8 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

I torn on this.  I don't think it 100% true.  There are business routes they have given up , such as CLE-BOS.

 

The mothballing of D was solely for the purpose of keeping another carrier from expanding with several banks of flights, example, Virgin America, now Alaska and Hawaiian.  American increases services here and there on cash routes to LGA, PHL & DCA.  But Southwest has done nothing here.

But was Boston truly high yield?  They used ER145 on that route. To be honest, im not sure what AA strategy is. Some of their adds to LGA from various cities is to protect slots i think. 

On 11/20/2019 at 6:52 AM, B767PILOT said:

United may have pulled out by the mid eighties, but Continental replaced them. Remember, that first drawdown was the result of a major market reallignment due to deregulation. Airlines were throwing darts at the map lol. We even had a, DFW hub

I deeply respected Continental for its CLE expansion and I aggressively supported them for their support of my hometown, albeit from the New York City area.

 

I replaced my AA flights out of LGA/JFK with Continental flights out of EWR instead, and it became my favorite airline. I was never a fan of Smisek though.

Edited November 21, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

7 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

It was obvious WAY before the merger, despite any lies UA may have to told the DOJ. The entire point of airline mergers --UA & CO, DL & NW, US and AA---is to gain market share and increase profits by cutting routes and jobs and forcing more passengers through fewer hubs.  The minute CO saved UA through the merger, UA had already had well-developed plans to kill its CLE hub. Yes, the Ohio AG made some noise but that was utterly pointless.  The AG said, you must maintain routes and jobs for two years. UA said sure, no problem! Cause it takes at least two years to integrate the two companies. It even took longer than two years. But, once in the clear, the ax fell. The Ohio AG thing was totally meaningless-- not sure if was a real sincere attempt at something (didn't seem like it) or just a publicity stunt (probably).

Smisek at Continental was negative on Cleveland well before the merger. Remember that previous management was going to increase flights by 30 per cent. Also, during the Cambell administration, Continental re upped its leases for a long period

That's exactly the reason why I wasn't a fan of his. Loved the airline, the CEO, not so much.

 

He had implied on several different occasions that CLE was problematic, unprofitable, etc.

 

I always thought that CLE relieved some of the traffic into/out of NYC airspace.  It's the worst, and if you add weather, you can expect delays of up to four hours.

Edited November 20, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

10 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

Smisek at Continental was negative on Cleveland well before the merger. Remember that previous management was going to increase flights by 30 per cent. Also, during the Cambell administration, Continental re upped its leases for a long period

A bell just went off.  I hope you're not a UAL 767 pilot?  If so, I still despise UAL.  If not, thanks for getting me to/from my destinations safely.

1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

A bell just went off.  I hope you're not a UAL 767 pilot?  If so, I still despise UAL.  If not, thanks for getting me to/from my destinations safely.

No, im with another line...

Now that I'm living in MIA, the inclination would be to fly AA for convenience, but these days I prefer Southwest or Delta.

@B767PILOT: LOL, are you related to MD88PILOT (with DL, I believe), who used to post here?

Yes. The MD88 was my old office

I think Smisek was also forced out as CEO and board chairman due to a scandal involving a "flight to nowhere" and the head of the Port Authority of NYNJ.

 

Karma

Edited November 20, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

15 hours ago, B767PILOT said:

No other carrier is going to step in the market in a meaningful way because UAL owns the market and would retaliate.  Thats why they never did anything with Concourse D. By making debt service payments and routine maintenence, they effectively mothballed a source of gate space. Plus there is a loyal Star Alliance cadre of passengers from which to draw

 

With United and having to connect through ORD or EWR all the time, I'm very close to moving to American.  But then I remember that American is really US Airways in disguise, and  the worst of the big 4 American carriers.   So I suck it up and stay United *alliance.  

I've been really impressed with Delta; what would appear to be a seemless integration of Northwest, good baggage handling and if I need to connect, I like flying through ATL. There are plenty of dining/boozing options on all of the concourses and I've grown to know the airport terminal very well. I've flown them all over the world with great FC/BC service. Domestically I also use Southwest.

Edited November 20, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

11 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

With United and having to connect through ORD or EWR all the time, I'm very close to moving to American.  But then I remember that American is really US Airways in disguise, and  the worst of the big 4 American carriers.   So I suck it up and stay United *alliance.  

I think it depends on where you're flying and at what time of the year.  When I fly JFK-LAX/DFW or MIA the AA flights are great.  Delta...not so much.  from LGA or CLE to ORD, lawd those are terrible flights.

Sounds like we all have our preferred options and that's great:

Ms2Sense can fly AA 

Cleburger can take UAL and

I can take DL/SW

Edited November 21, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

On 11/20/2019 at 9:14 AM, Frmr CLEder said:

I think Smisek was also forced out as CEO and board chairman due to a scandal involving a "flight to nowhere" and the head of the Port Authority of NYNJ.

 

Karma

Yes.  But that was just the icing on the cake. By the way, it was a Newark flight to somewhere in South Carolina. Weekend service that allowed a PA boardmember to commute to his weekend digs

9 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Sounds like we all have our preferred options and that's great:

Ms2Sense can fly AA 

Cleburger can take UAL and

I can take DL/SW

No love for Spirit ? ??

 

Speaking of, upthread folks were talking about possibly having a 'hub' for Frontier or Spirit, do folks think this is a reasonable idea? 

Edited November 21, 20195 yr by GISguy

20 minutes ago, GISguy said:

No love for Spirit ? ??

 

Speaking of, upthread folks were talking about possibly having a 'hub' for Frontier or Spirit, do folks think this is a reasonable idea? 

They dont really do the hub thing. More point to point stuff - hence infrequent service

I've never flown Spirit. They weren't in NYC when I lived there. They have a lot of flights in/out of FLL; AA dominates MIA, with other legacy US and international carriers.

 

How is Spirit?

2 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I've never flown Spirit. They weren't in NYC when I lived there. They have a lot of flights in/out of FLL; AA dominates MIA, with other legacy US and international carriers.

 

How is Spirit?

 

Not an enjoyable experience for a flight longer than 2 hours. Between Spirit and Frontier as LCCs with big presences in the area, I'd give the edge to Frontier given the choice between the two.

18 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I've never flown Spirit. They weren't in NYC when I lived there. They have a lot of flights in/out of FLL; AA dominates MIA, with other legacy US and international carriers.

 

How is Spirit?

 

It's a Greyhound/RTA of the sky, but if you're looking for a super cheap flight and understand what you get for the price, I don't think it's too bad. For instance, if you buy tickets at the airport (in advance or whatever), it'll save you upwards of 25 bucks each way - I used this a while back and got a flight to Dallas RT for like 85 dollars.

 

Flying on a 'major' carrier after Spirit truly feels like first class haha but cheap is cheap.

 

Edit: I also like to compare to where they get placed in the terminal and experience to like the illustrations of an angler fish - the dark deep corners of the airport lol I know I'm really selling it over here, it really isn't as bad as people make it out to be! (That goes for Frontier too).

 

 

Edited November 22, 20195 yr by GISguy

Does Spirit cancel flights for whatever reason like Frontier does, stranding people for 2 -4 days til the next flight that has space? I've heard about Frontier doing this, but never Spirit---that's one reason I never have flown Frontier at the fear of being screwed at the last minute. 

18 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I've never flown Spirit. They weren't in NYC when I lived there. They have a lot of flights in/out of FLL; AA dominates MIA, with other legacy US and international carriers.

 

How is Spirit?

 

As others have said - you get what you pay for. A lot of the complaints I see are people not keeping expectations realistic or reading the fine print (if Spirit can add a charge for a product/service, they will). If you're okay with basic (very basic) transportation, it's fine albeit certainly not spa-like for shorter flights (2ish hours). We've taken it to Vegas and had no complaints - on our last flight, we paid for exit row seats which I recommend for the leg room. It also turned out that the two window seats (next to me and diagonal left in front) were broken with big red "Do Not Occupy" decals. On one hand it was very much Greyhound of the Skies, on the other hand I had sooo much room to stretch my legs and store my bags, etc. ?

 

Regarding canceled flights - we've been fortunate but my understanding is that happens with Spirit/Frontier because they don't have an agreement with the non-ultra low cost carriers (any experts, please feel free to correct me).

31 minutes ago, Pugu said:

Does Spirit cancel flights for whatever reason like Frontier does, stranding people for 2 -4 days til the next flight that has space? I've heard about Frontier doing this, but never Spirit---that's one reason I never have flown Frontier at the fear of being screwed at the last minute. 

 

This does happen with Spirit as well, although once when there was a Boston to CLE cancellation, they routed through Florida to get passengers back the same day.  You'll get more luck if it's a flight that happens daily, as opposed to those 3 or 4 day a week flights.

It sounds like a good vacation airline, where you're trying to maintain your budget. I think I would be very upset though if I had planned a vacation, they cancelled and I was stranded for a few days. I may try them sometime out of FLL.  Bottom line: You get what you pay for and as long as expectations are properly aligned, there's little conflict.

Edited November 22, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

Spirit is great if you set your expectations. If you can get away with just bringing a small backpack you’ll save lots of money. Round trip direct to LA right now is like $130.

Edited November 22, 20195 yr by bumsquare

10 minutes ago, bumsquare said:

Spirit is great if you set your expectations. If you can get away with just bringing a small backpack you’ll save lots of money. Round trip direct to LA right now is like $130.

And I know I said it above, but seriously if you can buy at the airport (in advance) - avoiding their fees would bring that flight down to <$100. I've also never had problems with the gate agent taking on a reasonably stuffed (and compressed) backpack, granted ours care a lot less than some agents in other cities. Once you're on the flight (this goes for Spirit or Frontier) I've never seen a flight attendant get angry if you throw your bag above your seat.

Edited November 22, 20195 yr by GISguy

As mentioned upthread and the Ohio dual airport thread, several carriers are planning to use smaller Airbus A321XLR, single-aisle aircraft on new transcontinental routes; JetBlue and SAS are two carriers purchasing the new aircraft.  Can CLE be prepared to compete in this market?

 

From Discover on Google https://www.forbes.com/sites/grantmartin/2019/11/23/scandinavian-airlines-plans-transatlantic-flights-on-narrowbody-airbus-fleet/

Edited November 24, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

As mentioned upthread and the Ohio dual airport thread, several carriers are planning to use Airbus A321XLR, single-aisle aircraft on new transcontinental routes; JetBlue and SAS are two purchasing the new aircraft.  Can CLE be prepared to compete in this market?

 

From Discover on Google https://www.forbes.com/sites/grantmartin/2019/11/23/scandinavian-airlines-plans-transatlantic-flights-on-narrowbody-airbus-fleet/

Is there something that makes you believe that Cleveland is not prepared?  A321 aircraft family planes are already in service and can fly into and out of Cleveland

 

Who operates into and out of Cleveland is a different story.  That is solely up to a carrier.

They don't accomodate A321XLRs because they aren't yet commercially available. The question is:

When they are commercially available, will CLE be positioned (operationally or otherwise) to compete for those transcontinental routes into/out-of smaller markets?

Beginning June, UA will fly a 3rd daily on CLE-LAX. 

44 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

They don't accomodate A321XLRs because they aren't yet commercially available. The question is:

When they are commercially available, will CLE be positioned (operationally or otherwise) to compete for those transcontinental routes into/out-of smaller markets?

The A321XLR is so far only being scheduled to east coast cities from europe. I dont see this aircraft being used extensively across the pond. Taking SAS for example; there is vutually no O&D to Scandinavia from CLE. It would all be connections. Also, the premium seats would have to sell well and there is no Premium Economy on those planes.  If a premium flier has to connect anyway, they are going to do it in New York, Washington, Atlanta, etc and fly on a B777/A330. United's fliers did that in the hub days to London and Paris.  Rather than a NS from CLE to europe, they connected elsewhere for a better experience.  The A321 can work in an O&D heavy market such as Boston to London, NYC to London, etc. or hub to hub flying

Edited November 24, 20195 yr by B767PILOT

So in other words CLE is relegated to LCCs and connections to international destinations?

13 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

So in other words CLE is relegated to LCCs and connections to international destinations?

Not necessarily. But you need a healthy premium heavy O&D to cover the flight.  It isnt just about the number of passengers its also about where they sit and what they are willing to pay for thay seat. Long haul flying is expensive. The aircraft utilisation is low and so revenue is limited.  Honestly, Cleveland needs a commitment from its business community to guaranty revenue to make this work or at least an uptick in O&D - especially in premium fares. Basic economy tickets aint gonna pay for it. Above you reference that UA is adding a third LAX flight. This isnt because theres an increase in the cheap seats its because the fron if the plane is paying for it.  CLE to LAX is premuim heavy

Edited November 24, 20195 yr by B767PILOT

So back to my original question:

 

Is it (the City, business community, CLE) positioning itself to take advantage of the opportunity?

2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

So back to my original question:

 

Is it (the City, business community, CLE) positioning itself to take advantage of the opportunity?

But the opportunity isnt in the A321 or 737MAX really.  If truly motivated, they should already be flying on a UAL 767 or Lufthansa A330 at least 4 times a week to Frankfurt or Munchen

Just now, Frmr CLEder said:

So in other words CLE is relegated to LCCs and connections to international destinations?

 

Until Air Carriers find a route or several routs profitable, yes.

46 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

They don't accomodate A321XLRs because they aren't yet commercially available. The question is:

When they are commercially available, will CLE be positioned (operationally or otherwise) to compete for those transcontinental routes into/out-of smaller markets?

This specific aircraft may not be available, but it will not be much different than its family members.  Correct?  The same way there is very little physical difference in a 737 600/700/800/900. 

 

Outside of flying/air plane enthusiast the majority of people will not be able to tell the difference between a 737 300/400 vs a 600/700/800/900 model.  The same way people do not know the difference between a 757 200 or 300 or 767 200, 300 or 400.

 

The most notable difference will be in the engine used on the aircraft.  

