Really great to see them finally coming around to adding a Third Street to I-75 NB connection and removing the Fourth Street ramp. This is going to be very good for the Historic West Fourth Street district as it's going to eliminate the highway thru traffic on that street. A former DOTE official also told me that he was in favor of converting Fourth Street to two-way but it couldn't be done unless/until that ramp was removed. So I hope that idea can be revisited once the new bridge is open.

 

18 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

This ramp was partially built back in 2000, when they anticipated that the new BSB was going to break ground by 2005:

https://www.google.com/maps/search/convention+center/@39.0987118,-84.5193466,89m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

I heard that during the FWW redesign, the engineers had to make an educated guess about where that ramp would eventually go and put in a stub at that location. Well, they didn't guess exactly right, because in earlier BSB designs, they couldn't make that geometry work, so they were planning to keep the Fourth Street ramp. However, in the newer design posted above, there is a more significant redesign of all the ramps west of Plum Street, and they are able to fit that connection in.

The full FWW "system" upgrade was really contingent on the shift of the NB75 ramp from Fourth to Third St.  20+ years later and it still hasn't happened.  After any Bengals game or other large riverfront event, things get entirely snarled on Second and Third St. because the NB75 traffic coming out of the Banks garages gridlocks the Elm and Vine St. overpasses.  This means SB75 also backs up because it must cross the NB75 cars.   

 

Edited November 7, 20222 yr by Lazarus

Twitter thread from Aftab, announcing "with support from ODOT for our proposed alternative plan, we are proud to come together and roll out a design for the Cincinnati side of the Corridor that can add roughly 9.5 acres of usable land to our city": 

 

Business Courier article: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2022/11/10/city-odot-propose-adding-10-acres-to-cbd.html

While this is an improvement, it doesn't feel like much of a win. Obviously it allows for more developable land with the removal of the 4th Street ramp but I guess I'm skeptical that the land will all that desirable. I assume it could only be used as office space and that might be awhile before someone takes that step. 

The really disappointing thing about this project is that it could be a great opportunity to convert the east/west streets downtown to two-way, if only for a couple blocks, and not only is that not happening but it's not clear that this will allow for that in the future. It would be great if the 5th Street viaduct could go away with all that traffic going to 6th, and the 7th Street viaduct gets turned into a ped/bike overpass

Yeah it really feels like ODOT is trying to just shoo us away.  Aftab is stuck in the middle because he can't afford the stain of being "The Mayor that Delayed the Brent Spence Replacement," but you can tell he wants something better.

If the city would have pushed back 5 or 8 years ago, we probably could have gotten something better. But Cranley was a pro-car mayor who couldn't have cared less about the potential of adding more developable land in the CBD. Aftab's administration successfully got ODOT to improve the plans but it's too late in the project to scrap everything and go with the Bridge Forward approach. I know I'll probably get downvoted again for saying that, but it's true. I wish it wasn't true, but it is.

27 minutes ago, taestell said:

If the city would have pushed back 5 or 8 years ago, we probably could have gotten something better. But Cranley was a pro-car mayor who couldn't have cared less about the potential of adding more developable land in the CBD. Aftab's administration successfully got ODOT to improve the plans but it's too late in the project to scrap everything and go with the Bridge Forward approach. I know I'll probably get downvoted again for saying that, but it's true. I wish it wasn't true, but it is.

 

No, you're 100% right. The problem with the big redesign is that it's too late and ODOT would never go for it at this stage. The time to think big was a decade ago and sadly we missed that window. The 10 acres is a huge win, even if it isn't the most prime real estate. 

The land opened up certainly wouldn't be desirable for mixed-use Residential. And I doubt there will ever be enough office demand to develop that. If there is a serious push by the business community to get an arena built, my money is on it being there.

Frisbee Golf course

On 11/11/2022 at 9:51 AM, taestell said:

If the city would have pushed back 5 or 8 years ago, we probably could have gotten something better. But Cranley was a pro-car mayor who couldn't have cared less about the potential of adding more developable land in the CBD. Aftab's administration successfully got ODOT to improve the plans but it's too late in the project to scrap everything and go with the Bridge Forward approach. I know I'll probably get downvoted again for saying that, but it's true. I wish it wasn't true, but it is.

Considering the progressive design build of the project, its not too late. And it would "not scrap everything" to go with that project.

14 hours ago, 10albersa said:

The land opened up certainly wouldn't be desirable for mixed-use Residential. And I doubt there will ever be enough office demand to develop that. If there is a serious push by the business community to get an arena built, my money is on it being there.

