I am so happy this project is dead for now.  I'm not opposed to tolls, I AM opposed to the horrific super sized 20 lane highway boondoggle that was going to take away hundreds of parcels of tax producing properties, demolish 30% of Longworth Hall and cost a fortune.

Just saw this on the Build Our New Bridge Now website:

 

 

It's really amazing that they are getting away with this. Tell people year after year that the bridge is dangerous and about to fall into the river. Then post a bunch of "testimonials" on your site from people who are scared to drive over the bridge. Then use that as justification for getting funding for the new bridge.

 

And the fact that "Often times I'll find alternate route" is supposed to be a bad thing is amazing. Guess what, sometimes one bridge is congested or closed for some reason, so I'll drive across a different one. That's how a transportation system is supposed to function.

lol at the concerns of middle-aged suburban white women from Kentucky. We should be building a new bridge for THEM. Think of the white women!

lol at the concerns of middle-aged suburban white women from Kentucky. We should be building a new bridge for THEM. Think of the white women!

 

And f we listened we would get this....

Just realized that the Anderson Ferry now charges $5 to take your car across the river (although it's as cheap as $3.35/trip if you buy a 40-trip pass). I know some West Siders that use the ferry to cross the river since it's a shorter trip than using the Brent Spence Bridge. If a private business is charging $5 to transport your car across the river, why should the federal government offer a free option that puts the Anderson Ferry at a disadvantage?

^Yes, the Anderson Ferry rates have gone up significantly.  It was $3 15 years ago. 

 

 

Donald Trump promises to replace Brent Spence Bridge with money U.S. has pledged to the U.N.:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/11/04/trump-makes-closing-argument-wilmington-rally-brent-spence-bridge/93285474/

 

The Anderson Ferry is an oddity, in that it has survived for so long with a free bridge so close by - on both sides! Also, the connecting road on the Kentucky side is less than ideal, and the ferry closes during adverse river conditions. What is really telling is that drivers are STILL willing to pay the toll, to save time!

 

The obvious technical solution to the Brent Spence Bridge traffic delay is to toll the existing bridge. It need not be tolled all of the time, but just the busy times. Tolls should be set to reduce the volume enough to keep traffic moving. Drivers who don't want to pay the tolls could schedule their trips around the busy times, use an alternate route over one of the other 5 bridges, or simply skip the trip. Of course, the technical solution and the political reality are two different things.

Huh? There aren't any free bridges very close to the Anderson Ferry. It really is the quickest way for some west siders to get to CVG and much quicker than using one of the two interstate bridges.

 

For the past couple of years, the UrbanCincy writers have been throwing around the idea of building two new local bridges across the Ohio River, one near the Anderson Ferry and one linking Columbia-Tusculum with Dayton, KY. Building those two bridges would cost an order of magnitude less than the new BSB, and would actually provide new mobility for neighborhoods in a way that the BSB won't.

^ Per Google maps, the Brent Spence Bridge is 9 miles or 14 minutes driving time from Anderson Ferry on the Ohio side, and the Carroll Cropper bridge is 20 miles or 25 minutes driving time from Anderson Ferry on the Ohio side. With traffic it will take longer.

 

It takes up to 5 minutes to wait for the ferry, and about 5 minutes to cross the river. Thus, the total ferry trip is 5 to 10 minutes depending on wait time.

 

So, the Ferry saves a little time, but not much. I haven't looked for a similar example, but I doubt that there are many ferries left in the United States that are so close to a free bridge.

^ Per Google maps, the Brent Spence Bridge is 9 miles or 14 minutes driving time from Anderson Ferry on the Ohio side, and the Carroll Cropper bridge is 20 miles or 25 minutes driving time from Anderson Ferry on the Ohio side. With traffic it will take longer.

 

It takes up to 5 minutes to wait for the ferry, and about 5 minutes to cross the river. Thus, the total ferry trip is 5 to 10 minutes depending on wait time.

 

So, the Ferry saves a little time, but not much. I haven't looked for a similar example, but I doubt that there are many ferries left in the United States that are so close to a free bridge.

 

Your times/distances to the bridges is only half the journey though. You have to calculate the total time to get from the west side of town to the airport (for example) not the time just to get to the bridges.  To get from Covedale to the airport takes 35 minutes via Carroll Cropper or 27 minutes via Brent Spence at best. 

^ I think if you map out the travel times, you will find that the ferry mostly serves Delhi residents. The farther north or west you are, the more convenient it is to take the interstate to one of the other bridges.

