April 24, 200916 yr But since so many people seem to be belittling this space... I'm sincerely curious: What urban parks about this size in the country have you been to, and what would you rather see in a park at this space. What do you really think it is missing? I think PP can be nice like: Rittenhouse Circle in Philly Franklin Square in DC Central Park at Atlantic Station in Atlanta (geez, I cannot believe I typed that ugh!) Tranquil Park in Houston Perdido Park in New Orleans Park at the San Fran Museum of Modern Art. (I don't know the real name) Those are few examples I hope that Perk can be like.
April 24, 200916 yr Two of the best mid-sized parks in the country are Washington Square Park and Madison Park, both in New York City. They have a feel, upon entering, that you've left the busy streets of Manhattan and entered an oasis in an otherwise un-green city. There are very mature trees that house birds, squirrels, and other wildlife. That is the first thing that Cleveland parks don't feature. We keep cutting trees down and planting new ones that will take another 75 years to mature. Just like we like to demolish buildings, we like to cut trees down. The purpose of an urban park is to create a sense of nature where it's otherwise not available. The first thing I think of in most Cleveland parks are these perfectly arranged planter-trees that are spaced exactly 10 feet apart in perfect alignment. Is that natural? Is that nature? Especially when all the trees are of the same gene and offer no diversity. Is that replicating the feeling of wooded areas? Not in my mind. Maybe yours! The same thing applies to fields of grass. Perfect green fertilized lawn is not found in nature. I think that's very boring and if anyone believes we need more grassy fields in downtown, then maybe downtown isn't for you. Minding, there is already Willow Park, Voinovich Park, Mall A, B, and C, amongst other grassy fields already available in central downtown that are under-utilized and under-used. The new plaza that was built on the west and east sides of the Federal Building is highly dissapointing. The CREDIBLE architect and design firm promised a "heavily wooded" atmosphere and what we got was nothing better than the new fountains of crap in front of the Cleveland Clinic. Obviously these firms and city officials have not visited other cities and learned anything. Maybe Frank Jackson should take the city council and spend a year in France, not a week. University Circle has some great wooded areas and sculpture gardens, such as David E. Davis Park, Rockefeller Park, and the Lagoons at Wade Oval. Rockefeller Park is the best designed park in Cuyahoga County and sadly, it's not used by many people and even more dissapointing is that it has become a vehicle thruway more than anything else. The Cultural Gardens are beautiful and also neglected by Clevelander's. Rockefeller Park (the kind of park I want more of in Cleveland) is very similar in design to Central Park and Prospect Park near Park-Slope in Brooklyn, both considered 2 of the greatest parks in this country. What makes Rockefeller "a great park"? The bridges are immaculate! The Cultural Gardens and greenhouse are beautiful, the housing along East Blvd. is gorgeous (most of it that is). And it connects right to Wade Oval. That to me is a park and while Perk Park is not comparable in size or dimension in anyway at all, Rockefeller's *design* SHOULD serve as a model for all parks in Cleveland. Implementing public art, sculptures, and ***well-planned landscaping*** (not fake, ugly, suburban mcmansion re-creation) is a key to making any park attractive. That is the #1 thing missing from Cleveland's downtown parks. And like I said, everything else earlier - that too is missing and needed. Otherwise, we'll always have "average parks" with no more than 5-10 people in them on a sunny afternoon. We have the ability to accomplish more than an elevated green lawn. Howabout this instead: <img src="http://www.intrepid.com.au/wp-content/upload/central-park-new-york-city.jpg">
April 24, 200916 yr I agree with a lot of bizbiz's points. I think part of the problem is that downtown still isn't seen by many as a true urban neighborhood, and so spaces that are meant to be "public spaces" can become sub par because there isn't any real sense of urban vitality yet, I think. I think designers for green spaces in Cleveland need to keep that in mind as well. Not saying that Perk Park won't do that or that its current design won't do that. But public spaces that fail to attract the public fail period, in my mind. They need to start being seen as much more than just patches of grass.