 

Having said that, I don't think CLE will have a problem operating this aircraft as the airport can handle any plane in service today except the international airbus planes 350/380.  I could have the plane type wrong here, but the jumbo liners would need to deplane away from the terminal, IIRC

1 minute ago, B767PILOT said:

But the opportunity isnt in the A321 or 737MAX really.  If truly motivated, they should already be flying on a UAL 767 or Lufthansa A330 at least 4 times a week to Frankfurt or Munchen

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14 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

Until Air Carriers find a route or several routs profitable, yes.

This specific aircraft may not be available, but it will not be much different than its family members.  Correct?  The same way there is very little physical difference in a 737 600/700/800/900. 

 

Outside of flying/air plane enthusiast the majority of people will not be able to tell the difference between a 737 300/400 vs a 600/700/800/900 model.  The same way people do not know the difference between a 757 200 or 300 or 767 200, 300 or 400.

 

The most notable difference will be in the engine used on the aircraft.  

 

Having said that, I don't think CLE will have a problem operating this aircraft as the airport can handle any plane in service today except the international airbus planes 350/380.  I could have the plane type wrong here, but the jumbo liners would need to deplane away from the terminal, 

Yes, engines and also somewhat different wings and landing gear but CLE is already equipped to handle all except the A380 and it turns out that the "Whale" wont be flying anywhere in a few years.  Concourse C can handle B747 by the way. Also each model referenced above may have different engines depending on the airline and some lines may operate the same model with different engines thus having two distict subfleets of the same model

Edited November 24, 20195 yr by B767PILOT

47 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

Yes, engines and also somewhat different wings and landing gear but CLE is already equipped to handle all except the A380 and it turns out that the "Whale" wont be flying anywhere in a few years.  Concourse C can handle B747 by the way. Also each model referenced above may have different engines depending on the airline and some lines may operate the same model with different engines thus having two distict subfleets of the same model

 

Good to know.   I've been on continental 767 and 777 that have landed in CLE due to irregular service in EWR.  IIRC we had 767 service to SFO/LAX at one time.

 

Continental guaranteed that CLE would not have good international service by flying 757s instead of the 767.

11 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

Good to know.   I've been on continental 767 and 777 that have landed in CLE due to irregular service in EWR.  IIRC we had 767 service to SFO/LAX at one time.

 

Continental guaranteed that CLE would not have good international service by flying 757s instead of the 767.

Continental originally slated Cleveland Frankfurt on a DC10-30. Hub to hub. The White admin insisted on London - a One World hub. Hence the downgrade to 757. 

1 hour ago, B767PILOT said:

Concourse C can handle B747 by the way. 

United was using a B747 between CLE and ORD in the late 70s/early 80s.  

1 minute ago, B767PILOT said:

Continental originally slated Cleveland Frankfurt on a DC10-30. Hub to hub. The White admin insisted on London - a One World hub. Hence the downgrade to 757. 

767 service on AA and UAL. Once upon a time B747 service to two or three destinations on UA. A310 and L-1011 on Delta and etc. And my favourite:  Vickers Viscounts and Vanguards to YYZ and YUL. 

3 minutes ago, skiwest said:

United was using a B747 between CLE and ORD in the late 70s/early 80s.  

And FLL too

I was a rampman (baggage handler) for United from 1978-80. Those were DC-10s, not 747s. There were at least 2 Dc-10s to Tampa daily, and the Dc 10 to ORD continued on to the West Coast

Just now, B767PILOT said:

767 service on AA and UAL. Once upon a time B747 service to two or three destinations on UA. A310 and L-1011 on Delta and etc. And my favourite:  Vickers Viscounts and Vanguards to YYZ and YUL. 

American definitely had big planes.  We're mostly an American family and I know we flew on i think a 767 from CLE to LAX for the Olympics

18 minutes ago, bjk said:

I was a rampman (baggage handler) for United from 1978-80. Those were DC-10s, not 747s. There were at least 2 Dc-10s to Tampa daily, and the Dc 10 to ORD continued on to the West Coast

They flew 747s in the esrly 70s. 

United, American and Northwest flew regularly scheduled DC-10s from CLE.  The only regularly scheduled 747 I am aware of was United to ORD.

Edited November 24, 20195 yr by skiwest

1 minute ago, skiwest said:

United, American and Northwest flew regularly scheduled DC-10s from CLE.  The only regularly scheduled 747 I am aware of was United to ORD.

And 747s to florida. My father flew DC8s for UA and i remember the 747s well. But you are correct. DC10s to numerous destinations - and AA and UA had the piano bars on board

So to summarize, as the City begins its long-range airport plan, the feeling is that unless the corporate community provides airline incentives, the plan should be based upon LCCs and a few legacy carriers utilizing mid-sized aircraft.