 

The point is that some drivers are willing to pay a cash toll to save time. I think this proves that tolling the Brent Spence bridge is technically a viable option, if the political impediments could be resolved. Those who are willing to pay would do so; if the tolls are set properly, the peak volume will be reduced just enough to keep traffic moving. 

 

 

OK Trump, you won Ohio, where's our free bridge? http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/11/07/trump-promises-brent-spence-bridge-replacement.html

^ Nope. He only said it to get votes.

Will a massive infrastructure bill be passed by a Republican House and Senate and get signed by a Republican President? My expectations are quite low.

^ Well, Trump did double down on his infrastructure promise in his victory speech last night:

 

We are going to fix our inner cities and rebuild our highways, bridges, tunnels, airports, schools, hospitals. We're going to rebuild our infrastructure, which will become, by the way, second to none, and we will put millions of our people to work as we rebuild it.

 

I think the question will definitely lie with Congress. I'm not so sure they'll be on board.

They are repairing the support piers... and have erected a large frame/scaffolding with an I-frame "foundation" (which I assume is temporary). I'm not totally sure what the plan is, but it appears that they might be adding two new piers. Perhaps it was determined that it necessary to entirely replace/supplement the existing piers. In other cases, they have simply repaired the exterior 4-6 inches of concrete.

 

I also noticed that ODOT did this with a lot of overpasses -- just poured an additional layer of concrete on the outside of the existing supports.

The anti-toll people have two groups/pages on Facebook. NKY United is the one where they keep it professional, and another called We Are Against Brent Spence Tolls where they get a bit more political. They recently posted, "Hillary has been TRUMPED!" It's pretty ironic for a group that hates public-private partnerships, and constant posts about how they never work, celebrating the election of a President who has pledged to use ... wait for it ... public-private partnerships to build infrastructure.

Now that  Elaine Chao has been named Transportation secretary, who's husband just happens to be Kentucky's senior senator, what does that do for the chances of a new Brent Spence? There's got to be an earmark planned for this now right?

Now that  Elaine Chao has been named Transportation secretary, who's husband just happens to be Kentucky's senior senator, what does that do for the chances of a new Brent Spence? There's got to be an earmark planned for this now right?

 

McConnell is the only one to sneak a huge earmark into a bill in a generation...the Olmstead Lock & Dam earmark was slipped into the bill that ended the government shutdown back in 2013:  http://www.rollcall.com/news/policy/lock-and-dam-provision-not-an-earmark-reid-explains

 

Has McConnell ever made a statement regarding the new BSB and whether or not he supports tolls to fund it?

Has McConnell ever made a statement regarding the new BSB and whether or not he supports tolls to fund it?

 

Doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter what any of these people say with Trump in charge, since he deliberately confuses any conversation. 

 

 

So its entirely possible that after all the confusion that will transpire over the BSB we'll get a WIREMOBILE!!?

Ferries will save millions over Brent Spence Bridge

 

I keep reading about how Cincinnati City Council wants to spend $2.6 billion WE DON'T HAVE on a replacement for the Brent Spence Bridge. Why has no one proposed buying a fleet of ferries like the Anderson Ferry to shuttle the additional cars across at rush hour? I don't understand why Council is so fixated on building this bridge boondoggle when ferries can do the same job at a fraction of the price. In addition to being cheaper, ferries are more flexible. They can be moved down the river to take people across the river for Reds or Bengals games on the weekends. Instead of building this bridge, we should buy ferries and use the billions of dollars of savings to hire more firefighters and police officers. It's common sense people!

Ooooh, I want to read that link but you forgot to make it a link.

^ That LTE was published by the Enquirer but it no longer exists on their website.

Why would the Enquirer even publish such nonsense? Oh, right. It's the Enquirer.

Tolls are going to be a huge win for the rental car industry. They can charge a 'convenience fee' of basically whatever they want to pay the tolls the driver accrues plus recoup the tolls.

 

Why would the Enquirer even publish such nonsense? Oh, right. It's the Enquirer.

 

It was a joke.

Work is finally complete on Louisville's two new bridges and rebuilt "spaghetti junction". Aside from the fact that they spent $2.6 billion on highway widening and wasted so much valuable urban land on this interchange, they have also set up a completely backwards tolling system that literally pays drivers to take extra, unnecessary trips across the bridge.

 

The way that it works is that if you buy a transponder, each trip across the bridge costs $2. However, if you make 40 trips in a single calendar month, you are given a $40 credit. So if you take 35 trips, you will have paid $70 in tolls. But if you take five additional trips, you'll earn that $40 toll credit, bringing your total monthly bill down to just $40.