April 24, 200916 yr Biz Biz. I agree with a lot of points you have but a couple things... First, I love Madison Square Park and Washington Park, but those places are SIGNIFICANTLY larger than what we are working with here, and thus pretty uncomparable. Perk Park is a whopping 1 block long and half a block wide. Madison is 3 blocks by 3 blocks (9 total blocks of land), and Washington is 2 blocks by 4 blocks (8 total blocks). We've got a 1/2 a block to work with, which makes it much much more difficult to "recreate" nature so to speak. I'd also like to add that both of those parks due in fact have clearings of grass. My comparison of similar sized park that I would love the most for this to resemble is Post Office Square Park in Boston (which also has a clearing of grass. One of my favorite urban park spaces anywhere. There is a LOT of aspects of the new perk which remind me of this space. I completley agree with you on the mature tree front. Completely. I've said this to many people. I don't know how feasible this is, if they have contemplated it... but I sure hope they have. The mounded areas on the Walnut street side of the park in the renderings certainly appear to have larger more mature looking trees. I have no idea what sort of tree species they are looking at for this, but I pray they have put a great deal of time into it. Because I agree with you if we end up with a bunch of those little trees that look like saplings for eternity this will never be the space it could be. I don't know what species is lining prospect but in 15 years, those trees have really filled out and now I think look great. As you mentioned the federal building couldn't have been a bigger disapointment. They promised an "urban forest" and delivered a concrete pad with some saplings and a red fence. I really didn't even want to have to mention the names Voinovich and Willard "Park" because those may be the two worst uses of land space of any city in the country. They are utterly and completely worthless. But just because of those two crimes against urban mankind doesn't mean we should abandon having any sort of grassy area for people to enjoy. Particuarly one that appears to be surrounded by trees and stepped down lined with various vegitation. Not to mention leaving that area open will allow a lot of sunlight which is crucial to the park in my opinion. One of the reasons we've lost mature trees here (which are so so crucial) is because we f'd up the planning of this area so badly 30-35 years ago it is beyond comprehension. Trees in the median of the street were set in the middle of a 50 foot tall concrete bunker, and the "park" is a concrete toilet bowl with mature trees. Even with the trees it is an extremely uncomfortable space. That as much as anything adds to the 5-10 people smoking usage. I also wholly agree with you in terms of public art. There needs to be some sort of component. I'd love to see some sort of monument incorporated in the center of this space (no idea of what, maybe lebron :wink:). Certainly that's not in the plans now but could easily be added. Actually the whole greenspace area lends itself to enhancements as we move forward. But I really would ask everyone to take a look at post office square park in Boston. Tremendous space, and there are many similarities with the new perk design. This park with reserve square and the chesterfield have something crazy like close to 2,000 people living almost on top of it. Currently it is rarely used primarily because even with the beautiful trees, it is a concrete dump. It also feels incredibly unaccessible and dark. As far wildlife. That is done no matter what for a time period even if they reuse the trees. you can't rip someone's habitat up and expect them to stay put while you do heavy construction for months on end. Eventually they will return. It doesn't change the fact that this park HAS to be redone. It's a mess. It's unfriendly. It looks like something coldwar communists would have forced people to go to for "free time" before shuffling them at gunpoint back into a prison. The types of trees they use here is so pivotal to this project. I wholly agree with everything you said about rockefeller park, and in particular wade park. Wade Park is my favorite park in the country outside of central and Boston Commons. It's a shame there aren't more people living there to give it life. Hopefully that changes in the future starting with uptown. I think I would commit human sacrafice to have that place recreated downtown. Of course there is no where remotely possible to put something like that downtown (nor something the size of washington or madison). The one chance we have for a park that seems like what you and I both envision is the port redevelopment. Plenty of land to create some sort of wade park / washington / madison type place. This however is more of a pocket park and should (in my opinion) be treated a little differently.
