I saw this on Crains and I wanted to know how UO's felt.

 

The woman who was the last interviewee summed up

http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070806/MULTI/70806008/1074/newsletter01

 

This is the Crains forum

http://www.crainscleveland.com/forum_message/753t510804g71584i/AdvancedForum

 

People in Ohio in general are negative about their cities.

I think the answer is yes, people in Cleveland tend to be pretty negative about their city. However, just as annoying are the delusional people who don't look at Cleveland's problems realistically.

Compared to what?  I mean, I'm sure from an insular Cleveland perspective, I can see how the locals can be negative about it.  But compared to the rest of the state's view on their own cities (Cincinnatians on Cincinnati; Daytonians about Dayton; Columbusites cluelessness about their own city; etc), Cleveland's a ball of positive, "Cleveland Rocks!" joy.

People in Columbus are pretty clueless. They don't realize how ugly their downtown is.

Native Clevelanders: Absolutely Yes. (excluding the "in the know" ones here on UO)

Relocated Types: Absolutely Not.

What Pope said + I imagine, though I have no data to back it up, that most native people in most cities also have a negative view of where they were brought up and believe other cities have it better. The whole "grass is greener" syndrome.

^ I can see it.  Lots of people are living in the past when they thought things were better.  The uncertainty of the future, I think, contributes to that.

1. lots of natives that don't travel and don't know any different;

2. lots of people who remember "how it was"  and are stuck in the past;

3. lots of younger people who have choices, leaving the region;

4. little to no immigration from other cities / countries;

 

=

 

lots of negatives, sometimes with very little foundation.  i always ask now, "who is doing it better?"  "how would you change this?" 

 

one of the best things that could happen would be to dilute this negative element with a new batch of immigrants from wherever, who want to work and believe in the future of the city. 

 

 

 

^ Nail on the head. I think so much of it has to do with the fact that, compared to peer cities, we have a very low rate of "population churning". Lots of natives stay in Cleveland their whole lives, and a relatively small portion are transplants. So I think in many ways the phenomenon is the result of a large chunk of the population being culturally insulated to a city that has been steeped in negativity for half a century. I am in total agreement with Pope's comment earlier ... transplants love it; it seems like we're particularly appealing to Midwestern and Northeast transplants, although I guess that is anectdotal. I have also found that people who grew up in Cleveland, moved away and moved back tend to be very positive about the city and very engaged in civic affairs.

Native Clevelanders: Absolutely Yes. (excluding the "in the know" ones here on UO)

Relocated Types: Absolutely Not.

 

I Agree

 

What Pope said + I imagine, though I have no data to back it up, that most native people in most cities also have a negative view of where they were brought up and believe other cities have it better. The whole "grass is greener" syndrome.

 

I agree.  this morning with the transit mess.  I can't tell you how many "this city is garbage", "Can't this f*ckin' city get transit right", "I've gotta get outta here", "NY makes me sick" comments I heard all within a block.

 

1. lots of natives that don't travel and don't know any different;

2. lots of people who remember "how it was"  and are stuck in the past;

3. lots of younger people who have choices, leaving the region;

4. little to no immigration from other cities / countries;

 

=

 

lots of negatives, sometimes with very little foundation.  i always ask now, "who is doing it better?"  "how would you change this?" 

 

one of the best things that could happen would be to dilute this negative element with a new batch of immigrants from wherever, who want to work and believe in the future of the city. 

 

I think about no. 2 everytime I read or hear someone say cleveland needs more manufacturing jobs because that is a true sign the economy is improving.

 

I often then say to that person, that instead of worrying about old business sectors, unions why not learn about "new" business sectors?  and then add something like, "we have to stop living in the past".  or wonder why downtown is dead.

 

I have also found that people who grew up in Cleveland, moved away and moved back tend to be very positive about the city and very engaged in civic affairs.

 

I think the majority feel that way, but many who moved back to Cleveland from more cosmopolitan or progressive areas still wonder, why things are stuck in 1990. 

^ Nail on the head. I think so much of it has to do with the fact that, compared to peer cities, we have a very low rate of "population churning". Lots of natives stay in Cleveland their whole lives, and a relatively small portion are transplants. So I think in many ways the phenomenon is the result of a large chunk of the population being culturally insulated to a city that has been steeped in negativity for half a century. I am in total agreement with Pope's comment earlier ... transplants love it; it seems like we're particularly appealing to Midwestern and Northeast transplants, although I guess that is anectdotal. I have also found that people who grew up in Cleveland, moved away and moved back tend to be very positive about the city and very engaged in civic affairs.