Based on the latest ODOT designs, I think you could comfortably fit an arena the size of Kansas City's or Louisville's in the area SW of the 5th St/Central Ave intersection. The other developable parcel (NW of 5th St/ Central Ave) might be able to fit an arena but it would be very tight. 

 

^ I think the idea is that the 5th/6th "parcel" is earmarked for the convention center expansion.

13 minutes ago, CincyIntheKnow said:

^ I think the idea is that the 5th/6th "parcel" is earmarked for the convention center expansion.

 

This is way better than the 2012 Olympics plan, which was to build the expansion over the highway trench, which would have been much more expensive.  

 

The KC convention center is built over an interstate highway trench, and is ugly:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kansas+City+Convention+Center/@39.0979172,-94.5875345,676m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x87c0f05c5860673b:0x4ed5729686424334!8m2!3d39.0982534!4d-94.5874878

 

 

 

https://local12.com/news/local/gov-beshear-kentucky-should-get-word-brent-spence-bridge-companion-project-federal-funding-before-years-end-congress-infrastructure-highway-traffic-cincinnati-ohio#

 

Gov. Beshear: Ky. should get word on Brent Spence companion funding before year's end

Edited December 16, 20222 yr by GHOST TRACKS

So the new bridge, Southbound traffic will be on the bottom deck while the old bridge will carry Southbound traffic on the top deck. 

So from East to West we have a yellow bridge (DCB), a purple-ish bridge (PPB), a white bridge (TSG), a light blue bridge (RSB), a rusty bridge (CWB) and a grey bridge (BSB).

 

I like the tied-arch design but I think it needs color to really stand out since it sits so close to the existing grey BSB.  Bengals orange? Reds red? Yellow to provide symmetry? If Diamondback at KI is anything to go by red fades to pinkish really fast, and too much yellow will make us look like Pittsburgh, but I think orange arches would be pretty awesome. 

This is so ugly.  So unnecessary.  

 

In twenty years the original Brent Spence will be the new Purple People Bridge, but with a dog park, community garden, and Wi-Fi.  

What’s the argument as to why they cannot just build the new bridge then demolish the Brent Spence? The new bridge looks nice but having the Brent Spence right next to makes that whole section ugly. 

37 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

What’s the argument as to why they cannot just build the new bridge then demolish the Brent Spence? The new bridge looks nice but having the Brent Spence right next to makes that whole section ugly. 

The argument is that the old bridge is functional and it saves money on the new bridge, and the traffic counts are expected to continue to grow over time as it will allow for more shipping and trucks to transverse the region. The old bridge was always structurally fine, it is just too small for the traffic load. They just need to double the amount of lanes and this is the most economical way to do so.  

^Except most of the traffic is unnecessary traffic.  Lots of it is simply people driving from Covington to Newport by crossing the Ohio River twice.  Tolls put an end to that frivolous behavior.  That's why traffic has gone down in Louisville after the DOT's built two brand-new bridges.  

Not only that, but literally none of the traffic projections for the region's highways have come true and are constantly being revised downward. Peak traffic is something a lot of places, including Cincinnati, have reached.

 

There's almost no need for more lanes here. The actual configuration is mainly the issue, as is how traffic is directed regionally. Trucks shouldn't be going over the bridge, especially when heading south, as they can take 275. Tolls can be used to incentivize locals to use the underutilized local bridges. A reconfiguration, and maybe one more lane each direction for good measure, is all that's needed. A new bridge, one smaller than they're proposing, can effectively solve the entire problem if they simply adjust how different users cross the rive.

 

This combination of new bridge + Brent Spence will allow for more capacity than any other automobile crossing on earth (or at least was a bit back, that factoid might be a bit dated, not sure). That's wildly unnecessary here. Cincinnati isn't seeing traffic increases at all, let alone enough to warrant this.

Edited December 20, 20222 yr by jmicha

One problem with tolling though, is that Kentucky would never let it happen. 

5 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

One problem with tolling though, is that Kentucky would never let it happen. 

 

Then we don't build a new bridge and can spend $3 Billion on something else. Sounds like a win win (being a bit facetious here, because I know it's not an outcome we could ever expect, and most of that money couldn't just be rerouted to a more important project)

I'd think a bridge replacement is the correctly scaled project. Yes, we all know the Brent Spence isn't actually at the end of its life, but it's a terrible design that directly causes problems.

 

A new bridge right next to it that has 3 or 4 lanes in each direction with proper shoulders and sightlines, then shift the ramps over to the new bridge. Call it a day. I bet that could be done with current prices for $700,000,000-$900,000,000. Save the region a couple billion, save tens of millions on future maintenance costs over the next few decades, greatly reduce accidents that cost locals money. Win win win (win?) for everyone.

On 11/14/2022 at 12:23 PM, jwulsin said:

 

I wonder if you could put the US 50 stuff (shown in pink) into a tunnel and tighten up the spaghetti even more in order to claim more developable land on the downtown side. 

A big problem with doubling-down on this corridor is that it continues to allow Covington to bypass itself.  All of those people south of 12th (including Latonia) get on I-75 at MLK to travel into Cincinnati.  In the past, they crept along Madison north to the Suspension Bridge in a similar fashion to the creeping of Bellevue and Dayton residents along Fairfield.  Pike St., once a pinch point, is now almost as aloof as Short Vine.  

 

Bellevue still has an intact business district because of the traffic.  Newport and Covington do not, because you can easily bypass their traditional downtowns thanks to completely free expressways.   

 

But hey, let's bypass the bypass.  

2 hours ago, Lazarus said:

^Except most of the traffic is unnecessary traffic.  Lots of it is simply people driving from Covington to Newport by crossing the Ohio River twice.  Tolls put an end to that frivolous behavior.  That's why traffic has gone down in Louisville after the DOT's built two brand-new bridges.  

Tolls were never going to happen. Let's build the bridge, and even if there is a ton of excess capacity, in a number of years it will encourage more logistic based development along the corridor because the traffic infrastructure will allow it. It will mean more people and jobs. If you build it they will come.  Cincinnati can then become the city with 3 cars for every driver. People will then have choices on what to drive on any day. 

 

One thing for certain, if you build it, there cars will follow unless you do not do something to negatively influence them. 

1 hour ago, thebillshark said:

I wonder if you could put the US 50 stuff (shown in pink) into a tunnel and tighten up the spaghetti even more in order to claim more developable land on the downtown side. 

I have been wondering why US 50 cannot be routed along 3rd and Linn Streets west of FWW. As people are driving west, just have them go down to Central Avenue and go around the spaghetti mess. There's such low through traffic going east and west, there's no down side to making them stop at a light or two, meanwhile the spaghetti mess could be drastically reduced.

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

A big problem with doubling-down on this corridor is that it continues to allow Covington to bypass itself.  All of those people south of 12th (including Latonia) get on I-75 at MLK to travel into Cincinnati.  In the past, they crept along Madison north to the Suspension Bridge in a similar fashion to the creeping of Bellevue and Dayton residents along Fairfield.  Pike St., once a pinch point, is now almost as aloof as Short Vine.  

 

Bellevue still has an intact business district because of the traffic.  Newport and Covington do not, because you can easily bypass their traditional downtowns thanks to completely free expressways.   

 

But hey, let's bypass the bypass.  

 

Covington doesn't have an intact business district? When's the last time you were in Covington? This isn't true at all. 

28 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Covington doesn't have an intact business district? When's the last time you were in Covington? This isn't true at all. 

I agree. Covington has several distinct nodes of commercial activity.

On 12/20/2022 at 1:12 PM, jmicha said:

literally none of the traffic projections for the region's highways have come true

 

A decade ago, OKI claimed that virtually all Greater Cincinnati interstate highways would grind to a halt by 2017 if the new BSB wasn't built:

 

Seems like 10-15 years ago OKI was really conservative-dominated -- even moreso than other Ohio MPOs at the time.

 

love Righty extrapolation skillz

On 12/20/2022 at 3:53 PM, DEPACincy said:

 

Covington doesn't have an intact business district? When's the last time you were in Covington? This isn't true at all. 

I think you could argue that it does not have a walkable business district by the Brent Spence until you get to 4th street and East until you get to the Convention Center. But to your point, Main Strauss and the Roebling area, and The wedding district area of Covington are very distinct walkable neighborhoods.  The fast food mess down by the Brent Spence would not qualify of course. I think that changes though now that the IRS Center is closed and being redeveloped. 

Check out  https://publicinput.com/bsbc for Brent Spence presentations given at ODOT's recent neighborhood meetings.

The bridge will get 1.6 billion in federal funds.

 

https://local12.com/news/local/brent-spence-bridge-project-to-get-16-billion-in-federal-funding-cincinnati-northern-kentucky-covington-sherrod-brown-odot-kytc-campanion-through-traffic-71-75-jobs-act-infrastructure#

Edited December 29, 20222 yr by unusualfire

14 minutes ago, unusualfire said:

The bridge will get 1.6 billion in federal funds.

