It's the same reason why there is movement on combining Metro and TANK or building a new transit-only bridge to directly link the two cities near the IRS building.

 

There's movement on either of these ideas? Outside of UO?

I'm sorry, I meant to write NO movement! 

Incredibly a new bridge was funded with state money between Race St. in Cincinnati and Madison in Covington back around 1994, but all of the funding was diverted to build the bridge in Maysville, KY.  It was probably within a year of breaking ground when the project was scrapped.   

There was a crew this morning doing maintenance work. Sparks were flying, which makes me think they're doing metal repairs and/or preparing the metal for painting.

 

 

It looks like they chipped off a lot of loose concrete too. It seems that particular area had a lost of rusting issues with the bearing pads.

Agreed.  I was down there not that long ago and the concrete wasn't nearly that bad, so I bet Sherman is right that they went in and deliberately chipped away any concrete that they could get to come off in preparation for rustproofing and patching. 

Since it's ky's bridge who pays for that even though the work is on the Ohio side?

Since it's ky's bridge who pays for that even though the work is on the Ohio side?

 

Ohio maintains the Ohio approach and a point about 100 feet out over the river.  That's where the official state border is. 

It's only Kentucky's bridge until it reaches the state line - which is essentially the northern river bank. The Ohio approaches are maintained by ODOT.

I would assume, though I have no verification of this, that even where the main span of a bridge crosses the Ohio border, it would still be Kentucky's responsibility since it's a contiguous structure.  That's relatively close to the state line for Brent Spence and Clay Wade Bailey but starts to get murky as you go farther east.  The Suspension Bridge I assume would have to include the cable anchors as part of Kentucky's responsibility, even though it's literally planted on Ohio soil, but maybe not the roadway between them until it transitions to the metal deck.  Even the north tower of the Suspension Bridge is on the Ohio side of the border.  A good third of the Taylor Southgate Bridge is on the Ohio side, with the main truss ending on the north side of Mehring Way.  The Big Mac Bridge ends pretty much right on the shore, but there the border is well out in the river, almost half way in the arch span.  I haven't the slightest idea how the Purple People Bridge would be divvied up.  Probably a good question for someone at ODOT or KTC.   

You are correct, so far as Kentucky actively maintaining the whole structure, but there might be a shared funding formula.  The year-to-year costs of maintaining these bridges are pretty predictable so it's unlikely that anything but the most anomalous event would cause a budget problem for Ohio. 

The Brent Spence Bridge does have a share funding formula for maintenance but I can't remember the ratio. Other bridges are built in a similar fashion - such as ODOT taking the lead on costs for the new Ironton-Russell Bridge (even though it's mostly in Kentucky), KYTC taking on the costs for the newer Maysville Bridge, KYTC taking on the costs for maintaining the Simon Kenton Bridge, ODOT taking on the costs of the US 23 Portsmouth Bridge, KYTC taking on the costs of the Portsmouth Bypass, so on and so forth.

Just getting around to reading this two week old article, but apparently Gov. Bevin (who supports a bill that would ban tolls on the BSB) believes that "GARVEE bonds" could be used to fund the new bridge. Does anyone have any insight to how these might work?

Well I think what is happening is that Bevin wants to get his people a piece of the action, that's why he's attempting to scrap the current plan.  He will come back with a different plan that puts the $'s in different pockets. 

^Perfect reason why we should just do a replacement bridge next to it, rework the ramps, and demolish the existing one instead of the massively over-engineered version we currently see.

 

Why would we replace the current bridge? Just rework the ramps to the current BSB and we're good.

Because all bridges do have a practical lifespan and the BSB is close to the end of its.

 

If continued proper maintenance had been done on the bridge a restoration right now might be fine, but it hasn't. The current scheme already advocated for over $100 million just to restore the BSB and then revisit it in a couple decades since it's still an old bridge that will continue to need far more maintenance than a newer bridge.

 

That and it is a dangerous bridge. Regardless of anyone's feelings towards driving it's just not an intelligently designed situation. No shoulders+terrible sight lines for anyone northbound, especially trucks, and the need for multiple lane shifts in a short distance results in a bridge that is prone to accidents. Restoring the bridge to stand another 20 years before replacement, spending all that money, and still being left with a bridge that isn't safe and still needs excessive regular maintenance wouldn't be a good use of money.

