What does the red on that Map represent?   If LOS C or D, (Or even E) that is not gridlock

 

A nice visual:

https://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/LOS-defined.pdf

2 hours ago, ucgrady said:

That isn't even what the map looks like with a 2-lane Brent Spence on a Friday afternoon, are traffic engineers snake oil salesmen or just working with bad information? 

 

"The goal of traffic modeling is not to be right; it is to create a plausible narrative as to why more construction is both needed and helpful.

 

This sounds deeply cynical, and I hate writing it because there are good, decent, and honest people who do traffic modeling. There are also good, decent, and honest people who consult astrological signs to predict how a marriage will work out. Conviction in one’s predictions does not make them any more accurate."

 

From: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/9/7/all-traffic-models-are-wrong

57 minutes ago, OldBearcat said:

What does the red on that Map represent?   If LOS C or D, (Or even E) that is not gridlock

 

A nice visual:

https://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/LOS-defined.pdf

 

 

I had forgotten how outrageous some of these claims were. Here are a few of the best quotes:

 

"Every day, the terrifyingly unsafe and deadly Brent Spence Bridge threatens the 200,000 people who cross it." (0:10)

 

Gee, I wonder why people incorrectly believe that the bridge is deteriorating and is about to collapse into the Ohio River! Where ever would they have gotten that crazy idea!

 

"But what would happen if we do not build a new bridge? What happens is that our roadway network collapses into complete gridlock." (0:40)

 

"The red line represents gridlock. And the thicker the red line, the longer you are in gridlock." (1:00)

 

"By 2040, nothing is moving on our roads." (1:20)

 

By 2040, "it will take over an hour and a half to drive the 12 miles from Florence, Kentucky to the Central Business District in Cincinnati" (1:58)

VMT projections always seem wild in my opinion. Every projection ends up with the area that it looks at becoming the next New York City within a few decades.

Thought experiment.  What about this concept to potentially re-route some north-south through traffic and truck traffic as Nashville and points south of us continue to grow.  

 

Build a new stretch of highway from I-71 near Carrollton, KY that crosses the Ohio River on a new bridge near Vevay, IN and travels through southeast Indiana meeting I-275 near Lawrenceburg, IN.  Make this the new I-71. Make I-71 concurrent with the north half of I-275 to where it heads north to Columbus.  Present portions of I-71 become I-471.

 

Then build a next generation nuclear power plant somewhere along the new stretch of highway.

 

Edited October 26, 20213 yr by thebillshark

It's bettter to be prepared than not prepared. I rather be wrong than right when it comes to building the bridge.

The transportation bill just passed. Now waiting on the Presidents signature. The bridge is still included in the scaled down bill. Now the region will have to pay for half of the cost.  

 

And the bridge will fully reopen Sunday.

Edited November 7, 20213 yr by unusualfire

Brent Spence Bridge discussed and photo featured.

 

With infrastructure vote, Buttigieg gains a multibillion-dollar tool to speed up megaprojects

The program is one part of an infrastructure package that includes what the White House calls the biggest investment in rail and transit

By Michael Laris

Today at 8:41 a.m. EDT

 

The $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill adopted late Friday creates a multibillion-dollar fund to spur the type of complicated, ambitious projects that have been stymied by decades of tentative investment and inattention from Washington.

 

Modern-day equivalents of megaprojects like the Hoover Dam can benefit broad swaths of the United States, but infrastructure experts say they have often stagnated. President Biden campaigned to address the issue. Now his transportation secretary, Pete Buttigieg, is tapped to speed up such projects, which can straddle state lines and take years to complete.

 

more

So with the bridge now being fully open both directions we are back to having the "normal" traffic flows. I know I'm beating a dead horse but it doesn't matter if they make a new bridge 20 lanes wide, as long as trucks struggle to get up a 5% grade and as long as the road turns due West directly into the setting sun; there will ALWAYS be congestion going up the cut-in-the-hill. 

 

During the last few months my commute North across BSB to downtown was 22 minutes on average. The past two weeks it has been 9 minutes on average. Now I know this is a self-centered world view but I think the "issue" of the BSB is overblown and really only rears it's head when a car wrecks/breaks down and there are no shoulders, but that's exactly the case on the Big Mac Bridge as well and no one ever talks about that one.

 

Can we spend infrastructure money instead on re-working the ramps, making room to expand downtown and the convention center, capping FWW, creating BRT routes etc etc. and not wasting it on a new bridge to fix a problem that doesn't exist? 

