Okay, so somewhat related to the Shaker / CTS merger but not entirely.

 

It was cool at one point that Cleveland has a heavy rail, light rail, and now a BRT system.

 

But when APTA aggregates its ridership totals, each mode is listed separately and surprise, surprise, Cleveland comes out at or near the bottom of both rail modes and is average at BRT.  (See http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/FactBook/2016-APTA-Fact-Book.pdf)  Now some of that comes from Cleveland's uniquely bad timing of being large enough in the 1950s to justify a heavy rail system but too small in the 2000s for it to succeed.

 

I guess this may only fulfill a pet peeve of mine, but numbers do count when applying for government projects.  And economies of scale are important in purchasing equipment and training personnel.  While we can't do much with BRT unless we spend millions to stick rails in Euclid Ave, but are there at least any long range plans or proposals to use joint rail equipment and hopefully have a single combined light rail system?

 

Yes. BTW, Cleveland is not too small for rail transit. However our neglect of the rail system by not incentivizing station area development is a more compelling reason why ridership is so low. There's way too much vacant land around the rail system while we busily place low-skill manufacturing jobs in places like Glen Willow, Avon, Medina, etc., places that housing soon follows.

does anyone remember this?

 

what was Phase II of the waterfront line?

I vaguely remember that. It would have been a much better route. A shame they went with the route that was ultimately built.

Sixty years ago, #CLE leaders connected downtown's fortunes to the fate of a subway loop. https://t.co/BotIAFszJ5

 

This is definitely worth checking out.  Certainly Mark Souther, by his own self description, seems like an interesting, Renaissance guy.  He has a bit of a different take on Porter and his subway killing.  I'm not sure I can agree that, "... despite their failure, the subway plans also set the stage for a long series of efforts to use downtown to renew Cleveland’s image."  It wasn't about using downtown to renew Cleveland's image, but saving downtown ... and Cleveland, period, following Porter's heinous acts.  To this date, Cleveland is still trying to remake and revive downtown to counter Porter-ism... Bert Porter, in killing the subway and advancing freeways, malls and sprawl, set 'set the stage' for depopulating the city,  killing downtown business and retail further exacerbating racial, ethnic and demographic tensions in greater Cleveland by separating people from people, people from jobs, retail, etc.

 

That said, I think it's great Souther is the first (that I know of) that is undertaking a serious study of the 1950s subway fiasco and its ripple effects to the present, and for that "Believing in Cleveland" sounds like it's worth a look.

A newly released study has found Lorain County public transit system runs too infrequently and serves too little of the county, which has likely and partially caused massive declines in yearly ridership totals. @NOACA_MPO @WEWS @NEWSjordanv https://t.co/UUt2lQIoWg

This week marks the 61st anniversary of Cuyahoga County Engineer Albert Porter killing the downtown Cleveland subway plan. He was the worst. https://t.co/ISSWyqmvhp https://t.co/3YpwG5i43U

 

^Makes even more sense now... the Red Line could stop at the new Amazon center on Babbit / E. 260th.  I personally would LOVE that.  Not to mention all the jobs on E. 222 / St. Clair at Lincoln Electric.

Edited January 28, 20196 yr by Oldmanladyluck

20 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Has anyone in a position of authority ever attempted to explain why a neighboring state spends a billion annually (I am assuming that is per year) while we spend only 35 mil?  I would love to hear the rationale.

5 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Has anyone in a position of authority ever attempted to explain why a neighboring state spends a billion annually (I am assuming that is per year) while we spend only 35 mil?  I would love to hear the rationale.

 

It's funny because Pennsylvania rail advocates are constantly saying PA should bring their funding more in line with Massachusetts. It's a fair gripe, but man if they want to see how much worse it could be they should just come to Ohio. 

7 hours ago, Htsguy said:

Has anyone in a position of authority ever attempted to explain why a neighboring state spends a billion annually (I am assuming that is per year) while we spend only 35 mil?  I would love to hear the rationale.

 

There actually is a modest rationale. Transit agencies in Pennsylvania used to get very little if any local funding. Most if not all came from the state. That's changed in recent decades, with transit agencies in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia getting 10s of millions if not more from local sources. Smaller systems get nothing locally. Cleveland RTA gets a couple hundred million locally. But, in totality, Pittsburgh gets more. 

Hello Urban Ohio.  I stumbled upon this web site a couple months ago and it's my new favorite place on the internet.  Thank you to everyone who contributes!