 

This is going to result in a bunch of extra traffic on the bridge as people take extra trips just to meet that threshold. Let's say you work in Louisville but live in Indiana. In a normal month, you'll cross the bridge at least 40 times as you drive to and from work each day. But in February 2017, there are only 20 weekdays, so let's say that you're off work for President's Day. Well, now you only have 38 bridge crossings, so you have to find an extra reason to drive into Louisville and back again so that you hit 40 crossings and earn your $40 credit.

 

It turns out, Kentucky is look at this as an economic development opportunity. Louisville's business newspaper said this:

 

What if you’ve made, say, 38 trips in a calendar month? You’d pay $76. So you would want to consider taking at least two more trips across one of the bridges, perhaps for dinner or shopping. Then, the 40-crossing threshold would be met, taking your payment down to $40 for the month.

 

It's just completely counter to the reason why we should be setting up tolls in the first place, which is to manage (reduce) the traffic volume, discourage unnecessary trips, and make the people who use the bridge most pay for it.

 

 

That's nuts! Btw I drove through Louisville earlier in the month to see family in Evansville and I was like holy crap do they really have enough rush hr traffic to justify such a huge highway and interchange? We went through there about 11am on a Friday and there were maybe 10-20 other cars on highway with us at the time.

New East End bridge & tunnel opened this month:

That's nuts! Btw I drove through Louisville earlier in the month to see family in Evansville and I was like holy crap do they really have enough rush hr traffic to justify such a huge highway and interchange? We went through there about 11am on a Friday and there were maybe 10-20 other cars on highway with us at the time.

 

Apparently the DOTs wanted to build either a second I-65 bridge or a new bypass bridge on I-265. They couldn't agree so their compromise was to build both. That's insane! Can you imagine that happening with anything but a road project? "We couldn't agree whether to build high speed rail from Cincinnati to Chicago or Cincinnati to Cleveland... so we funded and built both!"

No doubt that Louisville is experiencing the most dramatic change in travel patterns of any metro in US since the interstates were initially constructed. 

Delaware River Turnpike Bridge, which carries I-95 over the Delaware River, is closed indefinitely due to a cracked truss member:

http://www.phillyvoice.com/delaware-river-turnpike-bridge-remain-closed-least-two-weeks-after-repair/

 

This bridge is just a few years older than the Brent Spence Bridge, and is of comparable size and construction.

 

I'm not sure what that has to do with the Brett Spence. Different maintenance techniques, different conditions it exists in, different freeze / thaw cycles, different traffic loads, different funding mechanisms for maintenance, etc. etc. etc. are what matter, not construction type.

 

And even saying that, this bridge is an arch bridge. The Brett Spence isn't. On top of that the portion that cracked isn't the main span, it's a small span on the approach ramp.

And even saying that, this bridge is an arch bridge. The Brett Spence isn't. On top of that the portion that cracked isn't the main span, it's a small span on the approach ramp.

 

The Delaware River Bridge is a continuous truss arch bridge. It is very similar to the Brent Spence in that it is a fracture critical truss structure supported by riveted steel beams. I'm not saying the BSB is going to suffer the same failure as the Delaware River Bridge but they are more similar than different.

I'm definitely not an expert on truss bridges so I'll cede to you since you sound like you know what you're talking about.

 

But even so, the main span isn't the area affected here. It's one of the small standalone spans on the ramp leading to the main span. This would be like if one of the ramps leading from Fort Washington Way to the bridge had a fracture. The main bridge isn't affected at all.

I'm not sure this is considered fracture critical on the approach ramps, which is where the crack occurred at. The loss of a truss member redistributed those stresses to other truss members, which hasn't caused a complete collapse.

 

Fracture critical is where one component failure leads to a catastrophic collapse. It's why the Interstate 71 bridge over the Little Miami River is being replaced, and why several along Interstate 90 between Cleveland and Buffalo were replaced. Especially after the collapse of Interstate 35W in Minneapolis, transportation departments have been more vigilant than ever in getting fracture critical bridges replaced or monitored around-the-clock.

Periodic reminder: the current bridge is fine structurally, it's just "functionally obsolete" (carries more cars than it was designed for). Even the supporters of building an additional bridge now admit that the current bridge "isn't in danger of falling into the river" like they originally implied.

I'm not sure this is considered fracture critical on the approach ramps, which is where the crack occurred at. The loss of a truss member redistributed those stresses to other truss members, which hasn't caused a complete collapse.

