September 9, 200717 yr N.Ky. may ante up for bridges Replacing Brent Spence could require local funds BY PATRICK CROWLEY | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER September 9, 2007 COVINGTON - Local and state governments have long relied on the federal government to pay for major highway projects such as the planned replacement of the Interstate 71/75 Brent Spence Bridge. Now, the feds want it the other way. Federal transportation officials and members of Kentucky's Congressional delegation have made it clear that the government does not have the money to replace not just the antiquated Brent Spence - which carries a price tag of as much as $3 billion - but two bridges in Louisville that could cost as much as $4 billion.
September 9, 200717 yr The Highway Account of the Highway Trust Fund will go bankrupt by 2009, and will most likely rely on appropriations by Congress after that unless other sources of revenue are generated. As it stands, many states have not raised gasoline taxes in years, and will most likely not due to strong political and citizen opposition. Even raising the very notion could jeopardize your political future, as people cannot see the forest for trees, per se. The Ohio River Bridges Project in Louisville calls for the construction of an Interstate 265 bridge and tunnel, which would give the region it's first true bypass, and the construction of a second Kennedy Bridge (Interstate 65). The current six-lane span is absurdly overburdened and has a higher-than-normal accident rate. The project also calls for the reconstruction of the Spaghetti Junction, where Interstates 64, 65 and 71 meet. But due to a lack of funds, and the fact that it will sap 19% of Kentucky's state funding for a decade, there is talk by a few Representatives of tolling. I've made my plans clear on that I think here, and how it could tie into the 8664 plan to generate even more revenue, but since 8664 is all but dead, tolling would still be a great option. As for the Brent Spence Bridge, tolling is _not_ an option. I would not fathom placing a toll booth on the Ohio side, or at the bottom of the grade in Kentucky. And _current_ congestion would prohibit even the mention of a toll booth, and because the interstate highway was paid for in part by federal funding, which the state would need to pay back.
September 9, 200717 yr Not to rehash an old topic, but the enforcement of a truck ban would not be impossible...you could require a manifest with a local address, and enforce it secondarily with large fines and such. Other through-truck bans have used that approach. However, I've mostly heard of local or state routes having through-truck bans - roads like Columbia Parkway and such. I'm sure you're right when you say banning through-trucks on a federally funded interstate would be legally problematic at best...
September 9, 200717 yr Not to rehash an old topic, but the enforcement of a truck ban would not be impossible...you could require a manifest with a local address, and enforce it secondarily with large fines and such. Other through-truck bans have used that approach. However, I've mostly heard of local or state routes having through-truck bans - roads like Columbia Parkway and such. I'm sure you're right when you say banning through-trucks on a federally funded interstate would be legally problematic at best... Let it go man, let it go...
September 10, 200717 yr Not to rehash an old topic, but the enforcement of a truck ban would not be impossible...you could require a manifest with a local address, and enforce it secondarily with large fines and such. Other through-truck bans have used that approach. I haven't heard or read of any such ban using a local address manifest. The only bans that I have seen implemented involve roadways with severe deficiencies, such as low bridge clearances, lack of shoulders (Tactonic Parkway in NY, for instance), and so forth. I can ask at MTR, but I am not aware of this happening.
September 16, 200717 yr Bridge crash rate high Covington mayor wants to press for rush-hour truck ban BY MIKE RUTLEDGE | [email protected] COVINGTON - The Brent Spence Bridge had one of the highest crash rates of the nation's "functionally deficient" bridges between 1995 and 2003, according to U.S. Department of Transportation data. And traffic continues to increase. The Brent Spence from 1995 to 2003 averaged 22.8 wrecks per lane-mile each year. The list was led by the George Washington Bridge, with 225.5, and three other New York City bridges. The three were between 49.4 and 67.5. http://news.nky.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20070915/NEWS0103/709150378
October 12, 200717 yr City seeks to divert trucks Rigs would be off Brent Spence in rush hour BY CINDY SCHROEDER | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER October 11, 2007 COVINGTON - The City Commission has taken the lead in the push to ban large trucks from the Brent Spence/Interstate 71/75 Bridge during rush hours. Mayor Butch Callery has said it could be a decade or more before the bridge that has one of the highest crash rates of the nation's "functionally deficient" bridges between 1995 and 2003 is replaced. In the meantime, he says 18-wheelers should be kept off it during morning and afternoon commute times to reduce crashes and congestion.
November 21, 200717 yr Let Ky.take big road projects Can't rely on feds, state leader says BY MARGARET A. MCGURK | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER November 21, 2007 WILDER - Kentucky Senate President David Williams urged bipartisan support Tuesday for his plan to let local governments take over big-ticket projects, including the Brent Spence Bridge replacement, when the federal government falls short. Williams, a Republican from Burkesville, spoke to the Northern Kentucky Chamber of Commerce about a looming crisis over infrastructure funding. The federal trust fund that for decades has paid for roads and bridges will run out of money in 2009.
November 23, 200717 yr The price tag on the Louisville bridges project is $4.1 billion and rising. It includes a lot of gold plating, including a $200+ million tunnel under one historic home in Prospect. Opponents of an eastern bridge realized they could never outright kill the project through opposition, so they pursued an alternate track of linking an eastern bridge to a new downtown bridge, Spaghetti Junction reconstruction, and other gold plating such as the aforementioned tunnel to in order to jack the price tag so high the project would collapse for lack of funding. One of the participants in this was Mayor Jerry Abramson, who long opposed an eastern bridge or anything that would allow traffic to bypass downtown Louisville. Also, the $4.1 billion does not include replacing the Kennedy Bridge downtown (I-65). That bridge would be retained under the plan and converted to one way operation while a parallel span carries the opposite direction. The problem is that the Kennedy Bridge is classified as structurally deficient and will need to be replaced in 20 years. While repairs could probably keep it going indefinitely, a bridge plan that doesn't produce a long term strategy for the Kennedy is a ultimately a failure. Cincinnati is in a much better position because it has a parallel downtown interstate crossing (I-471), as well as several other bridge crossings. More importantly, the replacement of the Spence bridge is not encumbered by local politics regarding a bypass.
November 23, 200717 yr No, the $4.1 billion Ohio River Bridges project includes a new Interstate 265 bridge and tunnel, with a redesigned U.S. 42 interchange that is under construction, a parallel Interstate 65 span, and a redesigned Interstate 64/65/71 junction. The existing junction is woefully inadequate, with one-lane though-lanes for the interstate 64 and 71 mainlines, and is a serious chokepoint for all three interstates. Considering that there are numerous left-hand entrances, major weaving issues, sharp curves, and inadequate lanes, it needs to be reconstructed even without the Ohio River Bridges project. I would dig for an Interstate 265 span mostly because it would alleviate long-distance traffic from using Interstate 64. Interstate 264 is a poor bypass for long-distance traffic because it adds a considerable amount of miles to any trip and is already congested east of US 31W during the daytime hours. My proposal is to add tolls to the Interstate 265 span and demolish the Interstate 64 Waterfront viaduct. Through-traffic would divert to Interstate 265. Interstate 64 east of Interstate 71 to Interstate 264 cannot be widened outside of four-lanes because of Cherokee Park and the Cherokee Park tunnels, which were recently listed on a federal transportation protection list (e.g. similar to the National Historic Trust) and cannot be modified to a large extent -- and the highway is congested for much of the daytime hours. Cincinnati is much better prepared for a major hiccup than Louisville is, due to the redudancy in the Interstate 275 spans and Interstate 471. IIRC, a NB I-471 to SB I-71 movement does not exist (which could be used for NB I-75 traffic), so any through trucks and cars would need to use the outer-loop.
November 26, 200717 yr Here are two articles regarding a prior through-truck ban. It was all but unenforceable and useless, especially when the bypass is so far flung. Police hope to reinforce I-75 truck ban Connie Remlinger and Michael Collins, The Kentucky Post, November 15, 1990 Kenton Judge-Executive Clyde Middleton says trucks are ignoring the ban on northbound Interstate 75 from Ft. Wright to the Ohio River. Middleton has called a meeting for Nov. 28 with the police and city officials in the communities that border the stretch of interstate to discuss ways to step up enforcement. Edition: KENTUCKY Section: NEWS Page: 1K Index Terms: TRUCK BAN; I-75 Copyright 1990, 1995 The Kentucky Post Record Number: KNP111503200330033
November 26, 200717 yr See above article as well. Truckers thumbing noses at I-275 More tractor-trailers than ever violating 'Local Only' rule on I-75 Tim Stein and Crystal Harden, The Kentucky Post, November 17, 1990 The volume of tractor-trailer traffic on Death Hill appears to have risen sharply since the start of the truck ban four years ago. More than half the northbound trucks stay on Interstate 75 through Northern Kentucky rather than take the circuitous I-275 bypass around Cincinnati.
December 20, 200717 yr Truck ban isn't enough Keeping big rigs off would help a little, but cost a lot BY MARGARET A. MCGURK | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER December 20, 2007 CINCINNATI - Keeping trucks off the overcrowded Brent Spence Bridge at rush hour would eliminate just one severe accident a year, and shift traffic woes onto Interstate 471. That is the verdict from the Ohio-Kentucky-Indiana Regional Council of Governments, which analyzed a ban's effects at the request of Covington Mayor Butch Callery.
December 20, 200717 yr >Trucks have every legal right to drive on the roads. They pay MORE than the thru cars. If anything, the engineers who built I-75, I-71, and I-275 should be blamed and punished for poor planning. The true mistake in planning was making development of the Northern Kentucky counties south (uphill) from the Ohio River basin any kind of priority. There might not be a more spectacular instance elsewhere in the country of a metro area divided by state lines by such a formidable topographical situation as the Ohio River and hills immediately south. There was pretty much nothing in those counties aside from the small river cities when I-75 opened and the designation of the region's airport in Boone County was a disaster which the region will pay for endlessly. The highway and the airport encouraged development of an area that will always be an island of flat land surrounded by steep hillsides and necessary difficult transportation links to Ohio and across the Licking River. The airport should have been in Blue Ash, Tri-County, Butler or Warren Counties on the Ohio side. We wouldn't even be discussing replacing the bridge right now otherwise. There really is no solution to the I-75 mess without largely abandoning the airport, moving its many related businesses to land near a new airport near the Big Jesus in Butler County, and watching NK housing values plummet as many homes and apartments are bulldozed. Unfortunately the childish, emotional idea that "growth" = progress continues to frame and motivate too many people and it seems nobody in Northern Kentucky will ever agree to government interference which would put an end to job and residential growth in the I-75 corridor. Jake, I know you are as informed about this subject as anyone. But what are you proposing in this post? Closing CVG to build a Warren County Apt.? Why would anything in NoKY be bulldozed? Why was the choice for CVG location a disaster? Why is the development of NoKY so bad?
January 7, 200817 yr Feds OK $4.1B Ohio River bridges plan The federal government has approved a plan to pay for a $4.1 billion project to build two Ohio River bridges and reconstruct a downtown Louisville interchange. http://www.topix.com/forum/state/in/TPPDC5BQ0OG83TBSO http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008801040479 OK am i missing something here? Where is our money? I'm sure more money is sent too the federal government in this region than in the Indiana/Ky region.
January 7, 200817 yr YES! Finally, construction can at least begin to proceed on the _much_ needed outerbypass of Louisville (Interstate 265) and a reconstucted Spaghetti interchange.
January 20, 200817 yr So this beast is still probably another 15 or so years and $3 billion away from completion...man *shakes head* Brent Spence ready for next step BY MARGARET A. MCGURK | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER January 20, 2008 CINCINNATI - Motorists’ dreams of fixing the Brent Spence Bridge will soon start moving toward the drawing board, as engineers and politicians take a crucial step in replacing the aging and accident-prone bottleneck on the route between the northern tip of Michigan to and Miami. The bridge carries about 150,000 vehicles a day – almost twice its intended maximum load – and is in urgent need of replacement. “Urgent” in this case means building a new bridge within about eight years – a virtual eye blink for what will easily be the largest and most complex public works project in Greater Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky since the bridge’s construction 44 years ago.
January 20, 200817 yr It can’t happen fast enough for drivers like David Freytag, who crosses the bridge daily commuting between his Villa Hills home and his job in Mason. This guy shouldn't be complaining since he has to drive so far. His own doing.
January 20, 200817 yr ^While the guy isn't quoted as saying anything that selfish, I find it funny that he is so afraid of driving on the bridge but not the rest of I-75. I'll admit that driving the bridge is nerve-inducing for the very reasons it is being called unsafe (no shoulders and tight merges) but I suspect that because of such thing people drive more carefully on the bridge than any other part of I-75 in the metro area. And anyone choosing to make that commute should have all his choices viewed with a bit more skepticism than most people.
January 20, 200817 yr So much of this traffic is a symptom of women entering the workforce in large numbers, obviously if his wife works somewhere close to Villa Hills then his predicament is not so silly. Also, there is a tendency for people to stay on their side of the river even when a new job is on the other. Also, long commutes like this add a car to all of 20 miles of highway whereas a a commute of say 5 miles only adds a car to 5 miles of roadway. So it's not just number of cars but length of those commutes that factor into total traffic volume. Also, with the current situation, all NK transit riders need to transfer in downtown Cincinnati to Metro and vice verse. With light rail, that would not have been the case, a significant simplification and time-saver. Search Metro and Tank's websites for how much it costs to transfer from one to the other. I can't find it, even though I know it's possible. There is a combined Metro/Tank unlimitted monthly pass, it would be interesting to know how many of those they sell. I'd guess under 300 per month.
January 21, 200817 yr Mark Policinski, executive director of the Ohio-Kentucky-Indiana Regional Council of Governments (the agency that guides transportation in our region), is enthusiastic about public participations, but a critic of the complex planning requirements stemming from federal rules. “Engineers will say you can cut the federal process by 40 to 50 percent by using techniques that have been in the private sector for years,” he said. He cited the case of the Interstate 40 bridge in Oklahoma that fell in 2002 when a barge hit its pilings. “They built an alternate bridge in 59 days,” said Policinski. “Granted, that’s not the same, they had not anywhere near the volume” of the Brent Spence. “But 59 days versus 18 years? There has got to be a better way to build things in this country. … We have got to shorten the process.” What? Big Government Bureaucracy needlessly delays progress and drastically increases costs? NEVER! :evil: Also, with the current situation, all NK transit riders need to transfer in downtown Cincinnati to Metro and vice verse. With light rail, that would not have been the case, a significant simplification and time-saver. Search Metro and Tank's websites for how much it costs to transfer from one to the other. I can't find it, even though I know it's possible. There is a combined Metro/Tank unlimitted monthly pass, it would be interesting to know how many of those they sell. I'd guess under 300 per month. Good point. I've always believed that having two bus systems as our only mass transit makes the public less likely to use either of them. Buses are confusing enough without having to deal with two separate entities and schedules. If we had a light rail system, that wouldn't matter as much, because people would rarely need to transfer between TANK and Metro.
January 21, 200817 yr If we had a light rail system, that wouldn't matter as much, because people would rarely need to transfer between TANK and Metro. Cost of a replacement for the Brent Spence Bridge: $3 billion Cost of the Regional Rail Plan defeated in 2002: $2.4 billion
January 21, 200817 yr If we had a light rail system, that wouldn't matter as much, because people would rarely need to transfer between TANK and Metro. Cost of a replacement for the Brent Spence Bridge: $3 billion Cost of the Regional Rail Plan defeated in 2002: $2.4 billion I hate life sometimes...
January 21, 200817 yr Dump all the thru truck traffic onto 275. Impose huge fines for any truck using 71/75 thru cincinnati that is not here on business.
January 21, 200817 yr Dump all the thru truck traffic onto 275. Impose huge fines for any truck using 71/75 thru cincinnati that is not here on business. That is a band-aid fix and will not help the problem.
January 21, 200817 yr If we had a light rail system, that wouldn't matter as much, because people would rarely need to transfer between TANK and Metro. Cost of a replacement for the Brent Spence Bridge: $3 billion Cost of the Regional Rail Plan defeated in 2002: $2.4 billion I hate life sometimes... If you could only get that put on the front page of the Sunday paper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 21, 200817 yr That is a band-aid fix and will not help the problem. The problem is the trucks are causing the problems on that bridge and about about 2-3 miles to the south and 2-3 miles to the north.
January 21, 200817 yr No. The problem is a structurally obsolete highway system in the area, too many cars on the road due to our auto-centric world. Highways are for transport. If people are commuting, they should be using public transport, carpooling, ect. This is why we need a comprehensive transportation plan. Taking trucks off the road would be a short-term fix. And they pay just as much gas tax (if not more) than other vehicles, so why can't they have equal access to the public highways. Once the trucks are gone, more cars will come and just fill in those spaces anyway, so you have the same problem yet again.
January 21, 200817 yr If we had a light rail system, that wouldn't matter as much, because people would rarely need to transfer between TANK and Metro. Cost of a replacement for the Brent Spence Bridge: $3 billion Cost of the Regional Rail Plan defeated in 2002: $2.4 billion You know if Vancouver can afford a 14 billion dollar transportation plan i'm sure Cincinnati can. They are the same sized markets.
January 21, 200817 yr ^They have universal health care in Canada too...things are just different north of the border.
January 21, 200817 yr ^ Yikes! Please don't compare public transit to universal health care. It's unpopular enough already in this town without associating it with a hot button issue like that one! No. The problem is a structurally obsolete highway system in the area, too many cars on the road due to our auto-centric world. Highways are for transport. If people are commuting, they should be using public transport, carpooling, ect. This is why we need a comprehensive transportation plan. Taking trucks off the road would be a short-term fix. And they pay just as much gas tax (if not more) than other vehicles, so why can't they have equal access to the public highways. Once the trucks are gone, more cars will come and just fill in those spaces anyway, so you have the same problem yet again. I agree that trucks have as much right to the highway as cars. But shouldn't heavy rail be for transport, not highways? Nothing burns me up like seeing a semi with Canadian plates driving south through Kentucky. That load had to be DRIVEN all that way? Really?
January 21, 200817 yr ^Truck driving is big business. I mean the average driver makes 50k a year. You just can't end a transportation mode like that and have everything on rails.
January 21, 200817 yr I had a dream. Here is my 2 minute idea for Brent Spence Bridge, Molak style. Screw a new bridge, don't need it! Ban all thru trucks 71/75 inside 275. Build a nice light rail system connecting the airport/covington/downtown and everywhere else. Make the fast lanes on 75 an HOV lane. Hope gas goes to $7. gallon. (to cut down on people unnecessarily driving to walmart to buy poison chihuaha chicken strips) Streetcar system downtown + 5 new phases. Bike trails and bike lanes on more roadways.
January 21, 200817 yr I had a dream. Here is my 2 minute idea for Brent Spence Bridge, Molak style. Screw a new bridge, don't need it! Ban all thru trucks 71/75 inside 275. Build a nice light rail system connecting the airport/covington/downtown and everywhere else. Make the fast lanes on 75 an HOV lane. Hope gas goes to $7. gallon. (to cut down on people unnecessarily driving to walmart to buy poison chihuaha chicken strips) Streetcar system downtown + 5 new phases. Bike trails and bike lanes on more roadways. You can't do that. If we spend less no one would have a job.
January 21, 200817 yr You would actually spend more because there would be no need to own a car and somebody who buys a 20K car will spend an average of 40k over 5 years for a depreciating hunk of polluting metal. I am carless and I spend more because I have more to spend AND I buy locally to support the local economy.
January 21, 200817 yr ^Truck driving is big business. I mean the average driver makes 50k a year. You just can't end a transportation mode like that and have everything on rails. Why not? Speaking totally hypothetically here, if it is possible to design a system that is cheaper, cleaner, safer, and/or more efficient than the current one, then why shouldn't it be put into place? Should auto manufacturers not use robots to build cars, because doing so meant that some of the plant workers lost their jobs? Industries thrive and languish based on market conditions, technology, and opportunity. Sometimes when those conditions change, it's necessary for people to find another line of work. Employment is a privilege, not a right. Simply propping up the status quo in any industry on the basis that it currently employs people is irresponsible, because it impedes progress for the sake of a few, at the expense of everyone.
January 21, 200817 yr Cost of a replacement for the Brent Spence Bridge: $3 billion Cost of the Regional Rail Plan defeated in 2002: $2.4 billion With all due respect (and bear in mind that by saying that that means I can say anything I want) the 2002 Regional Rail Plan didn't actually fund any regional rail into Kentucky.
January 21, 200817 yr If we had a light rail system, that wouldn't matter as much, because people would rarely need to transfer between TANK and Metro. Cost of a replacement for the Brent Spence Bridge: $3 billion Cost of the Regional Rail Plan defeated in 2002: $2.4 billion My math might be a little off on this one, but in cost per foot Brent Spence Bridge: $1,800,000 Regional Rail Plan: $7,500
January 21, 200817 yr And looking at it from a current standpoint, the Brent Spence Bridge carries over 110,000 VPD, and light rail -- which would only serve Cincinnati and not northern Kentucky at this point, would serve far less. Interstate 75 is a critical north-south connector, and letting the bridge deteriorate further -- structurally and functionally -- would only increase the already-high accident rate and only compound issues down the road. And escalate costs. As it stands, the Kennedy Bridge in Louisville, which carries Interstate 65, is a cantaliver design similar to the Brent Spence Bridge and is suffering from major corrosion of its anchor bolts. These cannot be replaced and have corroded due to wind, rain and de-icing agents. The bolts are anywhere from normal wear-and-tear, to 20-30% corroded. As a result, KYTC will be inspecting the Brent Spence's anchor bolts...
January 21, 200817 yr Thomas, I made this point on another thread. It is 5-10 times more costly to replace Brent Spence and upgrade I-75 than to build a light transit system. I believe it was you that snickered about it ;-) Maximillian, I could not tell you how much I hate semi trucks. But the bottom line is that the belt is WAY too big to detour the thru trucks. You are talking adding 45 min-1 hour drive to EACH truck that would take the detour. That is a lot more gas and a lot more delays for product that you, me and everyone here counts on being stocked up at our grocers and food marts and gas stations....even if they aren't local, when do you not shop somewhere south of Cinci when you are taking a trip, vacation and what not? Goods need to be delivered in a timely manner. I would not be against an independent freeway system for transport though, but that would just be ridiculously expensive and land consuming. The best option is to use rail over great distances for transport or maybe limit day travel? I see no reason why road transport could not be a night only business?
January 21, 200817 yr There are a lot of industries that use the Just-In-Time methodology, such as Toyota, that cannot rely solely upon "night only" traffic. Deliveries come in 24-hours-a-day, 7-days-a-week by truck and rail, and asking for night only deliveries would be unjustifiable. That approach may have worked decades ago, but today's logistics simply cannot compound that. As for the beltway, it is simply far too long to be of any relief to trucks. I have an uncle who is a truck driver and he refuses to use the beltway because it is much faster to take the routes inside the city -- Interstates 71, 74 and 75. Trucks are needed to make local deliveries as well. And using Interstate 471 is not totally feasible as it suffers from congestion much like Interstate 71/75, and has a poor loop-ramp connection to Fort Washington Way -- wholly unacceptable for trucks to use en masse.
January 21, 200817 yr a lot more delays for product that you, me and everyone here counts on being stocked up at our grocers and food marts and gas stations Those trucks don't have to go around 275 because they are doing business in OUR city. Besides I don't buy at food marts... The trucks that are passing thru our great city and not contributing anything but diesel fumes and wear and tear on our roads can go around. :-P Higher prices? oh well!
January 21, 200817 yr At a time when food and fuel inflation increased at a rapid rate (consumer prices rose 4.1% in 2007, the highest in 17 years), and a recession is likely to increase pressures on inflation? And at a time when we are entering a recession (check the stock markets worldwide today, whose steep drops are based upon estimations that we will enter a recession)?
January 21, 200817 yr "Cost of a replacement for the Brent Spence Bridge: $3 billion Cost of the Regional Rail Plan defeated in 2002: $2.4 billion" It's hard to imagine that voters would approve $3 billion for a Brent Spence bridge replacement, either.
January 22, 200817 yr They do not necessarily need to approve of it. It's a Federal Highway Project and it would receive 90/10 (Federal/State) funding under optimum times. I'm not for sure if this is a special case, but I can look it up later.
January 22, 200817 yr "Cost of a replacement for the Brent Spence Bridge: $3 billion Cost of the Regional Rail Plan defeated in 2002: $2.4 billion" It's hard to imagine that voters would approve $3 billion for a Brent Spence bridge replacement, either. Yea, one of these days, Hamilton County voters are gonna have to wake up. But I think the problem is the Kentucky funding, isn't it?
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