April 24, 200916 yr Well, I was mostly being cynical and snarky when I posted the "dirt patch" comment, but I don't know if I can think of an urban park similar in situation (Downtown, no view, not Manhattan) that is successful as far as drawing people (not homeless campers). The ones I can think of that come close tend to be more "hardscape" plazas than "softscape" parks.
April 24, 200916 yr Look at the renderings. They are almost the same thing... the overhead picture looks incredibly similar to the park layout, and the second picture looks almost dead on to the feel created in the first rendering showing the "tree mounds".
April 24, 200916 yr note how many of the trees in the rendering are to a degree "transparent" so you can better see the layout of the park. Last I checked actual trees weren't transparent. :)
April 24, 200916 yr That is a comparable situation, I agree. And a beautiful park. But I think the most important thing to evaluate on an urban park is whether or not it is being used by people. I only see two people in that park. Maybe that's the way the photographs were intended to be, of course.
April 24, 200916 yr I spent the vast majority of last summer working on a job in Boston. Once I found this park (it was about 4 blocks from the building we were working on), i went here around lunch time most every day to hang out and eat my lunch. It was often packed. The one thing this park doesn't have is a lot of residences surrounding it. So it is used quite a bit during the weekday, but as work clears the park does a little as well. Boston Commons is only about 8-10 blocks west of here, so I'd imagine that's where most residents are heading. That wouldn't be a problem with reserve square across the street. Also, I know that the "grassy" area is essentially the same size as the very dense tree mound area towards walnut street. So the overhead rendering doesn't quite show the amount of space reserved for all those trees as true as it really is. Lastly... I love the interaction of the back of this space with the back of the Amtrust building. If they put the proper tennant back there with cafe seating outdoors basically in the park, it could be a huge attraction for the park.
April 24, 200916 yr eesh... i'll try to explain this for you. the open grassy area is in the foreground of the rendering. There is also an open grassy area at POSP, nothing but complete open grass. In the rear of the rendering are multitudes of mounded areas covered in trees. This area is the same size as the open grassy area. The ground level rendering of the new park is from this area with multiple mounds and tons of trees which take up half the park. On the E. 12th street side appears to be some sort of covered trellice system over top of tables. Both parks also appear to have brick paths with curbs. I see in the foreground what appear to be stepped planters cascading down which appear to be heavily landscaped with a variety plants. I think it is rather impossible for anyone to say yet, what the landscaping "quality" in these areas will be. Until they release detailed plans we won't know. But to say these places are nothing alike, well...
April 24, 200916 yr well I'll just let more expert opinions speak of it... In an article published October 28, 2003 in The Plain Dealer, architecture critic Steve Litt is effusive in his praise of the design and salutes ParkWorks for leading the effort and bringing such noted national talent to address such a critical public space, stating "Now - finally! - foundations and nonprofits organizations have realized that big buildings aren't enough; the city needs beautiful parks and greenspaces if it hopes to compete with its own suburbs for jobs and residents." Litt continued, "The best is yet to come. ParkWorks a nonprofit organization devoted to the betterment of public spaces in the city, has completed an excellent design for the renovation of Perk Plaza…The plan for the park is simple, logical and filled with potential to make one corner of downtown more desirable as a place to live and work." I'll also leave it at the fact that I know some people affiliated with the project so when it was announced they would be moving forward, rather than spew unfounded criticism... i asked about it. I have seen other and more complete renderings and plans than are currently available. I stand by my earlier comments. I think this is going to be an excellent public space... This is going to be an great weekend indeed.
