After three months of having the tolls in place, traffic on all three bridges decreased by 27%

 

 

 

"...a highway of diamonds with nobody on it". 

The real question is whether or not the investors on both bridge projects will see positive returns on their investments from the tolls.

 

Yeah, that's a really good question. If traffic volume decreased, that's really not a huge issue in and of itself. It just means that people are thinking more carefully about how they utilize their public resources (the bridges). Maybe more people are combining trips now. Maybe Indiana residents are going out to dinner in Indiana now instead of driving across the bridge, which might lead to more economic development on the Indiana side of the bridge.

 

The more important question is, will the bridge still break even or have a positive ROI with the lower traffic volume? If not, will the states or the feds bail them out, meaning that this whole toll experiment was a failure and taxpayers end up funding the bridges anyway?

 

The more important question is, will the bridge still break even or have a positive ROI with the lower traffic volume? If not, will the states or the feds bail them out, meaning that this whole toll experiment was a failure and taxpayers end up funding the bridges anyway?

 

 

Yes, it's a scam.  The public assumed the risk.  The investors make money if the bridge is successful or if it fails. 

 

 

New Twitter account: BSB 2017 Maintenance

 

"The #bsb2017 maintenance project begins Friday, June 23 at 9pm and will continue for approx. two months."

Nice to see that they are finally putting effort into maintenance of the existing bridge instead of neglecting it and thinking that a big federal handout for its replacement was around the corner.

What work is occurring?

The website is up and running now:

 

http://brentspence2017.org/

 

From the FAQ: The construction team will be replacing concrete surface lanes on the bridge, replacing bridge deck joints, repairing concrete and steel and replacing lighting.

 

It looks like two lanes will be closed for 60 days starting June 23. It will be phased so that every lane eventually gets replaced.

Five months of Brent Spence Bridge construction, closures begin this week

 

Routine maintenance on the Brent Spence Bridge that will require ongoing construction with lane closures will begin this week and could last for up to five months.

 

The Kentucky Transportation Cabinet announced Monday that closures on the bridge over the Ohio River will happen in three phases beginning on June 23. Each phase of construction is expected to take 15 to 20 days, weather permitting, and temporary overnight lane closures could continue for an additional three months.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/06/19/five-months-of-brent-spence-bridge-construction.html

This is wishful thinking, but I have already heard co-workers talking about alternate routes to BSB to get from Cincy to NKY and vice-versa so I'm hoping that as people learn to take alternate routes for the next 5 months (probably more) that some people stick with them long term. There are already many local bridges as well as I-471 and I-275 bridges that could be used instead, so hopefully instead of a ridiculously circuitous "eastern bypass" people just learn to take the existing bypasses now so the BSB traffic numbers are reduced when it does finally re-open.

 

Also, I think new lighting will go a long way to improve the existing experience on BSB, especially on the lower deck which is pretty dark and scary at night and makes it hard to read the signage for people not familiar with the area.

It's going to be hilarious to see how traffic congestion is unchanged by this construction, then see people insist that we need 14 more lanes crossing the river in this spot. 

^ I'm predicting some initial big messes downtown as thousands of people try to figure out, for the first time, how to actually get to all those other bridges over the Ohio. I give it about a week until traffic is flowing smoothly and bridges like the Clay Wade Bailey and Taylor Southgate finally see rush hour traffic that approaches their capacities.

^ I'm predicting some initial big messes downtown as thousands of people try to figure out, for the first time, how to actually get to all those other bridges over the Ohio. I give it about a week until traffic is flowing smoothly and bridges like the Clay Wade Bailey and Taylor Southgate finally see rush hour traffic that approaches their capacities.

 

Plus, I think there really is a legit case to be made for building the Race-Madison bridge.  That bridge was fully funded in the 90s but the money was mysteriously transferred to either Maysville or Portsmouth (I can't remember). 

 

Right now people heading between DT Cincinnati and Covington just get on 75 from Second St. because the ramp is closer than the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge, even though the Brent Spence is situated to the west.  So they travel a longer distance plus have to scoot over to the right lanes on the bridge.  From Covington headed north, it's even easier.  Fifth in Covington draws you to the Brent Spence like a Black Hole even though you pass the Clay Wade ramp en route. 

 

A new bridge connecting Race & Madison would shorten all of TANK's routes by 1-2 miles and provide an obvious crossing point for a streetcar extension.  As I have expressed elsewhere, I think our streetcar system should be expanded south from Central Parkway with tracks on Race and Elm.  Those tracks would lead neatly to a new bridge. 

 

 

What is odd about the closure is that only one direction of the interstate will be restricted at a time. In two of the phases, there will be only 2 lanes southbound but 4 lanes northbound. In the other two phases it will be the opposite. So people might avoid the bridge entire for the day, not realizing that they could use it normally in one direction of their daily commute and just take an alternate route for the other direction that's restricted. This could mean that there will be less traffic than normal in the direction that isn't being restricted.

^ According to the website, it looks like the closures per phase will be of the same lanes on the upper and lower decks. Phase 1 closes the eastern two lanes, phase 2 the center lanes, and phase 3 the western lanes. So at any given time, half the bridge will be out of commission:

 

http://brentspence2017.org/know-your-lane/

 

 

Ah, ok, I saw different graphics and text earlier today that implied something different, although I could've just been reading it wrong.

I give it about a week until traffic is flowing smoothly and bridges like the Clay Wade Bailey and Taylor Southgate finally see rush hour traffic that approaches their capacities.

 

The only problem with this is that the Southgate bridge is also currently down to just one lane, which leads into an unfinished traffic circle and then detours you onto a temporary two way conversion of Monmouth street. So even though it is underutilized in general, since last fall the Southgate bridge has had major back-ups coming from Cincinnati into Newport.

Major traffic headache on the bridge this weekend.  I-71 south at the bridge will be closed for 2 months. You will have to take I-471 to go south.

The posted signs on the highway yesterday said it would take an hour to go from the lateral to the bridge on 75, and traffic looked just as bad on the map over on 71. Cutting through downtown was only a minor help - things were crowded and there were a lot of street closures from Pride, but traffic on the Bailey was at a standstill and the Taylor-Southgate detour is a PITA. Traffic heading NB was backed up to Buttermilk, and the 275 interchange was a mess too. Needless to say I'll have fun watching the traffic cameras the next few months.

 

I doubt KTC will do it, but this would be the perfect time to study the removal of the 4th Street on-ramp in Covington. Those downtown Covington ramps cause so many problems, and maybe if businesses didn't see any appreciable drop in traffic they'd be more open to getting rid of them, which would be a big win in improving the flow over the bridge.

The Covington ramps *are* the problem.  Closing the fifth street ramps would cost about $2,000 in materials, or billions less than what is proposed. 

I assumed traffic would back up all over downtown and Covington during rush hour as people tried to avoid the Brent Spence and take other bridges over the river, but this morning at around 8:00 traffic was completely normal, at least on the Cincinnati side. It looked like there was some backup coming north into the city on 71/75 and 471 but nothing as bad as I was expecting. As of about 8:30AM traffic was moving a bit slow but there was no backup on 75 Southbound, and 71/75 Northbound is only slow from the cut in the hill to the bridge.

I think a lot of people left for work early today and adjusted their routes to prepare for Bridge-ageddon which helped. I don't foresee major problems until a wreck causes issues on the alternate routes. Saturday was terrible because northbound 75/71 was one lane across the bridge, and a wreck closed 3 lanes on 275 near 471 so the alternate routes were slow as well.

^Yeah people don't realize how extravagant Cincinnati's expressway network is by world standards.  There are redundancies for every conceivable route.  There is no end-all-be-all pinch point like the Sepulveda Pass or the Fort Pitt Tunnel.  I have heard the term "freeway ladder" used to describe the way I-71 and I-75 are connected by FWW, the lateral, and Cross County, in addition to two I-275 connections if you count I-471. 

 

I still think a "solution" can be realized at a fraction of the proposed price by creating new local connections.  The Race-Madison bridge that was briefly fully-funded in the mid-90s would have been four lanes, but more interesting aesthetically would be a pair of 2-lane bridges...one connecting Race-Madison and the other connecting Elm and perhaps Russel St. through the IRS property. 

 

Instead of Covington traffic being primarily east-west on 4th and 5th, it would revert to its natural flow with north/south which would inevitably help Madison.  The whole problem with the Clay Wade is that its north connection does not offer easy turns onto I-75 or I-71.  A direct connection across the river to Cincinnati's Second and Third would. 

 

 

 

 

 

The Cincy Chamber did a study on the region's attitudes toward transportation issues and it's full of interesting information. Relevant to this thread, 60% of the say that they are OK with tolls as a way to fund the new bridge. Even 55% of Kentucky/Indiana counties surveyed support tolls. So how long with Northern Kentucky leadership keep insisting that tolls are a non-starter?

Lots of people coming out of the woodwork to emphasize that they don't want tolls on the new bridge. Good for them, all they have to do is avoid driving over the new bridge, and then they won't pay the toll.

 

Some people still can not get it through their heads that "tolling the bridge" doesn't mean there will be toll booths. This dude insists that the bridge should not have tolls, but he'd be okay with an EZ-Pass type of system...

Covington's mayor has a new op-ed talking about the need to massively downsize the new bridge. On the one hand, he continues to insist that tolls are, like, totally unfair to Northern Kentuckians. So it's a lot of the typical anti-toll BS we've been hearing from Northern Kentucky politicians for years. However, this part stuck out to me:

 

The Brent Spence Bridge Corridor Project was conceived more than 20 years ago, and the current plans have languished for more than ten years. The plan was developed when mega-projects were trendy, and the assumption was that the federal government would foot the bill.

 

Eastern Hamilton County neighborhoods fought back against the Eastern Corridor plan and essentially killed it. Could Covington fighting the Brent Spence Bridge kill it too?

Part of the project is supposed to involve reconfiguring the exits near the river.  My question is, couldn't they make an exit that drops you off at the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge?  Obviously include an on ramp as well.  That way you could close the exits on the Covington side and it would help alleviate congestion on the Brent Spence Bridge as well.  I haven't seen anyone here or elsewhere discuss that possibility, so maybe there's something I'm missing. 

 

Another less desirable option could be to drop people off on the Freeman Ave exit.  It might help spur development in that part of the west end.

Ridiculous traffic jams leading to downtown because of the construction on the bridge.

 

Politics aside, the practical improvement in my opinion is to close the I-75 Covington Ramps and improve access from I-75 to the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge on the Ohio side, making the Clay Wade bridge serve as a long ramp to Covingron. If there is to be a toll plaza on I-75, it should be at the top of the hill near Kyles Lane, because there is room there and because it is at the top of the hill.

Well, the maintenance work is almost over. All four northbound lanes are expected to reopen by 5 a.m. tomorrow morning.

If there is to be a toll plaza on I-75, it should be at the top of the hill near Kyles Lane, because there is room there and because it is at the top of the hill.

 

Modern tolling systems do not require a toll plaza. Cameras mounted over the interstate would photograph everyone's license plates as they continue driving at full speed.

Toll Booth Willie's coming out of the booth!!!

I was snarled in an epic backup on the hill on Monday night around 11:30pm when out of nowhere a 1980s Camaro T-top came zooming down the emergency shoulder with a topless woman standing on the passenger seat and waving at stopped traffic.  Nobody seemed to mind that they were cutting in front of 45 minutes of traffic. 