 

That's some great insight. I think living in NYC has definitely helped me see the city from an "outsider's" point of view (even though I'm really not) and gain fresh perspective on Cleveland and that whole negative attitude. It's so obvious to me now that it's all how you look at things. People need to change their outlook and see that Cleveland is a wonderful city. Some people just don't know how to bring themselves to that place. I miss Cleveland tons.

I'm sure this was posted in an earlier thread, but I wanted to share the letter that April Baer, formerly of 90.3 ideastream, shared on CoolCleveland.com before her move to Portland. 

 

And in response to UrbanLife's point 2:  As I've mentioned before, the methods of measuring economic vitality to which "old timers" are so beholden are just plain incapable of measuring the true health of our economy in this day in age.  Michael DeAloia has stated that there is $100s of millions in business investment and and expanded productivity that is all but ignored due to an obsession with tracking jobs, usually blue collar, gained or lost.

 

 

From CoolCleveland:

 

As WCPN announcer April Baer packs her bags for a new life in Portland, Oregon (and a new job at public radio station KOPB), she takes a few minutes to jot down for Cool Cleveland readers her feelings about leaving her adopted home.

 

 

April Baer writes:

"Dear Cleveland: Are you reading this looking for The Big Kiss-Off? You've come to the wrong place. I am so tired of seeing short-timers screaming across the Op-Ed pages, all hot to point out the problems that drove them to leave town. Tasteless. Why don't we skip that, and treat my departure like what it is--a breakup that's a little sad, and a little sweet?

 

 

It would take a real ingrate to sit here and complain--"No one bothered to make use of my talents." "Nobody asked me what I thought." "Nobody capitalized on my potential." Wah wah wah. Don't get me wrong, I've seen how tough it is for young people with energy and talent who are trying to make their mark. But know this: that's not why I'm leaving. I've accepted a job at KOPB in Portland, Oregon because I am a late bloomer. I am way overdue for the "go find yourself" exploration that normal people make when they're in their teens or twenties.

 

 

Brain Drain? Please. I'm the least appropriate person for that label. For the past five and a half years, I've had the chance to do meaningful work at a progressive, community-minded company (ideastream). I found a fantastic neighborhood in Cleveland (Ohio City) where a person can stretch her legs, play hard, and really get to know the neighbors. OK, so the old-school politics drive me nuts sometimes. But there's a reason why I've stayed. Just like there's a reason you're still here, reading this, when you could be in Columbus sucking down a Cinnabon at Easton in a consumerist stupor. I'm talking about two things: The past, and the future.

 

 

Cleveland history is better than television. You've got gods and monsters, steel barons, race riots, social upheaval, and once in a while... PROGRESS. It's good to live in a city that hasn't forgotten where it came from. I can tick off a long list of ways that the city's mythology continues to shape what's happening today.

 

 

And what about the people coming forward to challenge the past? You know the names--Chris Carmody, Sadhu Johnston, Daniel Gray Kontar, Lillian Kuri, Dave Wittkowski, Cindy Barber, Michael Salinger, Annetta Marion & Bernadette Gilotta, James Levin, And yes, you too, Mulready. (These are only the ones I know best.) When they didn't see it happening, these people didn't up and move to Chicago. They got their hands dirty and brought their future to life. Fun and mission amid the ruins of the manufacturing economy? You're damn right it's out there, if you've got the nerve to go get it.

 

 

When I came here at the tender age of 25, my only sense of calling was to the Nordstrom shoe sale rack. But how could I have retained that frosty veneer after walking down Clark Avenue on a frying summer day, seeing young women fussing with even younger babies, talking about their temp jobs? Or after eating hot dogs at AM with guys whose home address is 2100 Lakeside? Throwing back beers in Slavic Village with fifty-five year olds who are waiting to hear if they're about to be downsized? This town changed me. And there's plenty more like me out there, just waiting to be converted. If I could, Cleveland, I'd just love to sit you down on my lap and say, "Relax, baby! Why are you trying so hard to be someone else? OK, so things ain't what they used to be at the steel mills. Why don't you just keep on being exactly what you are--a wise-cracking, magnificent old broad who has not yet lost her sense of humor, or the will to live." There will always be a young fry coming up from Columbus, Mansfield, Cincinnati, Dayton, Youngstown, who want a real city, who have something to offer, but who don't know how they fit it. They're arriving every day. What will Cleveland offer when they show up at the door?