 

Agreed. The BSB used standard cantilevered beam approach ramps so it is unlikely to suffer a failure in the same vein as the Delaware River Bridge. With that being said, the main spans of these bridges are very similar in their construction. Much like the Carrol Cropper Bridge which carries 275.

I'm interested to get some opinions on the phenomenon the article below is referencing to the new toll bridge in Louisville. Toll proponents argue that these divergent trips to free local bridges would go down over time and that remains to be seen with the Lincoln bridge however the BSB situation is very different. According to proponents approximately 4% of the nations GDP utilizes the corridor and the way 275 is located it makes it impractical for it to be an effective truck bypass.

 

If a P3 tolled BSB is built we'll see a higher utilization of all the local bridges and I-471. Also the proposed configuration with a southbound exit to the CB bridge would make it easier for southbound drivers to bypass the bridge. All this seems like a massive waste of over a billion dollars and sets up another defaulting toll project for everyone to be upset about for years.

 

Louisville’s experiment in transportation economics

 

By Joe Cortright  19.1.2017

 

As we pointed out yesterday, there’s some initial visual evidence–from peak hour traffic cameras–suggesting that Louisville’s decision to toll its downtown freeway bridges but leave a parallel four-lane bridge un-tolled has produced a significant diversion of traffic away from the freeway. Perhaps without knowing it, Louisville has embarked on an interesting and useful economic experiment.

 

One of the big questions in transportation economics is what value people attach to travel time savings: How much is it worth to me to shave five or ten minutes off my daily commute?  There are a lot of theoretical arguments about the value, but there’s nothing quite like an actual experiment which gives people real world choices and observes the results. And that’s just what Louisville has done. If you’re traveling across the Ohio River between Jeffersonville, Indiana and Louisville, Kentucky, you have a couple of choices: you can pay between $1-$4 and drive across the shiny new multi-lane I-65 bridges on the freeway, or you can use the old US 31 route, and take the 1930s-era Second Street Bridge for free.

For southbound traffic on the BSB, the tolling cameras should be placed north of the bridge so that it captures cars headed south on either the BSB or the CWBB. At some point, the I-471 bridge should be tolled as well so that there is no temptation for traffic to divert to the other interstate bridge.

I'm more interested in the AADT/VPD (traffic counts) than what people can guess from traffic cameras, but it is a valid point.

 

US 31/Clark Memorial Bridge has always been a conduit from Indiana to downtown Louisville, as it feeds directly into Interstate 65 for points north. There was one intersection between Interstate 65 and the Ohio River crossing in Indiana, but that was rebuilt into an interchange. Historically, the bridge carries 14,800 (2009) but it has been as high as 21,000 (1994). 11% of the traffic is trucks. (link).

 

Let's compare that to Interstate 65/Kennedy Bridge. It carried 121,000 (2008) but has been as high as 136,000 (2007) (link). It was pegged at 91,600 back in 1988, so the growth has been there, and it can be argued that a second span was warranted. The 2011 closure of the I-64/Sherman Minton Bridge clogged the I-65 bridge (as I can personally attest on many occasions) but there is no AADT numbers past 2008. About 27% of the traffic is trucks (measured about 20 miles south at the last truck counter).

 

The opening of the I-265/East End Bridge isn't as much of a bypass for I-65, but for Kentucky traffic on I-64 and I-71 to enter Indiana and get to I-65 and points west and vice versa, especially outside of rush hour. I-64 through Cherokee Park is only four-lanes total and cannot be widened because of the Cherokee Park tunnels, and is at LOS C-F for much of the day - pretty much at free-flow capacity. I-71 is also just four-lanes northeast of downtown, although there are plans to widen the highway to six-lanes.

 

--

 

Let's compare the available routes through Louisville for I-65 travelers to compare the Kennedy Bridge:

1. I-65 as a through route from Shepherdsville, Kentucky north to Sellersburg, Indiana is about 26 minutes in good traffic and 28 miles. It has tolls.

2. I-65 to I-265 east/north to I-65 from the same points is about 43 minutes in good traffic and 46 miles. It has tolls.

3. I-65 to I-264 west to I-64 west to I-265 north to I-65 is about 35 minutes in good traffic and 37.5 miles.

4. I-65 to I-64 west to I-265 north to I-65 is about 34 minutes in good traffic and 35.4 miles.

 

Routes 1 and 4 go through downtown which can be snarled in rush hour. Route 2 is almost always clear except for when Ford's Truck Plant has shift change near Pewee Valley.