Beating a dead horse? Yep. We've got $1.2T that we are materializing out of thin air that needs a problem to solve that allows somebody to return some sort of favor to somebody else. Covington should look forward to a quarter of its core being under a freeway.../rant

Edited November 10, 20213 yr by Rabbit Hash

As Brad Thomas has been pointing out on Twitter, the bridge has had virtually no traffic problems since all of the lanes reopened, even during rush hours. Will things get more congested as more people return to work in offices downtown? Maybe... But will the CoMpLeTe GrIdLoCk predictions made back in the mid-2010s ever come true? Probably not.

 

 

 

https://aiacincinnati.org/programs/events/011222-salon-brent-spence-reimagined

 

Shameless plug for AIA virtual event about the Brent Spence bridge next Wednesday. This salon will explore effects of the Brent Spence Bridge project on local communities in Cincinnati and Kentucky, including traffic, the extent of demolition and clearance of existing neighborhoods and buildings along with other anticipated outcomes. There will also be a proposal for an improved version of the plan and plenty of time at the end for discussion/questions about how the current 'recommended alternative' can be improved upon as it moves towards final design and (potential) funding.

So the new I-74 opened in the Quad Cities with a sparkly new bridge that the new Brent Spence could focus on...

 

 

 

And could finally bring to life the old Kenwood logo!

 

 

 

...or they could just re-route I-75 somewhere else and turn it into what I-80 in the Quad Cities is doing...a Buffalo Preserve Bridge.

 

 

 

Either way, I'd be pleased. 

Brent Spence Bridge 2000-2021 Traffic Chart with updated projections 

On 1/9/2022 at 12:04 AM, ColDayMan said:

what I-80 in the Quad Cities is doing...a Buffalo Preserve Bridge

Are they *actually* going to convert that I-80 bridge? From my cursory googling, it seems like last news coverage was from summer 2021 about how the non-profit "Bison Bridge Foundation" was trying to get signatures to pressure the state DOT to examine it. Has there been any indication that the DOT is interested or willing to pursue this?

14 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Are they *actually* going to convert that I-80 bridge? From my cursory googling, it seems like last news coverage was from summer 2021 about how the non-profit "Bison Bridge Foundation" was trying to get signatures to pressure the state DOT to examine it. Has there been any indication that the DOT is interested or willing to pursue this?

 

I believe it's probably a dream project.  I can't see how this ever gets approved.

 

On 1/6/2022 at 10:57 AM, ucgrady said:

https://aiacincinnati.org/programs/events/011222-salon-brent-spence-reimagined

 

Shameless plug for AIA virtual event about the Brent Spence bridge next Wednesday. This salon will explore effects of the Brent Spence Bridge project on local communities in Cincinnati and Kentucky, including traffic, the extent of demolition and clearance of existing neighborhoods and buildings along with other anticipated outcomes. There will also be a proposal for an improved version of the plan and plenty of time at the end for discussion/questions about how the current 'recommended alternative' can be improved upon as it moves towards final design and (potential) funding.

I wasn't able to attend this event... is it possible to share any of the proposed alternatives? 

It was a mixture of pointing out the flaws in the plan, showing how it will effect the immediate area, environmental concerns, and ways that other cities have improved their urban highways and bridges. The only real proposed alternative was by the same person who is pushing Bridge Forward, which is basically to do a Fort Washington Way "West" on the West side of downtown, allowing the Convention center to expand and new developable land to be expanded in place of the spaghetti. 

Both governors meet tomorrow to give out the funding plan for the bridge.

Here comes more induced demand:

 

 

It will take at least 5 years to complete.  It looks like construction will start in 2024.

 

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/beshear-dewine-to-announce-funding-efforts-for-brent-spence-bridge

Beshear says there will be no tolls on Brent Spence Bridge

 

As he signed a key agreement with Ohio, Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear said there would be no tolls on the Brent Spence Bridge project.

 

Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine and Beshear signed a memorandum of understanding Monday pledging to work together to secure federal money to build the $2.8 billion Brent Spence Bridge project at a news conference at the Northern Kentucky Convention Center.

 

Beshear's statement was the first time he had definitively said there would not be tolls on the project.

 

"We’re going to be a secure a sizable federal grant under the infrastructure” bill, Beshear said when asked why.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2022/02/28/ohio-kentucky-governors-sign-brent-spence-agreemen.html

 

It looks like this project is happening. 

 

i wonder if there would be a way to include in this project creating a right of way for light rail along the western edge of downtown, possibly to connect to the airport? Maybe even a cut and cover tunnel if the whole area is going to be torn up?

One positive comment by Beshear, which hopefully gets echoed by ODOT since they are in charge of planning the project, “We will continue to look for opportunities to reduce costs and the footprint of the project and to engage our communities – Mayor Meyer, I wanted to say that punctually – to engage our local communities.”

