This is a photo of Fountain Square that I saw on Wikipedia this evening and it made me wonder if the visional appear of the square has improved?  Sometimes you forget what it truly looked like, while there are many pluses, I can tell you that I miss the pedestrian bridge from a photography standpoint.  I can no longer capture that shot of mobs of people pushing their way through 5th Street during Oktoberfest. :(

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cincinnati-fountain-square-full.jpg

 

Well aside from your personal connection to that pedestrian bridge...I don't think many people miss it.  Especially from a streetscape/urban design perspective.  The square is 10x better with the renovations.  The materials are better, there are more shaded areas, a video board, a more personal Genius experience, more open feel, plus extra activity due to the reorganization of the square and the other features.

 

Fountain Square before renovation -- 6/10

Fountain Square after renovation -- 10/10

I am just playing devil's advocate.  While I like the square today, I am unsure about where the Fountain is currently located.  I just thought I would post this picture to remind people what the square used to look like compared to today.

I liked the swirling stone on the square better than the current materials.  But that's probably just my uninformed opinion...

^I liked the old fan pattern of stone better too.

 

I am just playing devil's advocate.  While I like the square today, I am unsure about where the Fountain is currently located.  I just thought I would post this picture to remind people what the square used to look like compared to today.

 

Funny story: in the midst of the debate about moving the fountain, Jim Tarbell called me early on a Sunday morning and said, "C'mon, let's get a cup of coffee." I asked if it could wait, and he said, "Absolutely not."

 

 

 

 

[Resumed from above due to bad hand-eye coordination]

 

Funny story: in the midst of the debate about moving the fountain, Jim Tarbell called me early on a Sunday morning and said, "C'mon, let's get a cup of coffee." I asked if it could wait, and he said, "Absolutely not."

 

So he led me over to the Starbucks at Fourth and Vine and then back to the Square. Then he said, "Wait a minute", and he proceeded to step off distances and then gather up tables and chairs and rearrange them in a pattern I didn't understand.

 

When he finished, he had placed one of the large green tables in about the center of the Square together with chairs at the four points of the compass about twenty feet from the table.

 

I said, "OK, what's that for?" He then pointed out that he had placed the table when the fountain was to be moved to, and the chairs represented the edges of the pool surrounding it.

 

Then we pulled a couple of chairs to the table and drank our coffee, even going back to Starbucks for refills.

 

He asked me what I thought. I said that I hadn't thought about it much -- didn't even know before then where the new location was to be -- but my real estate instincts led me to conclude that the new location was better. It would be further away from the traffic noise and pollution coming from Fifth Street and would be likely to be more in the sun on the shortest and coldest winter days, i.e. not in the shadow of The Westin Hotel. I also told him that bringing it back to the north would reduce the glare of early-morning and late-afternoon sun on the hottest summer days.

 

He said something like, "But you won't be able to see it coming down Fifth Street anymore." And I said, "What kind of downtown are we building here -- a drive-through downtown or one that tends to honor pedestrians more?" I told him that the move was entirely consistent with the logic of taking down the skywalks and making the Square more pedestrian friendly.

 

After a while, he agreed.

He said something like, "But you won't be able to see it coming down Fifth Street anymore." And I said, "What kind of downtown are we building here -- a drive-through downtown or one that tends to honor pedestrians more?" I told him that the move was entirely consistent with the logic of taking down the skywalks and making the Square more pedestrian friendly.

 

You couldn't have put it much better than that.  The new FS design entices people to get out of their vehicles and be engaged on the public square.  Aside from the extra retail, events and video board...the actual design encourages increased activity as well.

Is it me, or am I actually seeing a trend in local media stations covering just about anything that is organized on the square.    Even my suburban queen of a mother commented on the many different activities that have been going on down there since the renovation.

 

Just an optimistic observation!

Sorry for bumping such an old thread, but I'm wondering if there are any other photographs of the square before the renovation.  I first came to Cincinnati during the rehab and I love the new square, but I can't properly discuss pros and cons without knowing the layout of the previous iteration.  What was here the trees are now?  Were they able to host events in the square like they do now?  Was there an ice skating rink?

They had smaller ice rink, closer to Vine street.  It was about half the size of the current one, and was up for a shorter period each season.  Skating was $1.

 

Before, the entire square sloped southward and there was a raised platform on the northeast corner for announcement/events, but you couldn't put a real stage there.

Well, here's what it looked like in 1910.

That's Fountain Square on the right & Tiffany's on the left hand corner as the image looks N on Vine.

I think this is from 1958:

 

OK...you asked for it!

 

An early shot looking west.

 

Vintage Postcard - Fountain Square, Cincinnati, Ohio by riptheskull, on Flickr

 

Early 1960's when it was in the center of Fifth on an esplanade.

 

Tyler Davidson Fountain in its original location by mgsmith, on Flickr

 

1966 during a move.  Notice it is still in the center of Fifth.

 

Northeast 1966 -10 by mgsmith, on Flickr

 

Fountain Square (1978) by matthunterross, on Flickr

 

1978 after the Albee was demo'd but before the Gibson was.

 

Fountain Square (1978) by matthunterross, on Flickr

 

And a cool shot showing the square but also the contruction of FP and the demo'd 5th/Race Tower.  October, 1996.

 

1990-1999-216 by Jason Rossiter, on Flickr

 

 

 

Sorry for bumping such an old thread, but I'm wondering if there are any other photographs of the square before the renovation.  I first came to Cincinnati during the rehab and I love the new square, but I can't properly discuss pros and cons without knowing the layout of the previous iteration.  What was here the trees are now?  Were they able to host events in the square like they do now?  Was there an ice skating rink?

 

Keep in mind that the pictures you see are going to be a mixture of the beautiful pre-1960s esplande and the horrific redo that followed.  The renovation you are referring two was actually the second in ~40 years.  The "new" Fountain Square is a huge improvement over what preceded it, but doesn't come close to the original.

I appreciate the esplanade shots.  It was beautiful.  I'm really trying to compare the 1960s-2005 square to today. 

 

Before just now I had no idea there was a wall between 5th and the square.  That's terrible.  I get the design though...that's a really good way to force people to use that bridge.  I also haven't seen any pictures of the North half of the square or the bridge on the West side of the square that Cincyimages referenced in the first post. 

 

It seems that it is a HUGE improvement, yet I'm still fighting with various people who think that 3CDC ruined the square.  Is it PURELY because you can't see the fountain driving down 5th anymore?

Yes I agree the original square must have been a bustling yet peaceful spot, since the esplanade forced traffic to slow down a bit, like Piatt Park.  There were a few factors that motivated the new square, first and foremost the flow of traffic off I-75's ramps on newly one-way 5th to the corporate offices east of Walnut. 

It seems that it is a HUGE improvement, yet I'm still fighting with various people who think that 3CDC ruined the square.  Is it PURELY because you can't see the fountain driving down 5th anymore?

 

I don't know anyone who preferred the previous iteration of Fountain Square to the current one.  I know some folks who thought it wasn't worth redoing and some who still aren't thrilled with the current version, but I've never heard anyone claim it's a step backward.

It's supposed to be a public square and the city leased it to 3CDC thus putting a public place into the hands of a private entity. They have scheduled a lot of activity and thus made it kind of 'forced' (?).

People have complained about these things but that's nothing to do with layout.

I first visited Cincinnati only a few years ago, so I've only seen the current incarnation of Fountain Square. In all my travels, I must say, Fountain Square is one of the better downtown public spaces I've seen in a city. It always seems busy with people and it's an attractive space to just sit and hang out . I also really love the inclusion of the video board and I think it's really neat when they play sporting events on there and have the beer truck set up. I wish Cleveland would follow some of Cincinnati's leads here with Public Square

 

Edit:

 

Here are a couple pics from September when they were playing the USA vs. Mexico game on the video screen

 

 

 

 

Sorry for bumping such an old thread, but I'm wondering if there are any other photographs of the square before the renovation.  I first came to Cincinnati during the rehab and I love the new square, but I can't properly discuss pros and cons without knowing the layout of the previous iteration.  What was here the trees are now?  Were they able to host events in the square like they do now?  Was there an ice skating rink?

 

Keep in mind that the pictures you see are going to be a mixture of the beautiful pre-1960s esplande and the horrific redo that followed.  The renovation you are referring two was actually the second in ~40 years.  The "new" Fountain Square is a huge improvement over what preceded it, but doesn't come close to the original.

 

Horrific is a strong word. The old Fountain Square was a great space and a great design for the time. The new one is much better. You do not get to where we are today without the space that existed in the 1970's. When it was an esplanade it was really not a great public gathering space. What they did in the 1970's was make it more of a public square which promoted a public gathering. The 2006 renovation just enhanced that. Calling the old one horrific is a bit much.

I could do without the 24/7 idiot box. There's plenty of people to watch.

Quimbob - It creates additional excitement and is a draw for people. It creates a tailgate type atmosphere.

It seems that it is a HUGE improvement, yet I'm still fighting with various people who think that 3CDC ruined the square.  Is it PURELY because you can't see the fountain driving down 5th anymore?

 

I don't know anyone who preferred the previous iteration of Fountain Square to the current one.  I know some folks who thought it wasn't worth redoing and some who still aren't thrilled with the current version, but I've never heard anyone claim it's a step backward.

 

See Tim Brown with two thumbs up.  There's apparently a small segment of society that thinks its somehow worse.

> Noon Concert by Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra in Fountain Square. A Week of These Noon Concerts Is an Annual Summer Event Orchestra Is Under the Green Tarp 09/1973 by The U.S. National Archives, on Flickr

 

Noon Concert by Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra in Fountain Square. A Week of These Noon Concerts Is an Annual Summer Event 09/1973 by The U.S. National Archives, on Flickr

 

Looking Down at Fountain Square During a Performance by the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra 09/1973 by The U.S. National Archives, on Flickr

 

D'aug Days (Pronounced Dog) Is a Month Long Presentation of All the Arts at Downtown Cincinnati's Immensely Popular Public Plaza, Fountain Square. Rock Band Entertains at Noon in Front of the Flagpole 08/1973 by The U.S. National Archives, on Flickr

 

Overhead Walkway Above Convention Way. Street Below Is Used for Truck Loading 08/1973 by The U.S. National Archives, on Flickr

 

Fountain Square Is Downtown Cincinnati's Popular Public Plaza. Overlooking the Square from an Office Window 08/1973 by The U.S. National Archives, on Flickr

 

Fountain Square in Downtown Cincinnati Is a Public Square That Works for the City and Its People in a Myriad of Ways: Fascination of Shifting Reflections in Chrome and Stone Sculpture 05/1973 by The U.S. National Archives, on Flickr

I think it was William Whyte who said Fountain Square was the, or one of the, best public space in the country. This was in reference to the 1970s version, and he is someone famous for critiquing public spaces. If it was tired by the early aughties, it was more a reflection of what had happened to the city center than a failure of Fountain Square as a quality public space. But I guess it is an interesting question whether a super-successful design in one era can be a failure 20+ years later, or if spatial design principles are more timeless than that.

 

I believe much of 3CDC's success with the square has been through hyping and programming. Nothing wrong with that, but to imply the old design was defective, I think, is inaccurate.

I think it was William Whyte who said Fountain Square was the, or one of the, best public space in the country. This was in reference to the 1970s version, and he is someone famous for critiquing public spaces. If it was tired by the early aughties, it was more a reflection of what had happened to the city center than a failure of Fountain Square as a quality public space. But I guess it is an interesting question whether a super-successful design in one era can be a failure 20+ years later, or if spatial design principles are more timeless than that.

 

I believe much of 3CDC's success with the square has been through hyping and programming. Nothing wrong with that, but to imply the old design was defective, I think, is inaccurate.

 

The old square "worked", because it had to.  There was no competition.  Downtown was certainly more bustling in the 80s than it is now, and certainly during its 1996-2008 nadir. 

 

The main problem with the old fountain square was the stage.  The new stage, by being "temporary", insinuates that there is a special event scheduled every day, and so gives the square a more festive mood.   

 

 

 

 

Wasn't the whole square redesign tied to rebuilding the deteriorated garage underneath?

 

I think the city saw that as an opportunity to redesign the square, remove the skywalks, and also get rid of the embarrassing yearly KKK rallies.

affirmative

They also did work on the fountain

Oh wow, Rabbit Hash!  Thank you for the pictures! 

 

I am in love with the steps from 5th and Vine and the materials of the old square are great.  I like the old placement of the flagpole as well.  I can see why William Whyte approved.  It seems like the largest improvement came from making the first floors of the 5/3 Garage and Center more accessible.  It seems the retail element is sorely lacking in the old square. 

 

I now completely understand John Schneider's statement made to Jim Tarbell.  "What kind of downtown are we building here -- a drive-through downtown or one that tends to honor pedestrians more?"  The old square looks absolutely well designed, but the new square is unquestionably better in my opinion.

 

My only concern is with the materials.  The old square looks like it held up well over its 40 year life.  I worry that the LED wall will look weathered very soon.  The stage also lacks cohesion with the rest of the square's design. 

 

Overall however, Fountain Square has become my living room.  I love grabbing a seat down there and enjoying my evenings.

 

I went to a concert at the Albee on a Thursday night in April of 74. Probably got out around 11. The square was pretty active & alive. I lived in Springfield then and it really surprised me. This was around the time Springfield argued that downtowns were dead & commenced to demolish theirs.