 

 

This thread is almost 19 years old.  

 

From 2000 - so 23 years ago:

 

BRENT SPENCE BRIDGE HAS TO GO

by John Schneider

Cincinnati Post 3/9/00

 

Sooner or later, it's gotta go. Probably by 2012, certainly no later than 2020, the I-71/75 Brent Spence Bridge over the Ohio River will be become a regional choke point not worth repairing any more. Originally built with three lanes in each direction, one person in the know says an Atlanta- like total of fourteen lanes might be needed in 20 years. A few years ago, a fourth lane was squeezed onto the bridge by doing away with the safety shoulders, perhaps one reason the accident rate on the Brent Spence is 750 percent higher than the average Kentucky freeway rate.

 

The Ohio-Kentucky-Indiana Regional Council of Governments has studied the bridge for Kentucky's Transportation Cabinet, which owns it. OKI considered how and when a Brent Spence replacement should be built and what it might look like. Hopefully, it won't look anything like the double-decked Brent Spence, but more like the yellow-arched Daniel Carter Beard Bridge carrying I-471 over our eastern riverfronts. With both directions of traffic open to the sunlight, side-by-side spans are easier to maintain and, well, prettier. Prettier is important. For Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky, a new Brent Spence could be a great way to show off, a gesture to our bigger-city aspirations.

 

The world's most stunning bridges usually nest at the necks of great coastal bays. They are scaled to accommodate ocean shipping. They endure. Beautiful freshwater bridges are more rare, but you can find them. You can find them right here. The World Almanac already credits the Tri-State with two of the nation's 30 or so ''notable'' suspension bridges with spans over 1,000 feet: Covington's John A. Roebling Bridge and Maysville's Simon Kenton Memorial Bridge.

 

A majestic bridge - high and wide and supremely functional - may hinder the development of Cincinnati's far-western riverfront, now within reach because of Paul Brown Stadium. The wider the bridge, the larger the dead zone beneath it. With all those driving lanes and curvy ramps, Superbridge and its entourage will cast shadows that the best riverfront planning may fail to overcome.

For that matter, there isn't much room for a new Brent Spence. One avenue of OKI's thinking is to build twin spans, one on each side of the current Brent Spence, and then demolish the old bridge when the new one is complete. This geometry is pretty tough. A hotel and a Cinergy transformer farm stand in the path of a wider bridge. We don't need to guess about the impacts of this project. Economic and environmental modeling is so advanced these days that we'll have a good understanding of what will happen to our city when Superbridge moves 200,000 vehicles a day compared to fewer than 150,000 now.

 

Will those 50,000 extra vehicles be going further out, contributing to more sprawl? Does Superbridge further dilute the critical mass needed to build a first-class light rail system? How about the idea of, say, 5,000 more semi-trailer trucks climbing out of the Ohio River Valley every day, trailing diesel smoke to Florence and West Chester? Then there's the optimists' case: 20 years from now, 200,000 cars and trucks will probabl y run cleaner than 150,000 of them do today.

 

Here's something else to consider: Look for the state of Ohio to attempt to capture the NAFTA Highway, a putative trade link between Montreal and Mexico City. Right now, the NAFTA Highway is supposed to go through Indianapolis. Some thoughtful Cincinnatians believe that it should come through the Tri-State instead.

 

Which begs the question: Do we really want the NAFTA Highway? It has been suggested that hosting it would be a prestigious honor. But maybe the NAFTA Highway also means, for Cincinnati, Louisville and Memphis, dirtier air and a lot more trucks.

 

Maybe we can do better. Perhaps Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky should focus instead on higher-value products that don't move by truck - biotech, communications and Ken Griffey come to mind.

As I think more about it, maybe Indianapolis should get the NAFTA Highway after all. If it behaves and doesn't make things worse, I could learn to love Superbridge. Especially if it can be one of those fog-piercing, twin-masted, cable-stayed types more commonly found in Asia and Europe. If we're going to keep things moving around here, a new Brent Spence is essential. But the devil's in the details, and how we start to deal with them is pretty important, even now.

 

With new and wider highways plugged into each end of it, the Brent Spence will soon become a burr under Ohio and Kentucky's shared saddle. Pressure will build to ''Do Something!''

Keep an eye on this. My guess is persons on both sides of the river - a little wiser these days - will agree to fashion a durable and symbolic landmark. The consensus solution will likely be a remarkable blend of science, economics, engineering and art.

 

 

1 hour ago, unusualfire said:

The bridge will get 1.6 billion in federal funds.