^That's a sobering argument jmicha[/member]. The problem with the bridge is and always will be its location, no?.

 

Jake probably has a better grasp of the history on the Ohio side but Covington and Kenton County business interests drove the location of the Covington-Florence Expressway to dive down the Willow Run Creek valley to put traffic directly into Covington. This either created or exacerbated the alignment on the Ohio side to conflict the CWB approaches. Hence the ridiculously high Ohio BSB approaches. 

It's functionally obsolete - not structurally, and is set for a major painting contract that will cost $38 million. That is just preventative maintenance that all bridges need - even a cable stayed or a tied arch bridge (that was what was proposed - correct?). If it's not painting, it's replacing cables, painting concrete to weatherproof it and doing deck overlays and replacements.

Setting the speed limit to 45MPH and indicating it as such with large flashing lights (and possibly speed cameras to really drive the point home) on the approaches on either side would probably eliminate most of the accidents. It wouldn't add much to travel times as it's such a short section of interstate.  Eliminating the southbound exit to 5th Street, and the 4th Street onramp to northbound 71/75 would also improve safety dramatically as it would eliminate the need for drastic lane shifts, though that depends upon the possibility that the Covington Fast Food Lobby could ever be overcome.

Nobody here is saying it's structurally deficient. That doesn't mean it's not dangerous for users though. It's a bridge that can't handle its capacity.

 

And truss bridges have far higher maintenance needs than a suspension bridge. Replacing cables is a once-every-few-decades maintenance activity and beyond that there is very little unique maintenance to them. They utilize far less materials, have far less connections, and far less surface area than a truss bridge. Every single weld, bolt, structural element, etc. adds up on a truss bridge to much greater maintenance needs.

 

^How would reducing the speed limit to a speed that isn't even achieved at the most accident-prone times help at all? The accidents are mostly caused by weaving at a time when traffic isn't predictable which has nothing to do with its speed, but rather the fact that so many people are trying to get on/off all at the same time. Rush hour accidents are super common and nobody is getting anywhere near 45 mph during rush hour over the bridge.

^ The last few accidents that have caused fatalities and closed the bridge have occurred outside of rush hour. "Rush Hour" is also a bit of a misnomer here - I look out my office window directly at the bridge every day and there's typically only a 10-15 minute period of actual congestion on the bridge, right after 5:00 PM. Mornings typically ave little to no congestion on the bridge itself, just the northbound approach. Other than during that 15 minute period, traffic is moving at at least the speed limit. There are probably more crashes during those 15 minutes than any other given 15 minutes, but I have less concern about them because they are rarely fatal or even the cause of serious injury. Reducing the speed limit at all times would make merging safer and reduce fatal crashes.

I drive across the bridge during rush hour but I never get stuck in traffic because I'm always driving the non-peak direction. Whenever I drive from OTR to CVG on a Monday morning, there is virtually no traffic headed across the bridge in that direction. How many billions of dollars are we willing to spend to prevent a rush hour congestion that only exists 30 minutes in one direction in the morning and 30 minutes in the other direction in the evening? I'm sure many NKY residents who work downtown would say we should spend any amount necessary but that doesn't make it a good investment. Traffic congestion simply isn't that bad in Cincinnati and anyone who disagrees has never spent that much time driving in any large U.S. city.

Hence a replacement being a better plan. No need for an increase in capacity, but a new bridge is going to be necessary in the next couple decades regardless of what happens, preventative maintenance or not. A bridge that is designed to modern standards and uses a design that is easier/cheaper in the long run to maintain while reducing accidents but not adding unnecessary capacity is a good choice.

There are two major factors at play with this ongoing saga:

1. Cincinnati has conspired for 20 years to reduce and eventually eliminate direct highway access to the Covington riverfront

2. NKY is of no concern to KY state politicians...Louisville gets all of the attention, and NKY is down there with the Owensboros and Paducahs and Bowling Greens when it comes to winning US Senate seats or the Governor's office.

