That's how the DOT ensures the minimal amount of opposition, by eliminating as many businesses and residents that are in the way who might pose a problem, and also by increasing the amount of sunk costs in the project so they can say "we have to finish it now." 

 

Yet this building was built happily nestled among the ramps and highway. Is this a State facility? FYI in the back they caught a moment in time as the old Dunhumby building was just starting demo.  https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cincinnati,+OH/@39.0986225,-84.5235428,76a,35y,87.82h,71.5t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x884051b1de3821f9:0x69fb7e8be4c09317!8m2!3d39.1031182!4d-84.5120196  Are there any other possible demos due to this? Things like the concrete plant or the bengals practice field are safe I guess, but the Job Corp building next to Union Terminal is right on the highway almost as close as the goldstar was on Dalton/Spring Grove.

 

Yet this building was built happily nestled among the ramps and highway. Is this a State facility? FYI in the back they caught a moment in time as the old Dunhumby building was just starting demo.  https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cincinnati,+OH/@39.0986225,-84.5235428,76a,35y,87.82h,71.5t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x884051b1de3821f9:0x69fb7e8be4c09317!8m2!3d39.1031182!4d-84.5120196  Are there any other possible demos due to this? Things like the concrete plant or the bengals practice field are safe I guess, but the Job Corp building next to Union Terminal is right on the highway almost as close as the goldstar was on Dalton/Spring Grove.

 

That building was apparently the Artimis Control Center, which was the organization that ran all of the traffic cameras and changeable message signs on Greater Cincinnati highways. I have no idea whether the building is still in use, since Artimis' functions have been taken over by ODOT.

^^ Thanks, i knew it was somewhat highway related but wasn't sure exactly why it was there. Looking at the alignment needed to go where the 1/3 end of Longworth hall is i wonder if the Cincinnati Bell and UPS buildings are doomed along with the Fox19 Building. Hopefully not especially since the TV station is in a rare survivor building of the Queensgate purge.

 

^^ Thanks, i knew it was somewhat highway related but wasn't sure exactly why it was there. Looking at the alignment needed to go where the 1/3 end of Longworth hall is i wonder if the Cincinnati Bell and UPS buildings are doomed along with the Fox19 Building. Hopefully not especially since the TV station is in a rare survivor building of the Queensgate purge.

 

Dear god I hope the job corps and old school/ch 19 are spared. It's stupid we can't design something that spares longworth. 

New Ohio River bridge in eastern Ohio will cost $131 million:

http://www.wtrf.com/community/construction-on-wellsburg-bridge-to-start-in-july/1085830179

 

Looks like a 3-lane bridge with a walkway.  Not tough to imagine a new bridge at the Anderson Ferry costing about this much, but approach roads would have to be improved, which might cost as much. 

 

In early 2000s traffic studies, it was estimated that an Anderson Ferry bridge would divert about 8-9% of the traffic that currently uses the Brent Spence.  Much of that, no doubt, would be off-peak traffic when the ferry doesn't run, so don't expect a big impact on the rush hour conditions of the Brent Spence. 

 

How much more would it cost if a (light) rail track or two were added to the bridge?

How much more would it cost if a (light) rail track or two were added to the bridge?

 

I don't know.  In the 90s they studied putting light rail on the Taylor-Southgate Bridge, which was at the time just 5~ years old.  I never saw a cost estimate for that.  The bridge being built in eastern Ohio looks like it has a deck that is about 40 feet wide.  A bridge with two tracks in the middle and a vehicular lane along either edge would need to be a hair wider, maybe 45 feet.  If they wanted to do 2 tracks + 4 lanes then it would need to be about 60 feet wide.  That's a lot more concrete and steel. 

 

 

 

 

 

The official website for this project still estimates the cost of the new bridge at $2.6 billion, but that estimate is probably at least 5 years old. With rising construction costs, including the rising cost of steel, does anyone know how much it would cost if built today?

Based on how much labor and materials have risen plus general inflation plus the fact that estimates are nearly always low I wouldn't be surprised if it was closer to $4bn at this point.

 

Which I'm fine with. The longer they delay, the less feasible it becomes and the bigger the uphill battle and therefore the less likely that much money is blown on a wildly overdesigned project.

A very quick back-of-the-napkin estimate on my part would be an increase of about $100 million, based on ODOT's construction cost indices (with the caveat that the data only goes back to 2012 and I'm not sure if ODOT has any predictive indices and calculated their values based on completing the project in year 202X). Structural steel prices have just started passing where they were in 2013, with the lowest prices back in 2016. Of course, it doesn't show any signs right now of getting any cheaper in the near future, based on current trends. By the time they break ground, I could see the estimated cost being at least $3b if not higher.

With Elon Musk potentially on the verge of inventing some new technology to drastically reduce the cost of tunnel boring, perhaps we should pump the brakes on the new BSB and reconsider the idea of building a tunnel.

 

^Yeah except that would be a real tunnel, with proper lighting (not a string of LED lights from Dollar General), ventilation, emergency facilities, etc., plus a bore large enough to accommodate a 16' clearance for trucks. 

 

Doing a single bore like the Bertha tunnel in Seattle would be difficult because of the river and because the entire interstate on each end would have to be reoriented to have lanes funnel on two decks into the tunnel.  that could mean 1+ mile of reconstruction to either end.  Yes, they are already planning to do that, but it could be quite dramatic. 

 

So either the bridge or a tunnel like what is shown above would  cost $2+ billion.  Meanwhile, a new bridge connecting Race/Madison would cost - at most - $250 million, as would a high-level bridge at the Anderson Ferry.  In fact I think the real answer for the west side is a pair of new bridges, one at Anderson Ferry and a similar one at Neeb Rd. directly to the airport.  That way traffic would sort itself on the west side in the neighborhoods depending on the NKY destination and not all funned onto Anderson Ferry Rd., which shouldn't be widened. 

It is absolutely astonishing to me why a West side connection to the airport hasn't happened by now.    I would love to know the shear number of cars/persons who live on the westside and have to travel the BSB downtown to get to their job in NKY or visa versa.   How many thousands of cars could we take off that bridge?    I would be one.  -1

Edited January 14, 20196 yr by oakiehigh

36 minutes ago, oakiehigh said:

It is absolutely astonishing to me why a West side connection to the airport hasn't happened by now.    I would love to know the shear number of cars/persons who live on the westside and have to travel the BSB downtown to get to their job in NKY or visa versa.   How many thousands of cars could we take off that bridge?    I would be one.  -1

 

The stat when it was studied in the early 2000s was 5-10,000.  

 

The Jeremiah Morrow replacement bridge project cost only $88 million, which illustrates how preposterous the Brent Spence mega project is as well as the affordability of building something similar to the Jeremiah Morrow bridge on the west side.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Morrow_Bridge

 

Little-known fact: Glenway Crossing shopping center is significantly closer to I-275 in Kentucky then it is to I-275 in Ohio.  A new bridge connecting Anderson Ferry Rd. to I-275 at Mineola would divert a lot of traffic from I-75 in Cincinnati and the Brent Spence Bridge. 

 

 

 

I believe Mark Mallory proposed a West Side bridge for local traffic in his final State of the City address. I don't believe any actual progress has happened with that idea since then.

^One has been proposed for 50+ years.  The I-275 routing to Indiana created the ridiculous situation in which a low-tech ferry maintains a viable business inside the beltway of a major U.S. city. 

Dewine hinting that he and Bevin will do something:

https://www.wcpo.com/news/state/state-ohio/new-ohio-governor-sworn-in-at-home-before-public-inauguration

 

Are we going to get to vote on this? 

What about a bridge from Ludlow? As I understand it, 75 was originally supposed to go through Ludlow, until Covington pulled some strings to change the alignment. Moving the 75 crossing to the west would give more room to accommodate the US-50/Fort Washington connections and dramatically increase the size of downtown.

 

I'm imagining a rerouted 75 following the rail line that goes from the Fort Mitchel County Club to Ludlow. On the Ohio side it would follow Freeman Ave until meeting its current alignment at Union Terminal. That would be a multi-billion dollar bridge/tunnel project worth pursuing. 

^Not going to happen, because the bridge replacement isn't about increasing capacity.  It's about intentionally diminishing interstate highway access to the Covington riverfront so that it can't compete with DT Cincinnati for Class A office tenants. 

 

As long as a new BSB proposal maintains access to 5th St. in Covington, the project won't happen.  If access to Covington can be permanently pushed southward to 12th, then the project will happen, because that's the whole point. 

 

The Fort Washington Way rebuild intentionally cut-off the direct access to the suspension bridge and thereby the direct access it provided to the Rivercenter towers, Covington convention center, etc.  A Race-Madison bridge will never happen, even though it makes a ton of sense, because it restores that near-direct access from I-71 and I-75 to the heart of Covington.  Same reason why cross-river rail via a bridge or tunnel will never happen. 

The Ohio Turnpike bond fund is exhausted and so ODOT cannot fund new projects without tax hike:

https://www.dispatch.com/news/20190113/money-for-major-ohio-road-projects-is-gone-gas-tax-hike-proposed

 

It's almost as if Kasich sold the exact sum that would last through the last year of his second term, and not a day longer, preventing a possible Democrat successor from passing out candy like he did. 

The West Side Bridge is a no-brainer to help re-develop the West Side by direct access to jobs at the airport area. If only we had a prominent West Sider at the top of the administration who fights for our neighborhoods...

33 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

^Not going to happen, because the bridge replacement isn't about increasing capacity.  It's about intentionally diminishing interstate highway access to the Covington riverfront so that it can't compete with DT Cincinnati for Class A office tenants. 

 

As long as a new BSB proposal maintains access to 5th St. in Covington, the project won't happen.  If access to Covington can be permanently pushed southward to 12th, then the project will happen, because that's the whole point. 

 

The Fort Washington Way rebuild intentionally cut-off the direct access to the suspension bridge and thereby the direct access it provided to the Rivercenter towers, Covington convention center, etc.  A Race-Madison bridge will never happen, even though it makes a ton of sense, because it restores that near-direct access from I-71 and I-75 to the heart of Covington.  Same reason why cross-river rail via a bridge or tunnel will never happen. 

 

Let me start by saying I have immense respect for your opinions on a number of topics, but you're way too conspiratorial. There is no big conspiracy to keep people from accessing Covington. Covington access isn't even on the minds of folks planning the bridge replacement. It's ALL about capacity. The Fort Washington Way access consolidation was about safety, first and foremost. It had nothing to do with keeping people from crossing the suspension bridge. I know these for a fact, so you can put aside these conspiracy theories. They're not helpful or accurate. 

 

In a perfect world, Fort Washington Way would've been removed completely and the BSB replacement would be moved farther west. Funny enough, in that scenario, Covington access would take a huge hit. So if decision-makers really had that goal they'd be pursuing these ideas. But they're not. They're all about status quo and old ideas. Nothing radical, nothing that rocks the boat. 

^Everything that has happened since the first office towers appeared in Covington in the early 1990s has worked to erode access to those towers.  A Race-Madison bridge was completely funded by Ohio & Kentucky before the money suddenly and without explanation was pulled by Ohio and diverted to the bridge that ended up being built in Maysville. 

 

We have never seen any agitation for a Race-Madison bridge in the ensuing 20 years, despite the deterioration of the Roebling Bridge.  TANK was kicked off the bridge around 2006 which put their NKY transit center in a bad spot and forced every TANK route to add 2 full miles and 10 stop lights to every single run.  The Southbank Shuttle had to sell its old buses and buy the lightweight octagon-shaped things it has now so that it can use the suspension bridge. 

 

Access to Covington has never been worse since the Brent Spence opened in 1963, yet around 2010 we saw legit proposals to completely remove access to Covington at 5th St.

 

If that comes to pass, Covington north of 12th will be as isolated from DT Cincinnati as-is the Ovation site, which is why office has never been proposed for Ovation. 

 

Maybe we haven't seen any agitation for a Race-Madison bridge because the demand simply isn't there. There are already 3 bridges connecting Cincinnati to Covington (one being the Roebling, and another being the Brent Spence).

15 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Maybe we haven't seen any agitation for a Race-Madison bridge because the demand simply isn't there. There are already 3 bridges connecting Cincinnati to Covington (one being the Roebling, and another being the Brent Spence).

 

Bingo. Hit the nail on the head. Volumes on the existing local bridges are low. No traffic engineer would recommend another crossing.

24 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

^Everything that has happened since the first office towers appeared in Covington in the early 1990s has worked to erode access to those towers.  A Race-Madison bridge was completely funded by Ohio & Kentucky before the money suddenly and without explanation was pulled by Ohio and diverted to the bridge that ended up being built in Maysville. 

 

 

The prioritization of a Maysville bridge has more to do with rural interests controlling both Kentucky and Ohio than anything else. There was no conspiracy. Simply pork.