 

There is a tremendous opportunity to reduce footprint on the Ohio side as well so again hopefully the designs that we have seen are not final and they actually do engage in some dialogue with the cities on both sides of the river. 

Somewhat disappointed this project is even moving forward at all. Imagine what $2.8 billion could do for the region spent on transit, improvements to local roads, road diets, etc. You could makeover every neighborhood business district in the city for that kind of money, expand the streetcar to key neighborhoods, and build out quite a few bus hubs that better serve the neighborhoods outside of the basin. Could be truly transformative.

 

Instead the city will get a bloated river crossing that will be a huge resource sink for its entire life, a life that isn't even necessary given traffic not actually increasing for years.

At this point I would say there is virtually no chance of getting a smaller bridge built or getting anything transit-related added in (light rail ROW or bus lanes, for example). Now that there is federal funding to cover the gap, the state DOTs are going to do the minimum amount of work and build the existing plan that's been sitting on the shelf for a decade.

 

This might be the last project of this type (mega highway bridge and multiple miles of approaches with no transit provisions whatsoever) ever built in the United States.

18 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

This might be the last project of this type (mega highway bridge and multiple miles of approaches with no transit provisions whatsoever) ever built in the United States.

 

Texas would like a word.

 

Guarantee you this won't be the last. 

I'm not too familiar with any mega highway infrastructure projects being built in Texas but don't they at least acknowledge concepts like "tolls" and "HOV lanes"?

 

The BSB project is uniquely bad because it's adding a ton of new lanes in a region that isn't actually growing that fast and where traffic counts have actually been declining (even pre-pandemic), doesn't impose any tolls on drivers, and doesn't have any transit lanes, HOV lanes, or other provisions that would benefit transit riders, encourage carpooling, or discourage single occupancy vehicles.

27 minutes ago, taestell said:

I'm not too familiar with any mega highway infrastructure projects being built in Texas but don't they at least acknowledge concepts like "tolls" and "HOV lanes"?

 

The BSB project is uniquely bad because it's adding a ton of new lanes in a region that isn't actually growing that fast and where traffic counts have actually been declining (even pre-pandemic), doesn't impose any tolls on drivers, and doesn't have any transit lanes, HOV lanes, or other provisions that would benefit transit riders, encourage carpooling, or discourage single occupancy vehicles.

I mean considering this project will probably not be completed until 2030 or later growth could certainly pick up we simply don’t know. My position is because a federal transportation bill of this size will probably not come around again for who knows how many decades the region would be foolish not to get this done now. 

1 hour ago, taestell said:

I'm not too familiar with any mega highway infrastructure projects being built in Texas but don't they at least acknowledge concepts like "tolls" and "HOV lanes"?

 

The BSB project is uniquely bad because it's adding a ton of new lanes in a region that isn't actually growing that fast and where traffic counts have actually been declining (even pre-pandemic), doesn't impose any tolls on drivers, and doesn't have any transit lanes, HOV lanes, or other provisions that would benefit transit riders, encourage carpooling, or discourage single occupancy vehicles.

 

The current big I-45 project in Houston has HOV lanes but the research is pretty clear that HOV lanes don't work to relieve congestion and they induce demand. So that's not really an upgrade. The project has no actual transit component. Par for the course for TxDOT.

 

https://archive.curbed.com/2019/8/5/20754435/houston-traffic-highway-i-45-north-txdot

I thought I saw there were local traffic lanes on the plan for the new companion bridge, does anyone know what streets those would connect? Would these local lanes be basically redundant with the Clay Wade Bailey bridge connecting the same area in OH and KY?

With the amount of money being spent on this project. How much rail could they build with that amount? Feel like that would work better than whatever their plan is going to be. 
 

With this new bridge will we be seeing any buildings in the KY side being demolished? 

Here are the links to the recommended alternatives for the Ohio and Kentucky sides which show all of the proposed lane configurations.

^ Those alternatives are not the newest of the new. That is showing the new bridge with split lanes which means bigger ROW due to the 4 emergency lanes on the new bridge. It also shows dividing local and I71, see below. 

 

The newest configuration, which has all the through traffic on the new bridge (single truss span, not divided cable stay as a money saver) and all the local traffic on the existing bridge. This simplifies traffic the most, and simplifies the ramps the most as well as reduced the cost.

 

The only reason it wasn't initially the plan is because it required tighter ramp radiuses which engineers are afraid of because they're engineers. 

 

EDIT: To the previous question of does this create a redundancy with the Clay Wade, as you can see above the answer is unequivocally yes. The existing Brent Spence is 1500' away from the Clay Wade and will become the local connection between Covington and Cincinnati so if it were up to me Clay Wade would just carry Tank buses and bikes. 