 

I've mentioned it on this site before but it's worth restating that in response to Corporex's developments near the Suspension Bridge, Cincinnati acted to both scuttle plans for a new bridge (that was at one point fully funded) linking Race St. and Madison Ave. and the FWW reconstruction eliminated the I-71 ramp that led directly to the Suspension Bridge.  Some of you will remember that the center single-lane tube of the Lytle Tunnel used to lead directly to the Suspension Bridge, and that "Covington" signs appeared overhead on SB 71 up near the Reading/Eden Park Dr. interchange.  Tellingly, the Lytle Tunnel exit that once led to Covington now leads directly to...Queen City Square.  So look no further than the turds behind that ugly tower for your source of all this nonsense. 

 

Meanwhile, the City of Covington is still, from what I understand, on the hook for the big parking garages that support the Rivercenter towers, the Marriott, the Embassy Suites, etc.  Those garages were built by the city, then the developer got use of them as platforms for their mid-rise towers.  Those towers have since lost their tenants, in no small part because it has gotten more difficult to access that location.  Covington has been in a financial tailspin ever since, since it, like Cincinnati, it much more dependent on earnings tax revenue than it is property tax.

 

Cincinnati wants that 5th St. ramp eliminated to bury the Covington riverfront forever.  No new bridge at Race/Madison, no integration of the Clay Wade Bailey into FWW or I-75 reconstruction. 

 

Jake do you have any more info on that proposed bridge? drawings, website mentions, etc?

No, I haven't been following it closely.  I probably haven't been to a public meeting in 5 years.  The last one I remember going to was in some building next to the Wooly Mammoths off of Gest St.  I think another one was at the NKY convention center.  Maybe 50 people showed up.  They should have had these meetings at the neighborhoods all over the metro and advertise them well.  I saw many more people at the Eastern Corridor meetings than at any Brent Spence meeting. 

hmm thanks.

No, I haven't been following it closely.  I probably haven't been to a public meeting in 5 years.  The last one I remember going to was in some building next to the Wooly Mammoths off of Gest St.  I think another one was at the NKY convention center.  Maybe 50 people showed up.  They should have had these meetings at the neighborhoods all over the metro and advertise them well.  I saw many more people at the Eastern Corridor meetings than at any Brent Spence meeting. 

 

The actual bridge doesnt run through a neighborhood, so maybe this keeps people from thinking it doesnt affect them?  Or maybe people are convinced nothing will ever happen at all...

The $2.6B Brent Spence Bridge project is on the brink

 

“We’ve clearly won on the issue of tolls. There will not be tolls to finance that project,” said Joe Meyer, a former Kentucky Democratic legislator and candidate for Covington mayor who is a co-founder of the leading anti-toll group Northern Kentucky United. “The current plan for the Brent Spence Bridge corridor is dead. Period.”

 

grabs popcorn...

So no new bridge...except for the one in New Richmond, OH. Yay!

So no new bridge...except for the one in New Richmond, OH. Yay!

 

And meanwhile on the radio this morning they were talking about a report that found that Cincinnati has the 4th easiest commute in the country.  Yet the local media is easily coerced into thinking that we have some sort of exceptional traffic problem here that allows big road projects like the I-75 widening to continue without any criticism. 

What's so great about this project is that all of the politicians are taking extreme positions and they're all convinced that they're obviously right.

 

"OMG it's gonna fall into the river!" (paraphrasing) --State Senator Bill Seitz (Republican from Green Township)

 

"The current plan for the Brent Spence Bridge corridor is dead." --Joe Meyer

 

How about everyone calm down and let's have a rational discussion about what is actually needed here.

Not sure if this has been analyzed by UOers but what does everyone think of this plan to change ramps?

 

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nkyunited/pages/111/attachments/original/1450801137/Brent_Spence_Entry_and_Exit_Improvements_w_Existing.pdf

Not sure if this has been analyzed by UOers but what does everyone think of this plan to change ramps?