 

I created a Google Map of proposed rail transit projects in Greater Cleveland that seemed to have had strong support, but were never built.  I started with the existing heavy and light rail plus the HealthLine.  Then I added the downtown subway, the Cleveland Heights Rapid extension, and the Green Line to 271 extension.  My focus was on projects that were "this close" but were killed for a variety of reasons.  As much as I would love to have the Dual Hub, I'm under the impression that it did not have enough support from the right people to make it happen.  By comparison, the downtown subway was a done deal that was only killed because of a corrupt politician.

 

If there were other projects that you think meet this criteria, I'll add them.  Perhaps the I-90 West Side extension from earlier in this thread?

 

Please check it out and let me know you comments.  Hopefully I did everything correctly - this is the first time I've created and shared a Google Map project.  Much of the source material is content that KJP has posted in various threads.  My contribution is putting into the Google Maps platform.

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QdwBIIwzrjApYrytwx8x5gkIHbngBlvr&usp=sharing

 

 

I've expanded the map that I mentioned above.  I added the I-90 West and Southeast / Garfield / Maple CTS Expansions that Ken described earlier in the thread.  I added the Lorain - Cleveland - Solon (- Mantua), Elyria - Cleveland - Lake County, and Cleveland - Akron - Canton (both via Hudson and via Kent) Commuter Rail Lines.  I added Ken's CVSR to downtown Cleveland proposal.  I added the Waterfront Expansion to create a downtown loop through Playhouse Square, CSU, St Vincent's hospital, and Tri-C Metro.  And I added the Dual Hub from downtown to University Circle (to Shaker Square).  (Much thanks to @KJP - he provided the source content and original maps for pretty much every past proposal that I included in this map.)

 

I was hoping the original map would generate at least a bit more discussion.  So I will ask some questions in the hopes of initiating said discussion:

 

- If the 1950s downtown subway loop had been built (as the voters of Cuyahoga county had mandated), does the Dual Hub later become reality?  The Subway Loop would mean that the most expensive part of the Dual Hub was already done, thus bringing the cost for the latter down.

- What impact do you think these projects would have had on their respective neighborhoods, given the realities of suburban flight from the 60s to the 90s? (Let's keep in mind that even cities with much better transportation infrastructure still experienced suburban flight.)

- Is it reasonable to assume that Porter killing the Downtown Subway is the biggest screw up on this list?  Assuming yes, which of these would you consider the next most damaging to have not happened?

 

I also have other related question, but they probably belong in the "Future Expansion" thread so I'm going to put them over there.
 

Anyway, take a look at my map at the link below, let me know your comments, and tell me if there's any other past proposals that I should add.  Also let me know if you have suggestions for working in Google My Maps.  I did learn that the maximum number of layers is 10.

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QdwBIIwzrjApYrytwx8x5gkIHbngBlvr&usp=sharing

 

 

 

 

The proposed cleveland heights rapid expansion included a detailed land use plan. It was terrible. It called for leveling much of Coventry and the surrounding high density, historic apartment buildings and replacing them with “modern” high rises. You can see an example of it: the musicians tower near Coventry. Had the rapid truly been expanded through cleveland heights, it would be more like the west blvd station (a sea of parking all around) than today’s little Italy station. We are probably lucky it was not built.

1 minute ago, CbusTransit said:

The proposed cleveland heights rapid expansion included a detailed land use plan. It was terrible. It called for leveling much of Coventry and the surrounding high density, historic apartment buildings and replacing them with “modern” high rises. You can see an example of it: the musicians tower near Coventry. Had the rapid truly been expanded through cleveland heights, it would be more like the west blvd station (a sea of parking all around) than today’s little Italy station. We are probably lucky it was not built.

 

That's a good point.  I keep getting caught up in how great it would be to have Cedar Fairmount and Coventry directly linked to downtown (and UC) via Rapid, but forgetting that ToD was a foreign concept at the time of this particular proposal.

20 hours ago, CbusTransit said:

The proposed cleveland heights rapid expansion included a detailed land use plan. It was terrible. It called for leveling much of Coventry and the surrounding high density, historic apartment buildings and replacing them with “modern” high rises. You can see an example of it: the musicians tower near Coventry. Had the rapid truly been expanded through cleveland heights, it would be more like the west blvd station (a sea of parking all around) than today’s little Italy station. We are probably lucky it was not built.

I wouldn’t describe the west blvd rapid station being surrounded by a sea of parking, at least due to the station’s existence. There’s minimal parking at this station and the platform itself is below grade and was part of the original Red Line that for the most part doesn’t have a lot of parking, if any at all. Even the end of the original line at w 117th doesn’t have a sea of parking.

Edited May 12, 20196 yr by Oxford19

19 hours ago, CbusTransit said:

The proposed cleveland heights rapid expansion included a detailed land use plan. It was terrible. It called for leveling much of Coventry and the surrounding high density, historic apartment buildings and replacing them with “modern” high rises. You can see an example of it: the musicians tower near Coventry. Had the rapid truly been expanded through cleveland heights, it would be more like the west blvd station (a sea of parking all around) than today’s little Italy station. We are probably lucky it was not built.

Also, sitting here in 2019 with Cleveland, Cleveland Hts and the region with stagnant to decline growth for x # of decades now, these plans from the past may have worked, who knows?  But seeing today’s continued decline and saying past plans that weren’t implemented would have been a disaster is misplaced.

 

now if Cleveland and the region had continued its up to mid 20th century growththen, yes, of course we could look back at these plans in 2019 and say they would have been a disaster and derailed the areas growth if they had been implemented.

Edited May 12, 20196 yr by Oxford19

On 4/28/2019 at 8:47 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

Hello Urban Ohio.  I stumbled upon this web site a couple months ago and it's my new favorite place on the internet.  Thank you to everyone who contributes!

 

I created a Google Map of proposed rail transit projects in Greater Cleveland that seemed to have had strong support, but were never built.  I started with the existing heavy and light rail plus the HealthLine.  Then I added the downtown subway, the Cleveland Heights Rapid extension, and the Green Line to 271 extension.  My focus was on projects that were "this close" but were killed for a variety of reasons.  As much as I would love to have the Dual Hub, I'm under the impression that it did not have enough support from the right people to make it happen.  By comparison, the downtown subway was a done deal that was only killed because of a corrupt politician.

 

If there were other projects that you think meet this criteria, I'll add them.  Perhaps the I-90 West Side extension from earlier in this thread?

 

Please check it out and let me know you comments.  Hopefully I did everything correctly - this is the first time I've created and shared a Google Map project.  Much of the source material is content that KJP has posted in various threads.  My contribution is putting into the Google Maps platform.

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QdwBIIwzrjApYrytwx8x5gkIHbngBlvr&usp=sharing

 

 

 

 

This is great - an interesting next version could be an overlay of existing lines to get a sense of the gaps. Great job! Also, KJP continues to prove himself a trove of information. The historical documents up the thread are really interesting.

 

34 minutes ago, ASP1984 said:

 

 

This is great - an interesting next version could be an overlay of existing lines to get a sense of the gaps. Great job! Also, KJP continues to prove himself a trove of information. The historical documents up the thread are really interesting.

 

 

The existing lines are there. Did you open the link or just look at the screen captures in my post? The Google Map tool is very interesting - you can turn individual layers on and off for better visibility. And I’ve added quite a few more lines since that first post. I’m thinking about adding the 2012 Blue Line extension proposals next.  

5 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

The existing lines are there. Did you open the link or just look at the screen captures in my post? The Google Map tool is very interesting - you can turn individual layers on and off for better visibility. And I’ve added quite a few more lines since that first post. I’m thinking about adding the 2012 Blue Line extension proposals next.  

 

Ahh nice! Admittedly I'm at work (as typical when perusing Urban Ohio haha) and didn't have the time to get fully into it, but looking forward to taking a look with more time! It will be fun to track developments all over town w/r/t your map - thanks for putting it together!

These Cleveland Church Vans Will Drive You to Work

Henry Pan - Next City - Oct. 8, 2021

 

 

"It’s hard to get around without a car in Northeastern Ohio. Decades of neglect by the federal and state governments, which continues to reduce its funding commitment, have resulted in endless cuts to transit service, which result in years of ridership decline. ... Enter the Cleveland Clergy Coalition and Pastor Aaron Phillips. Phillips’ Sure House Baptist Church had four vans that were only used on Sundays. Realizing that people can’t get to a well-paying job if they don’t have a way to get there, as well as being unable to afford a way to get around without a job, the coalition decided to put their vans to use, to connect Clevelanders with better-paying jobs in the suburbs. ... The church vans have connected 100 workers, who are mostly Black and live in Cleveland’s mid-to-south side, to well-paying manufacturing jobs in the suburbs."

 

 

 

Note that Akron Metro RTA is proposing hourly service to Greater Cleveland (Southgate) on two routes plus express service every 90 minutes during rush hours to downtown Cleveland.

https://www.reimagine-metro.com/

 

i havent seen megabus around, but good if its making a comeback. i just took a flix bus for the first time to binghamton last weekend. its a german company, but chinese guys run it and drive, at least here. its outside, there is no waiting area, but otherwise it was fine. it was about $60-70 r/t.

 

 

Megabus returns to Ohio, briefly, and other bus companies expand – but not in Cleveland

 

Updated: Mar. 13, 2023

By Susan Glaser, cleveland.com

 

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Megabus, the discount bus line that once ran numerous routes from Cleveland, made a brief return to Ohio earlier this year before shutting down service again.