Edited March 1, 20223 yr by ucgrady

9 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

The newest configuration, which has all the through traffic on the new bridge (single truss span, not divided cable stay as a money saver) and all the local traffic on the existing bridge. This simplifies traffic the most, and simplifies the ramps the most as well as reduced the cost.

Do you have drawings that show the ramps with this latest configuration? 

6 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Do you have drawings that show the ramps with this latest configuration? 

Everything is online, but I can't find to-scale drawings of the latest "Whiz Bang" just conceptual drawings to show configuration and traffic counts but not to scale over satellite images like the older version. This at least shows how things would connect:

Still keeping the 4th Street ramp and not using the 3rd Street stub, I see...

Todd Portune had a plan a few years back for rail from CVG to downtown. Maybe they can tap more funds from this transportation bill before it drys up. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2014/07/24/obstacles-downtown-cvg-rail-idea/13111963/

I think giving the Clay Wade over to transit only would make a ton of sense. Above I mentioned it being 1500' away from the BSB, but that's from the Covington side (sorry I'm biased) but where they bridge lands at 3rd street in Cincinnati the two bridges are only about 200' away from each other. More importantly the Clay Wade easily could connect to the Riverfront Transit Center to be the TANK and/or rail station under 2nd street, which would make more sense than having all TANK lines meet in the bottom floor of a parking garage in Covington (which is a waste of time for downtown commuters but that's a separate topic). 

I think I understand this more now. The local lanes on the bridge plan aren’t really surface streets but the on ramps and off ramps for downtown Cincinnati and Covington exits. So from I-75 there is only one exit for all downtown Cincinnati and Covington at a point to the north and another to the south and all the exit ramps for stuff in between diverge off of that. So it’s effectively building a new downtown bypass for I-75 through traffic. (With a merger for I-71 traffic)

Edited March 2, 20223 yr by thebillshark

Correct, it reminds me of the Dan Ryan in Chicago where "local" means you have access to ALL the exits and "express" means next exit not until Pershing Ave or I-55 merger etc. 

Reminded me of the Alaskan way tunnel in Seattle.  Which leads me to think… Would be awesome if we could have the express route in a tunnel instead of a bridge and then reorient the local lanes to free up downtown real estate.

 

Cost for Seattle tunnel 3.3B

cost for BSB project 2.8B

 

distance for Seattle tunnel about 2.2 miles

distance Union Terminal to Covington 12th Street about 2.3 miles 

 

don’t know if a tunnel would have restrictions on truck traffic though, among other complicating factors

A tunnel might have HAZMAT restrictions. I've thought a tunnel would be a good idea, plus you could connect it to a capped I-71.

Despite potential progress on the future Brent Spence made in the last few weeks, the local KYTC 6 is moving forward with the "Texas Turnaround" starting next week with lane/exit closures. Between the fire on the bridge, then the painting of the bridge, now the texas turnaround and the future new bridge construction it's possible this one section of interstate will be under continuous construction for over a decade.

 

https://www.drivingnkyprogress.org/texasturnaround

 

Edited March 9, 20223 yr by ucgrady

On 3/15/2016 at 4:32 PM, unusualfire said:

I think you have it wrong  It's the Pike street merging that causes the backup northbound. 4th street has it's own dedicated lane across the bridge. I suggest extending 5th street to that 4th street merge to North I-75 and put a ramp meter there to manage the traffic flow.

 

I guess they took my suggestion. 

 

https://local12.com/news/local/how-it-works-a-breakdown-of-the-new-texas-turnaround-coming-to-nky-traffic-fourth-street-covington-pike-north-south-i-71-75-cincinnati-northern-kentucky-local-12-wkrc-tristate-ohio-indiana-kytc-transportation-cabinet

Edited March 12, 20223 yr by unusualfire

ODOT's average daily traffic figures for the BSB for 2021 were released- 148,639.

 

I'm not a statistician, but it looks like the projected numbers are going up and the reality is going down....It's almost like a cognitive dissonance exists around this project and highway expansion in general in this country.

 

It's stupid, but I'm resigned to the fact this project will get built anyway so I'm just focused on trying to make it as small as possible and giving back land to downtown and on limiting the negative impact on both sides of the river. 

34 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

ODOT's average daily traffic figures for the BSB for 2021 were released- 148,639.

 

What are the various dotted lines? I feel like a legend/key would help. 

This project is such a boondoggle. We need a westside bridge connecting the top of the hills in the area of Anderson ferry Road to the top of the hills in KY and 275. Connect the westside to all of the airport commerce and the thousands of jobs!!

This would relieve pressure off of the BSB, and allow airport businesses to tap into that huge labor pool in OH. I can't believe Amazon isn't pushing for this in an age where we all order eveything in our home piecemeal online, as it also opens up delivery routes.