 

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nkyunited/pages/111/attachments/original/1450801137/Brent_Spence_Entry_and_Exit_Improvements_w_Existing.pdf

That would be a heckuva grade down from the top deck to the intersection (Add about 20' + in elevation vs. the existing on-ramp).  I probably can't find it published in design standards anywhere, but the FHWA probably would have an issue with the 2 ramps, right and left diverging at the same point.  Left exit ramps are frowned upon too

 

What are they saving in time vs. the existing off ramp from I-75 SB to 5th Street?

It would be great to simply set out some barrels and block off the signs and close the 4th/5th St. ramps for 2 weeks and see what happens.  Everyone would adjust.  The Covington hotels and fast food and gas stations would hate it, but boo-hoo. 

 

The lowest-cost solution to all of these issues is to augment the existing Clay Wade Bailey Bridge > 2nd St. connection.  I-75 SB could exit directly onto this thing, meaning that with just one stoplight I-75 could have direct access to this bridge.  Meanwhile, a new ramp could go from the 2nd St. connector down to Central Ave., and therefore lead directly to the I-75 on-ramp at 4th & Central.  There's probably a way to create a contraflow lane between that ramp that travel under 3rd and so mean there would also be just one stoplight on the Ohio side of the river.  Meanwhile, a new bridge connecting Race & Madison could serve I-71 and Columbia Parkway traffic to Covington, plus handle all TANK buses and a streetcar line. 

 

Total cost of everything mentioned is certainly less than 10% of the cost of the BSB plan that has been in the works for 15 years. 

 

 

Not sure if this has been analyzed by UOers but what does everyone think of this plan to change ramps?

 

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nkyunited/pages/111/attachments/original/1450801137/Brent_Spence_Entry_and_Exit_Improvements_w_Existing.pdf

That would be a heckuva grade down from the top deck to the intersection (Add about 20' + in elevation vs. the existing on-ramp).  I probably can't find it published in design standards anywhere, but the FHWA probably would have an issue with the 2 ramps, right and left diverging at the same point.  Left exit ramps are frowned upon too

 

What are they saving in time vs. the existing off ramp from I-75 SB to 5th Street?

 

I think the planners are thinking that they'll reduce the amount of weaving if they allow Covington-bound cars to exit on either side (4th street on the left, 5th street on the right). I think in reality it will add even more confusion to that side of the bridge.

How many studies does this bridge need???? I wish I was in the business of making studies.

Not sure if this has been analyzed by UOers but what does everyone think of this plan to change ramps?

 

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nkyunited/pages/111/attachments/original/1450801137/Brent_Spence_Entry_and_Exit_Improvements_w_Existing.pdf

 

This is the first time I've seen this PDF, but we've discussed similar things before in this thread.  Jake has the right idea here.  Just eliminate the NB 4th street entrance ramp and NB 5th street exit ramp entirely, and then find a way to compensate Covington to make it more palatable.  It would be relatively easy to reconfigure the Pike/MLK interchange(s) to serve the Covington riverfront since there's already a ramp from NB 75 that leads to 5th street.  Yes, it would take a little backtracking to go north from 4th street since you'd have to swing around to Pike, but there's already a dedicated ramp for that and it's much better than building a new bridge.

 

//EDIT:  I spent 5 minutes with Google Maps and Microsoft Paint to create a visual of what I'm describing.  This preserves the ability to exit 75 at 5th both NB and SB, and to enter 75 NB from Pike.  It eliminates the dangerous NB 4th street ramp that also causes most of the NB traffic backup, but preserves the ability to enter 75 NB from 4th via a counter-intuitive but easy turn around to Pike.  You could eliminate the SB 5th street exit as well, and people could still get there via the SB Pike exit, but it may not be worth it.  The current configuration is on the left and the modified configuration is on the right (sorry this is so big. If it were smaller, you couldn't see the changes at Pike):

 

 

I think you have it wrong  It's the 5th street merging that causes the backup northbound. 4th street has it's own dedicated lane across the bridge. I suggest extending 5th street to that 4th street merge to North I-75 and put a ramp meter there to manage the traffic flow.

I think you have it wrong  It's the 5th street merging that causes the backup northbound. 4th street has it's own dedicated lane across the bridge. I suggest extending 5th street to that 4th street merge to North I-75 and put a ramp meter there to manage the traffic flow.