 

Intercity bus travel in Ohio, meanwhile, continues to operate below pre-pandemic levels, although service is picking up throughout the Midwest, with new routes from companies including FlixBus, the German company that bought Greyhound in 2021.

 

 

more:

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2023/03/megabus-returns-to-ohio-briefly-and-other-bus-companies-expand-but-not-in-cleveland.html

6 hours ago, mrnyc said:

i havent seen megabus around, but good if its making a comeback. i just took a flix bus for the first time to binghamton last weekend. its a german company, but chinese guys run it and drive, at least here. its outside, there is no waiting area, but otherwise it was fine. it was about $60-70 r/t.

-cleveland.html

 

Binghamton? Just curious why anyone would go there on purpose. 

6 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

Binghamton? Just curious why anyone would go there on purpose. 

 

lol i know, right?

 

my old cle friend recently moved there after like 35yrs in brooklyn. his spouse is from there and they bought a house, which i hadn’t seen in person. she went away on business, so yeah i got a little tour and we hit up the bing’n nightlife lol.

 

so bingo is basically a bit smaller, similarly abandoned by big industry (in this case ibm), gap-toothed lorain with a very meh suny college and scattered older bones, albeit some are quite impressive. it has interesting stretches for sure, for example including a downtown warehouse area and beautiful old train station they are currently trying to hip up, but dont have any money to do much of anything with.

 

imo the very worst thing is the layout of both the town and college is a freakin mess.

 

positives are the hills are nice, downtown feels pretty big considering, and umm, my friend’s house is beautiful. also there are a few ok/good restaurants and a wegmans — oh and the bus station is big, its a very good one as those go. ha.

^just as an aside, academically speaking SUNY Binghamton is considered the crown jewel of the state university system. At least that's what people who went there are quick to tell you-lol

11 hours ago, eastvillagedon said:

^just as an aside, academically speaking SUNY Binghamton is considered the crown jewel of the state university system. At least that's what people who went there are quick to tell you-lol

 

it might be academically, who knows, but they have a beyond sh*tty campus. its isolated, they literally have nothing around and its built around a bus loop. no thanks.

Regarding the Health Line on Euclid - as I understand it, the buses originally had signal priority on Euclid and then the Jackson admin eventually removed signal priority due to complaints from car commuters. I learned of this via forum over the years so citation very needed and I might be misremembering, if so please correct me.

I was wondering whether anyone has heard anything about any potential plans to reinstate signal priority along Euclid to make the "BRT" a little more R again, since it sounds like there is less traffic due to remote work and there is a new admin now? Or whether that's even something on the city and/or RTA's radar?

2 minutes ago, gpodawund said:

Regarding the Health Line on Euclid - as I understand it, the buses originally had signal priority on Euclid and then the Jackson admin eventually removed signal priority due to complaints from car commuters. I learned of this via forum over the years so citation very needed and I might be misremembering, if so please correct me.

I was wondering whether anyone has heard anything about any potential plans to reinstate signal priority along Euclid to make the "BRT" a little more R again, since it sounds like there is less traffic due to remote work and there is a new admin now? Or whether that's even something on the city and/or RTA's radar?

They've also removed POP and now make everyone walk up to the fare box. Both of these have slowed the Health Line dramatically. 

they got rid of the POP? I was just on it and the signs at the station said it was a proof of payment route.

 

lol I just got in and sat down. my bad

 

 

Edited June 23, 20231 yr by Whipjacka

^The last time I was on the HealthLine (a few weeks ago) the bus driver had everyone come up front to pay. I hope htat POP has returned based on your post.

As I recall, the bus began running the day National City folded. Been cursed ever since. 

This is great, bringing Oberlin College more into the mix of Cleveland. In addition to Oberlin College-provided transit services to Hopkins Airport, on weekends, for students, there will now be direct services to Crocker Park, Lakewood, Ohio City, and University Circle. Of course, the service to Hopkins allowed connections to the RTA Red Line to Ohio City, Downtown, and University Circle, but having this new option (plus routings to Ohio City and Crocker Park) makes it even better, with more choices.

 

College Launches Free Transportation to Cleveland

https://oberlinreview.org/30701/news/college-launches-free-transportation-to-cleveland/

Oberlin for many decades ran the AOS, a fairly frequent transit bus route between the college and Hopkins Airport where riders could reach reach air service or rail transit service to the rest of the city. I recall that as many as a dozen round trips per day ran on Fridays and Sundays, and for several days at the start/end of semesters. Only about 2-5 round trips per day were offered on other days.