 

https://local12.com/news/local/brent-spence-bridge-project-to-get-16-billion-in-federal-funding-cincinnati-northern-kentucky-covington-sherrod-brown-odot-kytc-campanion-through-traffic-71-75-jobs-act-infrastructure#

Wow it’s actually happening. Big shout out to The Biden Administration for getting these kinds of projects done after so long being stalled under other administrations. The Biden Infrastructure bill is truly a game changer for the country.

Edited December 29, 20222 yr by 646empire

I have such mixed feelings about this whole thing because at my core I still really don't think we need a new BSB and that this amount of money could go so much further in improving the region if spent on things like mass transit. But the other side of me knows that's not how this works and is just happy that something is finally happening and very happy that it is going to be done without tolls, which I believe would've actually made traffic worse by shifting the traffic to other bridges that can't handle it (see Louisville).

 

I still have hope that the discussions brought to the forefront by Bridge Forward will lead to more improvements on the west end of downtown and that all this investment can help the urban core (like in Covington where the money will also help fix a 50+ year old storm drainage issue caused by the cut-in-the-hill) but at the end of the day I just keep coming back to how much money is being spent to basically make 'express lanes' on a new bridge that will be almost entirely used by semi-trucks and people from michigan who are just passing through the region.

Edited December 29, 20222 yr by ucgrady

Question: does the region have enough construction capacity to work on the Brent Spence companion bridge and the new Western Hills Viaduct at the same time?

 

Also kind of crazy but: I assume in any case there will be lots of workers and specialists from outside the region here working on this project, given the enormous scope of it. I wonder if the project could be set up in such a way to take some millions out of the multi billion project budget and build housing (like a large multi unit building close to the site) for traveling bridge construction workers? Then the building could be changed over to normal housing after the project is done and be sold off.  They could jump start Covington IRS development or fill in a parcel at the Banks like this. 

7 hours ago, thebillshark said:

Question: does the region have enough construction capacity to work on the Brent Spence companion bridge and the new Western Hills Viaduct at the same time?

 

Also kind of crazy but: I assume in any case there will be lots of workers and specialists from outside the region here working on this project, given the enormous scope of it. I wonder if the project could be set up in such a way to take some millions out of the multi billion project budget and build housing (like a large multi unit building close to the site) for traveling bridge construction workers? Then the building could be changed over to normal housing after the project is done and be sold off.  They could jump start Covington IRS development or fill in a parcel at the Banks like this. 

I have also wondered how it will effect the regional construction market. Is the city, and other local governments, going to have to pay even more for their projects, because there won't be any contractors with the workers to take them on?

I wonder  when they will determine that type of structure the new crossing will be.  The more recent renderings show an arch bridge.    Either way with the existing BSB immediately adjacent the combination will not be attractive especially when viewed from downtown or looking east while crossing the bridge.   I noticed in the renderings they also show the C&O RR bridge being repainted.  Unfortunately it has become a rusting eyesore and I doubt CSX will invest in a new paint job anytime soon.

President Biden will visit Northern Kentucky Wednesday to tout Brent Spence Bridge project

By Chris Wetterich  –  Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

Jan 3, 2023

 

President Joe Biden will make his third visit to Greater Cincinnati as president on Wednesday morning, heading to Covington to take a victory lap a week after his administration announced it would kick in more than $1.6 billion for the Brent Spence Bridge project.

 

“The president will deliver remarks on how his economic plan is rebuilding our infrastructure, creating good-paying jobs that don’t require a four-year degree, and revitalizing communities left behind,” according to the White House.

 

MORE

16 minutes ago, The_Cincinnati_Kid said:

heading to Covington to take a victory lap

 

I believe that the DOTs will have to agree on a name.  That means the new Brent Spence Bridge won't become the Beau Biden Build Back Better Bridge.  

 

I vote for Son of Brent Spence.  

 

 

 

 

 

On 12/31/2022 at 9:14 AM, GHOST TRACKS said:

I wonder  when they will determine that type of structure the new crossing will be.  

 

It'll be the first Ohio River Bridge with a wooden loop.  

Mitch McConnell Memorial Bridge

Wrong bridge:

24 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

Wrong bridge:

Lol, I think it’s for the best camera angle, I’m watching it on Tv and it’s perfect,  if they got too close you would see just dirty Ohio river water when they zoomed in on the speech givers.

All those politicians down at the shoreline and not one discussed the other vital infrastructure project needed there: the return of Jeff Ruby’s floating restaurant known as The Waterfront!