I don't think a cable-stayed bridge could support the capacity of I-75/71, unless they split the interstates on two different bridges.

I wouldn't mind a new bridge with a design similar to that of the Big Mac bridge.  It would then give the cluster of bridges to similar looking bookends.  It is also a classic look that won't become dated as I predict cable-stayed bridges will.

 

With that design I would imagine that you could either do a double or single deck bridge and carry all of the traffic needed.

Cable-stayed is a far cheaper alternate in many cases, but most of the new bridges built in the past ten years along the Ohio River have been... cable-stayed. Kind of boring after a while. The cable-stayed demostration bridge in East Huntington, WV (to Proctorville, OH) is beautiful for its simplicity, but its a design that's been replicated one too many times, in my opinion.

 

The new Corridor D bridge in Parkersburg, WV over the Ohio River to Belpre, OH is a welcome change -- it's a tied arch span.

 

    Whatever the configuration, it will be challenging to make a wide bridge look appealing. They want about 6 lanes in each direction, and the river is only about 1500 feet wide. All of the other bridges in the photos upthread have an aspect ratio that is a lot narrower.

 

    I still don't think it's going to be built, though.

Ugh. Look at the Kennedy Bridge in Louisville. It's a cantilever design and pretty bulky for just a six-lane bridge, as it passes over a waterfront park (although it was all industrial not all that long ago). The second bridge at that site (to parallel the existing bridge) will be... cable-stayed. Can't get any worse than that.

 

I would say a double decker bridge would be highly approperiate for this location, given the urban constraints and the efficiency of a tiered design. Having a 12 lane bridge, with two 12' shoulders, is just extremely wasteful in space.

>I still don't think it's going to be built, though.

 

I agree, this project is cued behind other major projects and there is the very real possibility of significantly less trucking and vehicular traffic in the next 5-10 years.  If overall traffic 10% below current levels and on a downward trend, it will be difficult to argue for such a massive replacement.  And going back to a post from a few months ago, if various improvements to approaches and alternate routes could be made that reduced overall traffic on the bridge by 10% in addition to a nationwide reduction in trucking and car commuting, you're up to 20% and a significant extension of the bridge's lifespan.   

 

And if traffic does indeed drop that precipitously, the argument for closing the bridge and replacing it in its current location becomes much stronger.  As is it's suffering from the Big Dig syndrome, where traffic has to be maintained or else the galaxy stops spinning, and honestly I don't think the region would suffer too badly from an 18-month closure.  And of course with a high quality light rail system there would be no need for any of this. 

I wouldn't mind a new bridge with a design similar to that of the Big Mac bridge.  It would then give the cluster of bridges to similar looking bookends.  It is also a classic look that won't become dated as I predict cable-stayed bridges will.

The new Corridor D bridge in Parkersburg, WV over the Ohio River to Belpre, OH is a welcome change -- it's a tied arch span.

 

Yup, this is exactly what I was thinking of.  Now I know what those are called, yay.

>I still don't think it's going to be built, though.

 

I agree, this project is cued behind other major projects and there is the very real possibility of significantly less trucking and vehicular traffic in the next 5-10 years. If overall traffic 10% below current levels and on a downward trend, it will be difficult to argue for such a massive replacement. And going back to a post from a few months ago, if various improvements to approaches and alternate routes could be made that reduced overall traffic on the bridge by 10% in addition to a nationwide reduction in trucking and car commuting, you're up to 20% and a significant extension of the bridge's lifespan.

 

And if traffic does indeed drop that precipitously, the argument for closing the bridge and replacing it in its current location becomes much stronger. As is it's suffering from the Big Dig syndrome, where traffic has to be maintained or else the galaxy stops spinning, and honestly I don't think the region would suffer too badly from an 18-month closure. And of course with a high quality light rail system there would be no need for any of this.

 

All good points.  Since you mentioned light rail...  I've been hoping the Cincinnati will put light rail to vote (again) in the near future.  Assuming that a line runs with I-75 into NKY, does anyone know what that would do to the funding for the Brent Spence replacement?  If light rail were to share a bridge with I-75, would that open up other funding possibilities that aren't available to an expressway-only bridge?

With the airline industry as is now would you have a line to the airport?

 

  Realistically, the airport and most of the related businesses around it are going to be severely limited by the decreased petroleum supply. I would expect traffic from Ohio to the airport to decline substantially.

Support fading for Brent Spence tolls

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080719/NEWS0108/307190020/1055/NEWS

Keep your fingers crossed.  I realize 1 bill ain't sheeet!!

 

House votes to boost bridge spending, inspections

http://www.wxix.com/Global/story.asp?S=8731088

Plus: Bill allows for improvements of structurally deficient bridges

 

Con: Brent Spence is functionally obsolete, not structurally deficient.

 

Oh well, perhaps the new president will place domestic spending as a priority.

 

Added: Strucurally Deficient Bridges of 1st Congressional District, Ohio, Second District, Ohio, 4th District, KY

A couple well-placed runaway barges and major truck fire on the bridge should solve that problem. :evil:

The Minneapolis bridge opened today. It took just 13 months to build.

The Minneapolis bridge only cost 234 million and took a year to build. I think we can reroute traffic through I-471 and deal with it a year instead of 15.

Officials: Speed Brent Spence work

Ohio, Ky. leaders want action on bridge

By Patrick Crowley • [email protected] • October 9, 2008

http://nky.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20081009/NEWS0103/810090364

 

 

A group of local officials from Northern Kentucky and Ohio has banded together to work on expediting replacement of the Brent Spence Bridge between Covington and Cincinnati.

 

The group, which calls itself the "Bridge Builders," includes representatives from Cincinnati, Hamilton County, Covington and Campbell County.

Oh my, the trust fund is bankrupt and Kentucky shot down tolls. You can't do anything without funding. Speed up the design all you want, but without the greenbacks this project will go nowhere.

Tolls are the only way this will get done. Unless the feds print more money.

To me this seems to be the most conservative choice.  What's new...

 

Officials: Build adjacent bridge

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081213/NEWS01/812130352/1055/NEWS

 

A new Brent Spence Bridge just west of the existing Cincinnati-Covington span could slash the project's estimated $3 billion cost, expedite its construction and protect economic interests on both sides of the river, regional officials said Friday.

 

Other alternatives among a half-dozen potential sites to be analyzed in a report next month, local leaders warn, could undercut Cincinnati's plans for development in Queensgate and leave Covington with no direct southbound access from a new Interstate 75/71 bridge between Ohio and Kentucky.

They should have a plan in place right now to take advantage of Obama's infrastructure stimulus package.

Sorry, it doesn't work like that.  Until there is a published Record of Decision coming out of an EIS, they can't build anything with federal money.

 

They have been talking about this bridge for decades. The only missing piece is financing. the prices have ballooned from 700 million to over 3 billion. If it can be built now for 1.5 billion that's over 1.5 billion saved.

"You'd have to decide you wanted to exit in Covington about three miles back in Cincinnati," Klein said. "It would be very harmful."

 

I'm having a hard time imagining this.  How is that even possible?

I'm assuming that he means that Brent Spence would be kept in that plan for local traffic while the through lanes went sent through Queensgate.

Oh, okay.  I'm still not sure how that would work, given that 75 would still need to hook up in Covington before heading through Death Hill, but I hope they don't choose to do this.  The Brent Spence is hideous, and I'm looking forward to seeing it gone.

They need to go all-out on this bridge ... I'd like to see something like the Big Mac on steroids, with cables though.

We really need to think far into the future when planning the new bridge.  That's why I like the plans that condense the maze of ramps and add a few extra city blocks to downtown.

 

"We really need to think far into the future when planning the new bridge."

 

How far do you want to think ahead? The need for a new bridge for traffic reasons will pretty much be obsolete in 100 years, if current projections for oil production are accurate.

 

"We really need to think far into the future when planning the new bridge."

 

How far do you want to think ahead? The need for a new bridge for traffic reasons will pretty much be obsolete in 100 years, if current projections for oil production are accurate.