 

I think by 5th, you mean Pike because 5th doesn't have a NB entrance.  You are correct about the merging at that ramp, of course, but consider this:

 

1) If the 4th street NB ramp didn't exist, the Pike street NB ramp would get the dedicated lane across the bridge, so that backup would not occur. 

2) Even though 4th street currently has a dedicated lane, that ramp causes additional problems because people coming from 4th to 75 make dangerous lane changes near the 71/75 split.  If the closest entrance to the 71/75 split was Pike street, the perceived urgency for a lane change would be lessened, causing less accidents and impact to traffic.

So a car flew over the side of the Combs-Hehl Bridge last week:

http://www.700wlw.com/articles/local-news-119585/update-surveillance-footage-shows-car-going-14496196/

 

This bridge has emergency shoulders and clear sight lines.  This encourages a much higher speed, which improves capacity.  But it also sets the stage for spectacular wrecks, although this one was quite extraordinary. 

New law makes Brent Spence Bridge tolls illegal

 

Kentucky Gov. Matt Bevin signed a law on Friday that bans tolls on interstate bridges that connect Ohio and Kentucky.

 

That could cause problems for funding the $2.6 billion Brent Spence Bridge project.

 

In reality, what was known as House Bill 309 makes it possible for private money to be used to fund public projects except in the case of any highway connecting Ohio and Kentucky without authorization from the General Assembly. That essentially rules out the option of tolling for the Brent Spence Bridge.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/04/12/new-law-makes-brent-spence-bridge-tolls-illegal.html

That has all the hallmarks of a law that will come back to bite Kentucky in the ace.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Go, Bevin, go! Keep dragging out this project until it's ultimately cancelled.

He's making Cranley look like a godsend.

Is there any doubt that this was all planned and executed with money from parties with interests in southern Bone, Kenton and Campbell counties? So resources that should be going to alleviate traffic problems on 71/75 will be going to expand access for warehouse facilities and suburban homes.

Is there any doubt that this was all planned and executed with money from parties with interests in southern Bone, Kenton and Campbell counties? So resources that should be going to alleviate traffic problems on 71/75 will be going to expand access for warehouse facilities and suburban homes.

 

Yep.  And I think the Eastern Bypass is a foil.  What I mean is there is no real intention of getting the Ohio portion built.  NKY has wanted a real expressway connecting rural Campbell County and I-75/71 for a long time.  That opens up 100,000 acres to suburban development.  The Licking River Valley south of I-275 is the most scenic part of the Cincinnati area.  They know they can get huge money for lots overlooking it.  The dilemma of course is that the sound from this road and a big bridge over the Licking valley is going to mar the ambiance. 

 

 

Is there any doubt that this was all planned and executed with money from parties with interests in southern Bone, Kenton and Campbell counties? So resources that should be going to alleviate traffic problems on 71/75 will be going to expand access for warehouse facilities and suburban homes.

 

Yep.  And I think the Eastern Bypass is a foil.  What I mean is there is no real intention of getting the Ohio portion built.  NKY has wanted a real expressway connecting rural Campbell County and I-75/71 for a long time.  That opens up 100,000 acres to suburban development.  The Licking River Valley south of I-275 is the most scenic part of the Cincinnati area.  They know they can get huge money for lots overlooking it.  The dilemma of course is that the sound from this road and a big bridge over the Licking valley is going to mar the ambiance.

 

And KY 536 isn't good enough??? I guess not. They want interstate grade to connect over to 27. And yes, those plans have been brewing since like the mid-1970s. No sooner than 275 being a sure thing they were already drawing lines on maps.

Well I just measured it and it's 13 miles due east from I-75 at the I-71 interchange to US 27 just south of 536.  Definitely longer in reality than I thought it was in my mind.  Getting to that spot right now from I-75 or I-471 takes a solid 20 minutes for either.  It's also 20 miles from that same interchange to the Ohio River.  This is really a *huge* bypass road that they're talking about building. 

Concrete repair is underway on the piers near Longworth Hall: