January 28, 200817 yr Those barriers are called "Jersey Barriers" because it's the design New Jersey developed that became the standard. Previous to that expressways were not so generic, with vernacular signage and so on. That "Cincinnati 12/Dayton 34" sign in Lockland is probably the only old-school sign surviving on I-75, those median signs are a lot more common in California. There also used to be a warehouse in the middle of the I-71/75 interchange north of the bridge, where the Valvoline billboard is now. It was higher than the southbound lanes and added another interesting element to the situation. Also look at how poorly those lanes are striped, I remember it was around 1990 when the better paint and the in-pavement reflectors started appearing. Also old cars used to leak a lot of oil, creating the black stripes in the center of the lanes. It still happens but not nearly to the extent it used to. >I think Mike-Sells still uses the truck in the first pic. That same lady on the billboard is still on Channel 12.
January 28, 200817 yr ^ The last image shows just a curbed median, which was supplemented with a guardrail and later replaced with a jersey barrier after many spectacular accidents. Kentucky originally used all white stripes on highways, but switched to the current yellow/white scheme in the mid-1970s (IIRC, 1974). They began using heat-transfered pavement markers (the current raised markers) in the early 1990s on most interstate highways, which contain bits of glass, reflector and plastic paint that offers enhanced visibility at night and during rain storms, and do not need repainting for five or more years.
January 28, 200817 yr Here is a photo of the bridge in its original lane configuration, with just two through lanes: My guess is that the 2 lane section was very short. In the above pic, the lanes drop and add from the 'route 8' exit and entrances...and in the following pic, looks like they add drop to the south for the 5th Sy (Covington Exit) ^ There is the original median. Safe!
January 29, 200817 yr These pictures are just so fascinating to me. Anyone know of where there are more? Is that a tower crane in the photo for the Quality Inn/Radisson?
January 29, 200817 yr I posted what the library had in regards to the bridge and Interstate 75 -- Interstate 75 in Kentucky Brent Spence Bridge I also have photos from Interstate 275, and of various bridges on the two web-sites above.
January 29, 200817 yr I posted what the library had in regards to the bridge and Interstate 75 -- Interstate 75 in Kentucky Brent Spence Bridge I also have photos from Interstate 275, and of various bridges on the two web-sites above. Thanks! I saw those. Did you dig them out of the library? I wonder if there are more there. Seeing how things have developed and changed in these pics is enthralling.
January 29, 200817 yr These are great. We need to come up with a big batch of all the old photos we can find.
January 29, 200817 yr These pictures are just so fascinating to me. Anyone know of where there are more? Is that a tower crane in the photo for the Quality Inn/Radisson? Sure looks like it!
January 29, 200817 yr Kenton County Public Library is where most came from. There are tons of images there.
January 30, 200817 yr It looks like the bridge will be tolled. Frankfort has no money from what todays article said. One good thing this will speed up the process.
January 30, 200817 yr What article is that? I know that there are representatives clamouring that the Ohio River Bridges project be tolled, as they have now exceeded $4 billion in costs (up from an original <$2 billion estimate not that many years ago) -- due to materials and labour inflation. There was an article a few days ago in the Courier Journal in regards to that.
January 31, 200817 yr I know that there are representatives clamouring that the Ohio River Bridges project be tolled, as they have now exceeded $4 billion in costs (up from an original <$2 billion estimate not that many years ago) -- due to materials and labour inflation. There was an article a few days ago in the Courier Journal in regards to that. I love the fact that you spelled labour with a u in it. :-D
January 31, 200817 yr Tolls An Option To Replace Brent Spence Bridge http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=5d1cbf53-465b-4d91-af62-2e3e92df531b
January 31, 200817 yr There is no room in KY for the tolls if you ask me. I'm sure Ohio will not have any being as it's KY's bridge.
January 31, 200817 yr There is little room for a toll plaza, and it would require additional land which would simply kill off many UrbanOhio members here :) You can put in as many high-speed toll lanes as you want, but there is still going to be a proportion of the population that will continue to pay with change. That, and I do not believe that a toll plaza at the base of a steep downhill grade that has been the site of numerous spectacular accidents is the best option. Many states are studying the tolled option. Kentucky had toll roads in the past, so it is not all that out of the question for Kentucky to construct anew. West Virginia has opened up studies for state wide tolling (and was studied briefly along US 35).
January 31, 200817 yr That, and I do not believe that a toll plaza at the base of a steep downhill grade that has been the site of numerous spectacular accidents is the best option. Why would we have to place them there? You could place them before that decline and avoid that safety issue you bring up...I'm pretty sure there would be enough room up there for a plaza as well. As for congestion at the toll plaza, well duh. It is a form of congestion pricing...if you want to avoid that mess then maybe you should find an alternate route, carpool, or advocate for rail transit alternatives. I understand the issues with implementing a toll plaza (especially on the much more congested Ohio side), but I think it is definitely an idea worth exploring.
January 31, 200817 yr There is room right at the bottom of the hill but you might have to take out the old Jillian's building. There is a small field also that is suppose to be developed into something i think. That could be an issue. wow you will need a ton of room for about 10 lanes each way shortly before and after the toll both. Will they have a small toll both at the exits right off the Brent Spence???? Alot of stuff would have to be worked out.
January 31, 200817 yr does anyone think that there will actually be three billion dollars from the guv'ment to pull this project off?
January 31, 200817 yr ^If it takes an hour just to cross the bridge i think the government will step up.
January 31, 200817 yr Or just take Interstate 471. A local free alternative that is very close by, and offers connections to downtown Cincinnati. To reply to Randy, if you move the toll booth further up, away from the Brent Spence, then you would be technically tolling the interstate highway itself and not the bridge. That would require FHWA exemption since the interstate was constructed with federal funds, which is very, very difficult and can take many years to pass. The only exemptions granted was for Interstate 95 in South Carolina (which carries a high proportion of out-of-state drivers), and for a pilot project of similar scale in North Carolina. Pennsylvania was just denied exemption to toll Interstate 80.
January 31, 200817 yr ^If it takes an hour just to cross the bridge i think the government will step up. there is a very real possiblity the highway trustfunds for the USA, KY, and OH will all be bankrupt at the same time
January 31, 200817 yr ^If it takes an hour just to cross the bridge i think the government will step up. there is a very real possiblity the highway trustfunds for the USA, KY, and OH will all be bankrupt at the same time Unfortunately it seems that they always find a way to fund projects like this...but a project that costs roughly $100M - a fraction of the cost - is highly debated. I won't name names, but it just seems crazy to me.
January 31, 200817 yr Not really. We have suspended all new transportation-related projects in the state because of Beshear's "budget crisis."
January 31, 200817 yr does anyone think that there will actually be three billion dollars from the guv'ment to pull this project off? To be honest, no. I can't help but think that the final solution for this project will just be continued maintenance of the existing span. Finding $3 billion is going to be difficult, convincing drivers to use tolls will be even harder, especially with a free interstate crossing with the Big Mac Bridge. Hell, they may end up tolling that as well. Let's face it, there are better transportation solutions that 3 billion dollars can be spent on. Think of the possibilities. It could be beautiful.
January 31, 200817 yr There is room right at the bottom of the hill but you might have to take out the old Jillian's building. There is a small field also that is suppose to be developed into something i think. That could be an issue. wow you will need a ton of room for about 10 lanes each way shortly before and after the toll both. Will they have a small toll both at the exits right off the Brent Spence???? Alot of stuff would have to be worked out. Personally, I prefer to think of it as the old Bavarian Brewery. And you'd have to demolish a lot more than that to fit a major toll plaza into Covington, including the beautiful St. John's catholic church and soon-to-be-built St. Elizabeth Hospital, not to mention large portions of the very neighborhood that was decimated when the expressway cut through it the first time. This would be a horrifically bad place for a toll plaza, and that's before you consider the traffic backups you'd create on Death Hill and on the Brent Spence itself (I'm assuming you'd toll both directions). The best place for a toll like this is between 275 and Buttermilk Pike. It's level, straight, and relatively undeveloped. As side benefit, seeing the plaza would prompt many drivers to opt for 275/471 instead, which would take traffic off of the bridge in the short term. Speaking of the Bavarian Brewery building... Kentucky has been doing a lot of talk (separately) about legalized gambling, the Brent Spence Bridge, and demolishing this gorgeous historic structure. I wonder if we could kill several birds with one stone by putting a casino in the Bavarian Brewery. It has already been rehabbed into a massive bar complex with a pool hall, bowling alley, and sports bar. "The Tower" which was used recently as a multi-story club, could be used for game tables and the video game lounge could easily accomodate slot machines instead. Would it be legal to designate taxes generated by a casino to replace the bridge that feeds it? This is probably impossible, but KY leaders keep asking for creative financing ideas.
January 31, 200817 yr They state would need to goto NYC and see how their bridges are tolled. I've drove through it once and the weekend traffic was bad.
January 31, 200817 yr But there are no high-speed EZ-Pass lanes, and the facilities in general are horribly antiquated. Given that nearly all of the crossings are tolled, and that they are spaced further apart with limited connections and major congestion, it's not as easy to dodge the tolls as it would be to do if Interstate 75/Brent Spence Bridge is tolled.
January 31, 200817 yr How about some frickin' rail transit?!?! To cover this route would be only a fraction of the total $3B, but it would actually take cars off the road instead of just accommodating more of them.
January 31, 200817 yr ^ I'm definitely with you on that. We seriously need regional rail in this city. But that would still leave the majority of interstate traffic using this route. They made a big mistake when they decided to combine 71 and 75 through northern KY, and we're going to be paying for that for a long, long time.
January 31, 200817 yr The combination of those interstates doesn't matter as much as people think it does because it has been determined that percentage-wise little traffic actually completely traverses the region, less than 20%. Remember, the original routing for I-471 was planned along the NK riverfront (a sort of mirror to FWW) and would have seen hundreds of historic properties demolished. The place where I've seen large amounts of traffic avoiding tolls was in Spain, where the newer "interstates" all had regular tolls but large lines of trucks could be seen traveling on the often parallel "state route", which were also often just two-lane roads. There they made the mistake of building the new roads literally right next to the old roads, and as has been mentioned on this thread numerous times, traveling on I-275 & I-471 is 5+ miles farther. If the toll booth is placed between the 12th St. Covington exit and the bridge, that would introduce some traffic to the Clay Wade Bailey & Suspension Bridges, but hopefully they aren't stupid enough to do that. But if anything this whole situation is hopefully a lesson to the youngsters reading this on how idiotic the government can be.
January 31, 200817 yr But if anything this whole situation is hopefully a lesson to the youngsters reading this on how idiotic the government can be. How old are you again...like 45 right? :-D
January 31, 200817 yr One of the requirements, by the FHWA, to toll interstate highways that were constructed with federal dollars, is that a local, free alternative be made available. Such was the case for North Carolina and South Carolina, when they applied for toll roads on existing interstate highways, but was not the case for Pennsylvania's Interstate 80. Another exception was the West Virginia Turnpike, which did not carry Interstates 64 and 77 until 1986, when the four-lane upgrades were complete. The highway was tolled, even though there was the 90/10 funding match, due to the extremely high costs of upgrading the facility. I see no reason why the FHWA would grant a toll booth at the top of Death Hill, or at the bottom.
January 31, 200817 yr So what would happen if KY were to look towards privatization of that highway stretch? Is that out of the realm of possibilities?
January 31, 200817 yr Philly actually has one way tolls on the DRPA bridges over the Delaware. You only get tolled heading into Philly. There is a similar toll bridge between Yorktown and Gloucester in Hampton Roads. The toll is only collected heading south toward Yorktown. 75 down the hill is designed in such a way that I think you could have non-tolled local lanes that end at the fifth street exit that flows separate from tolls collected at the top of the hill for traffic that travels over the bridge. If you are worried about offlow, I'd go ahead an toll the Suspension Bridge and the Clay Wade Bailey too.
January 31, 200817 yr from the enquirer HIGHER TAXES WOULD BE BETTER THAN TOLLS I fear our politicians are entertaining the idea of toll roads and bridges just so they can say they didn't vote for new taxes. But everyone must realize that tolls are a form of taxation, albeit an inefficient one. Collecting tolls will require more infrastructure and bureaucracy, which consumes a portion of the the revenue collected. Since the commuter is going to pay the cost anyway, it makes more sense to collect this revenue through gasoline taxes, without the additional bureaucracy and the inconvenience to drivers. All it takes is a little backbone from our elected officials. Tim Courtney
January 31, 200817 yr How much a gallon though? When gas is $4.50 a gallon it really should be $3.85 because of this new tax? and this covers what counties?? Of course i not sure how much the tax would be but to consider it's Ky's bridge It would centuries to pay off in Kenton county alone.
January 31, 200817 yr So what would happen if KY were to look towards privatization of that highway stretch? Is that out of the realm of possibilities? It would force Kentucky to pay back the Federal Government all of the expenditures occurred over the years, including the original construction and Death Hill reconstruction payments. When Kentucky operated tolled facilities, they were constructed and owned by the state, not by a private company.
January 31, 200817 yr from the enquirer HIGHER TAXES WOULD BE BETTER THAN TOLLS I'm more of a proponent of tolling existing facilities for varying reasons. Raising gasoline taxes would be political suicide, especially as hordes of people already whine and complain about the "high" costs of fuel.
January 31, 200817 yr >When Kentucky operated tolled facilities, they were constructed and owned by the state, not by a private company. So are they no longer charging tolls on that Cumberland Parkway and whatever the other one was?
January 31, 200817 yr June 1, 2003 was the day when tolls were removed from the Cumberland and Daniel Boone Parkways, and in October 2006 from the Natcher and Audubon Parkways. The revenues were used to pay off the bonds, and in the case of the four parkways whose tolls were removed in 2003 and 2006, the bonds were retired slightly early.
February 5, 200817 yr There is room right at the bottom of the hill but you might have to take out the old Jillian's building. There is a small field also that is suppose to be developed into something i think. That could be an issue. wow you will need a ton of room for about 10 lanes each way shortly before and after the toll both. Will they have a small toll both at the exits right off the Brent Spence???? Alot of stuff would have to be worked out. Personally, I prefer to think of it as the old Bavarian Brewery. And you'd have to demolish a lot more than that to fit a major toll plaza into Covington, including the beautiful St. John's catholic church and soon-to-be-built St. Elizabeth Hospital, not to mention large portions of the very neighborhood that was decimated when the expressway cut through it the first time. This would be a horrifically bad place for a toll plaza, and that's before you consider the traffic backups you'd create on Death Hill and on the Brent Spence itself (I'm assuming you'd toll both directions). The best place for a toll like this is between 275 and Buttermilk Pike. It's level, straight, and relatively undeveloped. As side benefit, seeing the plaza would prompt many drivers to opt for 275/471 instead, which would take traffic off of the bridge in the short term. Speaking of the Bavarian Brewery building... Kentucky has been doing a lot of talk (separately) about legalized gambling, the Brent Spence Bridge, and demolishing this gorgeous historic structure. I wonder if we could kill several birds with one stone by putting a casino in the Bavarian Brewery. It has already been rehabbed into a massive bar complex with a pool hall, bowling alley, and sports bar. "The Tower" which was used recently as a multi-story club, could be used for game tables and the video game lounge could easily accomodate slot machines instead. Would it be legal to designate taxes generated by a casino to replace the bridge that feeds it? This is probably impossible, but KY leaders keep asking for creative financing ideas. Apparently, someone else had this idea as well, as Columbia Sussex announced yesterday that they have purchased the Bavarian Brewery: http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008802050399 Something tells me this means only more traffic on the bridge, and not more funding for it, though.
February 13, 200817 yr Tolls may be dead on arrival Could hinge on bridge funding BY PATRICK CROWLEY | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER February 13, 2008 FRANKFORT - Legislation that could lead to tolls being used to pay for the replacement of the Brent Spence Bridge over the Ohio River appears to be in trouble and might be yanked by its sponsor. Gov. Steve Beshear's administration today will unveil its highway spending plan, the much awaited "six-year road plan."
February 23, 200817 yr List of new routes for Brent Spence delayed BY MARGARET A. MCGURK | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER February 23, 2008 In a new delay, the short list of potential routes for a new Brent Spence Bridge will not be ready until October, planning officials announced Friday. A couple of years ago, the short list was expected by the end of 2007. More recently, it had been expected as early as this spring.
February 23, 200817 yr Question?? They found no routes at all?? Why not list what they had and why would 6 months be needed for something they already were paid to do by now. No doubt they want more money and grants from the government. One good weekend can have them solved.
February 28, 200817 yr Here's the schedule for the rest of the project: Certified traffic data... 6/16/08 Final revised alternatives... 8/6/08 Conceptual alternatives study... 10/24/08 Assessment of feasible alternatives... 8/3/09 Preferred alternative verification report... 8/16/10 Draft environmental document... 9/2/10 Final environmental document... 4/21/11
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