 

What I mean is that we need to consider the potential positive impact that this bridge could have on our city, and not rush to build the cheapest or even easiest solution.  I think it would be a mistake to build a spectacular new bridge right next to a rehabbed BSB, which most people would not consider attractive.

 

Also, last time I looked, there were 3 different options for configuring the ramps from downtown to the bridge... one was virtually what existed now, and the other two added additional city blocks to downtown by condensing the ramps.  Even if the latter options are more expensive now, will we benefit from the added downtown real estate?  We need to figure that out before we let any group rush us into building a duplicate bridge parallel to the existing one.

Also, last time I looked, there were 3 different options for configuring the ramps from downtown to the bridge... one was virtually what existed now, and the other two added additional city blocks to downtown by condensing the ramps.  Even if the latter options are more expensive now, will we benefit from the added downtown real estate?  We need to figure that out before we let any group rush us into building a duplicate bridge parallel to the existing one.

 

Exactly.

 

  I don't think you need to worry about any group rushing to build a bridge. 

Answers on bridge en route

Report on Brent Spence options due soon

By Barry M. Horstman • [email protected] • January 19, 2009

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090119/NEWS01/901190408

 

Sometime next month, a heavy report - inches thick and filled with the kind of statistics, charts, maps and other data that only a traffic engineer could love - will land with a thud on desks in government buildings throughout Greater Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky.

 

No one, not even those who devote their careers to such matters, expects the report to be a breezy, engaging read. But because it deals with the bridge that local drivers love to hate - the Brent Spence Bridge - it's generating the kind of advance buzz normally reserved for books chosen for Oprah's Book Club.

While local drivers perhaps could adapt to that in time, Covington City Commissioner Steve Megerle says the Queensgate configuration inevitably would cause many out-of-town motorists who might otherwise stop in Covington - lured by the city's skyline and MainStrasse, easily seen from the interstates - to drive by due to the absence of a convenient exit.

 

LMAO!  Is this guy serious???  "Lured by the gas stations and fast food options near the exit" would be a FAR more accurate way to describe a an out-of-town motorist's impulse stop in Covington.

"It doesn't make any sense to have to decide to exit in Covington when you're at the Western Hills Viaduct or to have Fort Wright be our first access point on this side of the river," Megerle said.

 

Actually it does, if a central the goal of the project is to speed through traffic.  And simply closing the Covington exits as-is would go a long way toward achieving that goal by keeping people on 71 south from jumping four lanes while on the bridge to exit at 5th St. in Covington. 

^ Good point.  I've always felt that they are just too close to the end of the bridge and the expressway convergence.  You're correct in that you could actually achieve the same affect with the current configuration by just closing the 5th street ramps entirely.  Covington would still have an entrance/exit at 9th street.  This would also alleviate the problem of people getting on 71N at 5th street and crossing the highway to get onto 75N.  I'd love to see these closed for a week, just to find out how much these exits/entrances contribute to the rush hour traffic problems.  Same goes for the RT-8 interchange on 471.  Covington might actually benefit from such a change, as the gas stations and fast food might relocate near the Anchor Grill, Jillians, and new hospital, freeing up the area they're wasting right now for development.

5th street exit from Cincy is scary if your not used to how short and down hill it is.

 

There are still plenty of backups/accidents that aren't Brent Spence's fault. How is that going to be addressed?

Originally that 5th St. northbound ramp formed the bridge's third lane but after they eliminated the safety shoulders it has since formed the forth lane.

 

Also if they separated I-71 and I-75 with a barrier wall on the upper deck, it would keep I-71 people from dashing all the way across AND keep aggressive I-75 people from wanting to shift over to the left lane.  The southbound situation from the 6th St. expressway is also a problem and could have been alleviated by sending that traffic to the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge. 

 

With that weave eliminated through traffic would improve and it would also motivate more people to use the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge.  I-71 south through the Lytle Tunnel used to exit indirectly to the suspension bridge and so was an alternate route to Covington.  A big flaw in the FWW reconstruction was that it didn't improve traffic to the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just thought of this idea.