Horrific is a strong word. The old Fountain Square was a great space and a great design for the time. The new one is much better. You do not get to where we are today without the space that existed in the 1970's. When it was an esplanade it was really not a great public gathering space. What they did in the 1970's was make it more of a public square which promoted a public gathering. The 2006 renovation just enhanced that. Calling the old one horrific is a bit much.

 

I vastly prefer the original, tree-lined esplanade.  You can tell from the pictures how well it integrated into the urban fabric of Fifth Street.  The Fountain Square of my youth was a barren plateau with the fountain positioned for people to see while driving to work (I'm guessing that it was actually in its the original location, just raised).  Then there was that goofy bridge from the skywalk era and the cold black granite wall along Fifth in lieu of a sidewalk to remind everyone that pedestrians weren't the priority on the city's streets.  All of it just felt like Cincinnati didn't know what to do with the space.  The new version addressed most of these issues, but still doesn't feel as natural as the original did.

It's supposed to be a public square and the city leased it to 3CDC thus putting a public place into the hands of a private entity. They have scheduled a lot of activity and thus made it kind of 'forced' (?).

People have complained about these things but that's nothing to do with layout.

 

Good point.

Does anyone know what happened to the old Flower Stand that used to be on Fountain Square?  As I recall, one of the conditions of the City originally taking control of the Square was that it had to remain a public market space. In order to keep this condition, the city installed the old Flower Stand on the square and sold flowers once in a while.  Since the 3CDC renovation, the Flower Stand seems to have disappeared.  It was a beautiful stand, and I'd love to have it come back.

They do have a market on Fountain Square during the summer at noon on Tuesdays.  Maybe that made up for the requirement?

I believe this is it.

They do have a market on Fountain Square during the summer at noon on Tuesdays.  Maybe that made up for the requirement?

 

You're right.  I'm sure that satisfies the requirement.  It would be nice to see that flower stand back, though...

Fountain square will be a boondoggle.

 

What a waste of money

 

700wlw/chris smitherman/luken/the rest proven wrong once again.

Does anyone know what happened to the old Flower Stand that used to be on Fountain Square?  As I recall, one of the conditions of the City originally taking control of the Square was that it had to remain a public market space. In order to keep this condition, the city installed the old Flower Stand on the square and sold flowers once in a while.  Since the 3CDC renovation, the Flower Stand seems to have disappeared.  It was a beautiful stand, and I'd love to have it come back.

 

I researched this when I was a downtown tour guide.  The stand is in storage by the City. The legal question I believe the City currently believes it is up to interpretation and that flower stand did not have to be on the square.

They do have a market on Fountain Square during the summer at noon on Tuesdays.  Maybe that made up for the requirement?

 

You're right.  I'm sure that satisfies the requirement.  It would be nice to see that flower stand back, though...

 

I remember reading in a book somewhere that the city took the issue of the public market requirement to court a few years back and got the issue nullified, so as far as I've read, that particular quirk isn't on the books any more.

Interesting.  Thanks for the replies, everyone. Even if it is not a legal requirement, I still think they should bring the stand back out, as a nod to the Square's history.

If the picture above is of the stand being discussed, that would actually look amazing in OTR.  Maybe in Washington Park?

So if apartments or whatever development happens on top of fountain place what happens to the video screen?? I hope they don't get rid of it that would be horrible, is there a good spot to move it maybe on the north side above the tunnel to sixth street?

From everything I've heard the building would be set back from the edge which would allow for the screen to stay put.

He said something like, "But you won't be able to see it coming down Fifth Street anymore." And I said, "What kind of downtown are we building here -- a drive-through downtown or one that tends to honor pedestrians more?" I told him that the move was entirely consistent with the logic of taking down the skywalks and making the Square more pedestrian friendly.

 

You couldn't have put it much better than that.  The new FS design entices people to get out of their vehicles and be engaged on the public square.  Aside from the extra retail, events and video board...the actual design encourages increased activity as well.

 

I agree with the comments above, that being said I greatly preferred the island down the middle of 5th Street that I remember from the 1960's.  I really think the city of Cincinnati blew it when they allowed the 5th/3rd building to be constructed where it is.  A lovely public park in the middle of Downtown was destroyed for the sake of a rather plain high rise.

^I differ.  While the esplanade was lost, the public square that took its place is a much better space.  The esplanade would be isolated on a street like 5th in 2014.  Think Piatt Park on a much busier street.  FS is popularly known even to non-Cincinnatians as THE public space.

 

Gone forever are the buildings that did adorn the north side of 5th, most notably the Mabley and Carew and the Keith Theater.  So there is that.

 

I don't think 5/3 is that bad.  It seems to be handsome example of its style.