April 25, 200916 yr If this thread gets taken further off track, there are going to be some people finding something else to do for a week. Agree to disagree, show some respect to the forum moderation, or find somewhere else. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
April 27, 200916 yr Ralph J. Perk Plaza improvements get green light from Cleveland council's Finance Committee by Henry J. Gomez/Plain Dealer Reporter Monday April 27, 2009, 2:33 PM Gus Chan/The Plain Dealer More than $1 million in improvements are coming soon to downtown's Ralph J. Perk Plaza. Cleveland City Council's Finance Committee signed off this afternoon on a long-stalled plan to improve Ralph J. Perk Plaza, the downtown park at East 12th and Chester. http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2009/04/ralph_j_perk_plaza_improvement.html
April 27, 200916 yr About $500,000 earmarked for a project that has changed scope because of the new Innerbelt bridge construction will go toward the new Perk Plaza, as well. What's all this now?
April 28, 200916 yr wow that's quite a nice cobbled together chunk of money. so phase one of this renovation is going to happen? very good. then could they change the name back to chester commons? :wink:
May 8, 200916 yr I just saw this...... So I guess it may be back to the full-scale plan after all!! http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2009/05/downtown_clevelands_perk_plaza.html Downtown Cleveland's Perk Plaza in line to get $2.5 million in medical mart deal by Henry J. Gomez/Plain Dealer Reporter Monday May 04, 2009, 2:46 PM Just a few months ago, Cleveland officials couldn't scrape together enough cash to revive long-stalled plans to renovate downtown's Ralph J. Perk Plaza. Then, last week, the City Council approved legislation to begin a $1.2 million first phase of the project. And now, Cuyahoga County commissioners want Mayor Frank Jackson to spend $2.5 million of the proceeds from the sale of the Cleveland Convention Center on Perk Plaza...
May 18, 200916 yr From the councilman (boy can that man type on a Blackberry!): Greetings my friend, If you are reading this email, you are someone who has been heavily invested in our City's Renaissance. Thank you. Sincerely thank you. YOUR HELP IS NEEDED! I NEED YOUR HELP! As you are aware, the County Commissioners, Messrs Hagan, Dimora, and Jones and Mayor Frank G Jackson have worked diligently on the entire MedMart project, and as part of the memorandum of understanding have worked to include $2.5 million dollars to complete the mission critical work of Perk Park/Chester Commons on East 12 and Chester Avenue, a project that has been in the works since 1998, seriously. Today, May 18, 2009, Council President Martin Sweeney informed me that he will be introducing an ordinance for Perk Park/Chester Commons separate and apart from the legislation we are voting on today. In that legislation, to be introduced June 1, 2009, and hopefully, prayerfully passed on June 8, 2009, 2.5 million dollars will be allocated and authority excecuted for this shovelready project. I don't know exactly what the legislation says because I learned of this set-apart today at 11 am. I need you to do three things: 1. Call the Council President, Martin J Sweeney, at 216-664-2903 and thank him for introducing on June 1, and how critical this is to pass on June 8, council's last meeting before summer recess. 2. Send him an e-mail to [email protected] and copy me at [email protected] expressing your interest in seeing this through, both introduction on June 1 and final total passage on June 8. 3. Come to the Council Committee Room on June 8 at 9 am, in the City Council Committee Room, across from Council Chambers on the Second Floor of City Hall, 601 Lakeside Avenue to be seen, heard, and have your intent-to-get-this-done effect in place. I am so grateful to the Mayor, the Commissioners, the Council President, my Cleveland City Council Colleagues, and mostly you for getting us to this point, we cannot stop now. We cannot stop now. Please know that you are the delta. Thanks for the three. Joe Cimperman 216-215-6765 Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld
June 3, 200916 yr Just an update - The $1.5 million for demo is in place, and work is slated to begin this month. The $2.5 mil that is expected to be approved next week will be available for use starting in November, so the tentative completion date for the new and totally awesome Perk Park is June 2010. New drawings should be coming to a forum near you soon ;)
June 3, 200916 yr This is great news and I am really looking forward to the renderings. My only questions is will the PD be able to resist mentioning in every article in the next year or so about the progress with the park about the shooting a few months ago...you know "beautiful new trees were installed in the soon to be completed Perk Park only feet away from..." you know the rest.