I was snarled in an epic backup on the hill on Monday night around 11:30pm when out of nowhere a 1980s Camaro T-top came zooming down the emergency shoulder with a topless woman standing on the passenger seat and waving at stopped traffic.  Nobody seemed to mind that they were cutting in front of 45 minutes of traffic. 

 

Ahhh, my people... resourceful enough to use boobs to keep other drivers from getting cranky when they do that.

If I'm not mistaken, this year-long study recommended the preferred alternative that was arrived at years ago - a new bridge adjacent the existing bridge, with local and thru traffic separated. The developments here are that the proposed Eastern Bypass (and a few other bypass options like extending 471 to the 71/75 split) was determined to have an insignificant impact on traffic, and the media is now finally presenting the project correctly rather than calling it a "replacement."

 

http://local12.com/news/local/study-recommends-a-new-i-7175-bridge-and-keeping-the-brent-spence-bridge

“The study found a bypass would not postpone the need for a new bridge. The study found it would only reduce bridge traffic by 10 percent, at most.”

 

Yet I bet Kentucky will find a way to fund the Eastern Bypass before funding the new BSB span.

^ Yep. Ky loves highways. There obsession with I-69 and I-66 have led to absurd highway spending on this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2161833,-87.4452167,1687m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en and

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.1282393,-84.6326397,1689m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en and

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0224899,-86.3338898,6766m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

So to correct:

 

1. It is an FHWA mandate to have free flowing ramps on interstate highways. Previously, those two freeways - the Pennyrile Parkway and the Western Kentucky Parkway, were tolled and were paid off years ago. Tolls were removed. Applying the Interstate 69 designation on the Pennyrile, Western Kentucky and Purchase parkways, and a portion of Interstate 24, is cost effective because it utilizes existing freeways instead of new alignments. Besides reworking the junction of those two parkways for free flow movements, other interchanges were reworked (example) because they had no deceleration or acceleration lanes. These served as toll booths (under the underpasses) when the highway was tolled.

 

2. That is the future Interstate 66 bypass of Somerset, which is an extension of the Cumberland Parkway. Like other parkways, the Cumberland was tolled and paid off years ago. With funding from Rep. Rogers, phase one of the Interstate 66 bypass was completed. Funding for design work for phase two has been secured, and alignment proposals and upgrades for KY 80 east to Interstate 75 have long been studied. (Interstate 66 will no longer go west or east from Interstate 65 or 75.) It also wasn't feasible to upgrade the existing KY 80 through Somerset.

 

3. Built to serve the massive Kentucky Transpark development.

 

You gave three examples in rapidly growing areas. The state, absent of its rural areas, is growing.

3.

I69 and I66 are completely wasteful and unneeded highways. Plenty has been written about how they're completely useless, here's just one sample http://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article44401020.html. I remember being at WKU in planning classes back in 2007 listening the professors talk about how useless they are...clearly KY hasn't caught up to what was known 10 years ago. The transpark exit for BG and the possibility of building an exit Elrod RD on the Natcher show wasteful car-centric planning still wins in Ky. The new transpark exit saves maybe 5 or 10 mins from using the Corvette factory exit at the cost of how many millions? BG has at least made some improvements with round-a-bout at University and the bypass and they're doing great things downtown especially along Kentucky St at WKU and along State St just NE of the square.  BUT this is not the thread for this.

 

 

You can't build an industrial park any closer to Bowling Green because it's already been developed - and because of geologic factors (e.g. caves and sinkholes). The exit has clearly demonstrated it's need and cost in the expansion of the industrial park.

 

I bet you also complained about the new (third) Georgetown exit on Interstate 75 to serve the 7,000+ workers for Toyota and its many subsidiaries. It also serves several major new Toyota developments, so, yes, it's justified.

 

Just because it's car centric doesn't mean its wasteful or unneeded. (And boom, that's the tie in to this thread.)

Just because it's car centric doesn't mean its wasteful or unneeded. (And boom, that's the tie in to this thread.)