 

 

As long as you are living here, the best thing you can do is to make the most of your money and your time. Every dollar you spend can do one of two things: help or hurt. EVERYONE can do more to support the urban centers. EVERYONE can do more to support the arts and culture. I am not laying on a guilt trip. This is about using your lifestyle as a weapon. Stop driving to Strongsville and Beachwood when you should be at Tower City or Shaker Square. Quit going to Burger King when you ought to be getting takeout from Phil the Fire.

 

 

This goes for politics, too. Wanna know why your elected officials go around mouthing platitudes and avoiding risk at all costs? It's because we've come to see public life as just another service to be bought and paid for. Insert tax money, wait for services to drop out the chute. If you don't like politicians treating you like a passive consumer, you need to stop acting like one. Tired of the quagmire? Get off your duff and do something. It doesn't have to be anything big. Donate to a candidate, volunteer, go to the block club meeting, catch up on the news. Whatever gets your freak on. It is not enough to merely react to what you think is bad. Spread some fertilizer on what you think is good.

 

 

So with that, Auf Wiedersehen, Cleveland. Come see me sometime in lovely, pine-fresh, rain-drenched Portland. I'll be thinking about you."

 

 

from Cool Cleveland reader April Baer [email protected]

April Baer is the host/producer of 90.3@9 on 90.3 WCPN ideastream. Her last day at work is Fri 1/23. The opinions in this letter are April's and not those of 90.3 WCPN ideastream'.

 

 

^ That's a great letter and sums up a lot of the angst us transplants experience ... why the hell don't locals value Cleveland's distinct nature?

Well I guess she told us!  You go girl!

I think MyTwoSense nailed that when he made his observations about NY.  I noticed the same thing while living in Seattle.  It's hard to think of two more widely lauded cities than those two, but the natives complain about anything they can- change- lack of change, too urban- too suburban, the weather, the politics, things aren't as good as they were back when_____.

^ That's a great letter and sums up a lot of the angst us transplants experience ... why the hell don't locals value Cleveland's distinct nature?

 

I do...I have never lived anywhere but Cleveland, and those are exactly the reasons I think it is great.  As much as I think NYC is an awesome city, Cleveland still has all the uniqueness that Manhattan seems to have lost some of (hopefully we never end up with a Chipotle on every block downtown or non-Italians selling Italian goods in Little Italy).

I do...I have never lived anywhere but Cleveland, and those are exactly the reasons I think it is great.  As much as I think NYC is an awesome city, Cleveland still has all the uniqueness that Manhattan seems to have lost some of (hopefully we never end up with a Chipotle on every block downtown ornon-Italians selling Italian goods in Little Italy).

 

we've had a Frenchman running one of the major spots for years now!

1. lots of natives that don't travel and don't know any different;

2. lots of people who remember "how it was"  and are stuck in the past;

3. lots of younger people who have choices, leaving the region;

4. little to no immigration from other cities / countries;

 

=

 

lots of negatives, sometimes with very little foundation.  i always ask now, "who is doing it better?"  "how would you change this?" 

 

one of the best things that could happen would be to dilute this negative element with a new batch of immigrants from wherever, who want to work and believe in the future of the city. 

 

 

There certainly are different types of people who given their circumstances seem to develop a negative perception. I feel very privy to understanding the younger people segment who have choices after they graduate from college. Let me tell you, its very frustrating. It's frustrating because they all tend to be out in the suburbs. They don't know "the city" and they don't know "region". They are clueless in terms of geography, history, assets, development and possible opportunities. This lack of knowledge really inables them from considering Cleveland as one of their options.

 

The situation is somewhat of a paradox.  On one hand they seem to reject their parents' ideal of suburban living, because what they want after they graduate is an exciting urban environment with other young professionals. But on the other hand they seem to have adopted their parents' negative perception of "the city" here in Cleveland that drives them away.

 

It's not lack of travel that is really problem. Travel is the problem. They visit other places with their families, friends, or study abroad programs. Its the fact they make such an effort to experiences other places without ever really experiencing what's near home. Popular culture's glamorization of other cities is also an important factor in perception development. As a result, they develop the "grass is greener" syndrome.

 

What we need to do is a combination of education and propoganda. Let people know what we have and what's going on. Make people believe in the positive, create momentum, see growth.