 

Quote

If that comes to pass, Covington north of 12th will be as isolated from DT Cincinnati as-is the Ovation site, which is why office has never been proposed for Ovation. 

 

How is the Ovation site isolated from DT Cincy? It is literally at the base of an existing bridge.

 

Any time you think there is a conspiracy, examine the facts closely. The real explanation is usually misplaced priorities or outright incompetence. The folks that run Ohio are very good at both. 

There's no connection issues between downtown Cincinnati and downtown Covington (or Newport).  Direct highway access to downtown Covington is perhaps another factor, but unless evidence is provided to the contrary, the simplification of ramps and exits that came with Ft. Washington Way and the push to eliminate the 5th Street/KY-8 exit in Covington is little more than typical traffic engineering practice of eliminating closely-spaced exits, partial interchanges, incomplete movements, weaving, and confusing lane adds/drops.  You could just as easily make the argument that there's a conspiracy to hobble Jack Casino because there's no direct way to get there from I-75 northbound (you either have to get off at 2nd Street by Paul Brown Stadium and then traverse the entirety of downtown, or go all the way up to the I-71 and Reading/Florence exit and turn around).  It's simply a matter of difficult terrain, tight geometries, and too much other stuff going on to make yet another ramp/exit feasible. 

And Covington north of 12th could not be more connected to downtown.  The suspension bridge connects them directly and is very easy to use.  It takes maybe 5 minutes from getting off 71 at 3rd St until you're on the bridge driving across to Covington.  Then you also have the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge and the Brent Spence.  There is absolutely no need for a Race to Madison bridge to be built when there are already three bridges anyone can use.  

Covington would be better off allowing the Fifth Street ramp to be removed and having all highway access via 12th Street. Both Forth and Fifth streets could be converted back to two-way and could become livable streets instead of the car sewers that they are today. Over time, the fast food drive-thrus and gas stations in that area can be replaced by new mixed-used structures, similar to what is being built on the parking lots next to Braxton and near Mainstrasse. (@Gordon Bombay recently pointed out that there are two completely separate Speedway gas stations on the same block in that area, with one serving eastbound traffic on Fifth and the other serving westbound traffic on Fourth.) Basically, let all of Covington north of of 12th redevelop in a pedestrian-, bike-, and transit-oriented way.

23 minutes ago, jjakucyk said:

There's no connection issues between downtown Cincinnati and downtown Covington (or Newport).  Direct highway access to downtown Covington is perhaps another factor, but unless evidence is provided to the contrary, the simplification of ramps and exits that came with Ft. Washington Way and the push to eliminate the 5th Street/KY-8 exit in Covington is little more than typical traffic engineering practice of eliminating closely-spaced exits, partial interchanges, incomplete movements, weaving, and confusing lane adds/drops.  You could just as easily make the argument that there's a conspiracy to hobble Jack Casino because there's no direct way to get there from I-75 northbound (you either have to get off at 2nd Street by Paul Brown Stadium and then traverse the entirety of downtown, or go all the way up to the I-71 and Reading/Florence exit and turn around).  It's simply a matter of difficult terrain, tight geometries, and too much other stuff going on to make yet another ramp/exit feasible. 

 

Exactly. And along those lines, Downtown Cincinnati has way too many access points to the interstates. Many of our streets act as de facto ramps. We might have more connections to interstates per square mile than any other downtown in the country and what good has it done for us? If we were smart we'd get rid of Fort Washington Way completely. I-71 can be routed onto existing I-471 and I-275 to meet back up with I-75 in Florence. You don't need 7th, 5th, and 2nd Street exits on I-75 southbound. That's a clusterf**k. The Gilbert Avenue viaduct can be eliminated. On I-471/71 North you don't need Central Parkway, 6th, and 3rd Street exits. Eliminating all this useless infrastructure would return so much land to downtown to be developed and put to good use. It would also make us all so much safer. 

15 minutes ago, taestell said:

 (@Gordon Bombay recently pointed out that there are two completely separate Speedway gas stations on the same block in that area, with one serving eastbound traffic on Fifth and the other serving westbound traffic on Fourth.)

 

This is all I have talked about on Twitter and Reddit the past two days. 

27 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

Exactly. And along those lines, Downtown Cincinnati has way too many access points to the interstates. Many of our streets act as de facto ramps. We might have more connections to interstates per square mile than any other downtown in the country and what good has it done for us? If we were smart we'd get rid of Fort Washington Way completely. I-71 can be routed onto existing I-471 and I-275 to meet back up with I-75 in Florence. You don't need 7th, 5th, and 2nd Street exits on I-75 southbound. That's a clusterf**k. The Gilbert Avenue viaduct can be eliminated. On I-471/71 North you don't need Central Parkway, 6th, and 3rd Street exits. Eliminating all this useless infrastructure would return so much land to downtown to be developed and put to good use. It would also make us all so much safer. 

 

I think a good first step would be to eliminate the ramp from Fourth Street to I-75 North. That would allow Fourth Street to be converted back to two-way since it would no longer connect to any highway ramps at either end. The stub ramp on Third Street could be activated so access to I-75 North would be maintained. Actually, the previous Cincinnati DOTE director that told me this was something he wanted to do. Unfortunately, in the latest plans for the BSB, this doesn't happen; the Fourth Street ramp remains and the Third Street stub is not used.

The thing to be careful about when eliminating ramps is what the DOT does to the ones that remain.  I can see closing 5th Street leading to pressure to widen Pike and finish the MLK disaster. On the Ohio side, ODOT went crazy with that MLK interchange where we now have 10-lane surface streets for really no good reason.  Hopple is the classic example, they just had to inject so much more capacity to compensate for the loss of the Bates and Central Parkway ramps, I guess.  

3 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

And Covington north of 12th could not be more connected to downtown.  The suspension bridge connects them directly and is very easy to use.  It takes maybe 5 minutes from getting off 71 at 3rd St until you're on the bridge driving across to Covington.  Then you also have the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge and the Brent Spence.  There is absolutely no need for a Race to Madison bridge to be built when there are already three bridges anyone can use.  

 

TANK can't use the bridge.  Trucks can't use the bridge.  The streetcar can't use the bridge.  The bridge is periodically closed for exotic repairs such as the recent DUI crash that shut it down for 2-3 weeks.   

 

The benefits of a new bridge are many:

• direct TANK service from the NKY transit center to DT Cincinnati
• direct connection for delivery trucks 
• direct traffic flow to Covington's traditional downtown strip 
• revert Greenup and Scott to 2-way
• reestablish Court St. connection and sell land where Scott and Greenup ramps now sit for development
• opportunity to create transit lanes on bridge for TANK and streetcars

 

Also, the price of new 2-lane bridges over the Ohio River are amazingly low.  Like, way, way under $100 million, or even less than $50 million.  The U.S. Grant Bridge in Portsmouth only cost $26 million.  We could throw up 3 or 4 new 2-lane bridges for less than 1/10th the cost of the Brent Spence Bridge. 

 

One at Race/Madison, one between KY 8 and Gest St., one near the Anderson Ferry, one between Bellevue, KY and Columbia Parkway. 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Let me start by saying I have immense respect for your opinions on a number of topics, but you're way too conspiratorial. There is no big conspiracy to keep people from accessing Covington. Covington access isn't even on the minds of folks planning the bridge replacement. It's ALL about capacity. The Fort Washington Way access consolidation was about safety, first and foremost. It had nothing to do with keeping people from crossing the suspension bridge. I know these for a fact, so you can put aside these conspiracy theories. They're not helpful or accurate. 

 

In a perfect world, Fort Washington Way would've been removed completely and the BSB replacement would be moved farther west. Funny enough, in that scenario, Covington access would take a huge hit. So if decision-makers really had that goal they'd be pursuing these ideas. But they're not. They're all about status quo and old ideas. Nothing radical, nothing that rocks the boat. 

 

 

I have the sense that the old-money Cincinnati decision-makers wield little power regrading these types of decisions made at the state and federal level. Columbus ones have a little more state-wise, but even then Wexner had to foot a large portion of the bill for the Easton interchange himself. Locally though, the Cincinnati aristocracy does have a large shadowy influence on what goes on with city money. Now in Kentucky and West Virginia...

4 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

 

 

I have the sense that the old-money Cincinnati decision-makers wield little power regrading these types of decisions made at the state and federal level.

 

They have all of the power, except when an outlier somehow gets in power locally, like Mallory in 2005 or the 2011 wave that briefly brought a progressive majority to Cincinnati city council thanks to the Senate Bill 5 tea party debacle.  But those are brief bends and they always win in the end, like in 1984.  Of course Cranley is a monster, but he's their monster. 

 

The 2011 TRAC meeting was a spectacular display of blue blood power.  The Cincinnati Streetcar phase 1b funding was sent 200 miles north to a pair of freight rail grade separation projects that weren't anywhere on the ODOT list prior to Kasich.  Poof, spent.  On no-name areas of the state, not the #2 employment area of its largest metropolitan area.   The hope was that the streetcar phase 1a would disappear, but it actually got built, despite Cranley's reckless efforts to stop it.  

 

Here is an idea I had a long time ago -- a 2-level bridge at Race-Madison.  The lower level would be for general traffic.  The upper level would be for TANK and the streetcar.  The buses and streetcar would approach the bridge on a mostly-level viaduct from 4th St. and would cross above Race St. between 3rd and the bridge on a viaduct. 

 

On the Covington side, a viaduct would carry TANK buses to the second level of the big Kenton County parking garage, where they would travel down a ramp to the existing transit center on the first level.  Streetcars would continue on a viaduct that continues south to 5th St., then west to the C&O tracks, where it turns south and parallels the freight tracks in a manner similar to that studied by OKI in 1998.  Elevated stations at the transit center, then somewhere south of the IRS property. 

 

In a way, this recreates the grade separation that existed when Dixie Terminal was in operation, but moves the terminal to the south side of the river.  I wish I was a big-time engineer because I'd know if a 2-level bridge of this kind is cheaper to build that a wider 1-level bridge or even two side-by-side bridges. 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

In a way, this recreates the grade separation that existed when Dixie Terminal was in operation, but moves the terminal to the south side of the river.  I wish I was a big-time engineer because I'd know if a 2-level bridge of this kind is cheaper to build that a wider 1-level bridge or even two side-by-side bridges. 

 

 

What would the point of bus separation be? Based on the Clay Wade Bailey, the Suspension Bridge, and the Taylor-Southgate bridge volumes there is no way that any new bridge would warrant the extra expense of bus separation. Volumes will be so low that traffic will be free-flow for at least 23 hours of the day and probably all 24. There is no need for a new bridge, but there is especially no need for a new double decker bridge. 

While bus separation may be a stretch, planning any new bridge spans in the region without light rail/streetcar separation would be extremely short sighted.

12 minutes ago, oakiehigh said:

While bus separation may be a stretch, planning any new bridge spans in the region without light rail/streetcar separation would be extremely short sighted.

 

The Taylor-Southgate and Clay Wade Bailey bridges each have excess capacity. You can just run a grade separated light rail line right down the middle of both of them. No need for a new bridge. 

^ That's not what grade-separated means.

1 hour ago, jjakucyk said:

^ That's not what grade-separated means.

 

Technically correct. I meant dedicated lanes, but I think you knew that. The point is that existing bridges can be used for light rail separated from automobile traffic. 

3 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

The Taylor-Southgate and Clay Wade Bailey bridges each have excess capacity. You can just run a grade separated light rail line right down the middle of both of them. No need for a new bridge. 

 

No, neither of those bridges are anything close to direct and each have technical problems.   

 

Running tracks down Broadway to get to Newport would be a mistake -- plus at-grade tracks at the base of the Taylor-Southgate bridge could not work because of a grade crossing with future freight/commuter rail tracks for the Transit Center.  The uprights across the north side of the Taylor-Southgate preclude construction of a ramp from the center lanes carrying tracks up and over Fort Washington Way.  The T-S bridge was designed and built well before FWW as it exists was conceived or built.  The long box girder near the bridge was an expensive add-on to the project that enabled a direct 4-way intersection with Broadway at Pete Rose Way. 

 

Clay Wade Baily is only wide enough for one protected lane for transit.  Creating a single-track segment in the heart of a network is a big mistake.  In 1998 a new double track light rail bridge was conceived just east of the Clay Wade Baily. 

 

As has been already illustrated, a modest bridge over the Ohio River is not very expensive.  If expense isn't keeping one from being built, what is? 

 

 

 

I just got a different tunnel idea.  Have I-71/75 separate in Covington and have I-75 remain on the bridge but I-71 moved to a tunnel.  This would enable a simplification of the current interchange in Cincinnati. 

 

The following could happen:

• Fort Washington Way trench continues 1-2 blocks west before center lanes travel into a 2x2 lane tunnel. 
• Central Ave. and Plum St. each made to travel OVER Ft. Washington Way
• FWW to I-75N connection can travel below a restored 4th and 5th St.
• I-75S to FWW connection similarly moves below restored 4th and 5th St.
• Possible restoration of John St. between 3rd St. and Court St. 
• convention center expanded west to John St.

 

The tunnel would be a 2x2 lane tunnel similar to the Bertha tunnel that will soon open in Seattle.  It would be about 7,000 feet long, so a bit shorter than that tunnel, if the south portals are just north of 12th St. in Covington.

 

This situation would enable the I-75 5th St. ramps to remain as they are.  2 lanes would divert around 12th St. to travel to Fort Washington Way, and an on ramp from 12th St. would merge with these lanes. 

 

I-71 south would similarly have 2 thru lanes travel south under the river and continue to the hill, but 5th St. would be ignored and a ramp would exit at 12th. 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.rcnky.com/articles/2019/05/09/4th-street-entrance-ramp-close-permanently-texas-turnaround-coming

 

4th street ramp to close PERMANENTLY at the Brent Spence Bridge! Hopefully this allows the 12th Street on-ramp to become the 4th lane of traffic that continues all the way through to the bridge, eliminating both that merge and  the 4th street merge in one fell swoop. 

 

In terms of the "Texas turnaround", that condition already exists so most of this should just be spent on signage, demo of the ramp, and (hopefully) re-striping of I-75 from 12th street to the bridge.  

 

 

^"What that does is, it just improves safety up on I-75," said City of Covington public works director and assistant engineer Rick Davis.

 

 

Well, what they're going to have to do is go through and close the ramp. That forces you to also go in and tear down what remains of it. What happens when we do that is we then have to remove that asphalt material.

23 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

In terms of the "Texas turnaround", that condition already exists so most of this should just be spent on signage, demo of the ramp, and (hopefully) re-striping of I-75 from 12th street to the bridge.   

 

I don't think they could get the 4th lane from 12th Street to the bridge with restriping alone - it looks to be too narrow (unless they're willing to keep the BSB lane width all the way back to the spot the lane currently ends):

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0839244,-84.5225584,3a,75y,15.19h,89.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxeplmjBPJd6oL-AhcrNt-A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Going from 4 lanes, down to 3 for a few hundred feet, and back to 4 lanes at the bridge won't make a whole lot of sense though. This will improve safety some but won't have a huge impact on congestion.

Does anyone know what is being done on the Ohio side of the bridge between the current span and the old CG&E plant?    They have dug a huge pit and their seems to be a lot of activity going on.

 

Does this have to do with the bridge?

Is it soil remediation similar to what they did on the lot north of this a few years back?

I'm having a bit of a hard time picturing this without a graphic. If I'm understanding correctly, the traffic on Fourth Street would need to head south on the existing collector/distributor road on the west side of I-75, turn left at Pike, and turn left onto I-75 N? So it is quite a bit of a detour from the direct ramp access that exists today.

 

The Fourth/Fifth street ramps were going to be eliminated as part of the new BSB project anyway, but I'm very surprised that they're going ahead and doing this now. Especially considering that many business owners in Covington opposed the new BSB plan specifically because of the elimination of the Fourth/Fifth street ramps. But I guess OKI can really do whatever they want and can choose to simply ignore whatever "community engagement" feedback they received.

16 minutes ago, taestell said:

I'm having a bit of a hard time picturing this without a graphic. If I'm understanding correctly, the traffic on Fourth Street would need to head south on the existing collector/distributor road on the west side of I-75, turn left at Pike, and turn left onto I-75 N? So it is quite a bit of a detour from the direct ramp access that exists today.

 

You're basically correct. But a slip ramp will be installed that will let these cars go through the Pike Street intersection without stopping at either of the stop lights. That's the "Texas turnaround" aspect. 

 

Quote

But I guess OKI can really do whatever they want and can choose to simply ignore whatever "community engagement" feedback they received.

 

That's not how it works. OKI isn't doing the project. They only approve federal funding. KYTC is doing the project, in conjunction with the City of Covington. Both of those organizations had public meetings on the issue. OKI is only involved because they are asking for CMAQ (Congestion Management and Air Quality) funding and OKI has to approve that and add the project to the TIP. Seeing as this will help with congestion in Covington and on I-75 it would be really weird for OKI to deny it the CMAQ funding. 

Any chance this improves the daily backup that extends back to Buttermilk and sometimes Erlanger?