 

That's a great point and something I think is frequently lost on this forum. Do we have too much of a reliance on the car in this area? Yes. Do we need more mass transit? Yes. Would many roads benefit from diets and other pedestrian-friendly measures? Yes.

 

With all that being said, we still rely on the automobile for the overwhelming majority of trips and if there is a need for access to that (see Toyota), there's no reason why auto-centric infrastructure shouldn't be built.

Even though there is no guarantee that the new Brent Spence Bridge will actually be built — Northern Kentucky continues to oppose tolls as a funding mechanism, and Chabot and Wenstrup have yet to "make it rain" on Southwest Ohio — a number of businesses are closing and buildings are being demolished to make way for the new bridge. The former dunnhumbyUSA building was acquired and demolished last year, and now:

 

Longtime LGBT icon closing its doors to make way for Brent Spence Bridge improvements

 

Ohio Department of Transportation spokesman Brian Cunningham told me that the property was purchased as part of the Brent Spence Bridge right of way.

 

"We have been purchasing some property in anticipation of moving into the design for the Brent Spence Bridge," he said.

^It's so silly that the State is preemptively tearing these buildings down, especially since the final design hasn't been figured out. They don't even know where this (unfunded, unapproved, hypothetical) bridge would go. To keep their options open, the state could buy the properties and keep them occupied, generating income and taxes... but nope. Just tear 'em down! Costs and revenue be damned!

 

Tearing down The Dock implies they also need to acquire the Hilltop Concrete plant immediately to the south.

 

I'm pretty sure Hilltop needs to be located on the river. They receive materials (gravel, sand, etc.) via barge directly from their riverfront. Not sure where along the river they could re-locate, or how expensive such a move would be. I suspect they won't sell their prime riverfront property unless they get a VERY generous offer.

I suspect they won't sell their prime riverfront property unless they get a VERY generous offer.

 

They won't have a choice with eminent domain. They won't be setting the price.

The preferred alternative has the new bridge being built west of the existing bridge:

 

http://www.brentspencebridgecorridor.com/uploads/pdfs/RecommendedAlternativeOhio.pdf

 

I thought this was essentially the selected design, and that it would be developed into a final design if/when funding is available. It looks like The Dock property was needed for a ramp. The rest of the property they need seems to be on the other side of the bridge - Duke, Longworth Hall, and parts of UPS and another Duke property north of 3rd Street. I imagine acquiring the property and demolishing buildings makes the project seem more "shovel ready."

 

There's a bunch of land next to the river near the Waldvogel Viaduct for the transloading facility that was NIMBY'd out of existence.  I don't know if a concrete (and asphalt) plant is more or less objectionable, but it's smaller and could be kept more towards Mill Creek.  Cincy Bulk Terminals, which takes up most if not all of the riverbank between Duke's Mehring Way substation and Mill Creek, seems to have a fair bit of underutilized land near the Southern railroad bridge too. 

Yeah, the link posted above appears to be the option that ODOT is going with. It's just a shame that they'd doing all this demolition without having funding in place.

 

The Gold Star Chili at Dalton & Bank closed a few months ago, and that must also have been an ODOT acquisition as well.

 

Don't forget that the eastern 1/3 of Longworth Hall is going to be demolished for this project.

Don't forget that the eastern 1/3 of Longworth Hall is going to be demolished for this project.

 

That bugs me the most...

Not to mention the roughly 1/4 of it that was demolished for the current bridge.

Yea its totally ludicrous to be tearing down buildings for somethingthat might never be built and has zero finding to be built.  BTW what happened to Trump's promise to get it built if he was elected? Again can't believe the double standard because if this was all for a light rail bridge that was fully funded people would be fighting it tooth and nail no matter what.

Yea its totally ludicrous to be tearing down buildings for somethingthat might never be built and has zero finding to be built.

 

That's how the DOT ensures the minimal amount of opposition, by eliminating as many businesses and residents that are in the way who might pose a problem, and also by increasing the amount of sunk costs in the project so they can say "we have to finish it now."