 

Its still always difficult to get through to the skeptics, which there are a lot of (like a certain forum poster from DC).  I've been fortunate to have some great conservations and experiences showing people around that really change people's perceptions. I can honestly say that I feel  personally responsible for retaining three young people my age here in Cleveland. One has even invested in a double in Old Brooklyn and is doing a complete rennovation and remodeling on it to rent out! But I still encounter people through my grassroots campaign who remain cynical. "Well yeah, this is cool but there's still not many cool people," "I just need something more," or "This is still only Cleveland." At some point people need to realize to be that extra person, make a difference, contribute to the community. The author of that letter to Cool Cleveland really got it right when she talked about that. 

 

 

 

 

No, I don't think we are too negative.  We recognize that there are problems, the biggest of which is apathy.  Too few of us get involved, volunteer, support the arts, vote for school tax increases or try to appreciate diversity.  I think we cross the line when we move from being critical and look at addressing things in an honest and open manner to being cynical while thinking it is someone elses problem to fix.  It is ours, be negative if you want, but step up to the plate of change.

I get that alot to. I ask a lot of my fellow Cleveladers who are in college if they plan on returning. About 50% I get a yes, or for a little while. The other 50% I get a no. I ask why and I usually get comments like "there's nothing here." WTF? Of course some of these comments are from people who don't realize Cleveland has East and West numbered streets, people who seemed to have camped out their whole lives in the suburban ring, except maybe to go to church.

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was a rhetorical question.  From what I've seen/heard it's an absolute yes!  I've never lived anywhere where the people who lived there were so negative about their town.  Boston calls itself the "hub of the universe" for crying out loud!  Most NYers I've met might complain about specific issues, but at the end always come back to sentiments like "it's the greatest city in the country".  Clevelanders (especially the surburbanites who rarely actually set foot in the city) seem very ready to accept the conventional wisdom that Cleveland's in a death spiral, that nothing's going on downtown, etc.  Sentiments like "Well, of course, Cleveland's a shithole, but I live in Solon so it's ok."

 

I think in general (here and elsewhere), people are far more down on the central cities than the greater metro areas.  Even many people here will say that NE Ohio is a "great place to raise a family" or something like that.  This has changed somewhat as almost any city you can name has become much more attractive to live in over the last 20 years, but is still more of the rule.

So, it sounds to me that the most negative aspects of Cleveland are Clevelanders themselves?? Or, perhaps more accurately, Greater Clevelanders?

 

Ultimately, nothing holds back a city except the people in it, barring some significant act of mother nature. It never ceases to amaze me when I hear some people say "The city's hurting economically, but what can you do?" There is no such thing as destiny in the absence of will. And "can't never did nothing." Cities are the result of dreams turned into reality through force of human will, not some act of nature beyond human control.

 

So if someone is negative about Cleveland, tell them they have the power today to make things better in one of two ways:

 

1. Get off your ass, or

2. Get out of town.

I honestly feel one of the major reasons locals feel Cleveland is "in its death spiral," or whatever is because of the voice of one certain fat-man on AM radio in the afternoon who will now be known as Cancer; that is, he is a cancer whose bile-ridden voice needs to be eradicated from the airwaves... or at least be countered by someone quick on there feet who can muscle their way on to his show.

I'd love to be that guy, but I wasn't blessed with an ability for utilizing the spoken word.

I think the media in general is to blame for a lot of negativity. Don't get me wrong. I'm not asking the media to turn a blind eye to crime and things that actually happen in our city. We can't avoid those things, and they shouldn't be ignored simply for the sake of bettering our city's image. But I really think the media needs to help in spreading a positive attitude about our city, and stop wallowing in this woe-is-me mentality. If the media is primarily focusing on the bad news and offering it as proof of Cleveland's decline, then that's an incredibly unfair, biased view.

The media does that because there's too many transcribers and not enough journalists in media anymore. There's too much point-and-shoot in television media, rip-and-read in radio news, and too much rewriting of press releases and police reports at area newspapers. While it's easy to say it's sheer laziness (and often it is), it's more an outgrowth of how the "industry" is evolving -- job cuts with competition from the Internet for advertising dollars, and demand for higher news volume (re: faster/shorter news tidbits, less research). The end result is a less informed viewer, listener, reader.

 

I was about to give some personal experiences with this transformation, but in the interest of eating and paying bills, I think I'll limit my comments to what I've already posted.

The media does that because there's too many transcribers and not enough journalists in media anymore. There's too much point-and-shoot in television media, rip-and-read in radio news, and too much rewriting of press releases and police reports at area newspapers. While it's easy to say it's sheer laziness (and often it is), it's more an outgrowth of how the "industry" is evolving -- job cuts with competition from the Internet for advertising dollars, and demand for higher news volume (re: faster/shorter news tidbits, less research). The end result is a less informed viewer, listener, reader.