June 3, 200916 yr Htsguy, I think you know the answer to your question. Just as conventional journalism once went by the axiom, "if it bleeds, it leads" now there's web journalism's "if it means clicks, it will be intermixed'
June 3, 200916 yr This is great news and I am really looking forward to the renderings. My only questions is will the PD be able to resist mentioning in every article in the next year or so about the progress with the park about the shooting a few months ago...you know "beautiful new trees were installed in the soon to be completed Perk Park only feet away from..." you know the rest. I'm not sure if "resist" is the right word, but it will be hard to ignore the most recognizable incident that has happened on that site. For some readers, that unfortunately might be the easiest way for them to identify the location. But the shooting also is potentially relevant for another reason: the poor sight lines and layout of Perk are in part what make it an easy place for crime to hide, and stakeholders who long have favored these renovations have said as much. If it shows up in my future reporting on the matter, it is for those two reasons and those two reasons alone. I am not out to sensationalize a horrible tragedy.
June 4, 200916 yr Did the shooter hide in Perk Park? Or was it just a coincidence that it happened there? I don't recall the details. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 4, 200916 yr From what I recall, the alleged shooter(s) reportedly went with the victims from the bar in Reserve Square into the park.
June 4, 200916 yr From what I recall, the alleged shooter(s) reportedly went with the victims from the bar in Reserve Square into the park. Yes. The victims went to Perk to buy drugs from the group that included the shooter(s).
June 4, 200916 yr From the councilman (boy can that man type on a Blackberry!): Greetings my friend, If you are reading this email, you are someone who has been heavily invested in our City's Renaissance. Thank you. Sincerely thank you. YOUR HELP IS NEEDED! I NEED YOUR HELP! As you are aware, the County Commissioners, Messrs Hagan, Dimora, and Jones and Mayor Frank G Jackson have worked diligently on the entire MedMart project, and as part of the memorandum of understanding have worked to include $2.5 million dollars to complete the mission critical work of Perk Park/Chester Commons on East 12 and Chester Avenue, a project that has been in the works since 1998, seriously. Today, May 18, 2009, Council President Martin Sweeney informed me that he will be introducing an ordinance for Perk Park/Chester Commons separate and apart from the legislation we are voting on today. In that legislation, to be introduced June 1, 2009, and hopefully, prayerfully passed on June 8, 2009, 2.5 million dollars will be allocated and authority excecuted for this shovelready project. I don't know exactly what the legislation says because I learned of this set-apart today at 11 am. I need you to do three things: 1. Call the Council President, Martin J Sweeney, at 216-664-2903 and thank him for introducing on June 1, and how critical this is to pass on June 8, council's last meeting before summer recess. 2. Send him an e-mail to [email protected] and copy me at [email protected] expressing your interest in seeing this through, both introduction on June 1 and final total passage on June 8. 3. Come to the Council Committee Room on June 8 at 9 am, in the City Council Committee Room, across from Council Chambers on the Second Floor of City Hall, 601 Lakeside Avenue to be seen, heard, and have your intent-to-get-this-done effect in place. I am so grateful to the Mayor, the Commissioners, the Council President, my Cleveland City Council Colleagues, and mostly you for getting us to this point, we cannot stop now. We cannot stop now. Please know that you are the delta. Thanks for the three. Joe Cimperman 216-215-6765 Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld Did you guys realize cle.com linked to this quote in this morning's "city hall rundown? http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/06/a_campaign_manager_for_mayor_f.html
June 4, 200916 yr Do you realize that the forumer "HJG" is Henry Gomez, the reporter who posts the City Hall column? :-) clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
June 4, 200916 yr Just giving credit where it is due. There is good conversation here, and I don't mind linking to it when it fits in with something I want to point out on my City Hall blog.