 

Everyone is saying that if the new BSB is tolled, people will bypass it and use one of the other free bridges.  So why not just toll the existing BSB?  If the predictions are true, some of the local traffic will use other bridges, while many trucks and thru vehicles will decide it is not worth the inconveinance to exit and will pay the toll.  This will solve our problem since, as someone said earlier, the bridge is functionally obsolete but not structurally deficient.  The funds could be used for bridge maintenance, added to a fund to replace the bridge when it becomes necessary down the road, or (gasp) used for mass transit, further reducing the demand placed upon the bridge.

 

Discuss.

^OK, but where do you put the toll booths?  Generally, I've seen tolling stations in places that have long straightaways, where you can see traffic buildups from afar.  For NB 71/75, I can't imagine you'd want to have out-of-towners coming around death hill to find a traffic jam there.  Then again, there's already a jam there half the time, so...

 

 

It seems like you'd need 3 sets to keep some traffic off the bridge, 2 in Ohio for SB 71 and SB 75, an 1 in KY for NB 71/75. 

^OK, but where do you put the toll booths?  Generally, I've seen tolling stations in places that have long straightaways, where you can see traffic buildups from afar.  For NB 71/75, I can't imagine you'd want to have out-of-towners coming around death hill to find a traffic jam there.  Then again, there's already a jam there half the time, so...

 

 

It seems like you'd need 3 sets to keep some traffic off the bridge, 2 in Ohio for SB 71 and SB 75, an 1 in KY for NB 71/75. 

 

I had the chance to ask the chief engineer of this project in person about the toll booths...he said there will be no traditional toll plaza.  It will be similar technology to the red light cameras.

They are installing just such a "red light" system on the elevated express lanes in Tampa, FL for 2010.  Currently you can only get on those lanes with a "Sun Pass" or whatever Florida's thing is called, which is a radio transmitter similar to what New York has.  But from now on they'll just photograph every vehicle and have a computer print out tolls and send them in the mail to wherever the car is registered.

 

And the motivation isn't so much to keep cars moving fast as it is to avoid paying toll booth workers ridiculous wages & benefits. 

 

 

 

 

    I'm sure some clever engineer could decide where to place the toll booths.

 

    It is indisputable that proper tolls would reduce congestion on the Brent Spence bridge. The problem is not where to put the toll booths, but various legalities and politics that prevent tolls.

While local drivers perhaps could adapt to that in time, Covington City Commissioner Steve Megerle says the Queensgate configuration inevitably would cause many out-of-town motorists who might otherwise stop in Covington - lured by the city's skyline and MainStrasse, easily seen from the interstates - to drive by due to the absence of a convenient exit.

 

LMAO! Is this guy serious??? "Lured by the gas stations and fast food options near the exit" would be a FAR more accurate way to describe a an out-of-town motorist's impulse stop in Covington.

 

Actually, the first time I visited Cincy, I came in through the cut-in-the-hill and decided to stop in Covington after I saw that MainStrasse clock tower.  I was actually blown away by Covington before I had a clue what was across the river in Cincy.

^Don't get me wrong.  I'm not trying to knock Covington.  It's just that its skyline near that exit consists of an extended stay hotel and a Radisson.  Everything else is 1-2 stories high.  And you're right about the clocktower being visible, but other than that, there's no way for a passing motorist to know that MainStrasse even exists.  Maybe Megerle is right, though.  I've been wrong before.

^I just can't believe that the new hospital building that's going up right now next to I-75 is soo short.  I would have thought land value there would have dictated a building taller than 4 or 5 stories.  :|

Actually all the homes around it could be bought for under 50k each.

Yeah, value in that part of Covington is pretty low.

Toll idea refuses to die

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090208/NEWS0108/902080337/1055/NEWS

 

Most Greater Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky leaders know where they don't want a replacement for the Brent Spence Bridge built - Queensgate - and also know how they don't want to help pay for it - with a toll.

 

But just as they are having trouble, in the words of Hamilton County Commissioner Todd Portune, "driving a stake through the heart" of the Queensgate site, so, too, are they finding it difficult to dispose of possible tolls as one way to help fund the estimated $3 billion project.