 

I was about to give some personal experiences with this transformation, but in the interest of eating and paying bills, I think I'll limit my comments to what I've already posted.

 

I agree to a point, except about research.  That in itself is a product of corporate culture inside each publishing house.

Yeah.

 

I think, at the end of the day, we can all finger point and blame whoever, but what is each one of US doing to better the image of our city? When people complain about various issues, how do we respond? I think it's still up to each one of us to stop being so negative as well and help to spread a positive image and a love for our city. We need to acknowledge our problems, but our city is still great and unique. We need to act as ambassadors and spread the word about our love for the city and the great things about it. It isn't only up to the politicians or the media or those with a more public voice.

I agree to a point, except about research.  That in itself is a product of corporate culture inside each publishing house.

 

Assuming you have time for research. When you used to have to write 3-5 articles per week, then layoffs/buyouts hit, and now you are are asked to write 5-7 articles a week, the first thing that gets sacrificed is research. Plus, there is a great deal of turnover in media these days, so younger people coming in don't have the skills, contacts, resources, aggressiveness or confidence to dig deeper, question authority figures or often double-check "facts."

I agree to a point, except about research.  That in itself is a product of corporate culture inside each publishing house.

 

Assuming you have time for research. When you used to have to write 3-5 articles per week, then layoffs/buyouts hit, and now you are are asked to write 5-7 articles a week, the first thing that gets sacrificed is research. Plus, there is a great deal of turnover in media these days, so younger people coming in don't have the skills, contacts, resources, aggressiveness or confidence to dig deeper, question authority figures or often double-check "facts."

 

I can't speak for all, but most (large) publishers now have "research" department/divisions.  All of our articles in the News and Information publications, go thru a research "review" before being published.  We're lucky enough to have one central group that does that, which in turn makes us a much more responsible Publisher.  Even the fluffy publications like People and Entertainment weekly have started to research better.

 

I know one of TIME's direct magazine competition newscoughweekcough created a review/research department after a certain snafu.

 

However, never having working in a daily news paper I cannot say how the process is different or how it affects the outcome of a story.

The PD has a research department, but if it's like the rest of the paper, they've seen staff cutbacks. Sun has no research department.

there is a sense of humor in the region ive never encountered anywhere else. its funny and very sarcastic and negative about the city or against other people, but ohh never about the individual saying it.

 

i think what i mean is kind of reflected in those negative peedee zingers that they always throw into every positve article. the minister of culture does it all the time too. and dont get me started on roldo. you never see that anywhere else. its relentless and it does nothing but promote thoughts of just throwing your hands up. hopefully new internet outlets like uo and coolcleveland are changing that.

 

i also think cleveland's politics and large city council plays into negativity as well. too many indians, not enough chiefs.

 

 

 

"what is each one of US doing to better the image of our city? When people complain about various issues, how do we respond?"

 

Are you being rhetorical, or do you really want a list?

"what is each one of US doing to better the image of our city? When people complain about various issues, how do we respond?"

 

Are you being rhetorical, or do you really want a list?

 

and the challenge, at least for me personally, is that i always try and take time to explain things, even to people i don't know but just happen to overhear complaining about something.  it's sort of like the panhandlers for me.  i don't mind the first 4 or 5 that approach or talk to me during the day, i'll actually listen to the story and try and help them with advice (not $$).  it is the next 15 that approach me during the rest of the day that really start to get on my nerves.

 

but, this comes at bit of a personal cost to me, as it takes away from other thoughts, activities and conversations i'd rather be having.  and, after a few years of the *same* conversation, it starts to get old.   

 

which is why i think the best approach is to dilute the negative elements by bringing new ideas and people into the region.  it is certainly a complex problem with no easy solution.

^ Agreed. I don't think I'm the only transplant who's ever said this, but the only major thing that would make me want to leave Cleveland would be the attitude expressed by so many natives (not all ... sorry that I made sweeping generalizations earlier in this thread). The energy it takes to constantly dissuade people from thinking this is a crime-riddled cesspool of despair is pretty high. Not to mention, what ends up happening is what's happening in this thread ... the dedicated civic cheerleaders start becoming complainers themselves ... instead of b*tching about crime, weather, lack of retail, education, etc., we bit*h about the bitc*ers.