June 5, 200916 yr Yes. The victims went to Perk to buy drugs from the group that included the shooter(s). The victims were buying drugs? Where did you read this?
June 5, 200916 yr The victims were buying drugs? Where did you read this? Please see the previous message from MayDay. Thus I suspect HJG didn't "read it." Let's keep this discussion about the park. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 5, 200916 yr Yes. The victims went to Perk to buy drugs from the group that included the shooter(s). The victims were buying drugs? Where did you read this? Whoa...Not to take this further off-topic, but I think it needs to be pointed out that the above quote is misattributed. It wasn't HJG that made the drugs link, but Willyboy. And from what I recall, the whole drugs scenario -- while it seems incredibly likely -- was never officially confirmed. Okay, end off topic rant.
June 5, 200916 yr Nothing about drugs was confirmed, and certainly not by me. JBorger misattributed that post to me. Back to talk about the actual park and renovations ...
June 5, 200916 yr Yes. The victims went to Perk to buy drugs from the group that included the shooter(s). The victims were buying drugs? Where did you read this? Whoa...Not to take this further off-topic, but I think it needs to be pointed out that the above quote is misattributed. It wasn't HJG that made the drugs link, but Willyboy. And from what I recall, the whole drugs scenario -- while it seems incredibly likely -- was never officially confirmed. Okay, end off topic rant. Sorry, I shouldn't have mentioned that. I did have a confirmation that a drug purchase was supposedly part of the series of events from a contact in Cleveland (someone that was involved in the case) but didn't realize that it wasn't public knowledge. I know I didn't initially think that these seemed like the types to be buying drugs, employees of the Clinic and all, but then again......
June 9, 200916 yr Hooray!!!!!! http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2009/06/cleveland_hopkins_parking_plan.html Ralph J. Perk Plaza got $2.5 million from the Cleveland Convention Center sale proceeds. The money will be used for long-awaited renovations at the downtown park.
June 10, 200916 yr here is a link to the landscape architect's plans for the park. http://www.tbany.com/projects_page.php?projectid=256&categoryid=4
June 10, 200916 yr All right gripe time, that plan is just plain boring, why can't we have some sort of interactive space. Is this supposed to be an indian burial ground with those mounds? Really all they can come up with is some built up mounds of grass for a few million dollars? There should be some sort of interactive elements to the park, like in millenium park with the silver bean or the water walls with the digital faces. Some sort of interactive water elements, something other than mounds of grass. Also why do they need to use a landscape architect out of New York? Does this city not have any qualified landscape architects to do this project? I know a couple that could have done a much better job. Hopefully that is just a preliminary concept because that has absolutely no creativity to it.
June 10, 200916 yr Cloud Gate (the bean) cost $23 million dollars, and the Crown Fountain (water walls) cost $17 million. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
June 10, 200916 yr I think I remember Cimperman saying that the price tag is high because there are pipes and concrete underground that need to come up. That is probably driving up the price.
June 10, 200916 yr That sure is a lot of concrete. Are they trying to recycle the old park's fixtures? How green of them. I don't know that a park needs to be digital or interactive, but this barely even looks like a park. Every bit of foliage looks rationed and the trees look like uninvited guests. I'm sorry, kind sirs, I don't like it.
June 10, 200916 yr Does anyone know how recent that rendering is? I swear I remember seeing it months ago, before the plans and scope might have changed.
June 10, 200916 yr Does anyone know how recent that rendering is? I swear I remember seeing it months ago, before the plans and scope might have changed. The rendering is about 5-6 years old. There is no new rendering at this point.
June 10, 200916 yr Does anyone know how recent that rendering is? I swear I remember seeing it months ago, before the plans and scope might have changed. The rendering is about 5-6 years old. There is no new rendering at this point. I was wondering if that was the old rendering. Cimperman said last week there should be new ones appearing soon.
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