it's getting a little too personal for you. Go find a hobby!!! Is it possible to keep this civil?
August 9, 20177 yr You don't like the facts so now you're lashing out. It's a rather bad look honestly.
August 9, 20177 yr You don't like the facts so now you're lashing out. It's a rather bad look honestly. Right, can we keep it on topic. You can PM me. I'm not running away from this and I acknowledge the figures. I just don't think Fitch is going to drop an A+ on an airport generating less revenue than one with a BBB+ unless they know that airport is going to generate much more in the future. Is there a write off or something else?
August 9, 20177 yr AmRap I appreciate your contributions on this thread, but you lack any type of balance with your analysis on the airport. It's like something is personal at Hopkins for you. For me, I understand the shortcomings of the airport, namely lack of TATL and a poor customs area. But honestly, it's a dream airport for me. I can leave me house in Shaker Heights literally an hour before I'm suppose to board and still make my trips with time to get coffee and a bagel. My most miserable experiences traveling have occurred in places like Miami, Ohare, Dulles and Toronto where I show up 3-4 hours before my flight, it's complete bedlam, I'm nervous as hell and still almost miss my flight because of the awful hub customer service and security lines. It's like a trade off for me: less service destinations and ease of experience or more destinations and be miserable/waste more of my day
August 9, 20177 yr Audited Financials are available online and show the same thing. I know you and YABO are eager to jump on this all of sudden but there's something here not making sense. A write-off? In 2016, Fitch gave Cincy an upgraded rating of A+. CLE was BBB+. I'm telling you, Cincinnati is generating mondo revenue vs. Cleveland even if those figures don't show it. Really? Explain to me how Cincy is generating more revenue than CLE. Please, I'd like to know.
August 9, 20177 yr AmRap I appreciate your contributions on this thread, but you lack any type of balance with your analysis on the airport. It's like something is personal at Hopkins for you. For me, I understand the shortcomings of the airport, namely lack of TATL and a poor customs area. But honestly, it's a dream airport for me. I can leave me house in Shaker Heights literally an hour before I'm suppose to board and still make my trips with time to get coffee and a bagel. My most miserable experiences traveling have occurred in places like Miami, Ohare, Dulles and Toronto where I show up 3-4 hours before my flight, it's complete bedlam, I'm nervous as hell and still almost miss my flight because of the awful hub customer service and security lines. It's like a trade off for me: less service destinations and ease of experience or more destinations and be miserable/waste more of my day I appreciate your measured response over others but it's really, really not personal. Cleveland and NE Ohio is underserved.
August 9, 20177 yr There is no way that Cleveland is generating more cargo, which I'm assuming "non-pass" revenue is, than Cincinnati ... Is this including cargo? Something is weird in that picture. Again, in $millions, from FAA CATS data base. Non-passenger revenue .................. CVG ..... CLE Landing fees fm cargo ..................... $8.9 ..... $3.1 Landing fees GA and military ............. 0.0 ..... 2.3 FBO revenues .................................... 0.4 ..... 0.8 Cargo area and hangar rental ........... 2.6 ..... 5.7 Fuel sales and fees ............................0.0 ...... 0.2 Security reimb. from Feds .................. 0.4 ...... 0.6 Other ................................................. 0.2 ...... 0.0 Total .................................................$12.5 .... $12.8 (non-add due to rounding) The difference in bond ratings is because of debt. CVG has long-term debt of $46.5 million vs. CLE's $724.0 million. It should be noted that CLE has paid the debt down from $856 million two years ago, which contributed to S&P upgrading its bond outlook to stable from declining. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
August 9, 20177 yr Dougal can you pull up more than 2016? Can we see a set over five years? I really am curious.
August 9, 20177 yr There is no way that Cleveland is generating more cargo, which I'm assuming "non-pass" revenue is, than Cincinnati ... Is this including cargo? Something is weird in that picture. Again, in $millions, from FAA CATS data base. Non-passenger revenue .................. CVG ..... CLE Landing fees fm cargo ..................... $8.9 ..... $3.1 Landing fees GA and military ............. 0.0 ..... 2.3 FBO revenues .................................... 0.4 ..... 0.8 Cargo area and hangar rental ........... 2.6 ..... 5.7 Fuel sales and fees ............................0.0 ...... 0.2 Security reimb. from Feds .................. 0.4 ...... 0.6 Other ................................................. 0.2 ...... 0.0 Total .................................................$12.5 .... $12.8 (non-add due to rounding) Ohhh..OK that makes sense.
August 9, 20177 yr ^ I could, but that's a bunch of work. :-o Here's the source. Look at the Form 127 data https://cats.airports.faa.gov/Reports/reports.cfm Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
August 9, 20177 yr There is no way that Cleveland is generating more cargo, which I'm assuming "non-pass" revenue is, than Cincinnati ... Is this including cargo? Something is weird in that picture. Again, in $millions, from FAA CATS data base. Non-passenger revenue .................. CVG ..... CLE Landing fees fm cargo ..................... $8.9 ..... $3.1 Landing fees GA and military ............. 0.0 ..... 2.3 FBO revenues .................................... 0.4 ..... 0.8 Cargo area and hangar rental ........... 2.6 ..... 5.7 Fuel sales and fees ............................0.0 ...... 0.2 Security reimb. from Feds .................. 0.4 ...... 0.6 Other ................................................. 0.2 ...... 0.0 Total .................................................$12.5 .... $12.8 (non-add due to rounding) The difference in bond ratings is because of debt. CVG has long-term debt of $46.5 million vs. CLE's $724.0 million. It should be noted that CLE has paid the debt down from $856 million two years ago, which contributed to S&P upgrading its bond outlook to stable from declining. The did mention debt but said current revenues was the primary driver for the upgrade: http://www.lanereport.com/64154/2016/06/fitch-upgrades-cvgs-revenue-bonds-to-a/ COVINGTON, Ky. (June 8, 2016) — Fitch Ratings has upgraded Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport revenue bonds rating to A+ from an A-, citing “the airport’s measurably improved financial profile on a go-forward basis under its new five-year hybrid compensatory airline use agreement” as the reason for the upgrade. Fitch also pointed out as key rating drivers, CVG’s “continued stabilization of the airport’s origin and destination (O&D) traffic profile, at nearly 85 percent of 3.2 million total enplanements; large scale cargo services from DHL also diversify CVG’s aviation activity; and very low leverage as measured by both the airport traffic base and net cash flow, coupled with reduced debt service obligations.”
August 9, 20177 yr ^ I could, but that's a bunch of work. :-o Here's the source. Look at the Form 127 data https://cats.airports.faa.gov/Reports/reports.cfm Thanks Dougal. I didn't mean to make you work and appreciate the link. I'll check it out later.
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