 

No one uses US 31 as a through route alternative to I-65, which is what the article may be indicating. you have to exit onto local streets, go through downtown, and then cross the Ohio River. Google pegs it at a four minute delay but that's not realistic, especially if I-65 is free-flowing.

 

--

 

To summarize, the I-65/Kenndy Bridge is best suited for through drivers and for people going to points outside of downtown. If you work in downtown, you were already taking US 31 as it provided direct connections to I-65 in Indiana. I think you might see some conversions of people who work in south-central and south-of-downtown of I-65 travelers, as they typically exited/entered at Jefferson/Liberty streets but it's not enough to empty the bridge.

 

I-265/East End Bridge is best suited for through and local traffic that was already on I-265 and for those on I-64 and I-71 in Kentucky (and vice versa).

 

I have long advocated for tolls for this project and believe it will help bring congestion relief if properly implemented and used. For instance, tolled facilities should have their tolls pay off bonds and maintain their facilities - versus having their revenues diverted to transit projects (e.g. Pennsylvania Turnpike) or for pet tourism projects (e.g. Tamarack in West Virginia). In Pennsylvania Turnpike's instance, $600 million of its $980 million annual budget is in debt service; $450 million goes to pay for transit projects in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. The Turnpike doesn't go through either of these cities and bypasses both, which has led many projects to be deferred - such as the Pittsburgh Southern Beltway, PA 43, three-lane widening of the mainline, etc. It also makes traveling on the Turnpike extremely expensive on a per-mile basis, especially compared to the Ohio Turnpike, the West Virginia Turnpike and the Indiana Toll Road. The high tolls don't really provide congestion relief as many of these trips have no alternate routes.

 

--

 

On a personal note, I was an advocate and fan of 8664, the proposal by some to remove I-64 from Louisville's waterfront. That plan would have worked best if traffic diverted to I-265/East End Bridge and if the eastern I-265 interchange with I-64 was reconfigured, and would have removed through traffic from the city. It would have also cut down on a lot of ramps in downtown Louisville's Spaghetti Junction.

I'm beginning to think that the whole 4% of GDP statistic can't possibly be true. If you look at all the total components of GDP, 46.07% are 'intangibles' which can't really move across a bridge. Here's a list of the categories that compose that 46.07%

 

  Information

  Finance, insurance, real estate, rental, and leasing

  Professional and business services

  Educational services, health care, and social assistance

  Arts, entertainment, recreation, accommodation, and food services

 

And here's the full list

 

  Agriculture, forestry, fishing, and hunting 1.42%

  Mining 1.43%

  Utilities 1.28%

  Construction 4.31%

  Manufacturing 18.57%

  Wholesale trade 4.95%

  Retail trade 5.23%

  Transportation and warehousing 3.42%

  Information 4.94%

  Finance, insurance, real estate, rental, and leasing 17.83%

  Professional and business services 11.14%

  Educational services, health care, and social assistance 8.08%

  Arts, entertainment, recreation, accommodation, and food services 4.09%

  Other services, except government 2.11%

Government 11.21%

 

Data source- https://www.bea.gov/industry/xls/GDPbyInd_GO_1947-2015.xlsx

 

I'm beginning to think that the whole 4% of GDP statistic can't possibly be true. If you look at all the total components of GDP, 46.07% are 'intangibles' which can't really move across a bridge. Here's a list of the categories that compose that 46.07%

 

  Information

  Finance, insurance, real estate, rental, and leasing

  Professional and business services

  Educational services, health care, and social assistance

  Arts, entertainment, recreation, accommodation, and food services

 

Maybe they are counting the intangibles? Every time the Bengals take their bus across the bridge on their way to the airport, a significant piece of the local entertainment/recreation GDP utilizes the bridge.

Periodic reminder: the current bridge is fine structurally, it's just "functionally obsolete" (carries more cars than it was designed for). Even the supporters of building an additional bridge now admit that the current bridge "isn't in danger of falling into the river" like they originally implied.

 

That's true, but the Brent Spence Bridge is not going to last forever. The Delaware bridge event was a surprise, and the same thing could happen here, too.

Which is why bridges should be routinely inspected and well maintained.

Many of the trucks crossing the bridge are half-empty or completely empty.  Local trucks drop off more than they pick up or they pick up more than they drop off.  They're full in the morning and empty in the afternoon or vice-verse. 

Steve Chabot is currently serving his eleventh term representing Southwest Ohio in the U.S. Congress. That's a total of 22 years of service, all consecutive except for a single term (2008-09). If a new Brent Spence Bridge was truly a national priority, Mr. Chabot would have made an effort to pass a bill that grabs federal funding for the new bridge.